question about Ron Paul on tax-free tips
Submitted by laclient19 on Wed, 01/02/2008 - 11:56I just recently tried to speak to a bartender and tried to bring up tax-free tips as a measure to help convert him...
well he is big into politics and his first question was... "but why.. how is that fair that I get a tax break but you don't"... this shocked me.
and it made me think...... why? Why should waiter/waiters/etc... get off tax free when say an office worker doesn't receive such a tax break luxury? Aren't we in essence subsidizing?
Don't get me wrong, I want every service person out there to turnout and vote for Ron Paul. I just need an answer... maybe I'm missing the boat on this one because I didn't follow it much. I will delete this thread as soon as I get a good enough answer to give to him.
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did you ask him
if he thought it was fair that his hourly wage is far less than everyone else's. It's very noble of him however a bit short sighted. Furthermore if he is a better bartender than his coworkers does he think he should be penalized for it.
the hourly wage differential point is the strongest I've seen
Ron Paul 2008
Ron Paul 2008
gift tax?
There is such a thing as a gift tax, and theoretically if your tips are higher than the gift tax cutoff (what is it $20K?) you should report it. I don't know if this is collectively or per customer though. :)
It's single person to single person. (nt)
"Welcome to 2008: The Year of Ron Paul!"
Gift for good service?
That's a slippery slope. Why not recategorize all income into this category? I'll mow your lawn and when I'm done you can give me a gift for my service.
I don't understand RP's position on tips either. I can't agree with it and I suspect that if this were enacted the wages paid to waiters/waitresses would go down (to keep their 'takehome' the same their hourly wages have to go down and in a free market, you could attract workers at a lower wage rate because their takehome would be unchanged...)
I plan to vote for RP but I can't understand this position. Wanting to get rid of all income taxes is something I can support (although I'm not yet convinced that spending can be reduced enough to eliminate the income tax) but why is the 'tip tax' called out specifically?
Because that's not what income is!
Income is a gain derived from something. But when you exchange your labor property for someone else's money property (wages, salary, pay, etc.), that's actually a property exchange of zero gain. No income or gain is realized. That predates the 16th Amendment and has not been affected by it.
True income is money you get without a property exchange, and technically gifts (above whatever limit, $12K or $20K) are income. If the IRS did its job properly and followed not only court precedent, but the IRC as well as common sense then wages would be treated as they property they truly are and maybe (and I hope not!) they could be taxed under an excise or property tax. but definitely not income.
As for why the TFTA specifically, it's designed to give the best economic shot in the arm to a lot of service employees, people that can really use it, it simplifies things for employers, and best of ll it looks damned good for a campaign cycle and somehting for us Paulunteers to spread the word on rather easily.
The nasty secret is that if the IRS is correct and all of our labor is taxable income, then our labor is worthless!
One last detail, most states have specific minimum wages for service jobs, and most serivce workers, especially in food, are being paid at that minimum, so wages wouldn't go down in those areas.
"Welcome to 2008: The Year of Ron Paul!"
I'm with you on this point
I wouldn't go out and give gifts to waiters who never served me.
How many of you here walk into a restaurant and give gifts to servers without eating/drinking there?
Ron Paul 2008
Tell him this:
Tips are actually gifts for good service, not income, and gifts under $12K by one person each year is not taxable as income anyway. TFTA would simply make the IRS follow the law properly instead of calling tips taxable income when it's under the limit.
You can also call Advocates for Self-Government (www.advoactes.org) and see if they have any more of their tip cards left. I leave them hen I eat out all the time.
Besides, in places where tips are self-reported nobody reports 100% anyway...
And tell him it's not a subsidy to keep him own money! Instead, hes's *not* subsidizing the IRS!
"Welcome to 2008: The Year of Ron Paul!"
I agree
He simply wants to force the IRS to categorize tips properly (gifts instead of wages) and legally remove the taxation liability.
simple
he wants to eliminate all taxes on income but of course thats not gonna happen right away so for starters he wants to eliminate taxes on tips for starters. most waitress are young college student or single mothers they shouldnt pay tax on tips its outrageous but then again nobody should opay taxes on earning from labor.
It is a gift, not income
People who wait are taxed on the gross sales of the customers, and taxed according to that amount, whether or not the gratuities were given.
A tip is a gift, not payment for services.
Why should the government intrude into personal gift giving?
It's just the start!
Don't forget that Ron Paul wants to eliminate income taxes for ALL of us! But he has tried to make inroads with this ultimate plan any way that he can. He made a valid point that tips are theoretically not wages, they are an extra bonus for providing superior service. his point is, why do you punish someone for providing superior service? I agree that if the push against taxes were to stop with the tax free tips act, it would be unfair and a failure- but one way to look at it is, it's getting our foot in the door, and making a statement that the federal government needs to back off! If this were to pass, i could see other steps, such as making labor intensive jobs tax free "why should someone be punished for a hard days work?" and going forward from there.
The tax-free-tips act shows what Dr. Paul is committed to doing as a congressman. As president, the elimination of the IRS is the goal.
Don't forget that Dr. Paul has introduced countless pieces of legislation to give tax breaks, to repeal taxes wholesale, and is always pushing in that direction. It's just that this particular piece of legislation may have gotten more traction than others. You see, even congressmen and women have to eat out at restaurants once in a while, and you don't want to piss off the person that has the unique opportunity to spit in your food.
5% of people make things happen
10% of people watch things happen
85% say "What happened?"
Spit
How about we get a list of those congress people that voted AGAINST the bill (or will vote against it) and print it on the other side of a card from the bill itself. Than propagate throughout D.C restaurants.
yummmmm. rice pudding, anyone?
We might ought to be
We might ought to be careful- that could be construed as an act of terrorism!
But I would happily spit in the food of all three New Mexico congressmen's food if they voted against this.
Rep. Heather Wilson thought it had merit.
5% of people make things happen
10% of people watch things happen
85% say "What happened?"
It hasn't been voted on yet, though. (nt)
"Welcome to 2008: The Year of Ron Paul!"
Tax Free Tips
This is an interm measure--remember Paul wants to end the income tax and replace it with nothing and reduce spending by even more. Additionally, there are a huge number of income earners getting a special tax break currently--home owners with their mortgage interest deduction, medical expense deductions, charitable deductions, child tax credits. Its a hodge podge currently.
It's all theft
It's like saying. Well, this mugger robbed everyone in the park, so that's ok. That's just.
There's no such thing as a "fair" income tax.
ANY time a tax gets nullified, that's a good thing. That's just more money denied to the warmongers and that much more money that stays in the private economy doing good.
Also, tips are a "voluntary gift", not a guaranteed wage. i know that doesn't mean anything to the IRS but it should.
Well, obviously Ron Paul
Well, obviously Ron Paul believes that everyone should be a 100% tax break, but the way that the tax on tips is collected is completely bogus. Service workers are taxed on tips that they MIGHT receive, even if they don't get ANY tips. How fair is that? The IRS speculates that they will get a certain percentage in tips and they must pay taxes on that even if they don't achieve that. It's a complete scam and unfair as hell. In addition, most people who rely on tips, such as waitresses and bartenders, do not get wages as high as, say, someone who works in an office so they really rely on their tips.
www.paulforronpaul.com
anyone?
Ron Paul 2008
Ron Paul 2008