The difference between voter fraud and election fraud
Submitted by Jinc on Tue, 02/14/2012 - 03:17Since it looks like the topic may be a recurring theme for us, we may do well to understand the difference between voter fraud and election fraud.
When you hear "We have no reason to believe that voter fraud in (Maine, Nevada etc) had any affect on the outcome", it may be true ...election fraud though, now thats a whole different subject.
Voter fraud involves individual voters. Illegal immigrants voting or registered voters voting more than once are both examples of voter fraud.
Election fraud involves candidates and/or parties trying to illegally influence the outcome of an election. This kind of fraud can include ballot stuffing, manipulating results, voter suppression and disenfranchisement.
This is the kind of fraud we are most concerned about.
Despite these distinctions VOTER DISENFRANCHISEMENT
is what REALLY MAKES ME MAD.
Nevada was the clear cut case - at the special election. Other states have it too - South Carolina's black box voting machines. Nobody really knows who won in South Carolina.
Unless there is a paper trail, it can't be counted.
There needs to be a simple U.S. Law that demands paper trails of each voter's choice.
check this site for more nightmares to come:
http://www.verifiedvoting.org/verifier/
- Joe
www.EmpowerUsTools.com
Patent Pending Magnetic Pen Holder!
I think it's more common for
I think it's more common for 'election fraud' in a primary rather than a caucus purely on the principle of how they're done, however...Maine was clearly election fraud, not voter fraud. There may have been some voter fraud(like the one witness we had on the Daily Paul talking about 3 people coming in and voting for Romney in Iowa that they didn't realize weren't 'locals' until afterwards), as I think there is a level of it in any election of any kind(the system isn't perfect), but in Maine it was blatant voter suppression by many of the leaders of the 'party'.
It's outright sickening listening to Charlie Webster's multiple interviews where he's always coming up with 'one more reason' as to why he doesn't think Washington county would have or should have counted. In one interview, he mistook the 3 major separate requirements to be a registered voter, and changed it from 'pay taxes, register your car, OR register at townhall' to 'AND', which pretty much rules out a large % of the vote...This was particularly aimed at college students that don't have a car or don't have an income to be taxed(no job).
I think it's more common for 'election fraud'
True , and I think it was 'Voting Fraud' in Nevada . While we were waiting for Clark county results to come up , I saw a youtube video that shown a reporter saying that there were more votes in certain counties then there were people ? Whether this was done by ' computer' vote or if alot of people either came from other places or voted twice is uncertain. Nevertheless , this has been going on for decades , it's only now with our beloved country being exploited that the people are finally waking up and paying attention to everything that was always ' explained ' to us .
In Minnesota
Where I was elected as a delegate I have yet to get a convention call. Could this be because I openly supported Ron Paul? I am afraid I won't be allowed to participate in the county convention. What shall I do?
I'd contact Ron Paul HQ
They ought to know exactly how to do it. And it may take some repeat effort if they're swamped.
Find out the dates of the convention and just ask local republicans when it is, and show up with evidence of your status.
In NY it's going to be the same way I'm sure. We're not til April.
www.EmpowerUsTools.com
Patent Pending Magnetic Pen Holder!
Read these forum posts from AsMaineGoes.com
There seems to be a couple of idiots in the commity intent on saying those complaining are conspiratorists pulling the same crap to hide they propped up their status quo guy. Not everyone is buying it though and I hope they keep the presssure up.
http://www.asmainegoes.com/content/errors
This next forum is from the homepage forum and seem to have the same players but it seems many of the votes were not counted and others were misled as to whether their votes would count or not. There seems to be three characters apart from Charlie that want things hidden. The one that calls herself Naran and two others that call themselves Betsy Ross and a Pat Riot.
http://www.asmainegoes.com/content/romney-announced-winner-m...
We need to be the ones counting the votes to win this election.
It was not an election, thus there was no election fraud.
It was a beauty contest. It had no meaning other than bragging rights.
Seriously people, get over yourselves.
There are NO primaries for President.
Candidates are not chosen by the voters. They are nominated by delegates to the Party conventions.
You have no case and would be laughed out of court. If not, then that judge should be removed from the bench.
The same argument says there's no election of the president.
The president is not chosen by the voters, either. He is selected by the delegates to the Electoral College ("electors") (or the House of Representatives if no candidate has a majority of electors).
It's still election fraud if the selection of the ticket of pledged electors is fraudulent.
(Not that it affects the rest of your points. I'm just being picky about that particular argument not bearing on whether a primary or caucus is an election. B-) )
= = = =
"Obama’s Economists: ‘Stimulus’ Has Cost $278,000 per Job."
That means: For each job "created or saved" about five were destroyed.
Yes, I agree, if the selection of the Elector slate is affected
that is election/voter fraud.
Notice though, that the election in November does actually affect an elected office. (that of the Electors, being an Elector is a public office and even comes with a pay check, albeit a small one) But choosing WHO the GOP will put on the ballot to be an Elector is a private matter for the GOP. They can do that however they want. It might really suck if they manage this in an underhanded fashion, or they break their own preset rules. (or they 'hide' the rules so they can make them up as they go along) But that is cause for judicial action WITHIN the party structure. (there are procedures and rules on how to bring such complaints on members and leadership)
The straw poll however does not determine any elected office. Delegates are chosen by State Convention. (with or without a primary)
If the delegate positions are affected adversely by what happened, AND Maine law specifies how the caucuses or straw poll is linked to the selection of actual delegates (not just who they may nominally be pledged to support), then I would agree this is in fact a crime. But if this is not the case aren't, I don't see how it could be a crime.
An analogy I would draw would be this:
Say at a caucus, or primary, GOP members(voters) voted in a straw poll to express their preference for the style of pizza they wanted served at the National Convention, or to choose which color they would be represented by on MSM electoral maps on election night. I contend that has as much bearing on who the actual nominee is. I don't suspect anyone would be screaming for criminal charges in such a case.
Perhaps I didn't understand your clarification, but I think we agree more than we disagree on this.
It's a caucus fraud or
It's a caucus fraud or primary fraud, whatever you want to call it.
That doesn't make it necessarily illegal. I'm not defending the
actions.
It seems some people can't grasp the simple concept that one can state a fact that isn't in line with their view of a subject, but doing so doesn't mean you are defending their opponent.
I do not in any way condone what Charlie Webster did or anyone else in Maine who was involved, but that doesn't mean what they did constitutes election fraud or vote fraud which are punishable and defined crimes under U.S. and Maine law.
Should he be pushed to resign? Hell yes.
Should he be voted out of leadership if he won't resign? Hell yes.
Is what he did illegal? I don't think so with the information we have.
Understand the difference now folks?
i get where youre coming from sam- and I agree
We do need to take a measured, realistic approach to how we deal with the in-party tomfoolery- and perhaps be prepared to accept resignations rather than 10 year prison sentences and/or public executions. Now the media...theres a whole different thing. They sure aren't helping to keep the GOP honest by agreeing to broadcast bogus numbers. What legal responsibility do they have?
Excellent point and question. (by asking it)
I would say, I've heard others here speak of federal laws pertaining to the media "unduly influencing" elections.
I haven't read those laws for myself. I would think considering recent history, that if they are that clear-cut and it is that easy to violate them, we'd have seen tons of lawsuits and people going to jail since the 1960 election. The fact that we haven't tells me this is harder to prove or get a conviction on than many would believe.
Or, perhaps there is some non-conspiratorial "professional courtesy" collusion going on with prosecutors/attorneys general which results in no charges being sought. (there doesn't have to be an agreed upon conspiracy, but merely the understanding that to "bring down" people in a certain way, might not bode well for someone in such a position.)
Though, I'd like to see someone in the media, at least for the most egregious violations we've witnessed lately, to get the kitchen sink thrown at them. If at the least, it causes a break up of the mega media corps, and we return to limits on the number and types of outlets owned, I think that will be a good thing.
I generally do not support limits on ownership or any similar anti-monopoly laws, usually because they aren't what they are cracked up to be, and more importantly, are trying to substitute for market defense mechanisms. I would thus like to see this happen via the removal of licenses for the broadcast spectrum, and removal of corporate ownership of media outlets. The "rights" of speech and press are natural rights and inhere in the individual- they are not collective rights. A corporation cannot have natural rights- they are not natural. Thus there should be ZERO legal protection for any corporation owning and operating a media outlet on the grounds of freedom of speech or of the press.
I think this restoration of rights to whom and where they belong, along with the restoration of full liability for one's speech and printed material, and the restoration of a free market in the airwaves, would quickly solve the problem of nearly all media outlets being owned, operated and controlled by a handful of mega corporations who use that mouthpiece to unduly influence elections in their favor.
Nevada Fraud
I know the GOP fixed the caucus in Romney's favor by election fraud. You had to be there to see the underhanded way things were done. The out come proves it. I wish the campaign would take a long hard look at this mess.
dave anderson
Why put it just on the campaign?
Why put it just on the campaign? It's the job of Nevadans (and citizens of other states) to be sure their votes are counted correctly. Sure the official campaign has special standing to send people to do things like watching counts. But the individual caucus-goers can record their local results to check the later official tally, and sound off at the time if the operators of the local caucus don't want to count the votes and announce the local results then and there. (Ditto for checking primary or general election precinct results.) That's the sort of thing that can be organized separately, by meetup groups, clubs, active neighbors, or whatever. Or just do it on your own (like I did on our last city council election).
After the Nevada debacle in the 2008 nomination process I thought the Paul supporters - or at least those who were already Paul supporters at the time - would have realized that the state party was in the hands of a bunch of crooks and would need to be (actively and forcefully) monitored and pushed into transparency at all stages of the election. (I'd have been participating in that if I'd moved to the Nevada house in time for the campaign and organization for the primary, rather than still being stuck in the town house in CA.) Wasn't that done?
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." should be the slogan for the official campaign AND the unaffiliated supporters during the whole 2012 election process. This IS the second time around for us as the army behind a Ron Paul Republican Presidential run.
The Neocons have a lot of power and Ron Paul's candidacy threatens to make them lose it. Do NOT expect them to go quietly. DO expect every dirty trick in the book, including felonies. Not just in Nevada, but in every state and territory. (Some may be honest. But the political process is strongly biased to recruit psychopaths. And Nevada has no monopoly on political corruption.) Things get ugliest when groups of people are losing what they have and expected to keep.
= = = =
"Obama’s Economists: ‘Stimulus’ Has Cost $278,000 per Job."
That means: For each job "created or saved" about five were destroyed.
voter fraud and election fraud...
The prevalence of both forms of fraud are being perpertrated consistently in every state so far I believe. The American people must demand from their lawmakers and FEC to investigate this and prosecute all involved. A jail cell for all the crooks doing this is the least they deserve...a much more severe punishment(I cant say here or risk persecution) would be more appropriate as I consider them all traitors against The United States of America in the first degree.
Ron Paul or none at all
In New Hampshire
Voter fraud was only punishable by a maximum $5000 fine. Pretty sad considering Romney's campaign could pay that for each incident after the fact.
www.EmpowerUsTools.com
Patent Pending Magnetic Pen Holder!
You need to clarify jinc ...
the courts do not view a primary as an election.
You are not elected into office in a primary.
Party rules cannot violate the 14th amendment, but outside of that, all is fair game.
They can require you to attend monthly meetings in order to be eligible to vote in a caucus if they so choose.
WAHOR!!
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48994
I dont know : ) without poring over law books
i can only assume that the laws that apply in the cases of caucuses and the sorts of contests that the GOP is currently engaged in would pertain to other kinds of fraud. Money is exchanging hands with the understanding that certain outcomes are not foregone conclusions. People are participating under false pretenses if it can be shown that the outcome is predetermined. If the Boy Scouts, a private organization, held a raffle, sold tickets and those purchasing tickets were of the impression that they may win the steak knives, when in fact the steak knives were secretly promised to the cousin of the scout leader- then fraud has been perpetrated. As a private organisation, theoretically the GOP could say "A board of 7 members pick the nominee" and if you dont like it, you can leave. Though not wise, that would be legal if they were open about it. But by asking members to participate according to a group charter, accept money etc on the premises found therein, then they are legally bound to abide by those rules/bylaws. Election fraud may not be the specific charge that would be leveled, but that which constitutes election fraud, i can only assume, would be what would determine the criminal charges that could be leveled against them. My intention of the post was to differentiate between election fraud and voter fraud. Unfortunately I dont know the first thing about the laws that political parties or the media must adhere to : )
I do know that voter fraud in a general election is a felony (for example someone voting twice), but likely not in a GOP caucus (you'd probably just lose your membership). The penalties for GOP staff defrauding the members during the caucuses (or the media manipulating the results) would obviously be less severe than they would be for perpetrating fraud in a general election.
Civil, criminal, remedy, and standing.
These are the issues that need to be considered.
And I think Paul is doing a great job.
What is right and what is real can be two separate things.
Paul is going to get his delegates.
He is not, ever, going to be given the PR that follows a victory in a popularity contest.
His focus is right where it needs to be.
God Bless.
WAHOR!!
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48994
"Pressure mounting for GOP caucus reconsideration"
Check it out: http://bangordailynews.com/2012/02/14/politics/elections/pre...
But how can it be election
But how can it be election fraud if it's not an election? These are caucus / straw polls held by a private party (the GOP).
Since these are technically not elections for public office (those are in November), does anyone know what laws would apply to these events?
Ironically, real journalism would reveal to American citizens that broadcast news has become a racket.
This has been going on for a while, Jim Condit Jr, Ohio & Bev
Harris are on top of this. WATCH THE VOTE 2012 & www.BLACKBOXVOTING.org. Bev has a book & film on her website. You should be very aware of this stuff so you can bring it up in your neck of the woods. Keep in mind, there is a time between the election results & official/ certified election results. You should participate in your local election as much as you can, including any ballot counting sessions you can watch.
For some reason, we're expected to know every law that exists in America & in our state so we don't break it. We're supposed to know this when we're 18. There's no litmus test for them, as in the 10 commandments or rhyme or reason. C.U.R.E.
Electronic
Electronic Election Fraud.
Same difference
[Election fraud involves candidates and/or parties trying to illegally influence the outcome of an election. This kind of fraud can include ballot stuffing, manipulating results, voter suppression and disenfranchisement.]
Election fraud does not happen without individuals (even voting machines have to be tampered with by a human being] and Election Fraud still effect individuals (Just many at once).
Only difference is one is the guy/guys who planed it (Election fraud) and the other is the guy/guys who carried it out (voter fraud).
Guess which one is the harder to prove in a court of law?
They are using fraud in the primaries to defraud
the presidential election. Sounds like enough reason for claim of fraud.
Private organization or not there is deceit, outright lying. The people of Maine are being defrauded through these lies.
Actually...
"When you hear "There was no sign of voter fraud in (Maine, Nevada etc)", they're being honest"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Oz-PF5wM3A
I'm sure this is not confined to just one state. Just so happened it was caught there.
I agree with you though that election fraud is more rampant.
http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/395622.Ron_Paul
"We should never judge a president by his age, only by his works." -Thomas Jefferson
http://www.mediafire.com/?s4snpbpsts5b3 - Thx sovereignjanice
Thank you for enlightenment.
Thank you for enlightenment. I was interchanging the expressions also.
Thankyou--I'll use that term from now on.
However, the GOP knows what we mean. And, the MEDIA knew and knows what we mean, nonetheless.
But, thanks for clarifying it. We will start using the correct term!
Thank you
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“The most important element of a free society, where individual rights are held in the highest esteem, is the rejection of the initiation of violence.” Dr. Ron Paul