9 votes

What is Greed?

Whether you are liberal, conservative, libertarian, or none of the above, it is hard not to feel some sympathy for the "Occupiers." Even if do not agree with them on every issue, there is something very American about a grassroots movement to "fight the man" and protest the existing order. After all, that is how the united States of America were born. As with the Tea Party, it is refreshing to see a group of Americans objecting to something about the sad state of our republic, rather than indifferently accepting each new depridation like sheep awaiting the slaughter.

It is in this spirit that I take issue with one of the central themes of the OWS movement: the fight against "greed." Here is one area where I believe that the Occupiers are chasing a phantom. Greed is the government's favorite hobgoblin. Any politician with a bad record, skeleton's in his closet, or some other threat to his phoney baloney job can invoke this loosely defined vice and count on some level of support in his time of need (for votes). But what is greed and how can one fight it?

That is two questions and one cannot answer the second before resolving the first. I believe that if you asked any 10 people at random for their definition of greed, you would get 10 different answers. The first answer is usually "a desire to have more than one needs." However, this doesn't hold up very well. It is obvious that all people desire more than they need. Without accumulating more wealth than what is minimally needed for survival, no human being can read or write a book, create a work of art, or perform an act of charity. In fact, none of what we commonly call "culture" would be possible if human beings did not accumulate the excess wealth that affords them the leisure time to create art, literature, charitable organizations, or the other blessings of society.

To this objection, proponents of the "more than one needs" definition will immediately clarify. "No, I meant desiring far more than one needs." This clarification is just as problematic. How much is too much? Who sets the limit? At what point has one changed from being a hard worker to being "greedy?" Does that limit change from person to person? Is there a greed-o-meter out there that can set a dollar amount?

If one accepts this definition of greed, the solution to the problem is even murkier than the definition itself. Exactly what is to be done about the fact that "the 1% cares only about profits and not about the rest of society?" Should businesses take specific actions to cut their profits? What are those actions? The great majority of all new businesses fail within their first year, even when their sole motivation is profit. How is an entrepreneur to know for sure that his business will succeed at all, much less make "excessive" profits? What action can he take to counteract this? Should he cease to innovate, improve efficiencies, lower costs for consumers, improve the quality and features of his products, or employ people? These are the things that entrepreneurs do to make profits. Specifically which one is "bad" for the 99%?

To be fair, many of the comments on the OWS Demands page are more specific. As I've said before, they are definitely in the ball park when they finger the financial sector. However, comments like this one indicate that they haven't yet found their seats:

"The moneyed elite of our society has changed from being apart of the team that built an economy that raised the lives of all men with ample profits for themselves to a Gambler, who only wants to keep score through the accumulation of money, ever screaming for more profits for themselves at the expense of the people they pretend to serve."

This is a popular theme and not just among OWS supporters. The accusation that economic players in the financial sector took excessive risks that harmed people other than themselves is almost universally accepted, even by conservatives. Remember George W. Bush's famous pronouncement, "Wall Street got drunk."

However, the statement that the "gamblers" make "profits for themselves at the expense of the people they pretend to serve" just doesn't compute. Wall Street did take excessive risks during the boom that predeceded the bust. They did indeed take those risks in the hope of making greater profits. However, those profits would not have been made at the expense of the people they serve. The people they serve would have made those profits, too, on their own money. They voluntarily gave their money to the financial sector in the hopes that the "gamblers" would win them a return on their investment. Had all gone well, the 99% would have realized a huge return. It is fashionable to claim that financiers make money for producing nothing, but this isn't true. They make money from their ability to make sound investments and the willingness of other people to pay them to do if for them.

So what can be done about this problem? How do politicians or their constituents, who know nothing about investing (which is the whole reason that they give their money to financiers in the first place), make rules for how much risk investors are allowed to take? Do those rules apply to their own investments? Without some risk, there are no new businesses, no new jobs, no economic growth. How much risk is too much and who decides? The investors themselves or people who know nothing about investing? If investors are not allowed to take whatever risks they deem prudent and the result is that the economy in America dies, will the 99% take responsibility for that? We know that the politicians won't.

All of these seemingly insoluble dilemmas spring from the initial premise about greed. As long as greed is defined in terms of how much wealth one desires to accumulate, the conclusions that one draws from that premise will always be absurd. The amount of wealth one accumulates or desires to accumulate is immaterial. Instead, it is the means by which one wishes to acquire it that is vital.

If you change your definition of greed from "desiring more than one needs" to "desiring more than one has earned," then all of the contradictions and ambiguities disappear. Of course, we are immediately begging the question of how to define "earned," but that is a simple matter. One has earned wealth if one has acquired it without initiating the use of force against anyone else. Under this definition, money given to someone as a charitable contribution qualifies as earned just as profits made from selling products do. In this scenario, the amount of wealth one is able to accumulate has a natural limit - the amount that others are willing to pay for one's goods or services. This eliminates those troublesome questions about how much is too much in terms of profit.

To be greedy, then, is not the desire to accumulate more wealth than one needs, but the desire to accumulate more than others are willing to pay you for your services. For in order to do that, you must forcibly take the money that they would not willingly give. There is only one institution in all of society that can facilitate this legally: government.

Thus, if Person A accumulates $1 million by selling 100,000 units of his product at $10 per unit, he is not being greedy. He has made an equitable exchange with his fellow human beings: $1 million in products for $1 million in money. In this scenario, he and the 99% are square. Each has benefitted equally from the exchange. We know that he has earned his $1 million because the consumers set the price of his products with their voluntary decision to buy.

Now consider Person B, who wishes to accumulate that same $1 million through government employment, subsidies or privileges. No one voluntarily buys his product. The fact that the government has to either subsidize Person B or protect him from competition means that he is trying to sell something that people would not otherwise buy at his asking price. At best, Person B has sold something at a higher price than people are willing to pay. At worst he has sold something that his fellow humans don't want at all, but are forced to purchase by the government.

Either way, Person B is greedy - he wishes to accumulate wealth beyond what people are willing to pay him voluntarily. In other words, he is willing to commit armed theft against his neighbors. As you can see, Person B may be far more greedy in his desire for even $50,000 than Person A is in his desire for $100 million, if Person B plans to obtain it by force and Person A means to obtain it through voluntary exchange.

OWS is right to want to stamp out greed, but they aren't defining it correctly. Since Woodrow Wilson, progressives have been making the same fundamental error in failing to distinguish between legitimately acquired wealth and wealth acquired through government force. It is the latter that OWS should look to stamp out, rather than indiscriminately condemning anyone who becomes wealthy. The most effective way to fight greed by its true definition is to take the Occupation to Washington, D.C., where the power that the greedy utilize resides.

Imagine a world in which every individual has an equal chance to be a millionaire, but only if he offers his fellow individuals $1 million in benefits, with the 99% deciding for themselves how much they are willing to pay. That is a world without greed. That is what we used to call "freedom."

Tom Mullen is the author of A Return to Common Sense: Reawakening Liberty in the Inhabitants of America.

© Thomas Mullen 2011

 




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Its always the Other fellow who is greedy

Ralph Reiland – At each and every stop, in items large and small, the greedy hand of government has its sticky fingers in every pocket. With bread, a recent study by Price Waterhouse shows that 30 different taxes imposed on the production and sale of a loaf of bread account for 27 percent of the average retail price. Buy some new tires and it’s $36 on every $100 that goes to the taxman. On the price of a new car, an Americans for Tax Reform study shows that the total taxes reach 45 percent of the showroom sticker price. Add some gas and 54 percent of what you pay for a fill-up goes for 43 different federal, state and local taxes rather than to the oil producer and retailer. - Taxed to Death.

Here is top one percenter multi-millionaire Phil Donohue discussing "greed." Note the "anti"-greed Phil Donohue never volunteered to work for an average salary or anything less than the millions he earned. Mega Rich Donohue was never willing to redistribute his wealth and give up his millionaire lifestyle yet he was always willing and strongly advocated spending and redistributing other people's earning much less wealthy than him. So who is truly greedy? :

multi-millionaire Phil Donohue: When you see around the globe the maldistribution of wealth, the desperate plight of millions of people in underdeveloped countries. When you see so few haves and so many have-nots. When you see the greed and the concentration of power. Did you ever have a moment of doubt about capitalism? And whether greed is a good idea to run on?
Milton Friedman: Well first of all tell me, is there some society you know that doesn’t run on greed? You think Russia doesn’t run on greed? You think China doesn’t run on greed? What is greed? Of course none of us are greedy. It’s only the other fella that’s greedy. The world runs on individuals pursuing their separate interests. The greatest achievements of civilization have not come from government bureaus. Einstein didn’t construct his theory under order from a bureaucrat. Henry Ford didn’t revolutionize the automobile industry that way. In the only cases in which the masses have escaped from the kind of grinding poverty that you are talking about, the only cases in recorded history are where they have had capitalism and largely free trade. If you want to know where the masses are worst off, it’s exactly in the kind of societies that depart from that. So that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear, there is no alternative way, so far discovered, of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by a free enterprise system.
multi-millionaire Phil Donohue: Seems to reward not virtue as much as the ability to manipulate the system.
Milton Friedman: And what does reward virtue? You think the Communist commissar rewards virtue? You think a Hitler rewards virtue? Do you think… American presidents reward virtue? Do they choose their appointees on the basis of the virtue of the people appointed or on the basis of political clout? Is it really true that political self-interest is nobler somehow than economic self-interest? You know I think you are taking a lot of things for granted. And just tell me where in the world you find these angels that are going to organize society for us? Well, I don’t even trust you to do that. - Feb. 11, 1979

Let it not be said that we did nothing.-Ron Paul
Stand up for what you believe in, even if you stand alone.-Sophia Magdalena Scholl

Greed is irrelevant...

...when all initiatory violence, threats and theft are illegal.

Walter Williams explains it well here:

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams071101.asp

The virtues of Greed

Walter Williams is always excellent. Here he writes short commentaries on the virtues of greed: http://www.capitalismmagazine.com/culture/69-the-virtue-of-g...
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=2788

YOU CAN CALL IT GREED, selfishness or enlightened self-interest, but the bottom line is that it's these human motivations that get wonderful things done. … The true reason why we enjoy cars, steaks, and millions of other goods and services is because people care mostly about themselves. Now ask yourself: How much steak would New Yorkers have if it all depended on human love, kindness and feeling the pain of others?

and quoting Adam Smith, Williams writes,

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interests." Smith also said, "I have never known much good done by those who affected to trade for the public good."

And here is an excellent video of Walter Williams giving a speech that greed is the noblest of human motivations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK_-iVppgQs&feature=player_em...

Let it not be said that we did nothing.-Ron Paul
Stand up for what you believe in, even if you stand alone.-Sophia Magdalena Scholl

Thanks.

Thanks. I had never seen that article on Capitalism Magazine. It's excellent.

Thank you

Thank you for this. We need a better understanding of the meanings of greed and a better communication in discussing greed.

off the top of my head definition

The insatiable desire to enrich or otherwise indulge onesself, thus to gain strategic advantage over others as a result of that wealth.

It's questionable whether one can truly be 'greedy' without the desire for power. I have anarchist tendencies, but you just won't convince me that greed is a good thing. Greed is different than ambition. If greed is a positive trait (which I believe it is not), than do we justify criminality in search of satiating greedy instincts?

Visit http://www.ronpaul2012podcast.com/ for all recent Ron Paul interviews, speeches, debates, forums, panels, press conferences, news coverage, and Texas Straight Talk updates!

"Terrorism is the war of the poor, while war is the terrorism of the rich

I believe that INTEGRITY preceeds any problems of GREED

What do I mean? The answer is not curtailing those who become greedy or let it go wildly out of hand.

The answer is INTEGRITY, and simply voting people in office who have that character trait.

That is what went wrong with our country! As the HOLLYWOOD brainwashing machine put out a systematic degrading of our morals in this country, and as the DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION mirrored those goals, our cultural values & beliefs have taken a major hit. As a result, the dumbed down public continued to vote into office the cheaters and the liars.

ENOUGH!! We need to go back to our roots & vote people in office with INTEGRITY. Then, you won't have to worry about greed ruling the day in D.C.

nice article.. I think greed

is avoiding cost efficiency in the market place by replacing the market forces that protect local production by socializing losses and avoiding the liabilities side of the balance sheet.

greed comes with fear... fear of creative destruction, fear from becoming obsolete

so greed is about infinite growth out of profits and credit therefore competition reduced to monopolization and nationalization.

without greed there would be a equilibrium of human action in proportion to cost efficiency to return the market to equilibrium and liquidate mal-investment.

The role of a farmer, in Fukuoka's mind, is an observer, not an intervener, of the natural order in his/her particular landscape. How is that any different than Hayek in regards to Economics?

So only if you are a thief

are you considered greedy. Or if you play the lottery you are greedy. Your definition doesn't wash.
Greed is simply what you say it isn't. Greed is wanting more, when you already have more than you need or can possibly use. The idea that you are only greedy if you aquire your desire through dishonest means is rediculis.

How do you fix it? I know how but I wont say here because it would be fruitless but I will tell you this. If there are no limits places on people then we will end up slaves to one person or group of people. Oh, wait, we already are.

Problems.

Tom, as a matter of moral principle, I totally agree with your definition of "greed" as "desiring more than one has earned." Unfortunately, that is not the definition most people recognize. "Greed" in everyday usage means "one person having or desiring more of something than someone else thinks they ought to have or desire." "Greedy" is the word used by the envious to describe those they envy. Very often, people are called "greedy" by people who would like to see their property forcibly confiscated and "redistributed" to deserving folks like me, me, me! How's that for turning a definition on its head? You can see why the word is so popular with politicians, hm?

The problem with your essay is that it requires the redefinition of a commonly understood word. That's not a realistic expectation, is it?

Rather than quibbling over a definition that is already corrupted beyond recall, your essay contains the seeds of a different approach: I don't CARE how much somebody else has or desires. I don't CARE if they're "greedy." My only moral concern is whether or not they use coercion to get what they want from others. ("Government" is synonymous with "coercion" in this context.) Don't bother attacking or defending "greed" -- coercion is the enemy. And never forget that government is institutionalized coercion.

Interesting essay. Thank you.

Recommended reading: The Most Dangerous Superstition, http://www.larkenrose.com/store/34-books/2019-the-most-dange...

Great article, brother.

I was recently speaking with a Democrat friend of mine who was espousing increasing taxes on "the rich," and I pointed out to him that while he considers himself to be mightily struggling with his wife working and himself working and unable to afford to buy a house, I pointed out to him that since he and his wife BOTH have cars, and since he has three daughters, not a one whom has ever experienced a hungry day in their lives, and that all three of them are enjoying educational opportunities at the expense of others such as myself who have no children, and that none of his family has ever experienced anything less than what 99% of the people on the planet would consider "rich," then perhaps he should take some of his excess money and send it in to help fund the pet projects that he would have the government extort money from others to fund. It did not go over well, since he considers himself not to HAVE any excess money. Then I pointed out that if not for the taxes that he already pays, he perhaps WOULD have some excess money, and so would many other people. Once again, it did not go over well. Swell sounding ideas are one thing, but making them work is why we have enterprise.

Ayn Rand on Greed and Selfishness

Ayn Rand - A System of Selfish Greed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeJuySjCL5g

Ayn Rand - The Virtue Of Selfishness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-gMWWnsslw

Good post Tom.

Interesting videos

By nature, we have needs, wants and desires that may be considered "selfish" by some. If we don't take care of ourselves, who will take care of us? Who will take care of us better than we can take care of ourselves? Will I have more in life by being lazy, collecting food stamps and other government aid, or by producing for my own benefit?

The question though, I think in all this, is whether we are allowed to "volunteer" ourselves for the benefit of others, or are we "forced" to help others? I am all for voluntarism. But, let's say I am a little greedy. I need some money. I have an idea that will put Ron Paul in the White House. But I want to be paid for my brilliant idea. I have a decision to make: do I give my idea away for free to save the collective, or do I hold out till I get compensation for my brilliance?

If I hold out for money, and yet no one agrees to pay me for my brilliant idea, and I refuse to give away for free my brilliant idea, and Ron loses the election, am I morally wrong if mankind suffers because of my selfish decision?

"I support the Declaration of Independence and I interpret the Constitution."

Obligations

No, you wouldn't be wrong because you have no obligation to others.

Positive rights don't exist. No one is obligated to do something. They are only obligated not to do violence or theft onto others without consent.

So, if I have a brilliant idea...

...that could put Ron Paul in the White House, I have every right to hold out, until I am compensated for my idea? I ask, because many good minds have volunteered their time and ideas to his campaign. Would it be wrong of them to want compensation? I am assuming that there is nothing wrong with profiteering off of Ron Paul's campaign? Correct?

"I support the Declaration of Independence and I interpret the Constitution."

morality

So, if I have a brilliant idea that could put Ron Paul in the White House, I have every right to hold out, until I am compensated for my idea?

Yes. To believe otherwise means that I can use violence to force you to tell me your idea.

Would it be wrong of them to want compensation?

No, they can ask for compensation or try to figure out a way to make a profit.

So, in all honesty...

..there would be nothing wrong for all of the volunteers for Ron's campaign to ask for compensation for their time, efforts and ideas?

"I support the Declaration of Independence and I interpret the Constitution."

Yes

Right, nothing wrong to ask. Asking is not force.

The reason they are not asking for monetary compensation is because the positive feeling of helping Ron Paul is compensation enough.

Someone Understands Freedom

Hey, limlemon,

I read your comment here and your commments above it. You, limelemon, understand freedom. You're one of the few people I've read, even on the DP, who understands it.

I don't know why the majority of people in society, including scholarly people who host radio shows such Jefferson Hour's Jefferson portrayer Clay Jenkinson, and a solid number of DPers come up short in comprehending freedom in a fair number of instances and that defense underlines freedom or is its lead. Perhaps most DPers do understand freedom but have difficulty articulating what it is.

I'm left feeling erudites do know it but, yes, behave as though they don't. Regardless, you filled in the freedom argument well. You did it simply and clearly. I always enjoy your commentary, limelemon.

School's fine. Just don't let it get in the way of learning. -Me

Thanks for your kind words.

Thanks for your kind words. I learned from Walter Block how to apply the non-aggression principle in a consistent way.

This is where it all started for me 3 years ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dYNk0QGdBw

Thanks for this discussion,

Thanks for this discussion, limelemon. :)

School's fine. Just don't let it get in the way of learning. -Me

What is greed?

Greed: Take all you can get before someone else gets it. Humane: Take what you need and leave the rest. I know there are many ways to look at it. Some look at it from the world they live in. Some from the world they would like to see. Just a thought.

Define need

Define need

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

Things required

to live. Today tomorrow and the day after and the day after that and the day after.....

Define "live"

Define "live"

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

Not

dead and I want all that I can get.

"Take"?

Define "take".

resources in the world I live in.

For instance deer hunting on public land. I used to do a lot it. I know private land owners that wouldn't let people take all they can get. Most keep it all to them selves. And many of large land owners made their money by not producing but by gaming the system. There are no easy answers for me.

thank you . . .

bookmarking this--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Greed is the love of money.

Greed is the love of money. and the love of money is the root of ALL evil.

"and the truth shall make you free"
John 8:32

What if..

the root of money is evil and it makes people greedy.

what is money?

Money is the medium of exchange. It's a commodity.

What about barter? Is barter the root of all evil?

I'll say this again... The

I'll say this again... The LOVE of money...I did not say the use of money..and the LOVE of money is the root of all evil..

"and the truth shall make you free"
John 8:32

The love of money

Oh, so you're saying that obtaining or receiving money is the root of evil, not using or spending it.

Okay, give me an example of how loving to receive money leads to something evil.

If you love money that means you love to serve your fellow man, because that's the only way to obtain money, right?

For example, didn't Gates and Jobs serve society immensely? In return they received an immense amount of money.

The love of money being the root of all evil...

...is when money becomes an idol in your life. Obtaining and receiving more isn't wrong - it's the action that motivates you (your heart) that is wrong (i.e. idolatry).

That someone contributes greatly to society and benefits financially does not mean that the love of money doesn't exist. It may - or may not. Money being earned in a noble way can still be loved like an idol.

The amount of money one has does not necessarily determine whether one idolizes money or not (although if one is not of strong character, it can surely make it more difficult for a rich person)

root of evil?

So show me by a hypothetical example how the action that motivates someone (their heart), is wrong, and is the root of all evil.

I want to know why you believe that evil things happen as the result of this desire.

I say nothing evil results from loving money. This concept that money is evil is Marxist.

Evil is when one initiates violence, threats or theft on innocent people.

I think the comment is about

I think the comment is about the psychological lust for money.

The classical philosophical example is a rich guy driving his Ferrari on the road meets a guy who has been robbed and shot in the leg. If the Ferrari owner takes the man to the hospital, the seats in his car will be ruined from the blood stains. Is the man morally obligated to take the man in his car?

In the second scenario, there are no blood stains, but when they arrive at the hospital, it turns out the victim needs surgery to save his life; surgery he cannot afford. Does the rich man have a moral obligation to pay the money for the surgery?

They did a blind survey, attaching a cost of $5,000 to the surgery and the cost of cleaning the seats. The vast majority of responders said the rich man had the obligation to take the guy in his car, with many respondents saying you should threaten the driver with legal action for negligence if he didn't. But less than 15% said he had the obligation to pay for the surgery, with not even one respondent saying legal action should be threatened.

Even seeing the two situations side by side, I think most people can acknowledge that their gut tells them there is a difference.

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

Double posted.

NT

I personally love Milton

I personally love Milton Friedmans answer to what is greed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A

I don't really support the OWS people because I oppose the corporate welfare that we've been giving to failed institutions but the OWS people don't really oppose the corporate welfare, they would just want to get some of that money for themselves which to me is them just being greedy.

I work for a County Government in Florida and I've seen these OWS people outside some of the government buildings. Most of the signs I've seen are "Where's my job?" or "We the people need a bailout!".

OWS people don't even know how to throw trash into bins causing the City Government to have to spend money to have somebody clean up after these people. Wasting more money that they don't have.

Right on Uncle Milty!

Friedman was right on everything except what he is most famous for....monetary policy. He got the cause of the Great Depression wrong and was against a currency backed by gold. He liked a "little" inflation.

“The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.” --Albert Camus

Zero-sum fallacy

The reason many people view profits as something negative is because they believe that when one person accumulates wealth, they were only able to do so the expense of other people.

They believe that the money profits got distributed from needy people to rich people who don't need the money.

The fact is that in a free market, economics is not a zero-sum game.

Here John Stossel explains this fallacy.

And here's a good article on this.

Also, greed cannot have negative consequences on any significant scale when all initiations of violence, threats and theft is illegal.

Links

I found the Stossel clip where he explains the zero-sum fallacy -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48w1l9LxEeo#t=4m

Here is another one -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGkEziYbcJo#t=55s

And this is Walter Williams -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSco-xFnrpg

How does the "Free Market" stop someone...

...who is rich, from putting everyone out of business? If a billionaire moved to my county, and decides to put every small business,"out of business", what would stop them? The billionaire can provide a better product/service at a cheaper price; even take a loss, until the small business goes under. Someone may argue that the billionaire cannot keep this up indefinitely, but why not? Once you have driven everyone out of business you have control of the market.

This is exactly what Wal Mart has done to small businesses in the South and Midwest. Wal Mart came to my hometown and wiped out all the small "Ma and Pa" businesses by selling the same products cheaper. Now, the guy who owned the paint store on the Town-square, works in the paint department at Wal Mart for $8.00 an hour.

I can't speak for OWS, but I can speak from my own observation that "greed" is when someone is "unethical", even though they may not be violating the law. How can you stop that? You can't, and people want to be protected from unethical practices by the rich.

:"Also, greed cannot have negative consequences on any significant scale when all initiations of violence, threats and theft is illegal."

"I support the Declaration of Independence and I interpret the Constitution."

Government involvement = legal

The billionaire today can buy government to FORCE people to buy what they have.

A free market gives people choices, and their business succeeds based on it's own merits, not government subsidies or force through trade, as in NAFTA for one.

WE ARE GOING TO WIN!

How does the Free Market prevent government...

...from being bought? It is only by having the government, which has been "bought", make new laws forbidding the government from being "bought". Sounds like a "Catch-22" situation to me. No matter how you look at it, money corrupts.

The problem begins with the Constitution. The framers understood government corruption, and they should have put into the Constitution that bribery of politicians is punishable by death. If they had, maybe things would be different. It's funny how it is illegal to bribe a Supreme Court Justice, who only interprets the law, but it is totally legal to bribe a Congressman, who makes the law. We can thank our incomplete Constitution for that scenario.

"I support the Declaration of Independence and I interpret the Constitution."

Constitution

If the framers made bribery of politicians illegal, the government would just interpret bribery to mean something else to give themselves greater leeway.

No matter how the constitution were written, it would still not be followed today.

Whenever you have a monopoly on law, it's a conflict of interest. The government always interprets the meaning of the law in such a way as to grant themselves more power and narrowly interpret the people's rights.

The solution -- don't give one institution a monopoly on law.

Your question was - "how does the free market prevent the government from being bought?"

Whenever you have a government, you don't have a free market. Free markets can only exist when all initiations of violence, threats and theft is illegal.

I agree limelemon

Thank you

WE ARE GOING TO WIN!

I agree YumYum

I'm a bigger fan of the Bill of Rights than the Constitution; also, like your post below!

WE ARE GOING TO WIN!

Spooner

Have you read Lysander Spooner's No Treason; The Constitution of No Authority?

Maybe, it's not new

Lysander Spooner is an Englishman isn't he, likes to tell Americans what's wrong with America?

WE ARE GOING TO WIN!