36 votes

UPDATED: Email Discussion with Family/Friends

UPDATE:

My uncle along with another person in the CCed section both emailed to ask when I was going to run for office as if my positions were uniquely refreshing to them. My reply has been that I am working to help someone with the same ideas/principals get elected this year, Ron Paul.

Anyhow thanks for all of your great comments and support.

I wanted to get your feedback on my responses. I received an email from a family member that was CCed to several family members and friends. It was essentially a piece on how the Iranians want to get nukes to cause world chaos and bring about the 12th Iman. For context, I am younger, in my 30s, and they are mostly 50s and 60s. They are also all evangelicals. I responded that it was simply war propaganda.

Here was my uncle's reponse to me:

"You have made the mistake, common to modern man, of presuming that the rulers of Iran will act according to a rational logic, for the good of their people. Instead they will most likely follow their belief in the demon god of the Arabian desert.These are men who believe that burying a woman up to her waist in the ground, then throwing rocks at her until she is battered to death is a good and virtuous thing to do. For the sake of your family you must get a firm grip on the fact that outside your warm and bright home it is dark and getting darker. The line between the safe and pleasant life we know and utter chaos is razor thin, and can vanish without a moments notice. Be ready."

Here was my repsonse to him, keep in mind this is all CCed to about a dozen people:

"First let me say, I am glad to have the opportunity for this discussion.

I have no illusion that my children’s future is not ever bleak. They are disadvantaged in every way.

Spiritually: they will grow up in a time when the church has lost nearly all effectiveness. A church that sends more soldiers to the Middle East than missionaries. A church that has been deceived into thinking they can win souls politically and through legislation. It seems it’s more convenient to go to church and be entertained once on Sunday and vote once a year for the jokester who wears a “Christian” banner on his sleeve than actually walk out the Gospel seven days a week. We all know America is nothing if not convenient.

Economically: My children will inherit nearly $100 Trillion in unfunded liabilities. How can this be? How can previous generations have mismanaged things so poorly? When they ask I will tell them the truth. The generations before them lived it up in a government they wanted to have but didn’t want to pay for and that the Federal Reserve was more than happy to lend so they could pass the bill to my kids. I will tell them “Some people wanted the government to take care of every need from cradle to grave and some people wanted to police and govern the entire world. These are VERY expensive things that none of these people wanted to pay for through their own taxes and thus they borrowed using the Federal Reserve on the backs of you (referencing my children).”

Politically: This one is almost funny. I mean, we have taken every issue in the universe and placed it somewhere on a linear line that runs left and right. They have but two choices represented on this line. In the end, these choices will be two people who talk different in their rhetoric, but are EXACTLY the same in policy. If they are a big government liberals, they will like MSNBC, believe the problems with America are due to the Rich, and that there isn’t a problem the Federal Government can’t solve. If they are a big government neo-conservative, they will favor Fox News, believe it’s our moral obligation to spread democracy through force policing the world. Despite the fact that they are more likely to get struck by lightning 7 times than die in a terrorist attack, they will live in fear that the Muslim terrorist cell hiding under their bed will at any moment blow up their entire world.

No the REAL threats to my children TODAY are not sharia law, or some dessert dwelling people living ten thousand miles away and what they MIGHT do if they somehow/someday get the means. The real threats are RIGHT here at home RIGHT NOW: the growing threat of economic collapse, the growing police state, the lack of respect for the US Constitution and free markets, that entertainment “news networks” such as MSNBC, FOX, and CNN are somehow mistaken for actual journalism and truth finding, the misunderstanding of corporatism, socialism, and their relation to big government and decreased liberty. I could go on but I imagine you get the point.

This rhetoric on Iran is nothing but the same rhetoric we saw in the disastrous event that was the war in Iraq, which cost nearly $1 trillion, killed over 4,000 Americans wounding tens of thousands more, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, with what result? We virtually wiped out the decent sized Christian population that once existed in Iraq and gave that country over to the Iranians.

The government doesn’t manage anything well, and war/nation building is nothing different. I certainly don't have to tell that to someone who has experienced this first hand.

Ask yourself a few things:

- Why is it the media doesn’t show us pictures inside Iran on the news like they did with Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya? Could it be the REAL Iran is not how you envisioned in your mind? Where did this vision come from?

- Why is it when we faced a threat that was armed to the teeth with tens of thousands of nuclear weapons it was sufficient for us to keep a defense budget of $400-$600 Billion and now we can’t be safe unless we spend nearly $1.5 Trillion/year fighting an enemy with no tanks, no planes, and no real technology?

- Is it ANY coincidence that the 5 or 6 parent companies that control 97% of all US Media benefit from our foreign policy?

Osama Bin Laden's VERY CLEARLY stated goal was not to implement sharia law in the United States or bring about the 12 Iman. It was simply to cause economic chaos and fear and to FORCE the withdraw of US forces from Saudi Arabia. His stated reasoning was not that we were Christian or “free” but that we occupied “Holy Lands” with military bases. He has more than won in every way on this. America is poorer, more in debt, and thanks to un-Constitutional shredding laws like the UN-Patriot Act and the NDAA, and new bureaucracies like Homeland Security and the TSA, less free than before the attacks.

Nevermind that none of the hijackers came from Iraq, Iran, or were even born in Afghanistan. All of the hijackers and all of the funding came from an undemocratic, non-free nation called Saudi Arabia who is ironically still one of our greatest allies in the middle east.

No, logic and reasoning have all but left us. We are now at endless war with a tactic (terrorism) and not an enemy. This is convenient because a tactic cannot surrender thus the war never ends. Somehow, despite that terrorism is a FEDERAL CRIME and that we have attained hundreds of sentences in Federal Courts for decades, American courts are no longer sufficient to prosecute terrorists. Despite that even the most vile Nazi war criminals were hunted down, captured, given trials and THEN executed, the boogie man terrorists are so evil and so dangerous they don’t merit such things as charges, trials, and courts. Despite what started out as a war on Muslim terrorists, we can now arbitrarily pick up, detain indefinitely, or simply execute anyone deemed a terrorist without any burden of evidence whatsoever EVEN IF they are a United States Citizen on US soil. The Bill of Rights has become nothing but an inconvenience for the state…

Anyhow, things are not all bleak. People around the world are waking up to the fact that big government central economic planning is a failure and a breeding ground for all that is corrupt and evil with men. They are also learning more than ever that War is Racket. It’s not too late, but it will be painful."

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bravo!

bravo!

Updated

Updated with response.

Thank you- your arguments

Thank you- your arguments were very thoughtfully laid out. You have also contributed valuable material for discussion.

I sense your frustration and I think you are much more patient than I would be. To me, nothing seems more hypocritical than people who say they follow Christ's teachings but believe that preemptive war is the answer.

Iran is particularly frustrating since there does not appear to me to even be any persuasive reason for war being stated - its more like a mish-mash of bogeyman fear rather than concrete accusations and evidence (as if we should have learned our lesson from Iraq.) The most concrete accusation is the nuclear one (and it is more like fiction by all official reports)...but even if they had a nuclear weapon why would that be any more threatening than Pakistan having one?? We still sleep at night with a nuclear Pakistan.

And if Muslims are so prone to dangerous behavior why are so many approved to immigrate to the U.S? Wouldn't the US put a moratorium on immigration from Middle Eastern nations to lessen the likelihood of those t'rist cells?

You talk of WWIII and I've been thinking about how WWII followed on the heels of the roaring twenties and then the depression. People were buoyed up with wealth and not on guard. Suddenly reality struck with the depression and then they were sucked into WWII and the government was able to really take control of many aspect of people's lives and society. Something seems eerily similar nowadays. I dare not think about how WWIII would turn out.

superb.

About the only thing I can think of to suggest you keep in mind for possible improvement is: questions sometimes work better than statements.

Or, taking my own suggestion:

Which is more effective, statements or questions?

;-)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
What is begun in anger, ends in shame.

I absolutely agree with

I absolutely agree with everything you stated in your response to your uncle. However, you could have eliminated your uncle from ever questioning your rationality from the very beginning. You stated that the first CCed email, “It was essentially a piece on how the Iranians want to get nukes to cause world chaos and bring about the 12th Imam.”

What we know from this is: The 12th Imam and Caliphate scenario, which Ahmadinejad has stated, was heavily pushed primarily by Glenn Beck. This understanding lets us know where exactly the originator of the email is coming from and what other issues may be behind their pro-Iranian war stance; which would be the protection of Israel.

Your original response, instead of being simply that it is war propaganda, should have been, something like this: “If we accept the fact that Iranian leaders are hoping for the arrival of the 12th Imam, then before we go to war with them we should know something about the 12th Imam and the Iranian leaders desire for his return, first; shouldn't we?

The understandings and logical conclusions we arrive at are thus: Iran could never Nuke Israel due to the temple mount, this is very holy to the Muslim religion and important to the arrival of the 12th Imam. If Iran was to nuke it, then that would ensure that the 12th Imam wouldn't arrive for at least another 10,000 years. Secondly, Ahmadinejad and the other Iranian leaders believe that 'they themselves' will in someway be supporting characters after the arrival of the 12th Imam, but if they were to start a war with either Israel or the US, they certainly wouldn't live long enough to be of any service to the 12th Imam after his arrival; would they? Furthermore, they(the Iranian leaders) believe that Iran will be the center of the Global Caliphate which the 12th Imam will rule over; but if Iran launches nukes at Israel or the US, most certainly nukes will be launched back at them, thereby destroying the possibility of Iran being used to control the Global Caliphate and therefore their(the Iranian leaders) whole purpose of starting a war to bring about the 12th Imam and the Iranian led Global Caliphate would be lost. Besides, the war which was prophecized in the Hadeeth, which brings about the 12th Imam, isn't started by Iran but by the opposer's of Islam.

If we were to disregard the 12th Imam, for a moment, then the Caliphate is still a possibility, however, the Iranian government couldn't unite their own people, as we saw in 2009 after their elections, let alone the entire middle east. Not to worry, though, because the actions taken by the Federal Government of The United States has actually made the existence of a Iranian led Caliphate more likely than not.

Our attack on Iraq has, for the most part, turned Iraq over to Iranian control; and, our covert meddling in the Tunisia and Egypt uprisings have led to governments more in-line with Iran than with Western Countries. The intervention of US and NATO forces in Lybia has led to Al Queda being once again armed by the US, and a government in Lybia being more inclined to side with Iran than the West. These interventions have led countries like Syria and Turkey to also become more Iran-like where before they were less likely to side with Iran on much of anything. We should also include Afghanistan in with these countries now siding with Iran; for their leaders have also stated support for Iran in opposition to the US. With the talks, and then the use, of sanctions and war with Iran have now caused the citizens of Iran to fall in-line behind the government and now the atmosphere of a potential uprising against the government of Iran has been destroyed.

Lest we not forget, that the threats made by the US have also galvanized support for Iran from both China and Russia, which have stated publicly that if we(the US) attacks Iran they will attack the US in kind; increasing the likelihood that a war with Iran will quickly become WWIII, which just so happens to be a requirement for the return of the 12th Imam.

So, it would seem that on our current trajectory, the actions which we take to prevent WWIII and the return of the 12th Imam as well as an Iranian led Global Caliphate, may actually do more to ensure that it happens then to prevent it from happening.

If we desired less support for the Iranian leaders, from both their citizens and other countries, then our first act would be to remove any sanctions we have imposed and through diplomacy commence trade with that country. This act will put the required intervention to create the conditions for the return of the 12th Imam to come from Iran, which violates the prophecy of the return of the 12th Imam; so, they couldn't do it - if, as you say, the arrival of the 12th Imam is their desire. So, the act of removing sanctions prevents the WWIII and the arrival of the 12th Imam on multiple fronts: 1) Iran loses the support of their citizens, 2) Iran loses support and high profit illegal funding from other countries, 3) They themselves have no way of bringing about the conditions prophecized in the Hadeeth for the return of the 12th Imam and the Global Caliphate.”

Well, like I stated in the beginning, if you would have said something to that effect your uncle wouldn't have been able to launch into his diatribe about the black outside your window. Your response to your uncle's response to your original response did more to galvanize polar opposite positions held by the two of you than it did to have him truly see how ridiculous the idea of a war with Iran to prevent the 12th Imam from returning, truly is; for the main reason is because you never addressed the original concerns of Iran.

When people bring up their concerns of the Iranians desire for the return of the 12th Imam, or nukes, or whatever, you have to address those concerns first and foremost. The more you respond without addressing those concerns in a concise and logical form, the less likely you are to have the other person or people see your point of view; it will do more to solidify their view and also create a false view of you and your logical reasoning skills then it will to have them question their own views as well as question the people who they've got those views from.

I hope this makes sense to those who read it.

Thanks for the ammo

Thanks for the ammo

that was great

i think u hit the nail right on the head !!
in mentioning that OBL wanted to bring economic chaos to US, u could have also mentioned that they had done that to the USSR, and the USSR collapsed on its own weight and the same thing awaits us if we dont look deeper into things.

----------------------------
Dr.Ron Paul's 2002 Predictions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGDisyWkIBM

Well done! I hope the

Well done! I hope the response you get back is worthy of the time and effort it took to write it.

RON PAUL 2012 * Restore America * Bring The Troops Home
http://www.texasuncensored.blogspot.com

Wow! This should be required reading for all FOX News watchers

and people over 50! Fantastic job!

I don't know where you learned to write....

.....but I want to go there.
I read the whole thing without drifting off and that's a pretty impressive achievement.

"I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.” B. Franklin

You're wasting your time. You need to find people who will go to

GOP conventions. You can't do anything unless you and a group of people are regularly showing up at GOP meetings and taking part.

This is the dedicated minority RP keeps talking/writing about. It doesn't matter what most people think because most people don't act.

This is like arguing about world hunger or something equally as philosophical. At the end of the day what DID YOU DO AT THE GOP?

Did you take over the chairman position yet?

================================
Fight the Ron Paul blackout on the Daily Paul (now 'P AU L'), put his removed poster back as your avatar:
http://www.mediafire.com/?9ir62bp8nshv83m

Not true at all. Many more

Not true at all. Many more people need to wake up and they do that by hearing the message from many sources -including relatives.

May I ask why you are spending your time on the internet putting down other people's efforts instead of out there finding people to go to the GOP conventions?

↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓
Show your support for Ron Paul and inspire others at new grassroots site:
http://www.ronpaulpatriotnation.com
( Consider uploading a picture or video of your sign or event, etc .)

Not waste of time at all…

Looks like Patrian is honing the oratory skills necessary to spread the truth about liberty! Keep it up; you’re helping us with our elevator speeches, too!!

"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." -John Quincy Adams

Easy man,

I think he was just sharing a story, not trying to sum up his total contribution to the cause.

WOW

this is excellent!!! I hope you don't mind, but this will be bookmarked and foresee some copy and paste going on.

Family vs. Ron Paul

I'm anxious to hear if and how your Uncle responds. Very good letter by the way.
I've been thinking that we should start referring to Dr. Paul as Lieutenant Paul. He was a 1st Lieutenant in the Air Force and this is rarely mentioned. Of course if Newt had served you can bet he would blow that horn loud and often.

"Setting a good example is a far better way to spread ideals than through force of arms."
Ron Paul

By any chance were you

By any chance were you talking to my grandfather?

jk

Well done.

Evening Bump

Very well written, really enjoyed this, thanks.

afternoon bump

this is really well written. hope everyone plagiarizes it! I know I will! Thanks Patrian!

Brilliant. No a bad

Brilliant. No a bad blueprint from some of my future emails to relatives. Thanks!

↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓
Show your support for Ron Paul and inspire others at new grassroots site:
http://www.ronpaulpatriotnation.com
( Consider uploading a picture or video of your sign or event, etc .)

Absolutely,

and whether the OPs family makes a huge difference in the big scheme of things, it is important to him. We are all more effective if we have family agreement and support. In addition his considerable writing skills have given us valuable tools to try and make ourselves understood within our own families. Thanks for this...every vote counts.

Awesome!!!

IF I could vote this up 1000 times I would. You hit every point clearly without trailing off at all. Brilliantly said.

Ahh, you ron paul supporters just like him

because he wants to legalize drugs. (just kidding, but I wouldn't be surprised if that is your uncle's responce)

Excellent response! I really enjoyed reading it. +1 and bump!

How does your post relate to this beautiful response?

"If we'd been born where they were born and taught what they were taught, we would believe what they believe."-- A sign inside a church in Northern Ireland, explaining the origin of intolerance and hate.

Open your mind to the possibility that all religions and cultures will do things others don’t agree with which are abhorrent to many not of that culture/religion. When liberty spreads, so does justice. And when all third world countries become first world countries, there will be no need for capital punishment anywhere, by any means. It is good to focus on sowing the seeds of liberty, my friend.

"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." -John Quincy Adams

My post refers to the uncle's ignorance about stoning -

sorry you missed that.

Brilliant. Please update if

Brilliant.

Please update if you hear back from anyone...I hope your message made a dent.

This was so good

I bookmarked it for use with MY family who send me the same shit yours sent you. Thank you for taking the time to write it all down!! Discouraged at times.... but hopeful at others!

Thomas Jefferson: “Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."

Viva La Revolucion!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmaTNf4YhEs

Excellent response!

It sounds like your uncle may be the type of person whose dogma filter prevents him from actually hearing anything you said though. Even so, on behalf of all of us and your uncle, I really hope it was effective!

Good on you!!! Loved every

Good on you!!! Loved every word.