Second thoughts on Iraq

nope.

we are simply holding back a civil war. sadam was able to keep a moderate level of peace by simply killing the opposition if they spoke up.

regardless of what we do, there are two groups of people who disagree on some very big issues. some Sunnies and Shiites can live together, some can't. its not our place to decide how they should govern or how they should resolve this. some will take to killing, others will take to democracy. either way, one of the ideas has to dominate before there can ever be any idea of peace.

simply putting a band aid on a festering sore, doesn't make it better. you have to clean it out before it will ever be healed. how the Iraqi's want to do the cleaning should be left up to them, as a free people.

I believe that many of the instances of "sectarian violence" in Iraq are actually controlled and manipulated by various interest groups. And their reporting also can be dialed up or dialed down.

(the surge is working, and all that baloney)

The issue is cost not only in lives, but in dollars. The Empire wants to transfer the fighting to Blackwater and keep our soldiers and bases in relatively secluded outposts, for many, many years.

Pull the european and Asian forces first
Negotiate wit the UN and Arab league to get into Iraq

THEN

leave-

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Sure, I see your point.... HOWEVER.... the biggest problem in Iraq has always been and continues to be a complete lack of POLITICAL organization. i don't disagree that if we stay there long enough, we can reduce the violence but then it just continues to be an occupation. Iraqis have failed to step up and organize their government even now that things are a bit calmer (relatively speaking) than it was six or twelve months ago. pulling out or at least beginning to pull out would force their hand... if they can't get it together then, they won't ever get it together.

That's what Iraq costs on a good day. Maybe more by some estimates. How do you wrap your mind around that? It's crazy. That on top of all the other reason why we should get out mentioned below.

This is one soldier's first hand account of his experience in Iraq. He has served his tour of duty and unwaveringly supports Ron Paul and his efforts to pull out of iraq immediately.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uk-T46soz8

And, FYI - the number of views just updated! The number went from 7900 - 23,000!! Keep it going!

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/F22B4D85-59F6-4778-8E...

An Illegal war, where do we go from there. Did we (I guess Democrats) Not win on the assumption that they would get us out of the war? What happened there? Oh sorry I forgot the Rep. are stonewalling. Never mind.

An Illegal war, where do we go from there. Did we (I guess Democrats) Not win on the assumption that they would get us out of the war? What happened there? Oh sorry I forgot the Rep. are stonewalling. Never mind.

Us troops left Iraq (soon to come I hope)??? Peace was restored upon their departure... at least one Iraqi thinks so in this interview transcript http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/vincent200412160838.asp

What IF in Iraq we are improving...do we still pullout and upset the balance?

What you think of getting out of Other countries and extending our time in Iraq by a little bit more.

You are asking a hypothetical question--The reality of what has happened, and what is currently happening makes your question moot. People have died, and are still dying and the survivors won't forget nor forgive. It's a mess, and no amount of money nor blood spilled is going to make it "better". Our view of "improving" and the Iraqi's view are two different things.That's the problem with this war/occupation--"Improvement" is a relative thing when you are in the White House getting a "percentage" handed to you by an accountant. With percentages, you can say, "Gee, the number of deaths have gone down 50%--Let's hang in there." But people are not percentages---- They are dying as we speak ! Anyone who seriously thinks they can control or predict the effects of war are delusional. In the Vietnam war, the generals used body counts as a means to measure that we were "winning" We know how well that worked!

Study history. Study military conflicts. You will find there is nothing unique in what we are going through or doing. That means if we continue to " stay the course"we will reap the same results--Failure.

_________________________________________

"No matter how cynical you get, it's impossible to keep up!"

--Lily Tomlin

most donations from military - think about WHY!

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Curiosity killed the cat. Here it kills much more than a cat.

The war in Iraq was sold to us with false information. The area is more dangerous now than when we entered it. We destroyed a regime hated by our direct enemies, the jihadists, and created thousands of new recruits for them. This war has cost more than 3,000 American lives, thousands of seriously wounded, and hundreds of billions of dollars.

Refocus on securing America and bring the troops home.

The kind of thinking you are espousing comes down to a Daddy/Mommy attitude of the leaders in the USA. It is an arrogant, dangerous attitude that strikes at the heart of world problems.

This belief that one country, superior to another - has the right to strike out/interfere/judge in any other country it chooses is EVIL and WRONG. Of course if the USA pulls out, more people will die - more people will die of the troops stay also so the whole "logic" that now we are "Winning" so we should stay is moot. Winning or Losing has NOTHING TO DO with this war.
NOTHING.

It is an ILLEGAL, UNDECLARED, EVIL WAR. Regardless of the results it is wrong. Probably over 1 million people have died because the HEROIC USA decided that it needed to PURIFY Iraq of EEEEEEEEEEEEVIL Saddam. Remember that please in all sincerity next time you parrot those kinds of views, thank you. (I'm not angry but you gave me a soft ball so I blasted it)

What do we know about Iraq and how do we know it?

What we know is what we have been told by whom? The Media. And Politicians. Remember, they don't tell you the truth about everything, so I tend to listen to soldiers and people who at least seem to be telling the truth. I'm sure you saw the latest youtube today by a soldier defending Ron Paul's stance on leaving Iraq.

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I was in Iraq in 2004-2005. I was skeptical about how bad Saddam Hussein was, since the Old Media lies about everything else. I spoke with many Iraqis. Saddam had a definite following. He took good care of his friends. Unfortunately, he was suspicious of everyone else. He would turn on innocent people, accusing them of plotting against him. I spoke with Iraqis who had fingers or ears cut off. He had people tortured and killed. At the same time, there was very little street crime.

After Saddam's downfall, Iraqis no longer had to worry about the knock at the door at 3 o'clock in the morning. Instead, they had to worry about terrorists and criminals. Sometimes, it was hard to determine which was which. If you had money, or a nice car, someone would try to steal it, and maybe kill you for it. I had a friend who was kidnapped. His family had to pay a ransom to get him back.

Iraqis are reluctant to go out. They avoid crowds, because some terrorist may try to set off a bomb. I asked them why they don't report someone running with an RPG-7. They told me that they don't trust their police. They don't trust their own military. Terrorists sometimes wear police or military uniforms. More than one Iraqi told me that they were better off under Saddam.

It was a mistake for us to get involved in Iraq, and countless other foreign wars. The longer we stay, the better case we make for the terrorists. They are able to recruit because we are seen as an occupying power. I got along very well with the Iraqis. I felt I was a guest in their country (even though they hadn't invited me).

Besides the fact that we are involved in wars that don't concern us, we have to contend with what has gone on in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, as well as the conduct of Blackwater. These factors have made us the most hated nation on Earth.

We need to withdraw from Iraq, and the rest of the countries we are involved in. Our politicians are generating hatred against our nation. They are the ones who are making us the target of terrorists.

We are accomplishing nothing by being in these countries, other than making a few people in this country very rich. It is not in the interest of the American people, nor the interest of the people of these other nations. We need to adopt the traditional American foreign policy advocated by Ron Paul. We can trade with other nations, visit them, their people can visit here. But we need to refrain from their wars. As George Washington said, beware of foreign entanglements. So there you have it, George Washington, Ron Paul and me, all saying the same thing. How can you argue whith that?

Let's say your next door neighbor is overweight to the point that his poor health is literally threatening his own life.
So you go next door and threaten to beat him every week that he fails to improve his health.
You do this same "favor" for several of your neighbors because you really want them to experience the same good health that you experience all the time.

Now, lets re- word your question for this situation...

What IF at my next door neighbor's we are improving...do we still pullout and upset the balance?

What you think of getting out of Other neighbor's lives and extending our time in my next door neighbor's by a little bit more.

Just curious

I think Iraq is more peaceful because they have confirmation that the political mood here in the USA favors a pullout. Most people listened to Petraeus and Bush's follow-on speech and heard that we could bring the troop level down. If that was true here in the USA, then I bet it was true in Iraq. In that way, RP and the Democrats have already saved a lot of lives over there.

On the political question, I say let Bush and Petraeus take all the credit they want, as long as the direction is getting out of the country. They basically armed and paid people who four months ago were Baathists and Al Qaeda. You want to make points yelling about that, or just get out?

I'm libertarian but I'd rather see a Republican in the White House than a Democrat. Socialized healthcare is repugnant to me. So I've considered going Republican NO MATTER WHAT. And I've tried to reconcile myself with what's going on in Iraq. But to no avail. We never should have went in. Being on the Arab peninsula puts our lives in jeopardy because the terrorists won't give up while we're there. Ever. Plus the cost in lives and money is just too great to sustain and we have no idea when this is ever going to end. War is the health of the state. Which is why I've abandoned the rest of the Republican field completely. My vote will be a write-in if need be, but in all likelihood I don't think it'll come to that.

In "Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre", an ex-Marine says that he is certain that the military was ordered to wait until after the 2004 presidential election before they used White Phosphorous in Fallujah, which has the same effect to the human body as napalm (extreme burning, which is why napalm has been banned by the military.) The bottom line is that we should always be suspicious regarding good news from the front line when it is coming right before an election. These war mongers have proven they are willing to manipulate the tragic truth about Iraq (600,000 dead civilians) for their political gain.

A member of my family works in Army Intelligence in Tikrit - his take:

we ARE the "imbalance". They want their country back. Our boys aren't fighting "islamic fascists", they're fighting the common man, who is tired of having American tanks in their backyard and is Patriotic enough, in spite all they've been through, to pick up a rifle and fight US for it.

It won't end UNTIL we leave.

Who says it's any better in Iraq now? Think about that.