Converting pro-war neighbors
Submitted by David Infinger on Sat, 02/11/2012 - 10:28I have already told many of you about my neighbor who believes the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and Libya were good wars, but nothing prepared me for what I was going to get to listen to when I went out to eat a few days ago with my wife.
We sat down to eat and this sweet old lady came over to talk to us; she was upset about what Obama was doing to this Country so I realize this would be a great time to mention Dr. Ron Paul. Little did I know that she was not a Ron Paul fan but was a big Santorum supporter.
I mentioned to her how many women and children were killed in Iraq and Libya and her response to me was, "we got to kill them because they want to kill us!" This blew me away, I had just told this women that we killed over a million women and children in Iraq and the response I get is, we got to kill them because they want to kill us.
I tried to explain there were over 60 million people in Iran, so if we start bombing, many women and children are going to be killed and again she said, "that's good because they want to kill us." Now this women was no Spring chicken so I was surprised how calloused she was to the killing of so many innocent women and children. I tried to think of something that I could say to someone like this so it would show them the error of their ways
I was sitting here and it came to me, what would people say if you told them we needed to kill the children of convicts because statistically it shows that many of these convicts children are going to grow up and kill people or how about the children of wife beaters, don't many of the boys in these families grow up to beat their wives?
We need only to look at inner cities and if we are going to use this logic, shouldn't we demand all inner city women who are pregnant abort their children?
Then we need only to go to Europe and see how many Europeans who were killed in the last Century were done by Europeans. Well using her logic, wouldn't it be a good idea to sterilize the entire population in Europe? I mean if the litmus test is they want to kill us too so we should kill them first, then where do you draw the line?
It may be me but I am starting to think these people who want to go to war with Iran want to kill everyone they dislike; they believe that if someone or some group of people dislike them and hate them, these people should be taken out and killed.
So the next time someone tells me we should kill Iranians because they want to kill us, my question to them will be, does it matter why they hate us? Does it matter we have been in their Country killing their people and forcing them to buy our worthless currency? If that doesn't matter, then what boundaries should we put on ourselves when it comes to killing people.
You can ask her to apply her
You can ask her to apply her own logic:
"You as an American want to kill them. By your logic that means they have got to kill Americans because Americans want to kill them."
Let it not be said that we did nothing.-Ron Paul
Stand up for what you believe in, even if you stand alone.-Sophia Magdalena Scholl
Perhaps there is a sweet old
Perhaps there is a sweet old lady somewhere in Iraq or Libya that when asked about Americans says "we have to kill them because they want to kill us!" And for each American killed she says, "that's good because they want to kill us."
And in her country she is voting for Rickhad Santorahjad.
Why does she and others like her develop such mindset? What is the source? What activites may have fostered such thoughts? What bothers them?
Well there is a pretty good chance that they hate being bombed. They hate being occupied. They hate being told what to do. They hate foreign bases in their nation. They hate foreign governments placing missiles, and military bases, and naval fleets off their borders and shores. They hate foreign governments and money distorting and influencing and dictating their internal politics. They hate foreign governments running covert operations within their nation to manipulate their elections, foster discord, arm violent factions, and attempt “regime change.” They hate foreign governments and money propping up dictators and puppet governments over them. They hate foreign governments violating their borders and national sovereignty by sending troops or drones into their nation to spy, or assassinate their residents with impunity with no charges, no presentation of evidence, no vetting and testing of evidence, no due process, no verdicts, no rule of law whatsoever. They hate when a foreign government dictates to them that they must sell oil for dollars and no other currency, and with whom they may trade. They hate when their buildings are blown up, when their wedding parties are bombed, when houses are broken into, when families and children and innocents are killed by mistake – oops, when their utilities are shut off, when their imports are cutoff, when their ports are blockaded, when their travel is restricted, when their prices are forced so high by these and other acts that they can no longer afford to properly care for their family and themselves.
Would this lady hate each of those things if done to the USA? Would we not expect Americans to hate each of these things were they being done to America? Wouldn’t we expect it the patriotic duty of every American to resist such activities were America subject to such despotic bullying by foreign powers? Would not frustrated Americans resort to extreme measures, even self-sacrifice, in defense of America against such despotic behavior – perhaps even to a far greater extent than is seen in other nations? Wouldn’t it be self-defense for Americans to resist such activities by foreign governments? Wouldn’t they be patriotic Americans, even heroes for resisting such foreign intrusion in defense of American sovereignty? Well than, isn’t it also patriotic for when others oppose and resist such bulling by foreign powers in defense of their own nation’s sovereignty?
Let it not be said that we did nothing.-Ron Paul
Stand up for what you believe in, even if you stand alone.-Sophia Magdalena Scholl
Thank you
for changing the title, this one is much better :-)
If you think there is any hope
try to find some slighty more open-minded people who will respond to the truths of liberty, free market economy, curtailing income tax, and doing what the troops want, which is to stop those endless deployements and come home.
I had success with one old starchy fellow, fundamentalist in his Christianity, who said, "Well, I like Paul BUT I just don't like what he's doing with Foreign Policy; I'm really against him, there; dont' agree." I asked him, "What do you think his foreign policy is?" He responded, "He wants to weaken our national defenses, and I believe we need to be strong. He wants to evicerate the Pentagon and our military."
I said, "If we really care about the troops, shouldn't we do what our troops want? They are sick of the multiple deployments. They are coming home injured and mentally disturbed; even killing themselves, even their families." Of all the candidates combined "They give more money and votes for Dr. Paul than the rest--if we care about them, shouldn't we do what they want?" and "That's what happened to the Roman Empire; they spread themselves all over; look what happened to them; that's not strong defense."
"The troops have said it correctly. They want to come home and keep us strong by pointing their guns outward, not invading a bunch of countries overseas." Plus, "at least he follows the Constitution, which doesn't allow declaring war without Congressional consent. No one else will follow the Constitution. Shouldn't we have the one may who does that?"
He agreed, "I want a man who will follow the Constitution." I reiterated, "Only Paul will do that. The others already said they don't agree with it."
Next Objection: "But what about the drugs. He wants to legalize marijuana." I said, "We both know long-term use of marijuana is poisonous; it poisons the brain. He never said anything about legalizing it. What he said is to let the states regulate it and stop this horribly expensive war on drugs. All he said is to let the states make the decision. And let me ask you, 'If a person is sick and dying on a wheelchair in chronic pain, and they benefit from medical marijuana--you know, in ancient Greece and in the Islaamic Empire medical marijuana was used to sedate people for surgery and even to keep the asleep for up to seven days after surgery, for recovery--should we deny this to him? That's all Dr. Paul is saying."
I also told him that Dr. Paul is a kind man, who is devout, but keeps his faith private.
The man, some 70-years old, agreed with me on all these issues. He agreed to support Dr. Paul as a constitutional candidate. He agreed to pass out SuperBrochures and to receive emails. I will keep working with him.
You are right. We must somehow answer their objections. If you need help showing that the Muslims are not the enemy, let me know: I will email you some helpful information and even some tools to use for those who say "Islaam is evil", a belief which endangers us all: drkersearch@hotmail.com
On the whole I think your
On the whole I think your responses were good but with respect to the drug issue I have recently noticed many Paul supporters making timid, even misleading statements to convince conservatives that Paul is with them on drugs. Specifically, by focusing only on the fact that Paul says drug legalisation is a matter for the states to decide, Paul's supporters seek to sidestep objections to Paul's pro freedom stance on drugs. In fact Paul has on many occasions made it very clear that, although he personally disapproves of drug use, he also absolutely defends the right of every individual to choose to take drugs without fear of legal repercussion. Too many Paul supporters conceal Paul's commitment to the personal liberty aspect of drug use. While yes, marijuana has good therapeutic uses Paul's campaign is about advocating for a free society. We should not shrink from upholding that moral foundation of freedom in all its applications. That said, I applaud you being able to persuade a doubter to not only reconsider his opposition to Paul but to support actively support him.
I also agree it is extremely important to dissuade people from the knee jerk anti-Muslimism that pervades the western world. I have a brother-in-law, who is a cop, who at a large family gathering was mouthing off on how he'd like to nuke all Muslim countries and wouldn't care if they were all killed. Sadly, I have heard a few co-workers utter similar evil statements. In the case of my brother-in-law I don't think he has even ever known a Muslim. I told him I thank God his opinion has no influence on policy and that what he is really saying is that he would like to go down as the greatest mass murderer in history. Even so, several family members agreed with him. What can we do but keep on fighting the ignorance?
marlow
No he is not wrong
And you should tell that lady "No, they don't hate us, they hate you and the reason is apparent."
That woman is just an idiot..
That woman is just an idiot.. she needs to travel. She probably hasn't even seen a muslim in real life. They don't hate Americans, that's ridiculous. They hate the western governments for constant meddling in their affairs, taking down democratic governments, propping up dictators, bombing people, setting up army bases.. that sort of thing. The big wars are just the tip of the iceberg there and it's been going on since the colonial days.
Funny that comes from a Santorum supporter.. if there's ONE candidate that has A LOT in common with the Muslim Brotherhood. Different religion, same brand of conservatism.
Freedom Broadcasting Network - independent grassroots network
www.fbn.tv
Just my opinion
but.... I really dislike so many of the negative post titles that keep showing up all of the time. There are better ways to word things without making it look like we question our own candidate. Everything we write is on the web for the world to read. Just my two cents.
It would be nice if people stopped playing head games
I find provocative titles like these to be a insult to my psyche. I clicked it, now I wish I didn't because I found no relation to Ron Paul and the article.
Update: I see the title is now changed, thank you.
Real eyes realize real lies
2012, we want our country back
2012 is the year for Ron Paul!
Logic
She hates Iranians because they are oppressed by a government that is at odds with the government that oppresses her. How can you argue with that logic?
there is the morality approach, then there is the utilitarian
approach, or at least how i see it. morality approach doesn't work exactly on these types of people. you need to figure out whether utilitarian argument or a moral argument works better on the individual you talk to.
an utilitarian argument would have been a discussion of how to solve the middle eastern problem in the long run--have their living standard rise so people no longer join extremists to feed their families. the other way would be to carry out a whole semi-continental genocide and kill every single one, which we all know isn't feasible. the inhumanity and the amount of nuclear weapon that is going to require will kill us all in the process. the longer we prevent someone from owning a plasma tv and sit in a living room too comfortably to join suicide bombing and pray to koran, the longer the cycle of violence will continue.
something along those lines--you need to figure out an utilitarian argument, when moral argument fails.
They kill us because of our ideals
This was in another forum where I addressed this infantile idea. It was regarding this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lvLZ-...
. Comment by State of Jefferson yesterday Delete Comment
Great vid and some very good points. But I have a problem with his assertion that they are fighting us because what we believe. The idea that people are going to readily blow themselves up because they hate our principles or ideas is infantile. It's like saying that the Japanese flew kamikazi missions into our ships because they hated our principles. Really? No, It was a tactic of desperation they were using to try to BEAT us. No different for those in the middle east. They are low tech and want to win this undeclared conflict. Sure there are the diehard believers who swallow all kinds of drivel from their mullahs and will kill from things born from their ideology but to make the assertion that our actions do not result in consequences flies in the face of reality. If you bombed my children or raided my home how is easy do you think it would be for me take up arms against you? Strategically, to demonize one's enemy is to fundamentally misunderstand your enemy. I don't mean we have to understand them so we can hold hands, no understand them so we may undermine them and their cause. If we predicate our actions on fundemental misunderstandings or misreadings of our enemy, we will not accomplish what we set out to do and we wil make our situation worse.
you are taking the wrong angle on this
don't talk about numbers killed. In part because there are no statistics that anybody can agree on. Let's try to be honest here - Hezbollah made things up (and were caught a few times) when fighting Israel in Lebanon not long ago. We were told of 'humanitarian disaster' 'slaughters' in Libya. Now the same with Syria and was same with Iraq. Remember that one side has an interest to wildly inflate the figures, the other to minimize them. Where the truth lies is anybodys guess.
The best route to get an 'understanding' on Iran is to point out that Iraq took 8 years and was hardly the model for success we had hoped for. We are now in Afghanistan for 10+ years and things aren't exactly peachy there. Iran is over twice the size of the combined Iraq+Afghanistan with terrain more similar in difficulty to Afghanistan. Regime change (a minimun necessary even if you really do destroy all nuclear related facilities) is going to involve a large number of ground troops and occupation. How long is an impossible question to answer based on the other two wars. Knowing all that, and knowing that the cost will be hundreds of billions, if not over a trillion bucks, do you still really really want to take on Iran? Or are you better off with a containment strategy? We live every day with the Norks and Paks having nukes (and far better ability to deliver them.. somewhere...)
gedankenexperiment.dk views on finance, politics and science
such people's brains are frozen by fear,
and their hearts are ice to anyone outside their personal spheres. While I regard most people as salvageable through education,those who consciously embrace evil, despite all rational moral arguments, do not deserve gentle, polite discussion.
I slam into them to maximize any guilt receptors still alive in their minds, with heavy heavy doses of the many sins they support. Give no quarter. Shock treatment is called for in the worst cases. They must discover that their views have strayed outside the boundaries of civilized discourse. Or publicly exclude them from social interaction and make sure they understand exactly why they are being ostracized.
Maybe
But is he also right?!
http://youtu.be/DFl0i5VRwhQ
When Fascism goes to sleep, it checks under the bed for Ron Paul!
Murdering innocents is accepted so widely.
When war comes to this shore, and it will have to because eventually the world will tire of our killing their families, how can they complain when their families are murdered. You did it to them, so turn-around's fair game.
Don't Vote For Ron Paul for anything less than
Re[love]ution & Renaissance
Dennis
You know who I hate?
You know who I hate? The Swiss.
Bunch of cowardly neutral fence sitters if you ask me. I think we should start a war with them just so that they would have to take sides.
I know your being sarcastic
I know your being sarcastic but I was thinking this way too. One argument used is it’s our moral responsibility to fight tyrannies around the world, and if we are passive we must therefore be morally culpable to others’ crimes. But then the Swiss are the worst people on the face of the earth by this standard. They haven’t fought a war in over 200 years! How dare they sit back!
malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium
I take it you are being
I take it you are being sarcastic.
Imagine...
a world where we had more nations like them!
When Fascism goes to sleep, it checks under the bed for Ron Paul!
Sheesh
I was just being sarcastic ;)
Next time she or someone else
Next time she or someone else uses that hideous logic, comment that that was the exact same rationale that the Nazis used when they decided to exterminate the Jews.
+1, and also
the gypsies, trade unionists, homosexuals, Poles and other ethnic Slavs, Communists, political dissidents, social dems and the mentally hanicapped.
A signature used to be here!
THEY DON'T HATE US!!!! This
THEY DON'T HATE US!!!!
This is the thing, and I'll scream it again, THEY DON'T FREAK'N HATE US... THEY DON'T FREAK'N HATE US!
There, I got it off my chest.
The people that have the strongest opinion about Iran and Iranians are the absolute dumbest! It's a seriously complicated situation but the one known fact is that Iranians who do not get government kickbacks from the Iranian government don't hate us. They don't, never have, but who knows after we attack but don't nation build....
The last thing we need
... is to be giving them new excuses for killing people!
I was sitting here and it came to me, what would people say if you told them we needed to kill the children of convicts because statistically it shows that many of these convicts children are going to grow up and kill people or how about the children of wife beaters, don't many of the boys in these families grow up to beat their wives?
SAME response
I get all the time in SC. From young, middle-aged, old, educated, and uneducated.
Never in the recent history (save perhaps Hitler's Germany) has a population been so brainwashed.
The German people did not see the error of their ways until Berlin was invaded. The people of this country will change their tune when invasion comes to their backyard. And I do not count 9/11 as an example of a foreign invasion.
Then they will certainly understand what "do unto others" really means.
“The law cannot make a wicked person virtuous…God’s grace alone can accomplish such a thing.” Ron Paul - The Revolution
Apparently
Using her as a model - the American women want to kill the Iranians. What's the difference?
Wow, she is probably hopeless.
It's sad that they will take Hannity as gospel, but won't listen to people in the flesh that they know a little about.
I would have just said "look lady, your getting old, maybe you should try to make peace with the world instead of making war with the world. I understand your righteous quest, but determining who lives and who dies sounds more like gods realm and stepping on gods toes is something you may not want to answer for."
It's not just you
"I am starting to think these people who want to go to war with Iran want to kill everyone they dislike; they believe that if someone or some group of people dislike them and hate them, these people should be taken out and killed."
If the conversation goes on long enough, it'll usually end with the pro-war supporter (usually a Christian Zionist) admitting that they only support the WoT because they want Muslims exterminated, All 1,200,000,000 of them.
Many feel the same about OWS supporters as well. "Those fucking hippies! I hope the cops kill 'em all! They just hate bankers because they're anti-Semites derp de derp!"
You really can't reason with people like this. I can only hope that one day, the ideology they push comes to their doorstep. They have it coming.
A signature used to be here!
This is a good post
but the Title is misleading. Ron Paul is right on the mark concerning Iran!