35 votes

Michael Steele, MSNBC TV commentator, gives his rejoinder. Postmortem 1

Michael Steele, MSNBC TV commentator, gives his rejoinder. Postmortem 1 .

http://youtu.be/aIuhGDDrBUg




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Delayed Gratification is a

Delayed Gratification is a great concept. Hearing this guy say the system is corrupt, but we have to continue it because people are dependent on it is the problem.

I know we have supporters of all age groups for Ron Paul. But this really frustrates me as a part of the younger generation to hear that you are essentially expected to pay into and perpetuate the system until it collapses on its own. Steele fails to realize that the system is failing and the cliff keeps getting steeper. The longer we wait, the harder the fall.

"Where liberty is, there is my country." -Benjamin Franklin

What is lacking

among fresh RP supporters is understanding that any idea (a theory, goal) does not correspond 100% with reality. The greatness of Ludwig von Mises was that he did not bring value judgment into his logic. But here we are trapped into what is "right" and "moral."

I think Michael Steele (who is usually not very bright during interviews) was very candid and logical.

It's Apparently True...

And it sucks because Ron Paul would've had a field day with him, and we need to bring that force of reason to the base if we're going to be a governing party.

YOU face reality.

When the currency system comes crashing down, so will the entitlement system. When that occurs, only Ron Paul will be able to try keep the angry mobs from tearing the elites apart. THEY better hope he succeeds.

It is not always

a grateful job to predict future. Since China understands well that if they demand gold payment for their exports, their factories will move elsewhere fast, they may accept world paper money together with USA, EU and Russia.

Why would they want to demand payment in gold?

Since China understands well that if they demand gold payment for their exports, their factories will move elsewhere

The supply chain takes in USD on one end via retailers, and spends Yuan on the other end for raw materials, rent, salaries, wages, etc. At some point some of those USD get converted to Yuan. Demanding payment in gold would just add another layer of conversion, from USD to gold and then from gold to Yuan. Why would they want to do that?

If the concern is inflation, then they already reflect that in the prices they charge. As their expenses go up they raise their prices in Yuan (or foreign currency).

Setting the price in grams of gold would tend to do the same, over the long run, but it would add day-to-day fluctuations that would sometimes have them charging more than their competitors, and other times have them cutting into profits for no good reason simply because some central bank or whatever decided to temporarily depress the price of gold.

In my humble opinion...

I thought Steele was given no other choice but to answer honestly and morally. For 30 seconds, Jan had Michael in an uncomfortable position - one of integrity.

He knew he could he morally argue the systems purpose, but could not willingly back the systems operation without taking hell for it.

Steele played it safe and survived for another day.

Thanks for the continued great work, Jan - wish we could see the end and his response to your brain grenade!

They that give up liberty for security deserve neither.

I love

How he emphasizes the fact that charities are INDEPENDENT and have FREE WILL. Isn't that the most important key to a FREE society? If you take away INDEPENDENCE and FREE WILL from anything, what you are left with is TYRANNY! Why are people so stupid? *sighs*

I can't see why almost

I can't see why almost everyone is critical of Steele's comments. He seemed to be stating Ron Paul's way of thinking, since Ron Paul knows he needs to educate the people to get them on his side (ie. make it personal for each individual) to be able to eliminate programs over time.

Steele was not rejecting the solutions like Ron Paul's, but he was indicating that any solution needs to make sense directly to the individual. For most of us the idea of freedom is good enough, but when it comes to many individuals who are on a social program, they will need to see a path to the future under our vision, where they will not be left out in the cold.

Many will be ready to suffer some, if they can be shown that there is still a future with the solutions we provide or conversly if it can be shown that with the current path there is no future. Doing both would be ideal.

The sad thing is that Steele

The sad thing is that Steele actually thinks he's clever.

Resist the temptation to feed the trolls.

What is it going to take?

What will it take for us to accept that Republican/
Democrat leadership are two sides of the same coin and they are both tails...

SteveMT's picture

It's like watching the WWF, but without the action.

Yep. They are two sides of the same coin and they are both heads up the same butt.

Is Steele a Democrat? Oh,

Is Steele a Democrat? Oh, no. -- wait -- he's a Neo-con. Same thing.

No...

No, not the same thing. But close enough for government work.

The only difference being who they pander to.

I like the point all these so

I like the point all these so called "Democrats" are making, but here is a news flash for all of them.

Imagine a perfect society when there is no poverty, no poor people, everyone has equal opportunity, free health care, free education, even higher education, even everyone has a job !

Amazing isn't it ! I know I have lived in it, it was called Soviet Union, the only way you can create this society is by having a totalitarian rule of the state, so the people who didn't want to live their lives as the rules dictated, wouldn't leave the country or should I say crawl over the mine field under barbed fence.

There is no other way it will work, and what do you know Obama is making a nice progress !

Michael Marxist Steele

Michael Marxist Steele mindlessly repeats that government central planning and control is the only possible option and nothing else can ever be considered. No alternative option is possible unless that option is another version of government central planning and control.

Michael Steele - the unapologetic champion of massive Marxism. Karl would be proud.

Michael Steele proudly served as chairman of the National Republicommunist Committee.

Let it not be said that we did nothing.-Ron Paul
Stand up for what you believe in, even if you stand alone.-Sophia Magdalena Scholl

Just curious as to why we can't vote up of down on editorials?

/blogs........

Some great comments here I want to vote up but there's NO BUTTON!

"If you want something you've never had before, you have to do something you've never done before." Debra Medina

reedr3v's picture

I have long wondered that also

.

"Two wings of the same bird."

?!

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is argument of tyrants. It is the creed of slaves." William Pitt in the House of Commons November 18, 1783
"I have one word for you...predator drones. Oh, you think I'm kidding?" Obombya

Steele makes the SLO (Standard Libertarian Objection)

The SLO is "I can't see it working. What is there 'out there' to replace the government program that I DO SEE as helping now? Because I don't see, I don't FEEL what you are 'morally' saying can be 'right'." -- that is the SLO.

Its a great objection that arises from Man's normal functioning Emotional Complex and it is ALWAYS answered poorly by libertarians for that past 50 years. The reason that its answered poorly is it calls for EXTRAPOLATION into the future, predicting "what will happen under freedom of action". We know freedom's gifts are unpredictable. The reason libertarians don't go there, is they simply fear to be proved wrong. We know we will be wrong because Freedom is unpredictable: no one knows exactly how the future will play out: No one person knows that a Steven J o b s II will not come along and invent an energy process 2/3 cheaper than oil. Noone knows the next great Bill Gates II who will invent a chain of charity hospitals that work for everyone. Noone knows who will buy up the freeways and network them. No one knows the future and what it will unfold, its a chaotic system. Ok, fair enough, but we must DARE TO BE WRONG if we are to OVERCOME the EMOTIONAL objection, as seen very clearly in this clip of Michael Steele. I don't fault Mr. Steele, and nor should you, its the Standard Libertarian Objection.

We must get over this fear to dream the Libertarian Utopian Dream. We must accept we will be proved wrong. But just like Gene Roddenberry's first Star Trek with Kirk and Spock, that gave us mobile 'communicators' ( cell phones )

and sliding doors ( automatic doors ), we can be right sometimes. Moreover, we must get over this fear to dream the Utopian dream 10 YEARS FROM NOW. This is the special vision that Mankind deeply desires. Does it work? Sure does, it transformed Russian into the USSR and China into Red China. Always 5 and 10 year socialist plans abounded, and failed. But the communal socialist dream never died, it seemed just out there, only if, and just out of reach.

Liberty & Utopia PART II.

The reason why liberty & freedom advocates do not connect into Man's Emotional Complex is they fail, I think intentionally out of fear to be proved wrong, to constantly IMAGINE UP what a Utopian Liberty World (ULW) would look like should a libertarian bit of freedom enter into the social picture. Libertarians know that the future is wide open under a regime of freedom that respect everyone's individual rights. They wisely note how unpredictable it is. Yet the fact is we humans NEED, indeed CRAVE such visions. We eat up Star Trek and Star Wars. These are NOT dystopian visions of the future. And so, they show problems solved and not solved. Unlike Rand's dystopian Shrugged or Orwell's 1984 or the Brave New World, what the Liberty movement is SORELY MISSING is a "ten years from now" Utopian vision of liberty. From small detective shows placed 10 years into the future to medical shows placed 10 years into the future, Americans and the world is missing that vision. Its a vision that can show PROBLEMS solved with liberty.

Take a simple one. Imagine the libertarian principle ending government ownership in roads and show what social life is like ten years later. A fictional writer has two choices, write it as a horror dis-Utopian future, or, write it as an amazing transformation, a Utopian future.

Take this detective plot line: Raker is a 50 year old detective who is use to dealing with drug crimes and the seedy side of life in 2012. Suddenly while going through a crack house, Raker gets hit hard on the back of the head. Raker wakes up, to his surprise, 10 years later. Turns out his only daughter hung by him all these years and refused to "pull the plug" on him. When the "new drug" came, all it took was a shot to wake him out of his coma. Raker and his daughter leave the hospital and have a nice talk, catching up on things as they ride down the freeway in her car. Then Raker suddenly notices that she is not really steering the car. Why the car and all the cars and even the freeway is "networked" and "drives itself". He looks out and sees that many things have changed, and for the better. Then he asks what time it is, and the car replies "its 5pm". He now notices there is NO TRAFFIC JAMS. Wow, things are for the better. "How did THAT happen?", he asks. "They privatized the roads" ..."What?!!! You've got to be kidding me!" His loving daughter explains to him, there are lots of good changes dad, since we freed the country from our old ways. Still curious about what happened to him, he asks to return to the seedy side of town, to the crack building where he got hurt. What does Raker find? Clean new condos. "What happened?" he asks his daughter. She says "dad, a lot of good things happened, lets get the drugs the doctor suggested." ...Then Raker asks as they enter the drug store, "Where's my prescription?" and the daughter answers "The doctor just um, emailed, yea he emailed it to my T-Phone and I sent it here. Its waiting for us now." As the two walk in Raker notices and recognizes a well known, yet well dressed, crack-head walking out of the store. The daughter says, "Dad, there are no prescriptions any more, you just take the doctors advice as to what medicines to get, or not. The medicines I like are FDA stamped, but we can buy cheaper ones too if you like." Raker replies, dam, I guess 10 years has gone by. I am 60 years old now, but I don't feel a day older." And the daughter replies, "It will take me a while to explain that one dad. Lets just say 5 years ago I gave you lots of new treatments, ok?" and hugs him.

(anyway, you get the idea -- the FUTURE under freedom and deregulation and privatization is BETTER.)

Fictional Libertarian UTOPIA that is 10 years out is SORELY missing. And it is that VISION, that EMOTIONAL vision of YES, THINGS CAN GET BETTER (with freedom) that will supercharge our movement. Reagan had his "shinning city on a hill". We will should give them the "shining PLANET in the Universe".

Treg

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

This is EXACTLY what we are fighting.

Steele is right, the moral argument runs in to a brick wall when he replies with "How is granny going to live without medicare?" We need to prepare everyone with a solid one liner to fire back at those who believe people are too dumb to live without big govt. My favorite?

If you capped federal spending at 2004 levels, we would balance the budget tomorrow. We had all our entitlements, two wars, healthcare was cheaper and taxes were lower. Unemployment was 5.5%... No one knows how much better off we could be if we keep following that trend line, but isn't it worth a shot?

Sorry"a solid one liner to fire back" does NOT convince anyone.

Not even me who IS A LIBERTARIAN. What does convince us is the Utopian Vision of Freedom. And as I wrote, its sorely missing in the LP movement.

When one looks at fiction, one can find plenty of distopian visions of the future: Bladerunner, Gattaca, Robo Cop, for example all come to mind. But one cannot find a positive LIBERTY based Utopian vision.

When Americans look to the future, its all SCAREY and BAD and so the underlying answer is always: We need government.

Perhaps Atlas, 1984, Fahrenheit 451 and V for Vendetta all warned of too much government, but still what is lacking -- sorely lacking -- is the libertarian Utopia vision of social problems solved with MORE freedom.

Treg

List of dystopian movies:

Atlas Shrugged: Part I (2011)
Babylon A.D. (2008)
Battle Royale (2000),
Battle Royale II: Requiem (2003)
Blade Runner (1982)
Brave New World (1998)
Brazil (1985)
Death Race 2000 (1975) and its prequel Death Race (2008)
Demolition Man (1993)
Escape from New York (1981) and its sequel
Escape from L.A. (1996)
Fahrenheit 451 (1966), based on the Ray Bradbury novel
Gattaca (1997)
The Handmaid's Tale (1990)
The Hunger Games (2012)
Idiocracy (2006)
The Island (2005)
In Time (2011)
Judge Dredd (1995), based on the comic of the same name
Kin-dza-dza! (1986)
Land of the Blind (2006)
Logan's Run (1976)
The Matrix (series) (1999–2003)
Megiddo: The Omega Code 2 (1999)
Metropolis by Fritz Lang (1927)
Minority Report (2002), based on Philip K. Dick's short story "Minority Report"
Never Let Me Go (2010)
Nineteen Eighty-Four, based on the George Orwell novel of the same name, filmed in 1956 by Michael Anderson and in 1984 by Michael Radford
The Omega Man (1971)
Privilege (1967)
Punishment Park (1971)
Revengers Tragedy (2003)
The Running Man (1987), loosely adapted from Stephen King's novel of the same name
A Scanner Darkly (2006), adapted from Philip K. Dick's novel of the same name
Screamers (1995), based on the short story "Second Variety" by Philip K. Dick
Serenity (2005), a continuation of the canceled Fox television series Firefly by Joss Whedon
Silent Running by Douglas Trumball (1972)
Sleeper (1973)
Sleeping Dogs (1977)
Soldier (1998)
Southland Tales (2007)
Soylent Green (1973), based on the Harry Harrison novel Make Room! Make Room!
Strange Days (1995)
THX 1138 (1971)
The Secret (2016)
The Trial (1962)
Total Recall (2012)
Turkey Shoot (1982)
Ultraviolet (2006)
V for Vendetta (2006), based on Alan Moore's graphic novel
Welt am Draht (1973)
Z.P.G. (1972)

[edit] Alien controlled dystopias (both governmental and societal)

Alien controlled dystopias are separate from general dystopias in that they are enacted on a people by an outside invader rather than members of the oppressed's own species.

Battlefield Earth (film) a 2000 film adaptation of the novel, starring John Travolta.
The Chronicles of Riddick (2004)
Dark City (1998)
Fantastic Planet (1973)
Resiklo (2007)
They Live (1988) adapted from Eight O'Clock in the Morning by Ray Nelson
Titan A.E. (2000)
Transmorphers (2007)

[edit] Corporate based dystopias (nongovernmental)

A corporate based dystopia is similar to a government/societal dystopia with the exception that the repressing power is a private company rather than a government. These stories generally include the motive of commercial profit instead of, or in addition to, the benefits of increased power and authority.

Alien series
Daybreakers
The Fifth Element
The Final Cut
Fortress
Gamer
Hardware
Highlander II: The Quickening
I, Robot loosely adapted from Isaac Asimov's book
The Island
Johnny Mnemonic
Metropia
Max Headroom: 20 Minutes into the Future
No Escape
Paranoia 1.0
Parts: The Clonus Horror
Prayer of the Rollerboys
Repo! The Genetic Opera
Repo Men
Resident Evil series by Paul W. S. Anderson
RoboCop and its sequels RoboCop 2 and RoboCop 3
Rollerball (1975) and its remake Rollerball (2002)
Shredder Orpheus (1990)
Soylent Green
Surrogates
Tank Girl
Tekken
Total Recall and its television sequel Total Recall 2070

[edit] Organized Crime-Based Dystopias

These films are essentially films about the Mafia or any other criminal organizations, such as the Triads, Yakuza, Russian Mafia, or Cosa Nostra, except that they all take place in the future.

Looper (2012)

[edit] Cyberpunk/techno

Cyberpunk is a science fiction subset, characterized by a focus on "high tech and low life" where advanced technology itself (not AI) is dystopian. "Classic cyberpunk characters were marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society in generally dystopic futures where daily life was impacted by rapid technological change, an ubiquitous datasphere of computerized information, and invasive modification of the human body."[2]

Aachi & Ssipak
Akira
Avalon
Blade Runner
eXistenZ
Ghost in the Shell
Johnny Mnemonic
Metropolis by Osamu Tezuka
Natural City
Renaissance
The Terminator
Videodrome
The Matrix

[edit] Post-apocalyptic

Post-apocalyptic storylines take place in the aftermath of a disaster - typically nuclear holocaust, war, plague - that justifies a civilization's turn towards dystopian like behaviors. Although not a requisite, most post-apocalyptic visions have a man-made cause.

9 (2009)
12 Monkeys (1995)
20 Years After (2008)
2019, After the Fall of New York (1983)
28 Days Later (2002) and its sequel 28 Weeks Later (2007)
The Bed-Sitting Room (1969)
A Boy and His Dog (1974)
Blindness (2008)
The Blood of Heroes (1989)
The Book of Eli (2010)
Carriers (2009)
Casshern (2004)
Cherry 2000 (1987)
Children of Men (2006)
Cyborg (1989)
Def-Con 4 (1985)
Delicatessen (1991)
[Dystopia: 2013] (2012)
Five (1951)
Genesis II (1973)
Hell Comes to Frogtown (1988)
I Am Legend (2007)
Le Dernier Combat (1983)
Logan's Run (1976)
The Last Man on Earth (1964)
The Noah (1975)
Mad Max (1979), The Road Warrior (1981) and Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome (1985)
On The Beach (1959) and its remake On the Beach (2000)
Origin: Spirits of the Past (Anime) (2006)
Panic in Year Zero! (1962)
Parasite (1982)
Planet Earth (1974)
The Postman (1997)
The Quiet Earth (1985)
Quintet (1979)
Robot Holocaust (1986)
The Road (2009)
Rock & Rule (1983)
Six-String Samurai (1998)
Tank Girl (1995)
Terminator Salvation (2009)
Testament (1983)
Things To Come (1936)
Threads (1984)
Time of the Wolf (2003)
Titan A.E. (2000)
The Ultimate Warrior (1975)
Ultraviolet (2006)
Ultra Warrior (1990)
WALL-E (2008)
Waterworld (1995)
The World, the Flesh and the Devil (1959)
Zardoz (1974)
Tomorrow, When the War Began (film) (2010)
Damnation Alley (1977)
Downstream (2010)

[edit] Miscellaneous

2009 Lost Memories
The City of Lost Children
Encrypt
Invasión
Motorama
Planet of the Apes (1968), Beneath the Planet of the Apes, Escape from the Planet of the Apes, Conquest of the Planet of the Apes, Battle for the Planet of the Apes and the remake Planet of the Apes (2001)
Pleasantville
The Man Who Fell to Earth
Sunshine

[edit] Disputed Dystopias

A Clockwork Orange (1971), adapted from Anthony Burgess's novel of the same name
Dark Star (sci-fi satire film)

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

The problem is simple~~~

"THEY" have the POWER, we don't, and they rub it in our faces, especially currently at the GOP caucuses where cheating, lying, and stealing are justified and even protected by local law enforcement WHICH IS EGREGIOUS & BENEATH CONTEMPT!

They will just spin the vision, as if drugs all became free....

Don't kid yourselves as they will just "spin-doctor" the vision, make it sound like the "VISION" is about illegal substances being free everywhere & the nation turning into Somalia.

Because everyone could get drugs without any prescriptions, thus society would be in chaos. That is what they'll do.

No, we need to chuck the Democrats out first...full stop.
For "government intervention" never worked..

Perhaps, perhaps there will have to be a great deal of moderation to prevent chaos. To prevent drugs leaking out on streets from every direction, due to the war on drugs ending.

But with rigorous oversight by State government, (with programs in place to DRAIN the funds of cartels) such chaos would be short-lived; as illegal drugs would quickly disappear from the market & be shipped overseas. The only reason they exist to begin with? The CIA's drug-running scam.

Steele what the heck is wrong with you? Are you even Republican?

What kind of alternate reality are YOU living in, to even come up with these answers?!?

"We can't start phasing them out of Medicare because they'll be phased out to nothing."
"Old people will be left in the streets, to lose their coverage."

Good GOD!!!!

This is the exact out-of-reality crap that Democrats spout off all the time, with THESE kind of smears to bash Dr. Paul!!!!

What are you, a DEMOCRAT?
Who in the holy hell is writing your speeches?

Fact: Justin Amash just pointed out we can cut over $500 billion out of the budget, by starting transitions from State Run healthcare to private insurance.
Fact: Justin Amash and several other house members, including Chaffetz, pointed out that in just a few years we can be out of government health-care system entirely..
..with proper oversight of private retirement accounts.
Fact: Big Government created the problem, it won't solve it.

Fact: Ron Paul has been saying this consistently for 30 years. And he has REPEATEDLY said no one would be left in the streets, yet you just repeated MSM lies.
Fact: Most conservatives agree with his proposal, and some are still off in left-field on foreign policy. Those people as Mark Williams said, seem to be Democrats..

Thats such a copout

when he says we need another program to transition them on. I thought the point was to transition them off the programs?

Anybody like Steele

who agrees there's a problem but can't or won't come up with a solution other than a government one is useless. Thanks Jan.

"If you want something you've never had before, you have to do something you've never done before." Debra Medina

a clip from RON PAUL “PLAN TO RESTORE AMERICA”

"ENTITLEMENTS:
Honors our promise to our seniors and veterans, while allowing young workers to opt out. Block grants Medicaid and other welfare programs to allow States the flexibility and ingenuity they need to solve their own unique problems without harming those currently relying on the programs."

Here is the answer he needs... it's not the role of the federal government. States are free to implement such programs. There will always be programs for the needy. We do have a moral responsibility to take care of our poor. That could be done more effectively, at less cost, at the local and state level vs the federal level.

How awesome it would be to have programs that provide wind beneath people's wings and encourage creativity, instead of make it impossible for them to climb out of a deep pit of poverty, as our current programs largely do.

We have to face the truth about the unsustainability of the current programs. Ron Paul is the only one with a plan that will actually protect them.