17 votes

Has anybody flirted with the the idea of Sovereign 'citizenship'?

I am doing some research and have heard, that...

1. it is a myth
2. you just end up in jail
3. this is a right wing "kookie" idea to avoid taxes

While I am sure no one in their right mind would promote the idea of such a thing if it was going to bring harm to themselves or anyone else. The idea does seem like it may come with a lot of peril and strife if done, I live in a suburb in los angeles and dont know if i try to do something like this what consequence I may have to deal with if I execute the necessary actions to become a sovereign individual rather than a U.S citizen (employee) I wanted to ask my friends here at the DP what you all might think about this, or if you have been flirting with the idea yourself, any feedback is appreciated, thank you.



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Yes, but I'm not a lawyer and

Yes, but I'm not a lawyer and do not know how to speak like a lawyer who knows the law inside out like the back of his hand.

That guy in Montana was on to something, but eventually he said something wrong according to the law. He didn't play his hand perfectly, and got squashed probably because of some minute detail that he did or did not verbally perform in his own self defense.

60 Minutes did a piece on this subject of Sovereign Citizenship.

It is true.

Alfred Adask has been a Sovereign Citizen for 28 years.

His interview begins at about 5:40.


http://youtu.be/2F_pY47hE5U

Never be afraid to ask simple questions.

Name in upper case, AKA, the STRAWMAN

All the elite of our country, have filed a UCC1 and are the beneficiaries of their STRAWMAN. http://freedom-school.com/ is just the beginning of the education you will need to understand how it's all commercial. Your name on your state id and SS card are in all capital letters, ever asked why? Also anytime you go to ANY court proceedings look at your name on the court papers, all caps again, wow imagine that! Ever ask why? Fact is my friends, The FED bankrupted this country in 1933 and Roosevelt signed an executive order that made all citizens CHATTEL to our debt to the FED. This was when your birth certificate became transferred into a BOND through the SEC and then traded on the open market. Your NAME is a slave, and you the natural person have just been awoken to the ARTIFICIAL life you have been leading. Much Love, i'll see you when you get here.

Those who refuse to participate in politics end up being governed by their inferiors.

As Sovereign As Can Be

If you are interested in the topic, I recommend http://www.pacinlaw.org ... to a large degree (90%).

BUT ... do you understand what it is to be sovereign?

a: one possessing or held to possess supreme political power or sovereignty b: one that exercises supreme authority within a limited sphere c: an acknowledged leader.

Sovereign means the one who makes the laws of the *land*. If you don't own any land, you can't be sovereign, because you are living on someone elses land and come under their law.

--

THIS IS MY WRITING, so please do not tell me not to copy text from webpages ... I can copy my own writing if I so desire (this did happen on GodlikeProductions).

SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
2 US 419 (February 1794)
Chisholm v. Georgia
Chief Justice: JAY, JOHN
Argued: February 5, 1793 (1793 was a clerical error).
Decided: February 18, 1793 (1794 was the correct date).

'... at the Revolution, the sovereignty devolved on the people, and they are truly the sovereigns of the country, but they are sovereigns without subjects, and have none to govern but themselves; the citizens of America are equal as fellow citizens, and as joint tenants in the sovereignty ... Sovereignty is the right to govern; a nation or State sovereign is the person or persons in whom that resides. In Europe, the sovereignty is generally ascribed to the Prince; here, it rests with the people; there, the sovereign actually administers the government; here, never in a single instance; our Governors are the agents of the people, and, at most, stand in the same relation to their sovereign in which regents in Europe stand to their sovereigns. Their Princes have personal powers, dignities, and preeminences; our rulers have none but official; nor do they partake in the sovereignty otherwise, or in any other capacity, than as private citizens.'

DEFINITIONS:

REGENT: a person who governs a kingdom in the minority, absence, or disability of the sovereign.

POWER: ability to act or produce an effect : legal or official authority, capacity, or right : possession of control, authority, or influence over others : one having such power; specifically a sovereign state : a controlling group : a force of armed men : physical might : political control or influence.

DIGNITY: the quality or state of being worthy, honored, or esteemed : high rank, office, or position : a legal title of nobility or honor.

PREEMINENCE: the quality or state of being preeminent : superiority.

OFFICIAL: one who holds or is invested with an office : officer one who administers the rules of a game or sport especially as a referee or umpire.

OFFICE: a special duty, charge, or position conferred by an exercise of governmental authority and for a public purpose.

--

John Jay was a Founder, author of Federalist Papers, Governor of NY, and 1st supreme court justice (among many other things). So, he knew what he was talking about.

Can you understand what he is saying above? We have strayed SO FAR from our origins, that it defies comprehension. If you are interested in the subject, you should read other posts I have made, because nobody - and I mean virtually NOBODY understands the foundation of the USA. Not even Ron Paul supporters. America meant LANDOWNERS. END OF STORY.

No landowners? No America. No Constitution. No founding principals.

SOVEREIGN MEANS:

Freedom = Independence = PersonalResponsibility = Landowners = Abundance = Wealth = FreeMarket = SoundMoney = Peace ...

SUBJECT MEANS:

Slavery = Dependence = PersonalIrresponsibility = Landleasors = Depravity = Poverty = Socialism = FiatMoney = Strife ...

IF YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND THAT - THEN FORGET EVERYTHING, and kiss your masters boots and pray that he sets his chains lightly upon you, because that is the best you can do.

Despite what anyone else says or blames, this country went to hell when non-landowners were given rights to elect officials, because from that point on, the landless dependents used that power to steal private lands (via property taxes and corporations) to support their own selfish needs, which was the root of all evils that followed (listed above under SUBJECT MEANS ...).

IF YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND THAT - THEN FORGET EVERYTHING, and kiss your masters boots and pray that he sets his chains lightly upon you, because that is the best you can do.

You can't pick and choose from both equations above. You either choose one set, or the other. Any mix is just a means to one of the ends (typically, historically, the enslavement end). Play with the equations in your mind, and see how they are all codependent, like links in a chain.

I wish my words would go down in history, but I say with the strongest intent and almost 2 decades of serious law/law-history studies/practise: THERE WILL BE NO FREEDOM, NO CONSTITUTIONAL GOVERNMENT, NO RON PAUL (or whoever) IN A NATION OF LANDLESS DEPENDENTS. Freedom may be popular, but dependency is MORE POPULAR. And anyone that is not a landowner IS A DEPENDENT. And I don't care if you think otherwise, you are a dependent on the system, and you must engage in its contracts, and do what it tells you to do, or suffer its punishments mercilessly.

Why? Simply, because you have no other choice. You can't take care of yourself, and your parents didn't provide any land for you so you could take care of yourself. They just made babies to dump onto the concrete for the man-made totalitarian system to provide for. So there you are, living on cement, wishing you could be free like the rest of nature, but it's only a dream, because you are living on concrete and 100% dependent on the man-made totalitarian systems for all your needs in life.

At this time, a free-market would kill a majority of the population quickly. Just think, less that 1% of the population is providing food for 99%, and most of that is corporate-owned agriculture. Without government theft/subsidies/socialism, food prices would be so high, only a very few could afford to eat. A private farmer doesn't NEED to sell anything, and in a free-market, just imagine what 1 farmer could charge for every 99 hungry mouths when he really doesn't need anything from them.

You can't drink water without paying the man-made totalitarian system. You can't eat without paying the man-made totalitarian system. You can't shit without paying the man-made totalitarian system. You don't know how to care for your teeth without paying the man-made totalitarian system. Maybe you can't even cut your hair without paying the man-made totalitarian system. And probably you can't take care of your health without paying the man-made totalitarian system.

And you want to be sovereign?

I live about as close to being sovereign as possible. The only interaction I have with the man-made totalitarian system is paying property tax. I have no licenses, ID's, etc. Yes, you can get close to being sovereign, but you better find a way to pay property taxes and live mostly off the land. No, you can't be sovereign as was intended, as stated by John Jay. And things will only get worse as we populate ourselves endlessly into urban=dependent environments.

And the only way out is NOT Ron Paul, but becoming a country of MOSTLY landowners, and revoking the rights of non-landowners to elect officials. That is the ONLY WAY TO PRESERVE FREEDOM AND A HEALTHY LAND FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS. Yes, that means suffering and/or even death for millions, but that suffering and death is already occurring and will increase regardless. There is no more land and water for "mass agriculture", and the land and water already in use is deteriorating. There is not increasing wildlife/game, and already all deer east of the Mississippi went extinct in the 1920's during the Great Depression. We already populated ourselves into servitude to the system, and there is no way out with increasing population.

It is not THEY who did it, WE did it to ourselves, because we were shitheads, and didn't care to be good stewards of our private lands, providers for our children, and defensive of our dejure government. I am not saying there is no place for urban industrial environments and progress ... I only say what I already said. Nothing wrong with a genius going to the city to do some great work, nothing wrong with those incapable of landownership working in a factory assembling things. It's only wrong and dangerous to humanity when they become the majority and the praise of society.

Nystrom

Can you shut this thread down, The Federali's have plenty of ammo now to continue calling "Sovereigns" terrorists.

No need to add fuel to the fire;)

And yes, like I have noticed on Yahoo and Political articles, propaganda "BOTS" are disseminating and provoking written violent/terrorist remarks.

No need to add fuel to the fire;)

To you government agents, Please stop being a drain on the economy. Get out of "GOV'T" and do something productive. ADD to the GDP and not take away. Last statistics I heard was that "Law Enforcement" gets a 5 % budget increase YOY. Tell me that is not wrong. Higher than "Gov Inflation Figures".
Tell your self that monitoring, spending 100's of man hours because someone is "SUSPECT" then following, by a million or 2 of court proceedings in order to hurt the "SUSPECT" for what, 30k, 100k. So spend 4 million, to get 100k, and send someone to jail. Oh, then you spend 40-60k a year incarcerating the "SUSPECT". You are the Criminals. YOU are not making the SUSPECT suffer. You are making the TAXPAYERS SUFFER. 4 million, to gain 0 in revenue. Sounds like a deal to me. Yet you let Corzine walk to the tune of what 2 billion dollars gone missing.

Freedom may be worth searching for.

I have given up on my fellow Americans, (not DPers) as I will not shed one more calorie trying to awaken anyone else who is not a critical thinker and does not have the inherent feeling that something is wrong.

There is no "We the People"

Without Sovereign Citizens. There is no Repubic without We the People. Learn before you post.

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." ~ Albert Einstein

Out of curiosity,

I had a plus one on there, then back to neutral.

To the person who downgraded me, can they please explain why?

a. Your a gov't agent and you find this thread is great source of "intel" and do not appreciate me trying to close this thread?

B. Your a gov't agent and you find what I said thought provoking, and realize what a total FRAUDULENT waste of resources and tax payer money you are?

OR
C. please fill in the blank. ;)

Edit: SO There is 2 Gov't agents that refuse to answer this question! My original posting now had 1 pos, now 1 neg. You gov't goons have to get your sh t together and not step on each other toes trying to down vote me without explanation;)

up urs

Freedom may be worth searching for.

I have given up on my fellow Americans, (not DPers) as I will not shed one more calorie trying to awaken anyone else who is not a critical thinker and does not have the inherent feeling that something is wrong.

Imagine a place

Where the majority of people are all slaves and most of the rest are slave masters, then you walk in one day and proclaim youself to be a sovereign free human being by birth right. Well the slaves look at you like your out of your mind, and the slave masters look at you as a huge threat to their power. Now ask yourself is it better to blend in as a slave or stand out as a free man. I say enlightened disengagment be free but move in and out without being noticed, spread the message and example of freedom, avoid confrontaton with supperior and dangerous powers. Do not JOB yourself out as a slave no more, If you earn less than the amount they allow before they start strong arming you with immoral extorted theft called tax you can avoid that trap. Garden trade work for work, barter stay local, gorrilla garden, walk, ride bycyle. I dont see the point of playing games with liars theives and murders you will most cases end up on the wrong end of things no matter what tricky language or paper work. Look you need not permission to be free, just live a free life no matter how hard, be self reliant. If I cant do it it is not worth doing and I can do anything that any man can do.

sovereign

thanks...

i prefer lower case letters too...

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they attack you, then you win!"
GANDHI

"The belief is worthless if the fear of social and physical punishment overrides the belief."

There's no way to magically

There's no way to magically file any special papers and be exempt from most of the laws when the government itself no longer follows the law.

You know

In my path of enlightenment, I went to the SS office. There was a baby pamphlet. In that pamphlet, it said getting your child a SSN was completely VOLUNTARY. It was in bold letters. I said WOW. So I turned to the clerk and asked her, here, it shows it's voluntary, so how do you UNVOLUNTEER. Where is the form?
She said, "There is no form" I laughed, of course not. How can you expect me an adult to honor a contract that my parents enslaved me to. So I got a bug up my butt one day, decided to call the SSN office using my cell phone, asked them how can I UNVOLUNTEER? After about 5 transfers to their superiors, I got to a person, She stated, Well, there is a way to get exemptions for people for religious reasons. I told her, that I demand my freedom, and I would not like to pay the tax to the SS admin. So after she said that the tax issue cannot be resolved between us, and its an IRS issue, also not getting sufficient answers from her, I asked, so who is your superior. She said, "The President" I was like, well, he can't really help me now can he? she said NO probably not.

I am withholding certain aspects/topics of the story to be used in my defense, if ever need be. They will never be disclosed on the internet, nor to others that are not personal friends.

Freedom may be worth searching for.

I have given up on my fellow Americans, (not DPers) as I will not shed one more calorie trying to awaken anyone else who is not a critical thinker and does not have the inherent feeling that something is wrong.

I'm Amish! At least, I am

I'm Amish! At least, I am now!

Explain?

Just without divulging tooo much that can hurt you in a court of law.

Because if I am typing the Gov't is listening.

Freedom may be worth searching for.

I have given up on my fellow Americans, (not DPers) as I will not shed one more calorie trying to awaken anyone else who is not a critical thinker and does not have the inherent feeling that something is wrong.

2 kinds of law...

5 minute Utube video...
"Jordan Maxwell two kinds of law"

If you are Sovereign

then why do you need citizenship?

Not to sound like a negative nancy

And by all means, if you find a way to be more free than I say do it. But "Sovereign citizenship" is an oxymoron.

Oxymoron?

Our failed educational system :) "Sovereign citizen" is NOT an oxymoron, though I hear these kind of things endlessly on "patriot radio" and in "patriot writings".

Citizenship may be sovereign (as in the citizenship of one of the several states) or not (as in federal citizenship).

Sovereign is merely being used as an adjective in that sense. Just because a sovereign may be a citizen = "allegiance/devotion/loyalty to a political unit" like one of the several states doesn't mean they are a subject of it.

So, it is not an oxymoron at all. A citizen may be a subject or a sovereign.

I believe it could be real

but there are no rules in this country anymore. NDAA pretty much puts a nail in Sovereign Citizenship in my opinion.

Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must. like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.-Thomas Paine

The R3volution requires action, not observation!!!!

That's just the thing...

People think that Obama violated the constitution with the NDAA. I point your attention to when Roosevelt was pushing the HJR 192 and the trading with the enemies act.

In one meeting the obvious issue of "treason" was brought up. They had to set things up very carefully in order to avoid being guilty of treason.

The NDAA does not violate the constitution - put that in your pipe and smoke it. You consented to being "chattle property" by the three forms I mentioned below.

"U.S. citizens" do not have "constitutionally guaranteed rights."

NDAA is for stupid public servants who don't know the law and for those giving the orders that do not want these facts brought into a courtroom and put on any public record.

NDAA is to scare you out of securing your Liberty.

I say - I'd rather be dead then live as a slave. Unfortunate that so many Americans would rather be slaves then dead.

NDAA + Sovereigns

I haven't read the NDAA, but from what I expect and have heard, portions apply to "US citizens" = 14th amendment citizen = federal citizen = federal property = federal subject.

This is NOT applicable to a citizen of one of the several states that is not contracted into federal citizenship (by means of applying for benefits, like SS).

So, this negative ranking only shows that people don't have a clue. They give + to the wrong ideas, and - to the correct ideas.

I've read your comments,

I've read your comments, however, you are understating or just misinforming people about this whole concept. If a Police Office, or Judge does not recognize your sovereignty then you are not sovereign.

You say, that people signed all these documents making them chattle and therefore they are not sovereign. You are forgetting something, or you just don't know about it, and that is -the Amish didn't sign any of that paperwork -they do not have driver's licenses, the do not have SS numbers, they don't have any documentation other than a piece of paper stating that they were born, and no it is not a State Birth Certificate either. However, they still get arrested, fined, and imprisoned if they are sentenced.

The whole argument about sovereignty rests on 'others' recognizing your sovereignty; when they do not, then you are just a normal citizen or an illegal alien. For you have no way of defending your sovereignty, other than the courtroom; but this requires the judge to recognize your sovereignty. If the judge does not recognize your sovereignty then guess what; you are not sovereign, because you cannot defend your sovereignty any other way.

Recognition of Sovereignty

I disagree 10,000% - you say that sovereignty depends on its recognition by others - you couldn't be more wrong.

Sovereignty is what you are born with in one of the several states, and we grant a limited delegation of our authority to a Constitution for government to exercise the authority of any one man as a collective force for purposes of our own safety and justice - and those that do not want to live under such law are "outlaws". When govt usurps more authority than it was ever granted, especially by fraudulent means, regardless of how many people are ignorant or brainwashed, the status of ones sovereignty remains unchanged. All criminals pose a challenge to sovereignty - but that doesn't deny it. What things come down to is not a matter of sovereignty, but physical power.

And we have made ourselves physically powerless by becoming landless fearful dependents, making the govt's power thrive, until it became seemingly more powerful than any of us. From a Sheriff to SWAT teams with tanks and helicopters and hgih explosives that we are not allowed to have. And we lust in that kind of govt, because it makes us feel very "safe".

Now, we are not ruled by authority so much as with brute physical power. We only lose our sovereignty when we relinquish it. Just like any war between a sovereign and a challenger - it ain't over until the sovereign says "ok, you win, I quit".

that was the first thing that came to my mind!

NDAA.

"We don't care who you are. We'll come. We'll put a black sack over your head. And drag you off to nowhere."

You're right, we're totally

You're right, we're totally lawless now. Anything goes if you're with the guvmint. I was born sovereign, that's all that matters to me.

"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere".
--Voltaire

It's hard not to be a menace to society when half the population is happy on their knees. - unknown

Born sovereign ey?

Could you feed yourself, clothe yourself... and STAND on your own two feet in a court room?

What is this ‘thing’ called

What is this ‘thing’ called self-government? What makes it so unique?

For starters, the United States of America is the first nation ever created that placed the major political force and the hope and trust for it's future success in the hearts, minds and hands of it's citizens.

The simple but powerful wording of the Constitution's preamble reads: "We, the people of the United States...do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." What could be more plain? It's our country.

We Americans hold the singularly unique distinction of being the supreme sovereigns; ultimately responsible for the suborning and constituting of it's laws, rules and regulations; with the founding principle “...That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...” as articulated in the Declaration of Independence.

Logic dictates that: Wrong action has to lead to wrong results; and right action has to lead to right results. Period. No exceptions.

Power Struggle over the facts

Anyone can read History within their power to do so.

I suggest Trial by Jury, an essay, by Lysander Spooner, for example.

America, and the expressions written down in Common Sense, by Thomas Paine, and The Declaration of Independence, by Thomas Jefferson, and finally a speech by Patrick Henry, recorded for all to read if anyone cares to read it, in opposition to ratification of the move to create a Monarchy or Consolidated Government, or all powerful Nation State, here in America, is, America is, an aggregate phenomenon resulting from all that we Americans have done, do now, and will do in the future, including that chore of learning from history.

In Trial by Jury, the reader can find, an example of a significant move toward Liberty, whereby an offer (that could not be refused) was given to King John, by The Barons, and that offer was Magna Carta, including the legal transfer of all power from the King to every member of every Jury who would then command veto power over any law.

This may be insignificant news to some, it was not understood to be insignificant to the Dictator in chief at the time.

Today, it seems, many Americans are brain washed into a belief in their own state of being exceptional, having the power to torture, with impunity, the power to mass murder at will, without recourse, and the power to spend all the wealth produced by everyone on earth, and spend it on the work required to keep that power.

Hubris is not new.

Joe

In response to your "cons"

1. it is a myth
2. you just end up in jail
3. this is a right wing "kookie" idea to avoid taxes

1) It is definitely not a myth, having myself interacted with many public servants and judging their reactions, there is definitely a basis in law for being FREE.

2) You end up in jail if you screw up. Keep in mind what our founders put on the line when they decided to declare their independence. The sovereign educational movement has definitely been a work in progress. Those willing to stick their necks out are owed a debt of gratitude by those not willing to do so. Case in point: Click the "king of your castle" link in my signature - it will lead you to the latest (quite awesome) information just now being revealed by a tireless researcher called "Robb Ryder"

3) Taxation is voluntary. That's a fact. You do not have to "avoid" taxation, you simply opt-out just like you opted-in by sending in your last tax form.

We may be a threat...

...but we're only a threat of lawful recourse if anyone violates our rights. It is important to remember that our Declaration Independence makes us Kings and Queens. The constitution is rules for the government. If government starts operating outside the constitution it starts violating RIGHTS (not government granted privileges).

Sovereigns study and have a firm grasp of the law and do not utilize the services of an "Attorney AT law" when in a court room and in fact most matters of law are handled by our own pen and notarized and certified through administrative procedure.

What you must understand when starting down this road is that you have volunteered for servitude via your birth certificate, SS5 form (social security - accepting a state granted privilege in return for surrendering rights) and your driver license application (which evidences you acting in commerce and therefore subject to statutory regulations of all employees of that corporation (US Inc).

This servitude represents millions of dollars per individual to banking institutions and government bureaucrats. You are essentially saying "I'm going to reduce government/banking structure funding by millions of dollars by declaring my sovereignty." Like most if not all problems we are facing this one is also a financial issue.

Being "sovereign" is also about honoring the contracts you agree with and being competent enough to void the ones which surrender your rights without giving you full knowledge and disclosure of the terms.

If someone said "Sign this and you sign away all your rights" would you sign it? No of course not, yet they can write text into these statutory acts and PRESUME that you have done your due-diligence and are fully informed.

When you say "Yes I understand" when in court by the way that means you are agreeing to stand under the charges.

@Desert Rat - OK, I've never

@Desert Rat - OK, I've never heard the NEVER call 911 statement. Why? I mean, if my husband is having a heart attack I shouldn't call 911? Confused...

Never call 911

The cops are looking for a reason to arrest you. A heart attack is another matter. Stay away from the Cops on Sanibel. There are especially nasty!

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." ~ Albert Einstein