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Tom Woods: Conservatives And War




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tremendous speech

Where/when was this?

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What is begun in anger, ends in shame.

Elricmlbone's picture

10th amendment meeting

In California last year

“The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.” – Thomas Jefferson

tom woods is the man

and to all paulites that dont agree with the truth about the Bush,s than to dam bad!they are war criminals and not only that they have been smuggling drugs in this country for along time.dont believe if you dont want to but its true.and jeb bush's wife's family are big cocaine cartel, how conveient and thats who dick armey wants to run.

freedom420

Sorry, I have to

To dam bad is to poorly stop up fluid.

Too damned bad might suggest: Sorry about your luck. Is that not what you mean?

Thanx,

Jason

You can't get clean in a dirty bathtub.

sharkhearted's picture

POWERFUL!!!

Bump bump bump!!!

~Chris
Norfolk, VA

Thanks

I think I watched it before but it is well worth watching again.

He is brilliant.

Love That Guy...

Tom Woods gets the truth on the table.

The more I think through what he says about foreign policy, the more I realize how screwed we really are. We have built a monster and we are all accountable, and the monster is in the room with us, and it's not going away until WE remove it. I love our country but the people WE have allowed to lead us are destroying it and us at the same time. We are not doing enough about this and it will be our undoing.

To My Ear He Doesn't Hate The United States

Rather he mistrusts the federal government.

You don't think national politics attracts sociopaths? Obama Cheney Clinton Gingrich and Santorum all come to mind. Think of how they have treated human life in the Middle East, or how they seek to treat it.

Commerce with all nations, alliance with none.--Thomas Jefferson

Of the five you mention

I would say that only Obama seems like a sociopath. Clinton might be close. The other three, each were functioning clearly within the boundaries and norms of American society, whether we agree with those norms or not. War is popular. So, warmongering, while repulsive, is normative.

That is why I find terms like sociopath, war criminal, warmongerer, etc. objectionable. Woods is a a clear MINORITY and espousing a point of view that is non-normative. Good for him as that is how change occurs. But I detest the name calling of his philosophical enemies, who were operating within the moral standards they were given.

Gingrich And Santorum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvBwcf4kfCc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8uNcIEvGdo

Commerce with all nations, alliance with none.--Thomas Jefferson

Articles of Confederation - Really?

I watched this clip with on open mind and would really like to have a conversation. Do we want to grow the intelectual revolution Ron Paul talks about beyond its current numbers? Is this anarchist stuff going to accomplish that?

Woods apparently wants a stateless civilization, or at best a collection of small villages with almost no national identity. I suppose the Amish people are his role models. He seems to dislike everything about the United States. He calls our national leaders sociopaths. He agrees that one of our Presidents should be tried for war crimes.

I find much of Woods' treatise appealing. I appreciate his critique of government schools but not his blanket denouncement of American Presidents as (cult leaders). Why such a broad brush that denounces the entire legacy of the United States? Does he have a problem with Jefferson, Madison? Apparently yes because he wrote the Constitution. Wilson, FDR? I hope so. Reagan? I hope not. I like the way he challenges authority and conventional wisdom.

A deconstruction of the current welfare-warfare state is essential if we are to get back on track. I'd be good with a formal acknowledgment that the Progressive Movement has destroyed the US. And a bold critique of classical neoconservatism - not the broad brush rebuke that obliquely gets tossed around in libertarian circles.

I read Liberty Defined and was inspired. I didn't see any of this anarchist stuff in there. Did I miss something? Does Ron Paul agree with Thomas Woods? I hope not.

If we want a marginal movement we can follow Thomas Woods and others like him. If we want a restoration of America, like that which Paul is leading, we should question people like Woods. Where is he leading us?

Call me a troll if you want. But I want Paul to win and I want his ideas to become more mainstream. Going back to the Articles of Confederation is ridiculous. There I said it.

War crimes?

Obama, "Subliminably" Bush, Clinton, "No new taxes" Bush, Nixon, Johnson......

Don't forget their handlers: Kissinger, Bolton, Rumsfeld, Perle, Wolfowitz....there sre so many that should be tried. Sorry if I've missed some of your favourites.

Oh and BTW, I as a Canadian will include Stephen Harper for bombing Libya.

Thanx,

Jason

You can't get clean in a dirty bathtub.

Did they break the law?

What are the war crimes? In war you fight to win.

You may have quibbles and

You may have quibbles and disagreements with Dr. Woods, but no one said you have to agree with everything a person has to offer.

I’m not sure Dr. Woods argued he wanted to go back to the AOC, but even so, why is this considered bad or wrong? Dr. Woods’s main thesis was to question the presumption of centralization: why is it presumed that centralization of power is a just state of affairs? Is it conceivable that another arrangement of political life can survive and handle the problems that beset us? Has not centralization of power produced in the whole mass deaths and destruction? Was Jefferson correct when he said “a single consolidated government would become the most corrupt government on the earth”?

On Presidents, the question arises: why the mystique towards that office? Writing in The American Conservative Dr. Woods details the thoughts and opinions of a prominent conservative intellectual, Robert Nisbet, on what conservatives stand for and how things have changed. In it, Dr. Woods quotes Robert Nisbet on federal dominance:

The Far Right is less interested in Burkean immunities from government power than it is in putting a maximum of governmental power in the hands of those who can be trusted. It is control of power, not diminution of power, that ranks high. Thus when Reagan was elected conservatives hoped for the quick abolition of such government ‘monstrosities’ as the Department of Energy, the Department of Education, and the two National Endowments of the Arts and Humanities, all creations of the political left. The Far Right in the Reagan Phenomenon saw it differently, however; they saw it as an opportunity for retaining and enjoying the powers. And the Far Right prevailed. It seeks to prevail also in the establishment of a ‘national industrial strategy,’ a government corporation structure in which the conservative dream of free private enterprise would be extinguished.

On presidents:

There are too many powerful voices among intellectuals—in press, foundation, and elsewhere—that want a royal President provided only that he is the right kind of individual.

On the mystique of the president:

Not only what the President thinks on a given public issue, but what he wears, whom he dines with, what major ball or banquet he may choose to give, and what his views are on the most trivial or cosmic of questions—all of this has grown exponentially in the regard lavished by press and lesser political figures upon the presidency during the past four decades.

He also question Reagan’s conservatism:

President Reagan’s deepest soul is not Republican-conservative but New Deal-Second World War Democrat. Thus his well noted preference for citing FDR and Kennedy as noble precedents for his actions rather than Coolidge, Hoover, or even Eisenhower. The word ‘revolution’ springs lightly from his lips, for anything from tax reform to narcotics prosecution. Reagan’s passion for crusades, moral and military, is scarcely American-conservative.

malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium

You're no troll

but you shouldn't be frightened by the truth. How do we grow an intellectual revolution if we aren't willing to have an intellectual conversation? How do we grow an intellectual revolution if we don't challenge our beliefs?

Our leaders are sociopaths, just look at what they are doing. 30,000 drones in the US by 2020. We are crossing the rubicon right now. don't apologize for it just because it's not PC. Woods explained how the death of 500,000 children was "worth it" in the minds of our leaders. They aren't right people. Don't apologize for them. Don't buy into the idea that taking power away from them is radical. It's radical to think any other way.

For the record, I'd prefer anarchy to what we have now.

Truth may be Occam's Razor

Our leaders believe they are fighting a war, a war that was authorized by Congress. You may debate the legitimacy of the war or the practicality of it, but it is a war. I've never heard Ron Paul say that these leaders are criminals. He believes they are wrong and in denial but he does not believe they are criminals or sociopaths.

Yes, they believe they are fighting a war,

and only a sociopath could justify it based on the reasons and info available.

OneTinSoldier's picture

I'll just say what Dr.Paul says

"We need to have a discussion as to what the role of Government in our lives should be."

I love the Constitution. But I also have to keep in mind it's just a piece of paper, with words on it. I'm not trying to marginalize it, that is simply a fact. It has influence and can be held up as a blueprint/plan, but Government is really a reflection of the people. The original Constitution did not authorize a Central Bank and removal of the Gold Standard. The piece of paper did not stop us from having a Federal Reserve Act foisted on us by men in power while Congress was in recess for Christmas in 1913. The Federal Reserve Act was a reflection of the people that were voted into power at the time. From my viewpoint, the people that did the electing let it stand. They did not demand a repeal and continue to demand one until such time that it was repealed. My hope is that, that is changing.

I No Longer Want To “Restore The Constitution” - http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/02/09/i-no-longer-want-t...

When we no longer have the rule of law and elected officials that actually represent us, it is our right, our duty, to alter or throw off such Government, and elect officials that do represent us. You can actually do that when the people are the ones that have the money. The value of the Government's money, which it has a monopoly on, is nearing zero. When it gets to zero, what power will our Government have?

"We need to have a discussion as to what the role of Government in our lives should be."

It certainly shouldn't be to have a monopoly on money. It shouldn't even be in the money business. The only monopolies are ones that are created by Government.

When they took us off the Gold Standard they took away our money... in order to make it theirs.

"If we lose freedom here there's no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth." -Ronald Reagan

When they took us off the Gold Standard they took away our money... in order to make it theirs. -OneTinSoldier

Yes Really

The idea for the US was a union of republics. Large republics do not work as well for various reasons. Plus if a state is oppressive with taxes, regulations, etc then you move to a "better" state. But if the federal gov is guiding all policies you have no where to "vote with your feet". Since we do not currently have the originally intended environment one could argue we were better off with the Articles of Confederation.
Frequently the people who want a strong federal gov want more power and control but there is something to be said about local government being better for the individual.

Yes, Really!

To better understand Tom's argument, it would behoove you to read more about the original intent of the Constitution and how it has facilitated the growth of the leviathan that all lovers of liberty abhor. The District of Criminals will continue to promote this parchment idolatry because it serves THEIR interests; not yours or mine. The Constitution, has written, is not worth the paper it was written on.

http://www.garynorth.com/public/7833.cfm

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."

"Our constitutions purport to be established
by 'the people,' and, in theory, 'all the people'
consent to such government as the constitutions authorize.
But this consent of 'the people' exists only in theory.
It has no existence in fact.
Government is in reality established by the few;
and these few assume the consent of all the rest,
without any such consent being actually given."

"The ostensible supporters of the Constitution, like the ostensible supporters of most other governments, are made up of three classes, viz.: 1. Knaves, a numerous and active class, who see in the government an instrument which they can use for their own aggrandizement or wealth. 2. Dupes - a large class, no doubt - each of whom, because he is allowed one voice out of millions in deciding what he may do with his own person and his own property, and because he is permitted to have the same voice in robbing, enslaving, and murdering others, that others have in robbing, enslaving, and murdering himself, is stupid enough to imagine that he is a "free man," a "sovereign"; that this is "a free government"; "a government of equal rights," "the best government on earth," and such like absurdities. 3. A class who have some appreciation of the evils of government, but either do not see how to get rid of them, or do not choose to so far sacrifice their private interests as to give themselves seriously and earnestly to the work of making a change."
~~Lysander Spooner

For Liberty,

dakealo

reedr3v's picture

I deeply sympathize with your initial

response to resist Tom's words. Even as a libertarian from the 60's, when I began reading more detailed foreign policy history beginning with Ron Paul's A Foreign Policy of Freedom and history revisionism including Tom Woods' We Who Dared To Say No To War,the process was absolutely excruciating.

To face the truths of many decades of U.S. foreign policy, unfiltered by apologists and glorification of war, was an emotionally wrenching intellectual experience. I can well understand that most people are not willing to put themselves through it.

But please put words like "sociopath" in the context of searing moral outrage for the whole, devastating truth. While Woods quotes Conservative founder Russel Kirk, a man of a more decorous time, saying some of our war leaders should be "strung up on the White House lawn," today's culture is one of even more blunt speaking.

I don't know Woods' personal ideal government; he mentions the Articles of Confederation which many Conservatives have long held as more valid than the Constitution which allowed far more federal loopholes and weakened the originally strong, independent states.

I do know that Ron Paul's message of Liberty brings together many factions, from rightist Conservatives, to Consitutionalists of left and right, to Left libertarians, to even anarchists in a united push back to the aggressive Authoritarian centralization of the last 100 years, and the immorality of Empire foreign policy.

We don't have to all hold an identical future idealized vision for governance. We can work together to stop the menace we all face today. In a time of greater Liberty we may find divisions melt away and tolerance for political diversity and discussions become a parlor activity instead of a revolutionary one.

Good comments all

I initiated the conversation because I wanted one. Someone posted the Woods clip so I thought I would react to it.

Woods is great but he goes a little too far.

A little background about me. I am a family therapist and community builder. I also teach sociology. I released a book this year about common sense conservatism that draws from multiple perspectives including libetratianism. So, I have more than a pasing interest in this stuff.

People organize into groups. They always have and they always will. Sometimes I get the feeling when I listen to these guys that they have the idea that all human organization is illegitimate.

A core principle of systems theory is that all systems suck on some level. There are no perfect communities and no perfect societies. Systems become calcified over time and require constant reform to keep them vibrant and functioning. Consolidation of power and corruption are natural evolutionary processes in all human systems. Periodic reinvention is thus necessary to reign in the excesses, eliminate the bad actors, and remove the calcification. We are in dramatic need for that type of reform in my opinion. Paul is our deliverer.

What I don't like about Woods' approach and some of the harder edges of this movement is the tendency to see bogeymen everywhere, as if WE are separate from THEM. The enemy is us. And the hopelessness that some seem to emit that the country itself is even worth saving. I cannot abide that, now do I believe Ron Paul does either. To me he comes across as a deeply patriotic and committed reformer.

I do not want to see Ron Paul's intelectual revolution become an excuse for people who are so burnt out and hopeless to deceide they want to destroy rather than deconstruct and rebuild. When a respondent here says he believes anarchy is better than what we have now that concerns me. Anarchy is normlessness, anomie. And it sets the stage for totalitarianism. That sounds like more of an Occupy Wall Street refrain than a Ron Paul refrain.

I am out here trying to convert suburban, middle and upper middle class voters to Ron Paul. They have had success in this society. Telling them the society that they know is flawed, but essentially love because it is their home and they see none better, is completely *ucked up and beyond repair without undoing practically everything, is a losing argument. These types of arguments made by Woods do not help our cause in my opinion.

Listen To The End Again

He's supportive of organization at the state level. It's the federal government on which he focuses his criticism.

The very end of the speech, in fact, concerns standing together as a society -- hardly a cry for anarchy.

Commerce with all nations, alliance with none.--Thomas Jefferson