2 votes

Looking for clarification regarding Dr. Paul's drug policies

Hi, I recently saw a video where Ron Paul, when asked what he would do with all the non-violent drug offenders once he is in office, said that he would pardon all non-violent drug offenders.

My question comes from the term 'drug'. Does this just mean marijuana or does this also go for meth, heroin, etc? If he views that ALL non-violent drug offenders including those drugs, might I provide a suggestion that would allow people to be pardoned for committing a crime that is no longer considered a crime?

I know he views all drugs should be controlled by the states on their legality, rather than the Federal Government controlling it, but wouldn't it make sense to just reclassify marijuana based on its ability to be used as a medicine and because it gets reclassified and it no longer becomes a schedule 1 narcotic, those people go free?

For those who commit a crime with a drug that remains schedule 1, they should still be allowed to leave, but only after testing negative for any drugs.

Meth is one helluva drug and IMO, it creates shitty people. I ultimately think a treatment process should be used instead of incarceration, but I know some people have differing views. What ideas do you all have regarding this issue?

What are the odds that a person arrested for meth has not been arrested before for a violent crime?

What are the odds that a person arrested for meth will relapse after released from jail, with or without treatment/rehabilitation?




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The Federal Government has no right to start and fight

unconstitutional wars. Thereby picking winners and losers. The war on, drugs, poverty, crime, cancer, terrorism, poverty, etc, etc, It's all double-talk to steal our rights and liberty by the use of force and violence.

A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil.
A vote for liberty is always a vote for liberty.
I will vote for Ron Paul as either the nominee or as a write in.

"Non-Violent" means no violence was committed

All drug laws are victimless crimes. If someone is in jail for possession of a drug, it is a victimless crime.

That is NOT what Ron Paul means by "non-violent." What happens is that sometimes, someone commits an act of violence while ALSO using drugs. Or, they are engaged in selling drugs while ALSO threatening someone with a gun.

Someone who commits an act of VIOLENCE (or threat of violence) while ALSO doing something that is illegal vis-a-vis federal drug laws would NOT get a pardon. Anyone who was not using violence in the act of violating a federal drug law WOULD get a pardon.

Also, simply "releasing" from jail/prison is NOT a pardon. Pardon means they are released AND their record is voided as if they never were convicted or even accused. That way, they are not an "ex-con."

It is interesting to note that Portugal made drugs legal about 10 years ago and you don't hear horror stories. Many countries in South America make simple drug possession and use legal, or so minor that cops don't pay attention. No serious problems.

The ONE place in the world where people are dying in the streets because of drugs is in the corridor from Mexico to the USA to meet the demand for drugs, and that is ONLY due to the laws which create the black market in the first place.

And no, it would not make it simpler to "just" reclassify one drug or another. The simplest solution is to inform the US Attorney General to NOT prosecute violations of federal drug laws because there is NO CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY to do so, and then proceed to release and pardon those currently in federal prison on a case-by-case basis (reviewing to make sure it was a non-violent offense).

"just reclassify marijuana

"just reclassify marijuana based on its ability to be used as a medicine and because it gets reclassified and it no longer becomes a schedule 1 narcotic, those people go free?"
- this will be more difficult when experts cannot agree- understandably due to lobbies - some people don't want the gravy train to stop.
- more importantly, your perspective still reflects central planning and control, which is what we are trying to correct.
- it's precisely those complex, delicate, and personal, and irrational issues that gets people divided, and conquered, that we need to handle at local communities-away from central government. That would empower us and allow us to produce creative and at times (locally) disastrous solutions. With more localized decision making, the best ideas get to be tested out and voted on without strangling our individual liberties.
- odds are not proof. If proven guilty, then do not pardon. If no record of guilt, then by law, they should be free; other than the "guilt" through this I'll-conceived drug law(s).

I agree with ending

the "war on drugs" at all levels but I don't agree with the wholesale release of all "non violent" drug offenders. What does he consider a "non voilent" offender?

reedr3v's picture

Non-violent "crimes" are those with no victim.

The federal government's war on drugs is really a war on freedom and civil rights. Why would you support caging people who merely were exercising freedom of choice in their own personal life and interfering with no one else's freedom?

A few points

First, he means pardon all "federal" non violent drug offenders. He would not step into the state criminal system.

Second, he does not advocate use of drugs and would leave it to each state to decide what would be legal or not.

Thirdly - ignorant Americans need to recall prohibition. This country decided that the cumulitive negative effects of alcohol were just too great for society to bare. Since there was still the rule of law they followed the correct path and ammendend the US Constituion. What happend next?

The level of crime, violence and corruption was so great that the people realized all the evils of legal alcohol were less distructive to society than prohibition.
This isn't a theory or opinion it is a freaking fact that anyone with the sense g-d gave a doorknob should be able to grasp.

Prohibition? crimes fundamental tool of empowerment.

Liberty = Responsibility

John P. Slevin's picture

pardon for all non-violent, pertaining to all drugs

He means all non-violent offenses for any currently illegal drugs.

He's been consistent and outspoken on this his entire career.

When he first ran for president in 1988 (as the Libertarian Party nominee) he made a big issue of this on the campaign trail.

You can google and find videos of him during that campaign discussing the subject.

SFTS's picture

Theft is a non-violent crime

"He means all non-violent offenses for any currently illegal drugs.

What he means is victimless criminals. To be considered a "crime" it has to involve a trespassing action against person or property; and a sworn complaint issued by the victim.

"Non-violent" is very broad. Embezzlement is a non-violent federal crime. "Victimless" is not. It's very specific. No victim = No crime.

It's the End of the Line for Ron Paul and his supporters
http://youtu.be/OmtlqB0x59Y

John P. Slevin's picture

yes

You are right, and he's always explained it that way.

The same thing long has been a staple of Libertarian campaigns.

I was responding to the drug related question.

Your explanation is more clear than mine.

I pretty sure Dr. Paul in a

I pretty sure Dr. Paul in a debate called drug addiction an illness that needs treatment not imprisonment.

John P. Slevin's picture

it's important to distinguish

Ron Paul would not force treatment.

Often, people say "offenses" for drug possession or use should be treated criminally, although in place of incarceration one should receive mandated treatment or "therapy".

Paul doesn't say that, nor would he find it acceptable.

That's still the State unacceptably making decisions for how a peaceful and honest person may live.

He's explicit when saying this isn't an area for government, people are free to make their own choices.

SFTS's picture

Victimless Crimes , Federal Convictions

"I recently saw a video where Ron Paul, when asked what he would do with all the non-violent drug offenders once he is in office, said that he would pardon all non-violent drug offenders."

Let's be very clear with respect to pardons for victimless offenders (drug offenders, tax protesters, etc.). Presidents only exercise authority to pardon Federal convictions. NOT state convictions. Federal convictions.

"that would allow people to be pardoned for committing a crime that is no longer considered a crime?"

At the federal level yes. Now at the state level, I'm no attorney, but I would say no. Each state enacted narcotic laws known as "uniform state narcotic statutes" which later became federalized with the passage of the Uniform State Narcotics Act. So chances are, your state had enacted narcotic prohibition BEFORE the federal government. The 10th amendment leaves domestic crime to the states.

I hope this answers your question, or inspires someone else (preferably an attorney) to provide a better answer.

It's the End of the Line for Ron Paul and his supporters
http://youtu.be/OmtlqB0x59Y

legalizecapitalism's picture

This “War on Drugs” expert could help Ron Paul’s platform...

I went to graduate school with Carl Hart, Ph.D., who is a tenured professor at Columbia University where his cutting-edge human research on the effects of illicit drugs is well respected around the world.

He also authors the most popular college text book on drug use and abuse "Drugs and Human Behavior" (Harper Row)

He is also the authority on how minorities are unfairly targeted by the judicial system in the War on Drugs. I think he would help Ron Paul if the campaign reached out to him.

He has been featured in WIRED magazine

http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2010/02/features/car...

and most recently in Scientific American where his review on the cognitive effects of Meth effectively undermined much of the government’s propaganda (caused quite a stir at NIH) on the negative effects of Methamphetamine in humans.

Meth Hype Could Undermine Good Medicine

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=hype-over-t...

Overstating the dangers of methamphetamine may impede treatment of drug abusers, asserts a review by Columbia University researchers

Let's get down to your real question - "dangerous drugs"

Let's get down to your real question, which is less about the Honorable Dr. Ron Paul, and more of a philosophical question of what amount of violence is moral and legal to initiate against an otherwise peaceful person for doing something that worries you.

Your example is Meth. Your concern is that someone using Meth turns quickly into a useless member of society, and even an immoral violence intiator himself, highly like to steal or hurt or threaten violence. The question, reworded might be, "What should *the law of a State* do about a person who takes a dangerous drug". I'm presuming that you want the law to be moral. And I'm assuming that you believe that a major principle of morality is not initiating violence against otherwise peaceful humans.

Practically, I can see few states taking a libertarian, moral approach, so I think a lot of this discussion is academic. but given that such questions interest me, I'm willing to address it.

Let's say there is a libertarian state, say, NH, which wanted to honor people's humanity, even if they make "bad" choices. Here would be some guidelines I would hope they might consider:

1) No a priori State violence. Threatening, caging, or killing someone because they might do something you don't like makes no moral sense.

2) Consequences fall upon the individual. No "social safety net" violently extracted from citizens should pay for such a person. (Private charities however are free to enable our drug user.... sigh.)

3) Profiling permitted. Meth would seem like a reasonable predictor of bad future behavior and should alert authorities of a higher likelihood of violent behavior.

4) Individuals allowed protection. Gun ownership permits individuals to protect themselves should something happen, rather than the government owning guns allowing only after-murder reports to be filed. (A prioi constraint is needed much more with a populace unable to defend itself.)

5) Consequences for violence. Currently prisons are primarily for non-violence and leniency is confused. Violence should not be excused.

Don't Vote For Ron Paul for anything less than
Re[love]ution & Renaissance
Dennis

SFTS's picture

The War on Drugs facilitated designer drugs

Some would argue drug prohibition of conventional substances such as cocaine, marijuana, opium, heroin, LSD, etc. actually facilitated the invention of drugs like meth, crack, "rave drugs", etc. I've always referred to these types of drugs as "bathtub gin" of drug prohibition.

It's the End of the Line for Ron Paul and his supporters
http://youtu.be/OmtlqB0x59Y

Good questions about drugs

1) To be clear, because there is not authority in the Constitution for the government to control "dangerous" drugs, he wants to honor the (10th Amendment to the) Constitution, reserving drug laws to the states, or to the poeople.

2) I believe he would thus be pardoning for Federal sentences, not for state sentences. He may well want to pardon for immoral State sentences, but the principle of States' Rights will be important to him to underline that he is likely not to blur the line.

3) Your concerns about who and when should largely be targeted to the state you live in. We'd have 50 states with varying laws -- as we do about prostitution.

Don't Vote For Ron Paul for anything less than
Re[love]ution & Renaissance
Dennis