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Ron Paul speech about secession and Civil War

Curious to get peoples thoughts on this particular subject. And I sincerely apologize if these videos have already been posted and the subject has been discussed before.

Fire away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz3PZSLjhmA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=ZAIEiq...



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The solution to slavery is not

slavery of a different group.

I like the solution followed by other countries, of buying slaves and setting them free.

I hate the solution assumed to have been followed here, refusing otherwise free men to secede from the nation. Of course, that was not the facts. Lincoln would have countenanced slavery, it was allowing free men to secede that was his problem. Slavery was grafted on afterwards to morally justify one of the largest wholesale killing, terror operations ever in our history.

I guess if you really wanted to kill people to end slavery, you could have killed them, freed the slaves, and then allowed the South to secede, if they wanted to. That would have coincided with a consistent principle of freedom.

But to enslave the south, and us all by announcing that no American can ever leave the Union without being faced with being murdered, was replacing one form of slavery with another.

Don't Vote For Ron Paul for anything less than
Re[love]ution & Renaissance
Dennis

I wonder how long before the MSM uses this non-issue?

Judge Andrew Napolitano makes exactly the same points on his "Presidents' Day" 2011 broadcast, only he goes much further, calling Lincoln a "tyrant" and "our worst President".

The motif is unfortunate, though historically accurate. The Confederate cause was an imperfect one, as it was marred by slavery; however, it was far nobler than the Northern cause. After all, several slave states remained with the Union. One element that must be kept in mind is that those who fought for the Union committed treason; because, by their very stated cause (i.e., preserving the union), they were waging war upon citizens of the states.

Two personal side notes. I wasn't aware of Spooner, the abolitionist who sided with the Confederacy. However, that was precisely and is precisely my personal stance. Furher, a head of a debating team, I made exactly the same argument that Dr. Paul does. Had Lincoln been sincere about "freeing the slaves," he should have compensated Southern slave holders. While slavery is and should have always been a repugnant institution, it was legal and should have been settled with respect to "property rights." That it was not is testimony to Lincoln's and the "radical Republicans'" true intentions and they should have all been publicly hanged as a lesson to the banking interests and those who advocate tyranny under the guise of a "strong central government."

Hoooo boy.

A lot of misconception in that youtube discussion.
(1st one)
Good vid btw.

Commenters, I don't know if you agree with me, but elevating principles above the mightily superficial (public education influenced) narrow example based arguments should put them in their place if they have any sense of critical thought. Yeah, slavery was horrible (and still is.. ahem..) but don't fight their fight. That's tunnel vision.

Elevate the discussion beyond the specifics abhorrent to today's mode of thinking to a reflective capacity. Turn them around with word-fu.

Principles are not actions, they are foundations of ways of being. As such commonwealth principles do not condone sadism, rather they oppose it on a higher level. History cannot be rewritten but we can change the here and now.

History cannot be rewritten...

I think if you read Woods, DiLorenzo, Rothbard, Folsom (to name a few, there are many others) history of the "civil war" and "great depression causes and resolutions" are evidence that it can be very successfully rewritten and successfully disseminated.

Agree?

Heh.. touche

Agreed, but the actual circumstances can not be recreated no matter what the acceptable interpretations here nor there.

That's why IMO stable thought patterns and principles are so important.

He's of course 100% correct

He's of course 100% correct in both his history and philosophy. The right of secession is the most crucial of all rights. Without it, there IS no free society. A speech however, in front of a confederate flag ain't gonna play well with the impossibly ignorant media and public school brainwashed public.

One of the main thrusts of Dr. Paul is the Austrian School

And with this comes with deep historical analysis of this event in terms of economics and economic motivations by Murray Rothbard, to name one, who was an adept historian (as was Mises etc.).

More recent authors like DiLorenzo and Woods have refined or dug deeper into the earlier works, that basically shatter the myths around Lincoln, slavery, the union, secession/states’ rights, the originally proposed 14th amendment, voluntary union, 10th amendment and so on.

Basically, according to the research of these authors, Lincoln himself was a racist insider who furthered the crown-Hamiltonian-Clay mercantile model. The war was over economics, and the protectionist Whig/Republican north could not afford (so Lincoln and his cronies estimated) a free market south, so they thought. It's a sobering experience to discover this about a president everyone seems want to place along side of Washington, Jefferson, Jackson etc.

The truth of American Slavery is that it was also on its way out in the South. The Lincoln intervention changed the voluntary union to a mandatory Federal Union. Lincoln forever changed the United States, for the worse.

Many, dare I say most northerners of the era dreaded Lincoln, but by the way of fate, his assassination circumstances paved the way for a new saint for big government, Abraham Lincoln.

If you're interested on any of the specifics of "some" of DiLorenzo's charges, I'll do my best point you in the right direction, regarding Lincoln or the "civil war":

DiLorenzo's charges of Lincoln:

1. Saying contradictory things before different audiences.

2. Opposing racial equality.

3. Opposing giving blacks the right to vote, serve on juries or intermarry while allegedly supporting their natural rights.

4. Being a racist.

5. Supporting the legal rights of slaveholders.

6. Supporting Clay's American System or mercantilism as his primary political agenda: national bank, high tariff, and internal improvements.

7. Supporting a political economy that encourages corruption and inefficiency.

8. Supporting a political economy that became the blueprint for modern American.

9. Being a wealthy railroad lawyer.

10. Never defending a runaway slave.

11. Defending a slaveholder against his runaway slave.

12. Favoring returning ex-slaves to Africa or sending them to Central America and Haiti.

13. Proposing to strengthen the Fugitive Slave law.

14. Opposing the extension of slavery in the territories so that "free white people" can settle there and because allowing them to become slave states would dilute Republican influence in Congress because of the three-fifths rule.

15. Opposing black citizenship in Illinois or their right to immigrate to that state.

16. Failing to use his legendary political skills to achieve peaceful emancipation as was accomplished elsewhere - Lincoln's war was the only "war of emancipation" in the 19th.

17. Nullifying emancipation of slaves in Missouri and Georgia early in the war.

18. Stating that his primary motive was saving the union and not ending slavery.

19. Supporting a conscription law.

20. Sending troops into New York City to quell draft riots related to his emancipation proclamation, resulting in 300 to 1,000 deaths.

21. Starting a war that took the lives of 620,000 soldiers and 50,000 civilians and caused incalculable economic loss.

22. Being an enemy of free market capitalism.

23. Being an economic illiterate and espousing the labor theory of value.

24. Supporting a disastrous public works project in Illinois and continuing to support the same policies oblivious of the consequences.

25. Conjuring up a specious and deceptive argument against the historically-recognized right of state secession.

26. Lying about re-supplying the fed's tax collection office known as Fort Sumter.

27. Refusing to see peace commissioners from the Confederacy offering to pay for all federal property in the South.

28. Refusing to see Napoleon III of France who offered to mediate the dispute.

29. Provoking Virginia to secede by taking military action against the Deep South.

30. Supporting a tariff and other policies that systematically redistributed wealth from the South to the North, causing great consternation in the South.

31. Invading the South without consulting Congress.

32. Illegally declaring martial law.

33. Illegally blockading ports.

34. Illegally suspending habeas corpus.

35. Illegally imprisoning thousands of Northern citizens.

36. Tolerating their subjection to inhumane conditions in prison.

37. Systematically attacking Northern newspapers and their employees, including by imprisonment.

38. Deporting his chief political enemy in the North, Congressman Clement L. Vallandigham of Ohio.

39. Confiscating private property and firearms.

40. Ignoring the Ninth and Tenth Amendments.

41. Tolerating the arrest of ministers who refused to pray for Lincoln.

42. Arresting several duly elected members of the Maryland Legislature along with the mayor of Baltimore and Maryland Congressman Henry May.

43. Placing Kansas and Kentucky under martial law.

44. Supporting a law that indemnified public officials for unlawful acts.

45. Laying the groundwork for the establishment of conscription and income taxation as permanent institutions.

46. Interfering with and rigging elections in Maryland and elsewhere in the North.

47. Censoring all telegraph communication.

48. Preventing opposition newspapers from being delivered by the post office.

49. Illegally creating the state of West Virginia out of the "indestructible" state of Virginia.

50. Tolerating or supporting mistreatment of citizens in conquered territory.

51. Taxing those citizens without their consent.

52. Executing those who refused to take a loyalty oath.

53.Closing churches and arresting ministers.

54. Burning and plundering Southern cites.

55. Quartering troops in private homes unlawfully.

56. reating an enormous political patronage system.

57. Allowing an unjust mass execution of Sioux Indians in Minnesota.

58. Engineering a constitutional revolution through military force which destroyed state sovereignty and replaced it with rule by the Supreme Court (and the United States Army).

59. Laying the groundwork for the imperialist and militarist campaigns of the future as well as the welfare/warfare state.

60. Creating the dangerous precedent of establishing a strong consolidated state out of a decentralized confederation.

61. Effectively killing secession as a threat, thus encouraging the rise of our modern federal monolith.

62. Waging war on civilians by bombing, destruction of homes, and confiscation of food and farm equipment.

63. Tolerating an atmosphere which led to large numbers of rapes against Southern women, including slaves.

64. Using civilians as hostages.

65. Promoting a general because of his willingness to use his troops as cannon fodder.

66. The plundering of the South by Lincoln's allies.

67. Supporting government subsidies of the railroads leading to corruption and inefficiency.

68. Supporting a nationalized paper currency which is inherently inflationary.

69. Creating the federal tax bureaucracy and various taxes that are still with us.

70. Establishing precedents for centralized powers and suppression of liberties that continue to be cited today.

71. Ending slavery by means that created turbulence that continues to this day instead of letting slavery run its natural economic course as it had everywhere else.

Despite all that,

'ole Abe was still contemptible.

Tom's "The Real Lincoln" opened my eyes to a man who should be publicly villified more often and scorned for the actions he took in office.

Thank you, JWB!

"The problem is not those in power, the problem is right between your ears." ~Larken Rose

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5FNDRgPOLs&list=FL4wdZ0dK3HG...