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Ron Paul, Zionist

From The Atlantic - snip:

There are good reason to include Ron Paul [in tomorrow's Republican Jewish Coalition beauty contest]. He is, in one sense, a true Zionist, a believer in two core values of the Jewish liberation movement: Jewish independence and Jewish self-reliance. Independence is self-explanatory; self-reliance, in the context of national defense, holds that the Jewish state shouldn't seek the help of foreign soldiers to defend it.

I was struck in the foreign policy debate by something Rick Perry said, when asked about a looming confrontation between Iran and Israel: "(I)f we're going to be serious about saving Israel, we better get serious about Syria and Iran, and we better get serious right now."

"Saving Israel" should ideally be Israel's job...

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I've been to Israel many

I've been to Israel many times because I have family living there and I can tell you that many of the people living there are against the actions of their government. There are protests all the time and soldiers committing acts of civil disobedience all the time... You just won't hear about it here on the news.

Many Israelis understand that their politicians are crazy just like we believe that our politicians are crazy.

And by the way the word "Zionism" is just another way of saying "patriotism" in Israel... Period.

Many Israelis call themselves "Zionists" just like many Americans call themselves "patriots". Two different words, but they mean the same thing.

Yes, but its all a matter of semantics.

If we say "zionist" simply means patriot, then the true zionists are those Jews that oppose the Zionism that emanates from the Rothschild dynasty (and there are plenty who do). One zionism vs. another.

But the Zionist network that has made itself the Creditor of the world has certainly hijacked the term and most people understand Zionism today to be more associated with Likud and the Mossad than to the citizens of Israel.

The ones who are members of these organizations are in no way patriotic.

John F

"The Israel Lobby" by John

"The Israel Lobby" by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt is a great read.

I wasted my time on the response below . . .--

the fact is that if *we* could set aside collectivism, there wouldn't even be a need for this discussion.

"The Jews" and Israel, as if they are one and the same and there are no dissenters, no voices calling for a better way, etc., etc.--

as if there are no Jewish Israelis in Israeli prisons for protesting what has happened in Gaza . . .--

as if--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

here *we* go with the "Z" word again--

all right, first--

as I chuckle, because I'm trying to keep this light--

Though Zion was mentioned in the Old Testament, many Chrisians have a "Zion" concept that has NOTHING to do with warmongering and very little to do with 'place'--

that has to do with a place *we* will dwell in peace and safety--

it's been corrupted. The unfortunate problem here is that there are MANY Jews who struggle with Israel and with "Zionism" and with this 'right to choose to govern themselves', because they do not believe that it is happening; *they* (the Jews who disagree with this faux Zionism) don't believe *they* are represented at all, and they have been marginalized by the media, by other Jews and by governments around the world. They simply don't believe what other Jews have accepted and what most of the world has accepted as "the one way"--

so . . . most people have to pretend they don't exist.

Fact is, THOSE Jews are well-educated, have large families, are religious, and are . . . peaceful.

So, who is going to 'win' eventually? The Jews who don't believe in war and who have children--

they will have the last laugh as the rest of the world worries about the "Jews" being able to 'self-determine'--

For me, I am with the Torah Jews, because, frankly, they believe in peace. God bless 'em.

I suppose Dr. Paul hasn't met many of them, but much of what these Torah Jews say agrees with what Dr. Paul says--

But what does the world do with Israel. He/she/the nation exists; it is there, even though many of her citizens aren't the happiest campers--

so . . . let these people determine their own future and not the demogogues who mirror the same sorts of corruptions as the corrupt leaders in the halls of congress and the bureaus of the U.S.A.

Let the Israeli PEOPLE decide--not their 'bought and paid for' (by who cares whom) 'leaders'--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

This "Israel" is just another theater for elite investors

It's not really Israel.

It's not really for Jews...at least, not for Torah Jews (real Jews).

Thus, it's not really Zionism.

Frankly, this war is not really about terrorism.

It's all about some global elitists making a working class investment in the middle east...and protecting that investment through force. What force? The US military. That's right, US leaders allow the US military to be used as mercs...once again.

I didn't mean to imply that Dr. Paul doesn't know . . .

any very good people who happen to be Jewish. I have no doubt of it. I just assume they are more 'mainstream'; they are probably good American citizens who value that over any other country in the middle east but aren't so vocal about it--

those who are vocal about peace and questioning Israel's behavior probably don't come into Dr. Paul's space as often--

though I could be wrong. Noam Chomsky certainly is pro-peace and certainly questions Israel, and I believe he respects Dr. Paul, but I don't think he and Ron Paul have spent much time together--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

I agree--

.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

i wish more jews would speak out for paul

but the fact is they won't, for obvious fear of ending up on a pike by their neighbors.

there are quite a few on DP alone--

Now and again someone speaks up, "I'm Jewish, and I . . . like Dr. Paul AND his foreign policy"--

I think that most DPers and most people who consider themselves Jews who value true freedom and who respect Dr. Paul don't want to be collectivized any more than any of the rest of *us*--

!

I don't really like being lumped with other Christians--:/

and yet I am one. Dichotomy. Oxymoron(ic)--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Feh, no one would dare put me

Feh, no one would dare put me on a pike. I'm the king of the Jews and Supreme Kohen! If I endorse him, he's got the Jewish vote, or else I'll declare them herem! My loyal subjects would not dare give up their benefits, especially the jokes!

Zionism and freedom of action

If Israel did not receive American assistance there might be some increased freedom to act without American political pressure, but that freedom would not be infinite. The Israeli government has a right to make strategic choices about how to deal with Arabs and Iranians but those choices are limited to things which are are legally and morally permissible for governments to do. For example, an Israeli government that rejected all foreign aid would not acquire a right to send Palestinians to concentration camps. Genocide is illegal and immoral whether you take aid or not. An Israeli government that chose to go to war with Iran would be obligated to prove that its actions were in self defense and that nothing short of war would be adequate for the purpose of self defense.

When it comes to dealing with the Palestinians there are only a few major options that fall within the realm of what is acceptable.

One of these is called the "one state solution" in which Israel would get to keep the maximum amount of territory by annexing the entire West Bank but would have to grant Israeli citizenship to all of the Arabs living in such territory. A likely consequence of this is that Israel would eventually cease to be a Jewish majority country.

The second choice is called the "two state solution" in which Israel gives up the West Bank and Gaza and allows the Palestinians to have an independent state. The principal obstacle to this is that for the last several decades the Israeli government has been aggressively building settlements for the purpose of establishing a large Jewish population on land which would need to be part of a viable Palestinian state. It is Netanyahu's refusal to stop building settlements that has caused the breakdown in negotiations and the decision by the Palestinian Authority to go to the United Nations to demand recognition as a state. If Obama were a competent leader and had some political fortitude he would inform the Israelis that continuing current policy would result in a cutoff of American taxpayer assistance. There is no reason why we should be subsidizing things that are not in our interests. Then again, if Obama were doing his job properly, I wouldn't need Ron Paul.

There are some pessimists who think it is already too late for a two state solution and that the Israeli settlement policy has proceeded so far that it is no longer possible to construct a viable Palestinian state on the land that remains. If this is true, then the Israelis will eventually be forced to live with a one state solution.

That is a choice they have a right to make but it is not one that we should be asked to pay for.

ecorob's picture

thats the funniest thing i have heard all day...

thanks for the laugh, atlantic

so, like joe biden is a zionist...
Ron Paul is also a zionist?

you're killing me, man!
stop it, i can't stop laughing
laughing at your total lack of understanding of the subject

perhaps this could be an opportunity for you to learn...oh, wait a minute, wait just a second, now, i see

you seek to change the definition of zionism?

because I thought zionism meant, like nazism, kill every infidel, or place them in a "camp", those that don't agree with you

well, lets get that straight first, then

naaaa...

if I get bummed out later, i know where to come back for a good laugh

see you, "atlantic"...i'll remember never to buy or visit you again

its 'cos I owe ya, my young friend...
Rockin' the FREE world in Tennessee since 1957!
9/11 Truth.

Difference between Zionism and Manifest Destiny?

Zionism only means creating a Jewish homeland.

Why do we as Americans have a right to conquer this land but the Jews don't have a right to get back what they once had? If 2,000 years in the future Native Americans re-conquered America, would they be "Zionists" too?

Either way, ZIONISM IS DEAD! Israel exists.

Our foreign policy in over there is strategically related to oil and power. It has nothing to do with Judaism or Zionism.

Check out http://ronpaulforums.com for activism and news.

Jews against Zionism wouldn't . . .

agree. And don't tell me they don't matter. They are smart, and they are Godly, and they have strong feelings, and they are pro-peace.

And more and more Jews are 'joining' them--

used to be only Orthodox Jews were 'against' "Zionism" (whatever it means); now more liberal Jews are joining.

According to these people when the first Jews moved back to Palestine . . . they were welcomed and became neighbors with the Muslims living there--

it was later that things became less peaceful, according to these Jews.

I only write what they have related. They were at peace with their Muslim neighbors; they were immigrants, not conquerors.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

when did Jews re-conquer Israel?

maybe some day in the future China will be the dominant superpower and will force Euro-Americans and Afro-Americans and Asian-Americans out of USA and give the USA land back to Native Americans and people who have taken on Native American Religions as their own? (and then give them nukes and a massive air force to defend it)

you understand it wrong.

you understand it wrong. zionism is a practical political movement for an independent jewish state, and not a statement of philosophy or morality about the relative value of individuals.

ecorob's picture

practical?

like nazism was practical?

its 'cos I owe ya, my young friend...
Rockin' the FREE world in Tennessee since 1957!
9/11 Truth.

he should be allowed in debate, but not a zionist

why do you even want to portray him as a zionist anyway? freedom implies fairness to worship any way that doesn't hurt others. as i understand it zionism implies that one race and religion is superior to all others and should dominate even if it means hurting, killing or stealing from others, right?

but if they really wanted a debate they'd invite someone who is not just there to kiss butt. obviously they do not want a real debate that could expose the public to different points of view (points of view that are very commonly held by the citizens of Israel itself, but are "blacked out" here in the "land of the free, and home of the brave").

Zionism has nothing to do

Zionism has nothing to do with killing non-Jews. Please research the topic before making incorrect claims.

Check out http://ronpaulforums.com for activism and news.

not in principle, sure, but

not in principle, sure, but in practical reality, it has had everything to do with killing and dispossessing non Jews. I dare you to challenge this. Who had to suffer so that Zionism could succeed? The Palestinians, the other Semites.

I don't really consider

I don't really consider myself a Zionist, since it's not a big issue for me, but I do think some people on here believe that the definition of Zionism is "supporting whatever the Israeli government does" which is not true. Jews had been voluntarily and peacefully moving back to Palestine over the decades preceding the WWII, by buying and improving land. In fact, many "Palestinians" were immigrants or descendents of recent immigrants from other Arab countries. Also, Palestine had never been a separate country, it was always a region of a larger empire and it wasn't until after WWI, when the British and French drew lines on a map in the Middle East that it was created as a political entity. Before that, it had been a part of the Ottoman Empire. At the time, there were two main groups, the Jews and the (primarily Muslim) Arabs. As libertarians, who are supposed to recognize the right to self-determination, there was nothing wrong with the Jews creating their own state out of land they had peacefully acquired. Both groups had a right to determine their political futures. Obviously, for many reasons (some of which were the fault of the Arabs and some were the fault of the Israelis), this didn't turn out so well. But that doesn't mean it had to turn out that way, or that it was necessary for either side to oppress the other.

so wrong, so wrong

First of all if there's a reason for Paul to be in the RJC presentation it is this: http://lewrockwell.com/block/block186.html

Secondly, here's the nut and bolts of this "argument":
Premise: Ron Paul understands Zionism.
Therefore: RonPaul is a Zionist.

Thirdly; If a sovereign has core values of independence and self-reliance does that then mean they're Zionist, too, Mr.Goldberg?

"If you want something you've never had before, you have to do something you've never done before." Debra Medina

So if Israel hits Iran, what

So if Israel hits Iran, what about the 25,000 Jews living there who attend the 11 openly operating synagogues in Tehran and what of their Jewish representative in Parliament?

Or should I have left that part out?

I wonder how long until this Wikipedia article becomes classified.

thank you for the intelligent answer--

the Jews in Israel aren't the only Jews, and they aren't the only Jews that matter.

I don't usually vote people up, but I'm giving you a 'point'--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

And Jews aren't the only

And Jews aren't the only people that matter.

"I know we're your chosen people, but just once, couldn't you choose someone else?" -Tevye

*chuckle about Tevye*

yes, everyone (of all religions/races) matters--

I point out those Jews who are wary of Israel, because *they* do care about others and want peace. It's a shame that they can't receive more support or at least not be marginalized, but then there are many things in the world that are shameful.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Most Israelis and Jews do

Most Israelis and Jews do care about other people, especially the Palestinians, but Israel is run by that faction of neoconservative fascists, Likud, and so we all get smeared with that broad authoritarian brush.

oh, I'm certain of it . . .

I don't know how I found the youtubes of the young Israelis who were imprisoned for speaking out and refusing to 'serve' in Gaza--

it was an eye opener; I am quite certain nothing like that ever has appeared in the U.S. media--

it's really very similar to what is happening here, though. Those who love freedom and truth are being oppressed everywhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jymhcl76vCs

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--