96 votes

Hornberger Nails NeoCons by Asking, "Who Won WWII?"

All patriots need to read this one:

Who Won World War II?
by Jacob G. Hornberger

I’m always intrigued by those in the pro-interventionist crowd who trot out World War II to justify U.S. imperialist interventionism in the Middle East and the rest of the world. They always act as if the United States won World War II and also saved the Jews from the Holocaust. Nothing could be so ridiculous.

With respect to the European Jews, virtually all of them were dead by the end of the war. World War II did not save them from the Holocaust.

Equally important, the United States did not enter the war to save the Jews from the Holocaust. It entered the war because Germany declared war on the United States after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

If the Japanese had not attacked and had Germany not declared war on the United States, it’s not at all clear that the United States would have ever entered the war. Recognizing that World War I had entailed a total waste of American lives and resources, most Americans were steadfastly opposed to entering another foreign war in Europe.

http://www.fff.org/blog/jghblog2012-02-16.asp

++++++

If you find this interesting, you may also find this one interesting...

"Would You Kill an American Hitler?"

http://www.dailypaul.com/215156/would-you-kill-an-american-h...

Treg

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interesting . . . worthwhile read--

I didn't see this stated directly in the blog, but whether or not there is documentation to the effect of the U.S. imposing sanctions on Japan for Japan's interference in China--

elderly Japanese I once interviewed (in Japan, decades ago) asserted that according to Japanese understanding, at least, Japan was threatened economically by the U.S. long before the Pearl Harbor attack--

Perhaps the U.S. was 'right' to threaten Japan economically, but elderly Japanese were quick to point out that America owned many of the best resources in the world and had many within *her* borders and was aggressively continuing to colonize--

and Japan has few resources and had a burgeoning population. If it was wrong for Japan to expand, it was wrong for the U.S. to expand, so the argument ends on both sides--

anyway--

for what it's worth . . .

good to have someone point out the truth on this.

The civil war didn't free the slaves; WWII didn't rescue the Jews--

:(

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

That is a good point, very good point

Colonizing resources was part of the Great Game that Japan jumped into with both feet.

'THE GREAT GAME' is something we all should google.

Treg

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

I will . . .

one of the handicaps many westerners have with regards to Asia, even if the westerner speaks the language . . . is the ability to read history/academic records with the fluency of Asian readers/speakers.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Enemy at the Gates...... In my opinion, very underrated film

I like the fact that the ideological Jewish Russian finds his philosophy of equality challenged by the reality of the inequality of life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmppIIVNX1Q&feature=related

Treg

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

Would You Kill an American Hitler?

http://www.dailypaul.com/215156/would-you-kill-an-american-h...

Treg

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

Katyn and "The Good War" ...

by Pat Buchanan in the American Conservative is another must read for those who are discovering that "Truth" is always the first casualty in every war.

Minnesota Mary

The Russians took Berlin.

The Russians took Berlin.

They took Berlin and the spoils of war

When I was in Greece, this foolish historically illiterate young American (me) asked the tour guide talking to all of us tourists (Italians, French, Germans, Poles, Dutch, British) ... "Can you tell us where all the great Greek sculptures are?" (yep, I thought they were just around there, somewhere. I mean you see them on every post card and Greek mag, right???? ).

There was a slight diffused chuckle through the crowd, but still not sensing my own ignorance I persisted, "I mean the really great ones that we see in these brochures, Aphrodite and Hercules? Where can we see these sculptures?"

Then the crowd of Europeans, embarrassed for me let out slightest gasp...

Then the tour guide said, "Oh, so you are from America? What part?"

...I replied, "a Phoenix Arizona".

"Oh well, that explains it then. (they all laughed but desperately held it back trying not to be rude to me I think).

"Let me ask you, have you heard of the Roman Empire? It came much later, after our majestic Greek civilization here?"

.... and I said, "Yes, of course, oh so the sculptures are in Italy, then?"

...and he said, "Well not quite." (and everyone gave a very quite under-the-breath laugh and took a deep breath knowing somehow this is going to be a long explanation to this dunce American

..." Did those schools of yours, did they teach you about WWII and who won the war?" .... and I said, "Well America did"

...And then the crowd could bare no more and loudly broke out in laughter, holding nothing back.

..the guide said calming down the crowd, "Now come on, we love your American movies for their charm and heroics, but for real history we should ignore them completely. Perhaps this young man watched to many John Wayne movies, after all, he is from Arizona"

...and everyone laughed at my expense some more.

...But being young and brash and having nothing to loose at this point I said..."Ok, so the Roman's took the great sculptures to back to Italy and then the Germans took them, am I right?"

... "No, our dear Mussolini GAVE them to Berlin, and Germany and Italy where suddenly big friends."

..."So I must go to ...Berlin to see them?"

The Tour guide...."No! no, no" and then audience member who could no longer contain themselves whispered two or three times as I strained to get the answer. 'St. Petersburg'.

The Tour guide said, "To the victor goes the spoils, and off went 2,000 of the best sculptures of the human form that has ever been made to St Petersburg. Russia as we all know took Berlin as the Americans looked on."

.."So I must go to Russia?" I said incredulously.

The tour guide said, "To the Hermitage Museum. Greece has been asking for them back but Russian phones don't work between Moscow and Athens." and everyone laughed again.

Years and years later, I finally had the chance to go. In 1998, I went to St Petersburg to see "the greatest sculptures ever done by the hand of man". While in St Petersburg and while staying at a Best Western (yes I was surprised they had one, that is how unworldly I am) I watched Larry King on CNN on my Hotel TV. The "Russia in Crisis!" segment was on. The CNN broadcast was full of old Russian women imagery, with scarfs and weathered faces that looked worried and sad, clothes all black. Yet I was in shock, I had just spent 7 days walking the streets in the city of St Pete and I never saw such a familiar image - familiar because I have shown it before, while living in the good ol USA. Everywhere I walked, young pretty Russian woman in colorful clothes where about, and the city was alive. But there was Larry King, fretting about "What will President Bill Clinton do next? The Russian Rubel money is in free fall, from 8 to $1 American dollar now to 33 to $1. Pres Clinton arrives in Moscow soon to discuss a bailout with the Russian President".

It was surreal. The next morning on CNN TV there was Bill Clinton shaking hands with the Russian President, everyone all smiles, a major "loan" was in place.... then somewhere later while back in New York Bill Clinton was asked why he did not get any backing for the loan from the "soviets', and Bills reply, I think was something to the effect that they had nothing to pledge for the loan!

I recall being SHOCKED and thinking, what had I just seen? 2000 of the most amazing sculptures EVER! All in the Hermitage. I was SHOCKED from one sculpture to the next. It was a fascinating and amazing tour that took 3 whole days. The Hermitage is THAT big. Think of 5 super malls put together, inlaid with gold and the best works of art from antiquity, and then you may get a sense of it. Nothing to pledge against the loan? Mmmmmmm

Here, let me convey just ONE small shocker...

The one young pretty female guide had told all of us tourists the story (I have to believe its true cause I am an historical illiterate) that long long ago, when the Roman Empire Ruled the earth, that the great Italian sculpture Michelangelo who had been working marble for years and years had heard of the "myth" of the Laocoon sculpture, the famed priest of Apollo. In this sculpture, Laocoon and his two sons are totally entwined by a large snake that is about to bite him on the hip. One of his sons, standing on one leg with the other raised and arms fighting the serpent tries to get free. It was told that just the space between the serpents bite and the son's ankle was more space than any Italian sculpture ever created out of marble.

So Michelangelo decided that before he did his next sculpture that he had to travel to Greece and to the Parthenon to see if it was indeed true that such a sculpture existed. Well it took months for Michelangelo to get to Athens, but when he got there ...this is what he found. http://ancientrome.ru/art/artworken/img.htm?id=2337

And when Michelangelo laid eyes upon this sculpture, he began crying and crying and did not stop crying for ten days. He laid before the feet of the sculpture, refused to eat, and was barely consolable. The myth was true. The greatest sculpture was before him, and that meant a far greater man than he, did it. Michelangelo was struck by how the serpent could wildly swing its body in mid action, great gaps and a fluidity, as if nothing held it up. Not one, but THREE men encircled by the TWO great serpents, all men & serpents caught, frozen in time, in fast action. Roman sculpture found it was hard enough to cut out a simple triangle of marble between two legs and between an arm and body. But here right before Michelangelo was huge immense gaps in marble that floated out effortlessly, men wildly swinging about, the serpents in full attack and the 3 men, fighting for their very lives.... Michelangelo wept, and would not take his eyes off of this: http://ancientrome.ru/art/artworken/img.htm?id=1372

I wept because Bill Clinton, Yale grad?... did not demand this sculpture as collateral for that loan.

Treg

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

Agreed. that was the plan all along.

To let them bleed out taking it. The price was selling out Eastern Europe. All the hoolpa that we saved the world for freedom and democracy during WW2 is garbage. We didn't do it to save the Jews. In fact, the US state department did what it could to prevent German Jewish refugees from coming here in the 1930's. Google the SS St. Louis incident.

FDR and Churchill tried to played a real world version of the game Risk to gain influence in the world, and got played by Stalin. The conceited nativity of socialist progressive FDR thought he was clever enough to outfox a old brutal pro like Stalin. He was played like a noob.

We betrayed Poland, particularly during the second Warsaw uprising. The US army occupied parts of Czechoslovakia, and were ordered to withdraw, living them to the Russians. We had thousands of US and allied POWS in German POW camps liberated by the Russians that were never seen again, and ended up doing gulag work in northern Siberia after the war.

Conscience does not exist if not exercised

"No matter how cynical you get, it's impossible to keep up!
---Lily Tomlin

Good article. Debunks some of

Good article. Debunks some of the commonly held falsities surrounding the supposedly justified intervention by the U.S. in WWII.

The only reason the U.S got involved in the first place was for the benefit of the war lobby along with expanding the welfare-warfare state, the robbing of civil liberties, and the strengthening of executive powers for future decades. It was a calculated effort that had very little to do with actually contributing to a win for the allied powers, it did, however, set the stage for a cold war with the Soviets and continued to enrich the military-industrial complex.

ahh but why did Japan attack?

ahh but why did Japan attack? what were FDR's motives to get the US into the war? thats what you need to ask

Here's why

http://www.dailypaul.com/211035/the-not-so-talked-about-fami...

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

Benjamin Freedman explains how the U.S. was led into WW1 and WW2

If you've never heard his speech from 1961, it is a MUST.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhFRGDyX48c

Written text: http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/freedman.htm

Correcting distortions is not 'off base'

I don’t think the readership here is going to be put off by articles which convey observances which vary from historical versions of events as they have previously been offered to us. Most of us here have already discovered how it is the establishment has been distorting perspectives on past events long before this perspective was offered. We’ve all already seen distortions on history that has occurred in our own lifetime and the attacks on people by the establishment when it is people stray form the company line. Heck, truth is distorted by those who tell us what kind of money we can use, what knowledge we should have and what war actions we should support that we’ve seen Dr. Paul attacked for simply repeating the government’s own version of 9/11 after it is the press they control has distorted what it is they previously purported as truth.

We know that Iran is being threatened because it is it is selling its oil for compensation other than petrodollars. We know that Libya’s economy was destroyed because it was selling oil for compensation other than petrodollars while also intending to establish a monetary fund to compete with the IMF using its excess petrodollars. We know that Iraq was attacked the second time because it was selling oil for compensation other than petrodollars. We know Iraq was kicked out of Kuwait because Kuwait and the rest of the human rights violating monarchies in OPEC cut a deal in 1973 for a guarantee of their generational sovereignties which they all will forever enjoy as long as they continue to exclusively sell their oil for petrodollars. We know that petrodollars held in reserve by all the rest of the world’s oil purchasers allows those who issue the proprietary FRD to manipulate the supply of that currency and extract wealth from that currency which remains stable due to its sheer volume held in reserve.

We know the version of what we were told in 1973 about the formation of OPEC isn’t exactly as it was told to us. We know the excuses we were given for going to war both times in Iraq, what we did in Libya, and what we seemingly are about to do in Iran are not exactly as it is the revisionists explain.

If it is those who still do not understand the underlying truth find it simpler to think of us as tin-foil hat wearing kooks…so be it………They will come around because the truth always eventually comes to light.

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

Speak softly

But carry a big stick!! This works for me, It's simple and to the point. I believe this is what RP is trying to say, and if elected, will do. It gets us out of this mess our foreign pollies created over the last 25 years and still protects us at home. At this point in time, I hope we can at least afford to do that.

dave anderson

oh wow

With respect to the European Jews, virtually all of them were dead by the end of the war. World War II did not save them from the Holocaust.

you must be joking. cause there were more "chosen survivors" collecting reparations from Germany after the war was over than there were jews living in all of Axis occupied territories before the war.

also, only 328k prisoners died (according to Red Cross documents) in all german camps, due to starvation from allied bombings and typhus. that old fairy tale doesn't work anymore.

.ro

No way could Germany beat the USSR even WITHOUT the US

The failure to capture Moscow, Leningrad and the 6th Army loss at Stalingrad doomed the Germany to a stalemate with the Soviets that they would lose over time. Germany could not compete with the Soviets industrial capacity nor her unlimited manpower that lie beyond the Ural mountains.

As far as Japan is concerned, any attempt to invade Russia would have ended in failure. China was soaking up the majority of her armies and resources, and the Japanese had no real tank forces or AT guns worth a name. The Soviets T-34's would have sliced and diced them. And like the Germans, the Japanese supply lines would have made it difficult if not impossible to keep their armies supplied in Russia, whereas the Russkies enjoyed short supply lines. The Germans had one soldier out of five doing security against Russian partisans who were hitting supply dumps and trains.

None of the aid the US sent to the USSR prior to those defensive battles had any effect on the outcome. Now the trucks and radio equipment we sent did help transport the Russians on their drive to Berlin, but the tanks, planes, guns we and the Brits sent at great cost through the Arctic were pretty much castoffs. Most of the Russian equipment was as good or better, and the maintenance of a mixture of UK/US gear was a logistic nightmare.

There's more, but in short, we should have stayed out of Europe and let these those Socialist tyrants beat each others brains out to the exhaustion both both countries.

Britain could have stayed out too, as Hitler had no designs on England, but Churchill wanted to play toy general. But thanks to us, the Soviets took over most of Eastern Europe and we let them take Berlin and push us out of Czechoslovakia.

Conscience does not exist if not exercised

"No matter how cynical you get, it's impossible to keep up!
---Lily Tomlin

The failure to capture

The failure to capture Moscow, Leningrad and the 6th Army loss at Stalingrad doomed the Germany to a stalemate with the Soviets that they would lose over time.

The loss of the 6th army occurred around a year after we entered the war.

Germany could not compete with the Soviets industrial capacity nor her unlimited manpower that lie beyond the Ural mountains.

The USA had a population and industrial output comparable to the Soviet Union. Arguably our intervention is what kept the British in the War, and arguably the threat of military action by a country, comparable in size and industrial capacity to Russia, on separate fronts helped to divert significant quantities of men and material from the Eastern Theater... which arguably is why the 6th wasn't better supported/relived, which is, as we all know, was the proximate reason the 6th was destroyed.

^---- the above isn't a declaration of support for our intervention, its just to point out that you're overestimating the capabilities of the Soviets and underestimating the Germans, and hence discounting the effect of USA involvement on the outcome of the war.

The Soviet military victory wasn't a foregone conclusion--- I mean hell, you reference the supply line overextension as a huge hurdle for the Germans: You're right it was--- Not only were they getting shot at, they were forced to use the same shitty infrastructure the Ruskies were using.

Long story short: Though I do dispute some of your analysis, your final conclusion is something I can get behind; we definitely should have let the Socialist Super Powers and their Autocratic Allies duke it out.

Please prove this statement

"on separate fronts helped to divert significant quantities of men and material from the Eastern Theater... which arguably is why the 6th wasn't better supported/relived, which is, as we all know, was the proximate reason the 6th was destroyed."

Way too little and too late to affect the Stalingrad battle.

The Russians had seriously degraded the German forces in meatgrinder battles in the city. The Germans were losing an on average a battalion (600 men) a day. Operation Torch didn't start until 8 November 1942 The Sovs launched their major counter offensive 11 days later at Stalingrad.

The German forces tied in South Africa, while substantial, would have been a drop in the bucket in Russia. They would have made no difference at the outcome of Stalingrad, as by then it was a foregone conclusion that many German generals foresaw. The Germans had employed their allies, the Italian, Hungarians,and Rumanians, to hold the northern flank of the 6th army. With inferior equipment and less enthusiasm to fight for Nazi cause, they fell apart under the Russian counteroffensive.

Hitler stand and fight order doomed the 6th army to slow starvation and degraded it's fighting ability. General Mainstein, the finest military general to command a mechanized army on the planet, could not break through the Russian's iron ring around the trapped Sixth army. In fact, he soon had his hands full trying to stop even a greater Russian encirclement from cutting off the German forces still in southern Caucasus trying to capture the oil fields there.

The biggest weapon in the Russians arsenal was Old Man Winter. The Luftwaffe could not fly enough supplies into the sixth army due to bad weather. Whatever equipment we had sent prior made no serious contribution on the battle.It was the T-34's ability with its wide tracks to navigate winter terrain that led to the speed of the encirclement of the sixth army.

No, Nothing we did made any appreciate difference at helping the Sov's at Stalingrad. Russian general Zhukov did everything right to win it. Stalingrad broke the German's nation's confidence and spirit, and afterwards knew Germany could never win. The specter of Napoleons historical disastrous retreat from Moscow loomed large in their minds.

FDR and Churchill tried to play the Russians to do all the heavy lifting fighting the Germans, and Stalin knew it. What they didn't realize until it was too late that Stalin played them, occupying all of eastern Europe! FDR, being the naive, sophisticated pinko socialist he was,was out-gamed by the more experienced and brutal Stalin. It just goes to show there is no honor among progressives. Sadly, many innocent people have to pay the price for their power struggles and overweening egos.

Conscience does not exist if not exercised

"No matter how cynical you get, it's impossible to keep up!
---Lily Tomlin

LMGTFY

USA is beginning to ramp up in late 1942.
~ 1 month before the encirclement of the 6th is completed we dispatch forces to Africa.
Between June 1942 and July 1943 German troop deployments shift away from the Eastern front by 17%, despite the fact their army size increases by 200k, reflecting redeployment to other theatres / a complete inability to reinforce the Eastern Front.

Germany never is able to amass the forces they need to break the encirclement... Partially because they're not concentrating 100% of their military capability on the eastern front as is reflected by the draw down of forces in the region as the USA starts to ramp up its war effort.

Also just for fun I thought I'd point out the following:

"Now the trucks and radio equipment we sent did help transport the Russians on their drive to Berlin, but the tanks, planes, guns we and the Brits sent at great cost through the Arctic were pretty much castoffs."

Trucks and radio equipment => mobility.
How do you encircle an opponent? => mobility.
How was the 6th army defeated? => encirclement.

Some wiki-links to some of the info I based my reasoning on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad
Dates: 23 August 1942 – 2 February 1943

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_World_War_II_(1942)
We dispatch the task Group escorting the troops for Operation Torch.
October 24, 1942

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Uranus
Encirclement of 6th army completed on Nov 22 1942

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_(World_War_II)
(Did a little reformatting of the data to make it legible in this speech blurb)

Total number of Soviet and the European Axis troops.[28]
Date Axis forces
June 1941 3,767,000 (900,000 in the west)
June 1942 3,720,000 (80% in the East)
July 1943 3,933,000 (63% in the East)

Date Red Army forces
June 1941 2,680,000 (in theater) 5,500,000 (overall) (~700,000 in Far East[29])
June 1942 5,313,000 (~700,000 in Far East[29])
July 1943 6,724,000 (~700,000 in Far East[29])

Counterpoint

"Trucks and radio equipment => mobility.
How do you encircle an opponent? => mobility.
How was the 6th army defeated? => encirclement."

Yes, but not by US trucks at the time of Stalingrad. T-34's were the primary vehicle. Their wide tracks and excellent cross country ability allowed them to go where nothing else could, especially wheeled trucks. The wide broad steppes where the real routes of travel for offensives, not roads. So unless you can show the actually number of US lend lease trucks employed by the Sovs in the encirclement, you have no argument;) Lend-lease trucks or not, it was a foregone conclusion that would have happened.

Not be until the final offensives in 1944 to Berlin that the lend-lease trucks and equipment came into their own. Even then, only for supply. The Russkies employed tank riders on the back of tanks which was effective in swarming the German lines and exploiting breakthroughs.

Sure the Allied forces drew some of the German forces. But they would have been there anyway, as Hitler was determine to hold everything they had conquered. Hitler unnecessary kept 100,000 troops to garrison Norway to protect his iron ore routes to Sweden. They might as well been in a POW camp for all the good they did him.

Wikipedia is ok, but you rshould read Paul Carrel's Hitler Moves East, William Craig's Enemy at the Gates, and several others to fully appreciate how well the Sovs took advantage of the Germans missteps at Stalingrad and General Zhukov brilliant execution of counter offensive. Giving credit that US invasion of North Africa and lend lease supplies tipped the balance and made the offensive possible is too much of a stretch. The Red Army finest hour was Stalingrad and the counter-offensive that followed was a military masterpiece, notwithstanding the odious ideology that both nations held.

Hitler's decision to invade Russia was madness. Even if he did not fight a two-front war with the US/UK, the words "epic", "huge", and "vast" are poor descriptions of how big Russia was. The Germans hi-tech mechanized army had no real hope of holding and maintaining their supply lines. One out of every three German tanks were out for repairs from just traveling long distances from one point to another.

Conscience does not exist if not exercised

"No matter how cynical you get, it's impossible to keep up!
---Lily Tomlin

The Battle of Kursk

was the strategic turning point in the Soviet-German war

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk#Soviet_plans

Very interesting battle that is little mentioned when the German invasion of the Soviet Union is discussed. Had the Germans won this battle which was post Stalingrad it is believed they may well have conquered the rest of the Soviet Union.

Such is life...

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

I studied that battle

and the Germans could not win. The Russkies had too many defensive layers that wore down the German advance. The new Panther tanks had teething problems, and the Elephant heavy assault tanks were easily isolated and taken out by Russian tank hunter squads.

Even if the Germans had succeeded at Kursk, they could not hope to hold their gains. Their front was too large to cover. The Sovs could and did attack anywhere. Panzer divisions served as emergency fire brigades to seal off holes in the lines. Its the equivalent of the proverbial dutch boy trying to plug leaks in the dyke, and running our of fingers and toes.

Sure, the Germans had great generals, equipment, and training, but it didn't matter. The Russkies would lose 5 tanks to every German one, but once that German tank was gone, there was noting else at the front to replace it, whereas the Sovs had T-34's and everything else coming out of their ears and then some.

There is a common saying among military experts "Amateurs talk of tactics, while professionals discuss logistics." In the epic war between the Germans and the Sovs, it's not about who has the best gear, but who could go the distance the longest. I think it was Lenin who said,"There is as certain quality about quantity." Which is probably the only thing he ever got right.

And we are making the same mistake. We expect too much from "Wonder Weapons", when in fact a small bunch of bad guys with cheap AKs and improvised IED's have bled our economy trying to upkeep our expensive and fragile weapon systems operating in a sandbox 24/7. It must costs millions of dollars just to KIA one bad guy, and only a few bucks for them to do the same to us.

The bad guys have an endless number of recruits that they can replace indefinitely, while we cannot unless we start a draft and put the nation on a wartime economy to continue the upkeep on our fancy war machines.

Conscience does not exist if not exercised

"No matter how cynical you get, it's impossible to keep up!
---Lily Tomlin

War is Debt, Debt is control

The ROthchild bank gangsters planned engineered and financed both sides of every war since waterloo. The bank gangster crime family Rothschild won stronger control over humanity through false debt created out of war and false compounding national debts generated out of thin air digitized at no cost brought to you by your local Rothschild central bank corporation. If somone can make a claim of debt upon you, all be it false debt, any type of immorality can be justifyabley heaped upon you and will be tolerated by all those around you. War is just more Rothschild false debt.

sovereign

The collectivists (globalists) won.

There has been a plan in place for more years than this article covers. He makes a number of valid observations about WWIi and how it all panned out but the blueprint was already in place long before WWIi or even WWI was fought.

The plan to change America into a collectivist nation was uncovered by Norman Dodd the chief investigator of the Reece Committee set up in 1953 to investigate tax-exempt foundations like the Ford, Rockefeller and Carnegie foundations. It is worth watching this interview of Norman Dodd in 1982 by G. Edward Griffin to gain at least the beginning of a clue about what has been going on in the United States for a very long time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZqZGEBkX1s

A book that covers the time of FDR's Presidency is The People's Pottage by Garet Garret that is free to download at mises.org. This describes how FDR carried out a revolution to convert America into a socialist state within the form of a Constitutional republic. This explains much of the annoying dissonance one experiences between the rhetoric and reality of American politics.

http://mises.org/books/pottage.pdf

So while it may be argued that the communists won WWII that seems to confer victor status on the Soviet Union but in fact they were just one side of the dialectic. The other side were the Allies and their democratic capitalist system that was already in the process of being collectivised and indeed the globalists were using the two world wars and a further condition of perpetual war to accomplish this goal.

http://mises.org/books/perpetual.pdf

The result is or soon will be the globalist objective of the Marxist synthesis, a socialist corporatist fascist totalitarian world government.

It is also not strictly true to say that FDR prevented the Jews from immigrating to the US before WWII. There was a very strong resistance from the Zionist Jewish Agency to any Jewish emigration from Germany to anywhere but Palestine.

The Evian Conference of 1938 was convened at the instigation of FDR but he was under pressure from his Jewish lobby to refuse to take any Jewish refugees as were the governments of the other participants. Hitler was willing to let all the Jews leave if the other countries agreed to take them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Évian_Conference

The Zionist leadership is on record as stating that it was better for the Jews in Germany to perish and so give impetus to their Zionist project.

http://www.nkusa.org/Historical_Documents/tenquestions.cfm

One interesting fact is that the plan for world government is fairly well correlated with the preparations for and setting up of the Federal Reserve in 1913 which is of course the means whereby the globalists have funded their ambitious objectives. Such chutzpah!

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

Your getting way off base here.

Long time lurker, first time poster. I had to reply to this. It's long, please bear with me.

Listen, this is going WAY off base folks. You really expect to win over people by telling them this crap? I'm all for non-interventionism, these nation building wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are ridiculous, bombing Libya, attempting to involve us in Syria, and this facade with Iran, criminal. But really, WWII?

Look, this article and some posters say there isn't proof Hitler wanted to invade the US, true, he wanted to try and stop us from helping the UK, but that is just a guess, just like saying, "UK and France could have had peace with Germany any time," is also Just a guess. You are assuming that Hitler would not have attacked them once he was ready to anyway. You are Guessing that once he finished with Russia he would stop. He might not have.

It is not a guess.

It is not a guess. Hitler offered peace multiple times. Even offered to leave Poland if Danzig were allowed to come back to Germany. All rejected by the governments of UK (N. Chamberlain was pressured by Roosevelt and the warmonger group around Churchill) and France.

Ever heard of the "Phoney War" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War

After UK and France declared war on Germany UK shortly bombed northern Germany and France shortly invaded western Germany. Germany did not retaliate for several months.

Only when UK and France threatened to invade Norway and Benelux Germany was forced to occupy these countries.

UFOs are real
4 Hour Witness DVD (radar operators, pilots, scientists, military)
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud49Gh9yYLs
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpHAxxRKksQ

it's a discussion.

this site, believe it or not, is not dedicated to electing a man.

it's a site to discuss ideas.

if you want a group of people who don't talk about anything that might "hurt the party" then you're welcome to join the neocons or neolibs. they are party first, I hear.

Continued

The fact of the matter is you had a genocidal bastard creating a damn empire with no idea where he would stop. Russia would likely have lost to the two front war against Germany and Japan. If France and the UK hadn't gotten involved, then the Axis could very well have conquered all of Asia and Africa, and then probably would have taken out France and the UK just to finish Europe. Stopping that possible outcome, in my opinion, was most definitely necessary for our own protection. We would not have been able to stand against the resulting Empires. We are safe from invasion today, like Dr. Paul has said. But only because we stopped that possibility.

So yes, non-interventionism is great, lets do it, lets get our people back home and get out of other countries. Lets stop policing the world of these relatively nonthreatening to us events. Lets stop nation building. But I do want to know that if Anyone tries the same thing Hitler was trying we have, and will continue to have, the means to put a stop to it.

There is a difference

There is a difference between that what Hitler was trying to accomplish and what the warmongering mass media in UK, France, US etc. insinuated he was trying to accomplish.

The war was started (and escalated) by the Allies.

UFOs are real
4 Hour Witness DVD (radar operators, pilots, scientists, military)
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud49Gh9yYLs
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpHAxxRKksQ