-74 votes

Ron Paul Wrong for Once - Contraception

Often times, I look up to Ron Paul because he embodies the good parts of being a republican and turns his back on the bad parts. In the case of his contraception statement (and the republican stance overall)I do not agree with this at all, and in fact, find it rediculous on so many levels...
1) This does not, in any way whatsoever infringe on religious freedoms. This decision does not stop any persons right to practice any religion they choose. Providing contraception in a health plan has absolutely no bearing on a individuals choice to be catholic.

2)What it does do is give someone the option to access something if they choose. If the Church (who is not an individual and has no RIGHT to anything, it is its people that do) is against contraception, it is their job to explain and preach to its congregation why it shouldnt morally be used, not force anything upon them or have the power to create or change law.

3) There are a great number of non-catholics who work in catholic hospitals. These people are there because they want to help people and because its a job for them. There is no reason that these good people should be denied anything from a plan that they pay into and would otherwise be offered.

4) There is no insurance plan where you pick and choose all the services offered on the plan. There a a few options on an insurance plan and you get the whole package. Do you think that I (being a male), would want to pay for birth control pill if it were an option? Ofcourse not. But thats the point of an insurance plan. I dont have that option. This isnt an issue of why should the catholic church have to pay for something they dont want. Its an issue of why should the catholic church be given additional privelidges that no other person or group has, the privelige to pick and choose what it wants out of a plan that is otherwise set. This law isnt saying, catholics much offer controception and others dont. Its saying that every insurance plan offers this in the first place. So because there rightly should be a separation of church and state, the church doesn't get special priveliges that others dont to dictate what they want just because some priest has a god complex and thinks its his job to not just preach morals (which it is) but to force people and goverments to do what they want.

5) Simply put, the church isnt required to pass around condoms at the door. The dont actually have to DO anything. They just can't deny people something they would otherwise get if they chose.

Now I think many of us here would be in agreement that maybe the govt shouldnt be in the healthcare business in the first place. But currently, it is, and that is not this discussion.

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This is an assault on

This is an assault on religious liberty and the first amendment. I am happy to say that many other faiths are behind the CC regarding this matter.

The heart of the matter, whether you believe in birth control or not, is whether the government can force a religious organization to provide a service that they do not espouse. I believe that the reason many other faiths are behind this is because they know the ramifications if this becomes law...step by step.
I have heard so many distractions from the crux of this matter, from women's rights, population control, all the advantages that birth control provides, clergy abuse, and downright hate of the catholic church. Understand, the church is not preventing or forcing anyyone in their employ from getting birth control from another source. They are not asking anyone to sign a statement that they will be fired if they find out they chose to use birth control.

Obama made a political "accommodation" to pass the cost onto the insurance company, problem is it is still forcing the church to provide a service that is against their teaching and this will still be a fight.

@fishyculture

If the only hospitals in your area are Catholic, you better hope that contraceptives are not covered by this mandate. This past Sunday, I think for the first time since I don't know when the entire Catholic Church which I attend seemed in agreement, that Catholic Hospitals should shut down if this mandate stands. That is very rare indeed at the church which I attend, usually the progressives sit on one side, the conservatives on another but everyone from the pastors down to the $hitbowl scrubbers(myself) were in agreement, and everyone else who attends other churches seemed to agree.

No- That is Precisely the Discussion

"the govt shouldnt be in the healthcare business in the first place..."

Wrong question.

when it comes to women's issue you can almost count on

them defending it 9 out of 10 times one way or another, trampling another person's rights in the process or not-- somebody else's money, somebody else's medical equipment, somebody else's expertise, somebody else's personnel. you can almost always count on them wanting to freeload a slice no matter what most of the time. sad but true.

Health insurance is to

Health insurance is to provide for when you are physically ill or suffered an injury and need medical help.

Contraception has nothing to do with that- and is based on a completely conscious decision of what can happen during sex(pregnancy- the very purpose of the sperm and egg's existence). Go spend your own dollars on something like that(Me and my woman do, and yeah its expensive so what, this is the choice you make).

This isn't even an important issue really. I mean seriously contraception is such a big deal that the government had to get involved to put a stop to it? Who the hell cares this is a complete distraction. Drug war, war on terror- those 2 things alone are a bajillion times more important and the government won't do anything to stop that.

WRONG!

i don't even need to argue you because you're so wrong, listen to what the good doc said again, he proves you wrong in his short statement. he explains why you don't have a choice to pay/not pay for birth control when in fact you should. He explains why companies are buying the health care instead of you and why those who work in catholic institutions are stuck when they shouldn't be. Learn liberty from someone who knows it, not a talking head. We need to free medicine from tyranny, not get sucked into supporting the devil because we somehow think we DESERVE contraception coverage. Use free market solutions. besides if you're a qualified worker you can negotiate your compensation package, tell them you want cash instead of health care, then go buy your own. the government is NEVER the answer

In a nutshell...

In a nutshell, NOBODY should be forced to pay ANYONE ELSE'S bills!

Freedom is my Worship Word!

Where I live there are 2 Catholic hospitals.

That is all. Don't want Catholic healthcare? Drive a few hundred miles. Catholic hospitals would not do hysterectomies at one time, I don't know if that is still the case, but allowing them to have a monopoly on healthcare facilities and then force their religious practices on the patients is not cool.

Love or fear? Chose again with every breath.

I really wish...

I really wish that people would learn the difference between health care and medical care. They're two very different things. Health care doesn't have to cost one red cent! Eat right, get enough exercise, get enough sleep, don't do stupid stunts where you injure yourself, get a first aid kit and learn how to use it, and so on.

In other words, if you do your own health care, you should have no need for medical care.

Freedom is my Worship Word!

wrong

that is not what this country is founded on, were this a free market still then someone like you who sees a deficiency would come in and build a new hospital if the demand was large enough. in a govt run system where it forces rules on people there is far less incentive to go and build a hospital in a small region where you'll be forced to operate your business as you are told to. the answer is NEVER more mandates from the government, rather less and private industry will fill the holes if there is enough demand

He is not wrong

Property rights and religious freedom are at stake here. Someone chooses to work for a religious institution and that means they agree to abide by its beliefs. If the religious institution does not want to pay for health insurance that provides birth control, they have a perfect legal right not to.

Who cares? I never even go to the doctor or have health insurance. Why? They waste my money completely. They force me to get the kind of care I deplore and the only treatment options are synthetic drugs and surgery. THAT is not health care. That is emergency intervention.
So, my rights are being violated because I want insurance that covers real medicine. So I pay for my health care.

People can pay for their contraceptives. I mean, really! They can go to Planned Parenthood if they can't afford them. Besides the oral contraceptive creates other health problems long term that will cost the insurer even more money. Who wants that?

I really can't believe you don't get this fundamental issue. AND this is just an entering wedge. Just like TSA. They take a way one right at a time and before you know it, you only get what the state approves.

Healthnut4freedom

The lip of truth shall be established forever: but a lying tongue is but for a moment...Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are His delight. Prov 12:19,22

I am in medicine

I am in medicine now and I remember when I used to work as a pharmacy technician (while I worked in retail pharmacy) that basic birth control (Norgestimate and Ethinyl Estradiol, ie. TriSprintec) is $9 a month at some of the big box store pharmacies. $9. That's it. The consumer can definitely afford that as it's cheaper than like 90% of copays. Now, that BC is not for everyone. Some patients need different (see: expensive) hormones (as birth control pills) for other conditions and not for sole contraceptive use. But get gov't out of medicine entirely and those prices will plummet.

Ron Paul is right about this issue. But, imo, he's off about abortion in general. Having said that, I am still voting RON PAUL no matter what.

And I think the catholic church (which I grew up with) is a dangerous, irresponsible, and wretched institution. That being said, it, nor should any organization be forced to pay fr anything.

We can only be kept in the cages we do not see. - Stefan Molyneux

You are a function of what the whole universe is doing in the same way that a wave is a function of what the whole ocean is doing. - Alan Watts

abortion

his political stance on abortion is 100% correct, perhaps you disagree with his personal stance, but there is a difference.

True. I should have clarified.

My bad.

We can only be kept in the cages we do not see. - Stefan Molyneux

You are a function of what the whole universe is doing in the same way that a wave is a function of what the whole ocean is doing. - Alan Watts

Ron Paul may be wrong

on a couple of issues but this ain't one of them. I have no love for the catholic church but how they run their business is their own business. They are not forcing their policy on you or me and the government should not force your policy on them.

I Find This Thread And Most Comments Here Deeply Disturbing

From the perspective of liberty.

The Roman Catholic church gets its financing and support from the millions of people that freely choose to believe in and associate with it. Brainwashed or not, it's their fundamental right to choose what to believe in.

That financing supports beliefs - like helping the poor or needy. Other beliefs are against contraception.

It is absolutely the government's fault that you have to get health care insurance from your employer in a packaged deal. Still, the fact is that you have the freedom to choose which job you want to work. Part of that choice is comfort with what they offer you.

If they won't pay their money to your contraception, then you save the money they put into your paycheck, and pay for it yourself - or get another job.

Any other argument is socialist, fascist, statist, or totalitarian.

"What if they can't get a job anywhere else?"
"Brainwashing religions should have no rights; matter to be judged and enforced by the state."
"Employers don't get to choose the compensation for their employees - there are rights that must be met in terms of compensation - but employers can conduct business mostly as they see fit"

See? Ron Paul is totally right this time.

Don't let the progressives infiltrate your mind. There is only one direction they want to take people, and it's away from liberty.

Actually, it doesn't

The Roman Catholic church gets its financing and support from the millions of people that freely choose to believe in and associate with it.

Actually, it doesn't. Well, in the US maybe, but not in Europe. And the Catholic Church is a global organisation.

In Germany for instance, the government handles church tax collection for the churches (so not paying church taxes becomes tax evasion). The collected taxes are distributed between the catholic and protestant congretions according to some rule I don't recall at the moment.

So all tax payers finance the tax collection for, among others, the Catholic church.

These taxes have even been collected on non-church members (more than half of the german population). Until recently (a few years) for instance, they were deducted automatically from everyone's unemployment benefits -- the truly Orwellian rationale for this having been that it was "too difficult to figure out" who was a church member and who wasn't (that data is available to the gov't).

For the record.

You got it. Surprising there

You got it. Surprising there is so much debate here.

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Here Here!

...let's not forget the difference between a right and an "entitlement." A right is always a right to be free from one or another form of coercion. You have a right to your property and your life, which means you have a right to be free from violence against your person or your property.

An "entitlement" is a "right" to some other person's property; i.e. a right for you to use violence (or have the government use violence on your behalf) to violate the property rights of another. All entitlements are inherently criminal: malum in se.

"Alas! I believe in the virtue of birds. And it only takes a feather for me to die laughing."

STOP ROBBING ME TO PAY FOR WARS & BULLSH*T!!!

If any program should be paid for by the Gov it should be housing--the basic of all necessities--and look at where that got us. Socialism doesn't work--unless you're the bankers/corporation sucking us dry.

So no, Ron Paul was right/is right/still right.

Get educated.

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Would the Catholic church

rather women have abortions than offer birth control??

A reading of Humanae vitae is in order...

No- particularly because the Catholic Church realizes that birth control *causes* abortions in many cases(look up chemical abortions, and also the statistics for women who get abortions b/c their contraception failed), also birth control has adverse side effects such as cancer, blood clots, it is polluting the water supply...

There are several other logical, moral and theological reasons to be opposed to birth control (Read Humanae vitae to see what was predicted would occur in society with the widespread use of birth control...teaser: divorce, infidelity, women treated like meat, pornography, increase of abortions,overall degrading of human person and particularly of women, increasingly immoral society... www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_...

So you see it is not an issue of the Catholic Church being illogical or wanting to "control" women. In reality the Catholic Church actually cares for the overall well-being and health of women more than any org. that is trying to push birth control on a woman. Also, for a woman who needs to prevent pregnancy- NFP is MORE effective than birth control (but not as effective as abstinence:).

Ron Paul's point...

..is simply that all interactions in society ought to be voluntary.

In such a free society, these difficult questions never arise in the first place. No organization is compelled to provide a service against its will. If it choose not to provide a service demanded by its customers, it does so at the risk of losing business, which risk it is free to take if it pleases. The business has no right to compel customers to buy its services, and the customer has no right to compel the business to provide services. They will reach a mutually beneficial agreement, or they will not do business. Simple.

The desire not to follow a regulation on religious grounds is not special; it should be protected neither more nor less than the desire not to follow a regulation on economic grounds, or on any other grounds whatsoever. The simple solution to these problems is not to somehow balance the rights of special groups (religious, ethnic, whatever) against the need for the State to coerce compliance with some regulation that is supposedly in the interest of the "common good." The solution is to eliminate all such State intervention, in which case there is no need for these debates about special exceptions to the rule, because there is no rule in the first place.

To summarize: compelling Catholics to provide contraception isn't especially wrong - compelling anyone to do anything is wrong per se.

"Alas! I believe in the virtue of birds. And it only takes a feather for me to die laughing."

Yes it does, because...

it impacts the cost of the premium the company has to pay for yet another service. Imagine if they had to pay for the right to have an abortion on their policy.

Stance is right, government intervention is wrong.

"catholic" isn't Roman Catholic

The Romanists are the ones mostly upset with this stuff. Please make a distinction between RC's and Protestants.

When people talk about "the church" they typically mean the Roman Catholic church which some still regard in the same way as Calvin, Luther and Rutherford did.

Frankly I find it laughable that the RC's would complain about this stuff. Their "priests" and "Nuns" sure don't need it. But, since RC is a ponzie scheme which historically encouraged large families so they could fleece them for more money and corrupt their souls, I'm not surprised.

On a more pleasant note....I thought this Obama Socialist medical insurance was all over with?

I see anti-Catholic bigotry...

is alive and well. It's the only acceptable bigotry tolerated in these United States.

Minnesota Mary

bigotry?

Don't get so upset. I too consider the roman church to have been started by one of the apostles...so please, "Mary", don't get too upset.

The only difference between you and me, probably, is that particular apostle was Judas Iscariot and not Peter.

Oh...c'mon...you know it's funny!

My Tricare doesn't cover chiropractic.

I spend $90 a month on my chiropractic care. Tricare is for military retirees, who are more likely to require chiropractic than the general population. Yet, Medicare does cover chiropractic. Nobody compels anyone to work for a Catholic facility. If you want contraceptive aids, buy them yourself.

tasmlab's picture

Consumer product?

Separate the point that the original poster is making about Ron Paul's answer, contraception could easily just be a consumer product like band-aids and aspirin and condoms and this fight could be about wether Wall-Mart or CVS carries them.

Currently consuming: Gatto: "Underground history of education..", FDR; Wii U; NEP Football

Contraception IS insurance

so how can one buy insurance to pay for insurance?

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)