-15 votes

Mr. Paul's Pro-Nuclear Position is Ill Advised

Until the time Fukushima blew up and when I attempted to understand the number 1 million -- that was about 5 months ago, I was an ardent nuclear power supporter. I am now dead set against it.

You see, if thinking in term of scale and take 1 foot as the energy scale of gasoline, then the time to travel that distance is mere fraction of a second at 50MPH. Now, nuclear power is at least 1 million times that, 1 million feet, or a distance in term of feet traveled in 4 hours at 50MPH.

Anyone has ever driven from Boston to NYC knows it's an impossibly long trip. In reality, many kinds of nuclear radiation are two million times the energy of gasoline (eV vs MeV).

If one does not dare to stand in front of a moving car, one does not dare to tinker with nuclear energy, period.

Humanity is too morally frail to control nuclear power. When things get out of hand, best people can do is black out the news. Such is a case we have now concerning Fukushima!

I understand Mr. Paul's position in respecting property rights will force the plant owners to compensate people for any mishaps so that makes the nuclear utopia believers think twice. More importantly, he is for truer free market economy. This means without subsidy, the industry would be dead in the water; for example, the clean up costs in Japan could easily exceed 1 trillion dollars and there's no way to recover that by selling electricity. Without real positive profits, there's no way a business could continue to exist.

BTW, now that you really know the number 1 million, think you really know the current US deficit?




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Reconsider

Did you know that CA has a "mini star", which burns spent nuclear waste? Nuclear energy is everywhere in CA, and that includes ships and subs docked at our ports.

It seems to me, that the biggest problem with nuclear energy was ridding ourselves of the waste, and now, with mini stars and research, there is hope for nuclear power.

The issue of nuclear power brings to my mind the image of cave men, and some have learned to carry fire from place to place, or figuring flint rock can produce a fire for them, and others of the tribes or clans have very practical arguments why they should not. But, people do evolve, otherwise we would all be in caves, and for us, nuclear power is part of OUR world and it's future. We can not go backwards, we must go forward WITH nuclear power and eliminating it's waste for the good of the planet, it's people/fauna and flora.

WE ARE GOING TO WIN!

I wouldnt neccesarily tag him

I wouldnt neccesarily tag him as "Pro-Nuclear." I don't view Dr Paul as "Pro-" anything except liberty and private property. If a company, devoid of government subsidies, purchases land, they have the right to build whatever they please on that land. And if that company believes they can build a profitable nuclear/coal/natural gas power plant, then so be it. In the same strain of the company's liberties and property rights, they do not have the right to pollute or damage other people property including but not limited to their drinking water, their air, their land(soil, crops, etc.), their livestock, or their own person. The issues today are

1. the idea of the "Common Good",
2. government subsidies holding back innovation,
3. and the fact that the plants lease the land and the reservoirs from local, state, and fed governments as opposed to owning the land or renting it from a private owner and actually having to be good stewards of it.

Now if a natural disaster or other catastrophic incident were to occur, and it was determined that a company did not have an acceptable level of safeguards in place, that company would be held financially, and possibly legally, liable.

Saying that, my father is a r&d engineer for a utilities company and worked at a nuclear power plant for many years designing and testing containment building and reactor safety systems. From what he's told me, every single reactor in the US is at least many times safer than the Fukushima reactor, and that Fukushima would have passed minimum DOE and NRC regulations.

I have to return some videotapes...

I feel I should post here. I

I feel I should post here. I actually work in a nuke power plant. Nuclear power IS NOT dangerous provided you have the proper safeguards in place. The power needs to be respected, not feared. Fukishima was a perfect example of mismanagement, what you had in that situation was the higher-ups at the plant not wanting to dump seawater into the core immediately, they wanted to save the plant and the money it would cost to re-build it, in the end because of their hesitation they lost the plant and evacuated the town as well. Another thing....with all those news stories on Fukishima not ONCE did they actually give milliseivert or millirem numbers for the contamination levels. I am willing to bet that the actual contamination reaching the town was minimal, probably hardly above background level. Alpha rays are blocked by clothing, beta rays are blocked by thin plastic, gamma rays are blocked by lead and nuetron rays are blocked by water and concrete...all reactor cores are housed in a pool surrounded by concrete walls, once they did dump seawater into the pool it cooled the fuel enough that it was no longer producing neutron rays(those are the most dangerous ones) in effect shutting down the reactor. If they had done this immediately most of the rest of the problems would never have happened. I am also betting the evacuation of the town wasn't strictly necessary, that was just the government having to be seen doing something

ytc's picture

I guess your post-Fukushima sentiment should be

included as one of the factors in the Free Market of Ideas, when we - the general population and policy-makers - decide on the future of our energy policy.

Fair enough :-)

519rob's picture

Fukushima is hardly a fair

Fukushima is hardly a fair example. It was built on top of the "ring of fire", right beside the ocean. It was a disaster waiting to happen. I think nuclear power is safe if all relevant precautions are taken.

With government out of the nuke business

it could actually be a lot safer, alot faster.

Dept of Energy was created to give the elite the power of government to usher in the nuclear industry with shortcuts.

Guess who owns more uranium than anyone in the world?

The queen of England!

There are some who say no nuclear no way.

But it has proven to be useful in hundreds of applications.

Government corruption makes the nuclear industry dangerous and expensive.

2012 Is About Abolishing Slavery In America --Google that!
www.dailypaul.com/donate

Senior Reactor Operator

I currently have my Senior Reactor Operator License and it should be noteworthy that the Deepwater Horizon Oil Spill killed 11 people and caused millions of dollars of damage to property as well.

The Japan Earthquake and Tsunami killed over 15,000 people while only 2 people were hospitalized for radiation burns from the Fukushima disaster.

Putting things into perspective is important. Certainly, property rights are important and must be preserved in a free society, but to stop all progress in any scientific field because of past failures is never the solution. I can tell you that the Nuclear Industry takes lessons learned from Chernobyl, Three Mile Island and Fukushima very seriously and incorporates them into the training of its operators.

For a better analysis than mine, see Penn and Teller (Pre-Fukushima :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP2oG0n4NLc

I'm a nuclear engineer

B.S. Nuclear Engineering, Oregon State University
M.S. Nuclear and Reactor Engineering, M.I.T.

Do you realize that you are bombarded with this exact same type of radiation from the sun continuously, and most of the sun's radiation travels at the speed of light (gamma rays, neutrinos, antineutrinos)?

Did you also know that most radiation emitted from radioactive material is blocked by clothing or the dead layer of your skin?

I have worked with nuclear reactors for 10 years now, and my lifetime dosage is less than that of a commercial airline pilot's.

You have taken some raw data and have made very uninformed opinions about nuclear power. Let's take your example about being hit by a car travelling at 1 million feet per second, although most neutrons inside a reactor travel at 2200 meters per second. The difference with a car is momentum. Mass times velocity. The mass of an average car is roughly 2000 kg. The mass of a neutron is 1.6479x10^-27 kg. Do you see what the difference in momentum is?

Also, an electron volt is the amount of energy an electron gains by traveling through an electrical potential of one volt. So, even at the MeV level (one million volts), the mass of an electron is 9.11x10^-31 kg. 1 MeV is a very small amount of energy. Don't let the MEGA prefix scare you.

Just to demistify the physics, a fissile atom receives a neutron, the atom fissions, resulting in two highly charged ions traveling away from each other. It is the electrostatic slowing down of these ions that produces the majority of the heat in a reactor... not some mysterious magical fission energy.

If you're going to make a physics argument, you need to come to it with some relevant physics.

HVACTech's picture

is a Nuclear reaction, a form of Plasma?

recently, I witnessed a fellow DPer operate a "water torch". while observing it's unique properties, it struck me that an ordinary flame is a form of plasma. if that is correct, then it makes sense that plasma is involved in nuclear fission.
sorry if that is a dumb question.....

The primary function of the design engineer is to make things difficult for the fabricator and impossible for the serviceman.

Plasma

A nuclear reaction is not a form of plasma. Ionic/Isotropic plasma is a condition needed for nuclear fusion, because the reaction is extremely endothermic, so the high temps require the maintenance of an atomic plasma.

UPDATE: Not to be confusing, but the reaction itself is also exothermic. That's more chemistry terminology, so I hope I'm not misusing them. I was just trying to convey that fusion requires a lot of energy to get started and to sustain. It's difficult to control in that sense.

Double posting makes things awkward

Yes it does indeed

Challenge everything and the path will be clear.

Physics/electrical engineering student here.

Still working on my B.S. 3rd year.

First: Great analysis, but I think you may have misread his post a little.

Second: Any advice on how to get into M.I.T for grad school? lol

Third: Ron Paul 2012!

Challenge everything and the path will be clear.

I probably did misread

I only got part way in, was incensed, and started responding.
Getting into MIT is more arduous than difficult, you may find. It's a lengthy and involved application process. You need letters of recommendation from professors, you need to write an essay and a resume, you need to prove you can pay for it, all kinds of nonsense. Do well in your undergrad is my best advice, and take the GRE as soon as you can.

The amount of energy stored in a fuel is a function of mass

Your analysis makes no sense, are you saying that the energy PER MASS is a million times greater? Or the energy DENSITY?

In any case, you are wrong in saying that humans can't control nuclear power, humans can and are successfully using it every single day. Just because uranium contains such a large amount of energy per mass doesn't mean we have to be afraid of using nuclear power. By controlling the rate of the reaction, we are able to siphon off energy at the rate we choose, sort of like emptying bathtubs a teaspoon at a time, the size of the bathtubs doesn't really matter.

Nuclear reactors work by boiling water to turn steam turbines, just like coal reactors. Nothing frightening or mysterious. The threat of a meltdown is admittedly present, as in the case of Fukashima however modern reactors using embedded uranium pellets will most likely put an end to this.

The concepts behind nuclear power are extremely fundamental to our understanding of physics, and at this point are as simple and basic as the transistor radio. There is no excuse for people living in this day and age shun such an easy and efficient power source. Furthermore, innovations in nuclear technology are extremely promising, and may one day even get us humans up off this rock once and for all.

Challenge everything and the path will be clear.

like it or not

the next president will be pro nuclear power.

the difference between Dr. Paul and Obama is that Ron would prefer the use of hemp.

“Why do we subsidize domestic corn ethanol production and then have a tariff on much cheaper sugarcane ethanol from Brazil? But there happens to be a better source of ethanol, and that is Hemp!"
Dr. Ron Paul

“We have allowed our nation to be over taxed and over regulated and overrun by bureaucrats, the founders would be ashamed of us for what we're putting up with.” Ron Paul

Risky

Dr. Paul's opinion of nuclear may not be relevant since he's a libertarian. I think he would leave it up to the courts to decide if nuclear power plants violate private property rights. I think a strong argument could be made that these plants pose a huge risk and should be illegal, but that's up to the opposing sides to prove in court.

Here's an article I found about a worst case scenario involving a Solar flare causing a nuclear holocaust.

http://www.naturalnews.com/033564_solar_flares_nuclear_power...

If a dam or two collapses and

If a dam or two collapses and kills hundreds of thousands downstream, will you be against hydro-electric power from then on? What about oil? Have you been against oil since the BP spill? What if there is another tsunami like the one in 2004? Will you then favor legislation that does not allow people to go near the ocean? Where does the fear end? Bad things happen, but we can't resort to cowering in fear as a result.

Tell us what energy sources you do favor, and then prove to us that they are enough to fulfill our power needs.

Not unlikely from what I heard~

Heard recently that a couple of dams upstream from St. Louis could go. I think one was in Montana. Anyway, one expert seemed surprised that the dams held up through last Spring as one had an earthen structure~the type California got rid of. Seem to remember that a nuclear plant could be affected. This was a worthy story about our deteriorating infrastructure that the MSM didn't cover very well. If anyone wants more information, will go through my archives. If Dr. Paul gets elected, hopefully there will be some money for the states to do some much needed repairs.

Fed-Up

The problem with nuclear

The problem with nuclear power is that it couldn't exist in its current form in a free market. It can only exist now because of cronyism and heavy government subsidy.

"In reality, the Constitution itself is incapable of achieving what we would like in limiting government power, no matter how well written."

~ Ron Paul, End the Fed

Nuclear is still very efficient...

I work for one of the most leading edge Municipally owned Energy Companies in San Antonio, TX. The 6th biggest city in the nation. (not including metro areas)

San Antonio's energy company is known across the nation for it's cheap energy prices and the diversity in which we generate our energy.

33% nuclear, 33% coal, 15% natural gas, 10% landfill, 9% Renewables (wind, solar)

If it wasn't for the nuclear project set forth in the 1970s in Bay City Texas...we wouldn't be where we are today. Many here are believers of Safe Nuclear Technology. We recently had townhalls because the Local City owned Energy company wanted to buy ownership in More Nuclear Plants being built in Bay City.

Nowhere in the presentations did they mention government subsidies in helping construct the Nuclear Plant....It was all being paid for and Financed half by City Bonds raised by the city (from san antonio)...the other coming from a For Profit Houston Energy company... Federal Government Not Involved.

It was about $14 billion to construct the plant. Big money upfront....but you don't need to constantly fuel the heat source... You just buy some rods and they last a LONG time.

The amount of energy you get back for that upfront cost is more than enough to justify it over a Power Plant's life (30-60 years).

Small Off subject Info: The second purchase of Nuclear Power Plants did not go through because of a local scandal and dishonesty with the price of construction discovered (partly due to the spike in construction prices after the 2008 crash). Executives found out about a higher construction price and lied and covered up to the public about it. So the vote failed to build new nuclear plants. While it is unfortunate this happened....people didn't vote down nuclear power because it was unsafe...

Many executives lost their Job and a new CEO was brought in for better "Transparency" at the energy company.
In Retrospect...I'm kind of glad cause that's how I got my current position which I love in my company :)

I think you misunderstood

I think you misunderstood something, nuclear power is THE most effective power source we have.

Nuclear Weaponry: Free Market and RP

"...nuclear power...couldn't exist in its [present] form in a free market. It can exist (how it does) only because of cronyism and...government subsidy."

I understand your analysis and applaud you for how you came to it, understanding the market -- the individual -- when it, when he, is free.

________

Additionally, azn is wrong on RP's stance on nuclear weapons and weapons of any other kind. About nuclear ones, he has said and said so recently that he wants no one, including Iran, to have nuclear weapons but that a person or a group of persons as a country has what anyone else has, a right to defend himself or themselves. What RP advocates is defense, not offense, and the method to allay rifts, communication.

School's fine. Just don't let it get in the way of learning. -Me

Just dropped in to criticize

This account is hours old, and this thread is the only one created from the account.

his other thread voicing support for rp is quite legitimate

we have a lot of new bloods these past few months and the rate will only increase.. so perhaps this is something to get used to.. including the opinions they bring

you're basing the morality argument in a limited framework

set in a narrow scope in time.. the economic rules of the land used to be that there is no such thing as "limited liability".. if you fail at business or cause economic disasters beyond the scope of your company assets, you can be personally gone after and ripped of everything you ever have. this should get a lot of people thinking twice before they make decisions that put other people in jeopardy, and this is only a starter, as i said, this is only a framework, but on this exceptionally critical factor, there is already a huge difference.

arguing on the grounds of a lot of preexisting notion or prejudice of how a controlled economy works and how more important tasks that require heavier responsibility do not function under this environment, when the framework itself is the problem and can be challenged--and mind you, this is what we're doing--to get the perspective wrong and argue things in the wrong context, is simply misguided.