4 votes

Deceit is Powerful

Anyone failing to know better will be someone injured by an effective fraud.

This Topic intends to find the agreeable parts of two sides in a conflict where the conflict is fraudulent.

When a person is born into this world there is an effort to hand that new person a script and on that script the new person will read his or her part in the fraudulent conflict.

All those who agree to play a part in the fraudulent conflict are victims.

Those who invent the fraudulent conflict win.

Those who profit at the expense of the victims know better than to fight each other according to the fraudulent conflict.

The idea with this topic is to avoid focus and attention on the things that antagonize one person against another, and instead of following that script, the idea is to find where one side is encouraged by the other side.

In order to do that, it may be necessary to employ empathy, sympathy, and whatever power is available in order to know what thoughts and actions are sources of encouragement on both sides.

This ends this introduction.

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The two faces of Capitalism

1. Free Market
2. Deceptively Free Market (free for the deceivers, the bill is extracted from the deceived)

Being one of the few people who admit openly that my viewpoint is lower in quality and higher in cost compared to a higher quality and lower cost viewpoint I see a need to defend against any perception that is contrary.

I may present my viewpoint concerning the two faces of capitalism as if I know everything, however that is merely a consequence of having to Stand on something in order to go somewhere.

In my further defense against misunderstanding I think it is important to build a solid foundation, then communicate that solid foundation, step by step, and in so doing any progress resulting in "painting one's self into a corner" or onto the edge of a cliff, can be reversed, going back one step, until the error of turning off course can be discovered, or, in other words: don't leave a trail of crumbs if the idea is to maintain a way out of a potentially bad situation, the birds may eat those crumbs, and Hansel and Gretel are then lost.

Life is worth living.

From that foundation the living being has adapted by some means, by God, or by competitive genetic adaptation (which can still include God's design), to choose between path A and path B, or, in other words:

Morality, willpower, and relative, competitive, adaptation.
a. Things that further life being good, and worth living.
b. Things that destroy life, make life bad, not worth living.

Liberty versus Crime
a. False Liberty versus False Crime (Legal Crime or Monopoly)
b. Accurate Perception (knowing better because there are always options, choices, relative comparisons between proposed option A and proposed option B)

If I see where someone challenges my proposed viewpoint I step back, following the steps I have made, to see where my viewpoint has made a wrong step. Most of the time, with very few exceptions, I don't have to step further back than step 3 above.

I may be very wrong in the steps I've taken to find where Capitalism branches off from a principled, competitive, choice, into a dictate, false, enforced, monopoly.

I offer:

Karl Menger

"...every individual will attempt to secure his own requirements as completely as possible to the exclusion of others."


"Wealth can therefore also be defined as the entire sum of goods at an economizing individual’s command, the quantities of which are smaller than the requirements for them. Hence, if there were a society where all goods were available in amounts exceeding the requirements for them, there would be no economic goods nor any “wealth.”"

The concept is based upon a simple formula made overly complicated - in my opinion.

Wealth = power commanded by some people over other people

Explaining how the above bookmarks the division between Voluntary Capitalists and Involuntary Capitalists is not possible without two way communication between myself, or A., (a power that proposes to know better) and someone else, or B. (a power that desires to know better and is therefore a power that chooses to entertain the viewpoint offered).

A. Someone who has studied this and arrived at a competitive explanation.
B. Someone who desires a competitive explanation and therefore is willing to understand A., if possible.

Rather than type out volumes of explanation, and in order to keep sight of the goal of this Topic I offer a short cut:

Gary North


In theory, there are two possible solutions, neither of which has any possibility of being implemented in my lifetime or yours.

One solution is free banking. This was Ludwig von Mises' suggestion. There would be no bank regulation, no central bank monopolies, no bank licensing, and no legal barriers to entry. Let the most efficient banks win! In other words, the solution is a free market in money.

Another solution is 100% reserve banking. Banks would not be allowed to issue more receipts for gold or silver than they have on deposit. Anything else is fraud. There would be regulation and supervision to make sure deposits matched loans. This was Murray Rothbard's solution. The question is: Regulation by whom? With what authority?

There would be no government-issued money. There would be no government mint. There would be no legal tender laws. There would be no barriers to entry into coin production.

There would also be no free services. There is no such thing as a free lunch."

And finally:

Equitable Commerce

"How evidently the system had risen ABOVE the man! The idea of the absolute inviolability of every person must lead and predominate in any movement, or it will proceed in confusion and end in despair."

Gary North, if I understand him, knows that competition is a synonym for Liberty, therefore the error is the missing choice:

Enforced Monopoly Money
Gold as Legal Money

Where is the competition choice, C, in that list?

The error is a matter of perception. I can try to explain.

Gary North, and almost all (but there are exceptions) the Austrian Economists (including Ron Paul) agree, as I agree, that competition will be the force that returns all the Despots and all the Victims of Despotism (which is everyone including the Despots), back to Liberty.

Despotism is understood to be this:

Legal Monopoly Enforcement A.
Legal Monopoly Enforcement B.

That is a fraudulent competition. That fraudulent competition appears to be competitive, which then appears to be forcing quality up (living standards going up), and costs down (the price paid to exist, or costs of living being forced down), but it is a false competition, and it is measurably false since living standards decline while costs of living increase under such a false regime.

That is understood by almost all the Austrian Economists (the real ones, not the fake ones) and therefore the following is an example of competition:

A. Legally Enforced Fraudulent Money
B. Legally produced Gold and Silver backed money

That can be proven to be an example of competition as the fact that Gold and Silver is made legal, or allowed to be Legal, will force the dishonest money out of business, very quickly.

What is not understood, perhaps, at least not admitted by many, or even most, of the Austrian Economists is the fact that there will always be alternatives that render Gold and Silver money too costly.

As such:

A. Legally Enforced Fraudulent Money (going out of business)
B. Legally produced Gold and Silver backed money (forcing the fraudulent stuff out of business)
C. Whatever does compete with Legally produced Gold and Silver backed money by offering higher quality money (more powerful) and lower cost money (known as "interest").

That ends this effort with one interesting note:

If power is produced into a state of oversupply the price of power reduces while purchasing power (the quality of money) increases (also known as monetary appreciation) because power reduces the cost of production.

And a warning:

As soon as anyone willfully hatches a plan to target and then injure an innocent person, for profit, or for any "reason", that is the moment a step is taken away from Liberty, and then that idea may become an act, and the act driven by the idea results in the willful injury of the innocent victim, in a word: a crime - stepping further away from Liberty.

The "reasons" are even more numerous than the actual crimes, because they are lies, and one lie requires another one to cover the first, and then there are two lies needed to cover two more lies one new one each to cover each old one, and then there are four, then sixteen, then sixteen times sixteen, or more, then even more, and soon enough there are libraries full of lies that cover the first one.


You are too deep

Turn that sort of thinking into practical actions.
Ron Paul would benefit from your intelligent thinking.
Practicality is what is required now.
Give that some thought.

"In the end, more than they wanted freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all -- security, comfort, and freedom. When ... the freedom they wished for was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free."


I am disconnected by many things.

1. Too Deep
2. Too Honest
3. Too Simple
4. Too Complicated
5. Too much free time

The question I have for anyone, including Ian56 is: Suppose I had a solution to turn the Republic back into a Republic over night, a workable, easy, fool proof plan: would anyone listen?

I ran for congress.

I got on the ballot.

I've been running my own Forum since 2005.

I've been kicked off of The Fully Informed Jury Association Forum, The Austrian Economics Forum, the Prison Planet Forum, the Real News Forum.

I've submitted articles to "connected" news sources.

I run an online Presidential campaign.

I've started on-line petitions.

I've delivered petitions.

I've paid to go to an Austrian Economics Conference, where Ron Paul was a speaker, all my questions were ignored, despite a promise to answer the "hard" questions the next day.

I've paid to go to the latest Reno Nevada Liberty Conference, and I even paid to attend a "special" seminar, where the customers were rushed in, rushed out, and there was no two way communication.

My read on things is such that when people start looking of for answers there will then be a demand for answers, not before.

The closest I see anyone getting to the solutions that work are those few who are working to compete against the Legal Money Monopolies whereby the competition isn't to produce an ever worse fraud.

Ron Paul will do just fine if enough people (majority rules even if you don't like it) can see the problem and the answer to the problem in time, and then, having many people having that common goal, Ron Paul is rendered less significant, because so many people are on the same competitive side, and competition wins, with or without Ron Paul.

Legal Money Competition is, without a doubt, the fix to the most serous problem that people can fix; which is the Legal Money Fraud Non-Competition Problem.

This expense, this cost, on my part, finding connections to other people who may be seeking answers, is specific to another problem.

People are given a script at birth, know this, and stop reading from it.

Make up your own script.

You see someone else reading from the script, call them on it.

Hey you, that is a big lie, why are you aiding and abetting the worse evil mutations that our species has ever had the extreme misfortune of tolerating?

If you have to feed them, the Legal Criminals, out of pure, honest, charity, then please, please, please, don't feed them so much power that they have more power than everyone else.

I don't speak Falsehood, very few people listen, there isn't any money in it.

You tell me my next move, please.

I can consider adding it to my script, the one I write.


I understand your frustrations

At least I think i do.
U gotta think more of small wins and moving it along.
Rather than big ultimate solutions.
A series of small wins means a big win.
So pls take a look at the practical ideas of others and see what else could be done.
Because practicalities are what is needed for next 5 months.
And u have a fine brain to think of some.

Delegates, votes, strategy, presentation, activism, spread the word, boots on the ground, knocking on doors, get out the vote.
So many subjects, so many possible angles.
Pls give it some thought.

"In the end, more than they wanted freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all -- security, comfort, and freedom. When ... the freedom they wished for was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free."


I am in survival mode since my employer of 25 years forced me out by way of deceit. This is a long story. My capacity to produce at that labor intensive job fell off sharply when my body depreciated with age and disease.

A lot of turning points happened all at once a few years back, including the health loss, the job loss, and the loss of my father to cancer.

I remember the few days I had with my dad before he expired, and one thing he said in particular, concerning my being in a hurry.

He told me to slow down.

Here is how I took that advice:

Burning up personal power to help other people only goes as far as the power supply allows. Once the power supply is gone, the only way to help other people is to gain back enough power to survive, then it may be a good idea to find a way to store some of that power being earned.

So rather than rushing around doing things that require too much of my own power to accomplish, such as getting on the ballot in a National Election while working 70 hours a week, and raising a family, I performed what can be called an adjustment, or adaptation, to the new reality of older age, I am 54, whereby "doing the right thing" includes not getting in such a hurry.

I now have a Real Estate License.

I can now play the Guitar.

I now know my Children.

My wife is running the Real Estate Brokerage that was started with land I bought before marriage, and turning in the 401K "retirement" from the labor job (before being forced out, and incidentally: they could have just asked me to leave instead of creating all the lies they did in trying to trick me into leaving - I finally figured out they weren't just making mistakes, they were lying to me, so I packed up my tools and never looked back, they, not me, quit the contract by resorting to fraud).

Long story, sure, but the point here is that we all have our supplies of power, and doing the right thing with that power is a competitive enterprise, path A has to be judged relative to path B, constantly.

Right now my path is conversational as a means of sharpening human perspective, to compare perspective A with perspective B, and I can't compare without the effort required to find those competitive perspectives.

When this awakening that I perceive to be taking hold of our species, exponentially, grows there will be a demand for higher quality and lower cost perspectives so as to help people employ the limited power they have in the work that produces abundant power.

That is the opposite of this warning:

"Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one: for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries BY A GOVERNMENT, which we might expect in a country WITHOUT GOVERNMENT, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer."

Right now I have before me an e-mail from a new contact proposing an exchange of money for education.

I had spent my last bits of credit, just recently, on buying an on-line course on Writing. Guess what happened?

My writing projects were my typical honest language about subjects like The Revolution in Venezuela and how it resembled the American Revolution with less overt violence, and the English "Teacher" began criticizing the accuracy of the facts I presented in the writing, and upon my defense of those facts, and upon my request to teach me to write English well, instead of questioning the validity of my point of view, she, this teacher, that I was paying a market price for teaching, fired me. Sent me back the balance of my tuition minus the books already sent.

I've since gone back to the Libertarian Party, and that contact was first a negative response, then no reply.

I've tried the Constitution Party, no reply.

The connection between The People (read: victims) and the Law Apparatus (Legal Crime) is one way.

It is the One Way Money System, Monopoly, Legalized Extortion.

Know that, realize that, let other people know it, if they will listen, they will know it too, and when people decide to return to two way communication, through two way connections, there will be more demand for it, including a higher demand for competitive solutions.

How much credit (purchasing power) does someone need to purchase a seat as a Delegate?

Votes are rigged, the power of voting is illusory, and in that the power adds to the total power of deception. The Legal Criminals who are actively rigging the votes know better, the victims, so long as they continue to believe that voting is legitimate, remain victims because they don't know any better.


I have 2 working Strategies combined into one right now:

The Liberty Day Challenge 2012
combined with
Product 1 and Product 2 legal money instruments.

That is a logical, workable Strategy, whenever anyone starts looking for one, there it is.


My presentations usually get me thrown out of town, or off forums. I tried buying a better power to write, so as to help with my presentation. The teacher fired me and sent back some of my investment costs.


I write almost every day, my own Forum, other Forums, and a Liberty Day Challenge News Service. I don't push it. What would be the point? The Internet is currently an almost perfect example of a Free Market, two way communication is possible now between almost anyone and almost anyone else - voluntarily.

Where are the volunteers who volunteer to know better? They were much fewer 20 years ago, and their number is growing, and so are the sources of information that intend to help people know better, a very competitive market, who could ask for more?

Spread the word:

Which word?
1. Liberty Day Challenge 2012
2. Vote for Joe Kelley as the first on-line President Elect in the former Despotic Nation State U.S.A. Inc. (LLC)
3. Vote for Ron Paul a greater of two goods?

Boots on the ground:
My heavy lifting days are over, and my ankles were worn out, one was fixed, and it wasn't cheap.

Knocking on doors:
Have you done this yet? As a Libertarian Candidate there is a list given, and on that list are all the names of all the registered Libertarians, if you can fill such and such many pages with signatures, you get on the ballot - preaching to the choir.

Get out the vote?


Not long ago there was an effort, and I participated, in hand delivering to each sitting member of Congress Legal Petitions of Redress of Grievances. Those petitions were ignored. It is well past time to resort to the cartridge box as a means of holding the criminals to account in National Office, and even that is something I tried to join, or lead, just after Waco in 1992, started by Linda Thomson. If enough people had joined in that armed march on Washington then, the Nation might have been returned back to a working Republic by that show of armed force, without bloodshed.

It is well past that time now.

A new opportunity is on the near horizon involving the window of opportunity that will become open when the Legal Criminals cause The Dollar Collapse and after that unmistakable event, but before the establishment of a new World Reserve Currency, the window will be open for us to begin using Legal Competitive Currencies.

That will be the fix, with, or without Ron Paul's help.

Peaceful, non-violent, reasonable, understandable, workable, common sense application of the limited power we have toward earning for us more power sufficient to disconnect ourselves from the Legal Criminals while retaining our mutually beneficial connections that allow us to proposer to higher standard of living, and at a lower cost of living than any other society on the planet Earth.

That window of opportunity won't stay open long, and there may be a whole lot of decisions to be made by a whole lot of people who think that they are sitting on a moral fence wondering which side they must choose.

There is no fence.

Military people will have to choose.

Police people will have to choose.

Business people will have to choose, including all the business people whose store of wealth is in their labor.

There will be a choice to return to Liberty, or enforce absolute despotism as co-conspirators earning a pound of flesh taken off the shrinking supply of victims.

If enough people realize the facts soon enough, during that open window between The Dollar Hegemony, and the New World Reserve Currency, then the decisions made will be to opt out of The New World Reserve Currency with The Dollar Hegemony as a subsidiary, enforced at the end of a bayonet and a pack of lies.

The aggregate collective sum of all the decisions made, when that window opens, will be to opt out, which does not mean to back away, to run, to hide, to retreat, or to leave, the decision to opt out of Legal Crime (Legal Money Monopoly Extortion Racket) is to opt in to Liberty (Legal Money Competition) by going forward, inventing new money products, producing them, using them, and in so doing The Federal Reserve System, now a subsidiary of The World Bank, is rendered powerless, lower quality, and much too high in cost.



The idea of voluntary socialism falls in line with the cooperative business structure, a mechanism put in place to help fill in some of the deficiencies in free market systems.

If people would see the cooperative model as an option, rather than only socialism as the "solution" to monopolies, the world would be much better off.

2 Chron 7:13-14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

The "IF" in Law & Nature.

I like your signature, a Biblical reference beginning with an "IF". Some weeks back there was a page/ thread on DP with this verse. Today we see another related topic/ a DP feature by Tom Mullen = http://www.dailypaul.com/223135/god-is-a-non-interventionist

re- the Cooperatives, these could be of various kinds /types, e.g. open, known, registered, with declared objectives. The secretive gangs are very dangerous, - Cabal or Cartel, eg Feds, with hidden agenda.

"Voluntary" socialism is actually part of the free market system

Many of us belong to churches, or fraternal societies, or charitable organizations that could be described as practicing voluntary socialism.

One of my favorite questions to ask the big government socialists is, "If your solutions are so wonderful, why do we need to force people to participate?".



it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

The Two Sides are Monopolizing

In this Comment my intention is to define both sides of Socialism, but before doing that it may be important to illustrate the fraudulent conflict simply. The fraudulent conflict is not simple, it is complex beyond measure, and it is made complex beyond measure on purpose, and the purpose of making the fraudulent conflict complex beyond measure is the purpose of removing power from the victims so that the Legal Criminals are more powerful by that relative measure.

Human Interaction

A. Crime
Involuntary Human Interaction
1. Involuntary Socialism
2. Involuntary Capitalism

B. Liberty
Voluntary Human Interaction
1. Voluntary Capitalism
2. Voluntary Socialism

The fraudulent conflict is such that a person who is born into it will be handed a script where the new combatant is forced to obey the rule that they must be on one side or the other side, and once on one side, all is good, right, and moral on your side, and the other side is all bad, wrong, and immoral. There is no other choice, according to the fraudulent conflict, you must obey, there is no choice.

You can jump from one side to the other, but that isn't a choice, since both sides say the same thing.

Once on the right side, the other side is wrong.

That is the false script.

There are other choices, as the outline above intends to convey, whereby someone on one side may agree with someone on the other side, on one thought, or one act.

That one thought, and that one act, where a person on one side agrees with a person on the other side, is by that definition, as those people define that agreement, at that time, a voluntary association.

Someone on one side has the audacity to meet someone on the other side, meeting in the middle, and shaking hands, both being on the same side, the voluntary side, for that rare moment, in this fraudulent conflict that serves only those who profit from it.


Voluntary Socialism

I can find many thoughts followed by the act of communicating those thoughts whereby the communication intends to discredit all Socialism, not only the voluntary aspects of socialism, not only the involuntary aspects of socialism, but all of it, every last bit of it, so as to end it, and never let it appear in the minds of mankind ever again, to remove it from the face of the Earth, stomp it out, kill it, and never, ever, allow it back here again.

Those are harsh words.

Please recall the intent of this Topic and once I have finished this present work on Voluntary Socialism my intention is to move onto working with Voluntary Capitalism.

B. Liberty
Voluntary Human Interaction
1. Voluntary Capitalism
2. Voluntary Socialism

Where 1 can find voluntary agreement with 2.

That above is the focus, or intent, here. The idea is to dilute, diffuse, disarm, unravel, and compete with the Fraudulent Conflict.

Disarm this:

A. Crime
Involuntary Human Interaction
1. Involuntary Socialism
2. Involuntary Capitalism

Where 1 is in perpetual conflict with 2

Very few of the players on the right are allowed to question the total evil that is socialism. That cannot be questioned. Socialism is total evil, without question.

I can't argue with that, since the idea here is to find agreement.

Is there, for example, an agreement to be found in the observation that some good things, with good names, have had their good names besmirched, as evil people throw mud on that good name, and is it even possible to agree that good names have suffered such attacks long enough to a point where the good name is tarnished over time?

If that is agreeable, then is that process only applicable to our side, not to their side?

Capitalism, for example, has been under such a persistent attack by evil people as to render the good name of capitalism almost synonymous with torture and mass murder, according to large masses of people, on this planet, who don't know better.

Is it possible, at all, that Socialism has also undergone a similar attack of negative press over time?

I'm asking.

I am asking because this question has arisen in my personal studies. The answer, no matter who asks it, may be found in a book that I have yet to find.

The History of Socialism
Stephen Pearl Andrews

I would like to find that book.

There are two definitions of Socialism, from history, that I have found, and this Topic, and this Reply, on this Forum may communicate those 2 definitions right here.

The idea is to see if there ever was such a thing as Voluntary Socialism and if so, is there something about Voluntary Socialism that is compatible, and agreeable, with Voluntary Capitalism.

It is already well known, it seems to me, that there is one thing that is compatible with Involuntary Capitalism and Involuntary Socialism: both are Involuntary Associations.

The next link is the source of one definition of Socialism, and this is not mine, this is merely words written by someone else, words that I found, and words that are now offered in context of the goals already reported above.

The Science of Society

Socialism Defined (1848):

"What, then, if this be so, is this common element? In what great feature are Protestantism, Democracy, and Socialism identical? I will answer this interrogatory first, and demonstrate the answer afterward. Protestantism, Democracy, and Socialism are identical in the assertion of the Supremacy of the Individual,--a dogma essentially contumacious, revolutionary, and antagonistic to the basic principles of all the older institutions of society, which make the Individual subordinate and subject to the Church, to the State, and to Society respectively. Not only is this supremacy or SOVEREIGNTY OF THE INDIVIDUAL, a common element of all three of these great modern movements, but I will make the still more sweeping assertion that it is substantially the whole of those movements. It is not merely a feature, as I have just denominated it, but the living soul itself, the vital energy, the integral essence or being of them all."

The knee jerk reaction is to stomp out the message by stomping out the speaker.

The roots of socialism are not known by many, while current thoughts and actions by people today, calling themselves socialists, define the current meaning of the word Socialism.

Are there any people now calling themselves Socialists who share the concept of individual sovereignty with any people now calling themselves Capitalists?

Why not, if not?

Item 2:

The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness

In that book is a reference to another definition of Socialism and again the knee jerk reaction is to shoot the messenger so as to censor the message.

Please consider the concept instead.

From a footnote on page 377 in Chapter 12 MALIGNANT AGGRESSION: NECROPHILIA

"For Marx, capital and labor were not merely two economic categories, Capital for him was the manifestation of the past, of labor transformed and amassed into things; labor was the manifestation of life, of human energy applied to nature in the process of transforming it. The choice between capitalism and socialism (as he understood it) amounted to this: Who (what) was to rule over what (whom)? What is dead over what is alive, or what is alive over what is dead? (Cf. E. Fromm, 1963,1968)"

My thinking:

The choice between only A and B is not Liberty.

Liberty is the process of life when criminals no longer produce victims, or the ability for anyone to say no thanks to only A and B, Liberty is the ability to invent a third choice = C.

Liberty is not a choice between only A or B, rather, each individual person is able to respond to such dictates with choice C, D, E, F, G, or anything other than crime.

Whose definition of proper conduct overpowers a voluntary agreement and turns, twists, or spins a voluntary association into an involuntary association?

There are other things I can report on this paper trail, including an obvious division between the Voluntary Socialists like Andrews and Bakunin, to name just two, as Socialism, the very word Socialism, was rejected by the Communists. Socialism at the time still held a voluntary meaning, too much agreement to be of any good for the Communists at the time - in their own words.

That is it for me now, and my intention is to go back in time a little further to offer that middle ground, before moving ahead in time to modern capitalism.

There is, in fact, a middle ground, without doubt, it occurs whenever two people find agreement, where the agreement isn't a willful plan to exploit some hapless other victim.


reedr3v's picture

Voluntary is the key principle. Let a thousand

voluntary economic experiments bloom.

Before We Were Born.

Josf, thanks for opening this thread, very thoughtful. I hope it gains attention of more folks - who will contribute - and make this page richer.
you are right, many differing scripts are left in our paths, - these were composed before we were born, = pretext, before we read the real text, The Testament of Truth, that passes the tests of Time. +1