13 votes

The implication that you can't be Christian and Libertarian at the same time

I love Adam, but this is flat wrong. Some people like me realize they been worshiping the US like an idol complete with a totem pole (the flag) and all. I have redoubled my efforts toward worshiping God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit alone. I like the sentiment of trying to include everyone, but none of those atheists are going to join us. They are a bunch of control freaks many whom are the most bigoted people out there. They are like the Pharisees of the 2nd Temple Era by throwing their stones being holier than thou all the while 'reason and progress' ended up killing millions of Chinese and Russians, but lets not talk about that. Also, the commies in Russia killed off all the males in the Orthodox Church in their attempt to destroy the Russian Orthodox priesthood. Luckily, the ladies kept the faith.

Also, thanks for alienating Christians who would might be drawn to Paul. If I watched this before my conversion to liberty, I would of dismissed Paul as an option to be quite honest because Adam is a huge member of the movement. (The Liberty documentary helped push me toward Paul) This is not to peeve of atheists who are supporting Paul. This is coming from a Christian supporter of Paul. It would be akin to saying only Christians can be Ron Paul supporters or anarcho-capitalist/libertarians/supporters of liberty. Obviously, that is a logical fallacy.


Update: Someone said I came off too hard. Let me say that anyone who says I cannot practice my religion in public or prevents me from evangelizing is a control freak. This is what the organizers of the Reason Rally want. They want to put religion in a tiny box and tucked away where no one hears or discusses it. Those are the people I am talking about. If you are an atheist and a supporter of the first amendment, you are not in this group so do not be insulted.
Sorry if I sounded offensive.

Update 2:
I love my atheist liberty brothers. My best friend is an atheist supporter of Paul. Keep up the good work guys.

Update 3

"We all have our delusions"

(Update initially posted elsewhere I am sorry for this. I should of put it here)

An update to my earlier post about how Adam believes you cannot be Christian and libertarian at the same time. Also, someone said that Adam was using the 'Socratic Method' to make the Reason Rally people look bad. He was bashing the faithful this entire time! Imagine that. In the end, Adam was the only person who looks bad after all of this.

I follow a scam great. Don't donate to Adam because donating to a charity is a scam. I am sorry to see him go through this. Watch the video for more evidence, and I think someone owes me an apology.


I am officially a 2nd class liberty lover as I am a religious man. Let me go drown in my delusions.

Update 4:
Okay so the Adam gets into the gay marriage thing and how slavery is bad. Time for some education. Biblical slavery happened for two reasons. First, you were a prisoner of war. This happened because the aggressor (if the defender won) had to pay for all the collateral damage the war caused. Second you were in debt (we are all debt slaves currently under the Federal Reserve System btw). This is a legit way of getting rid of your debts is to sell yourself into servitude. I mean for being an 'anarcho-capitalist' or leaning like Kokesh (aka intellectually being a child and taking pot shots at ancient cultures and their arbitration systems) there are many contracts that you could perform to get rid of your debts and servitude is one of them. So, Adam has proven himself the intellectual equal of Rachel Maddow about LOL SLAVERY. (Think the Bob Murphy vid)

In the Old Testament, there were also laws dealing with the treatment of slaves (you could not work them if they were injured. Treat them as you would treat yourself, ext the comments are riddled with them). Adam of course ignores that and says Christians support racist slavery (slavery by birth rather than chosen servitude due to bad decisions you made). Debt slavery was never passed onto the next generation. Thomas Jefferson's quote about each generation has to pay its own debts did not come out of thin air. After this, I had to unsubscribe. I agree with Tom Woods about getting the State out of marriage. Let the Churches or whatever you subscribe to deal with it. I can't take much more of this. He came on here declaring I was trying to drive wedges. Well Adam, no you are. I know you read the DP. Idk what dope you have been smoking, but you are destroying yourself. Maybe if this eventually happens, it will be for the best, and that is unfortunate.

From a friend:

Kokesh is moron and a hypocrite. He'll talk about how you can't use the ecological fallacy on libertarians, then use it on Christians. I'm sure if you asked him he'd go all Nixon and be like "When I do it, it's not a fallacy!"


Update 5:
I really wish my last update was the LAST one. I am kind of getting tired of being called an idiot / irrational/ Santa Clause Worshiping/ Sun Worshiping / astrologer / pagan / divider / ext. Then when I tell the truth about Christian principles, I am the bad guy for dispelling internet myths of Christianity. Amazing! Well Adam is back at it again, this time he says in no uncertain terms Christianity is incompatible with Libertarianism. I was alerted by a friend while enjoying the Resurrection of our Lord with my family. Loving your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18) is definitely not the Non-Aggression Principle.

Note: I was accused for libel because of my post's title. I did not add the quotations (which is where the accusation stemmed from), but I simply wanted to see a debate about the issue and boy did I. Good thing Kokesh is now explicit about his loathing of Christians in the ideologically pure movement of the Revolution. We are a religion of empire after all even though we invented Just War doctrine, ext. (well it was always invented but merely penned articulately) Also, I am a Government plant or something.


Well guys, looks like I am packing up my bags. It was nice knowing you all. Some atheists who have commented (NOT ALL) here want me purged from the movement (well all Christians in general). We are simply not rational enough. For all those atheists who support religious liberties, I thank you. I know it is hard supporting us just as it would be hard for me to support you (peer pressure mostly), but we support each other on principle which is very important because once I go down you will go down very shortly. I realize that now when I made my conversion over to liberty that other points of view must be made open and have equal platforms to each other.

Time for me to travel to the tiny corner of dunce land (or idiot-topia idk which one to chose) where us religious people reside. Cya later.

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Define "Christian".

Let us be specific, let there be no assumptions. Why ? Because, many folks understand it differently.
What I learned is, that the followers of The Maseah -"are not proud, and there are monks among them, dedicated to learning + & +".

Other qualities include truthful, modest, charitable, servants in His Way, etc. There were many in and around JeruSalem, and later they spread out in many directions.

Now, about the word /anglish term "Christian", is it justified ??



Since this thread is already

Since this thread is already at the top, again, I am finally going to say it.

THIS IS THE MOST DIVISIVE THREAD ON THE DP TODAY. LET THE DAMN THING DIE ALREADY! There is nothing more irritating than coming on this site to find news about Ron Paul and seeing this crap. The constant conversations about religion and the divisiveness it brings is the reason I stayed away from the DP for years. I will not send anyone to this site because of this. If you want people to get on board with Ron Paul and to feel welcome at the DP, then you need to get off of your religious high horse and focus on Ron Paul. This kind of crap take up valuable space on the topic list which is better utilized planning for the elections.

Blessings )o(

No one benefits from this thread

Please let this thread die. If our energy isn't focused on creating a platform that draws every kind of American in and making the limited government movement a success, then our internal discussions will be of little value.

I'm not good at prioritizing, but this is one clear case where I can see that we need to.

+ Follow the Cooperative principle
+ Civility first
+ Constructive comments

wolfe's picture

It keeps dying...

And you keep bumping it.

Hypocrite. Either let it die, or not... But you can't do both and claim some sort of high ground.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -

I'm not the one bumping it

Someone else keeps pushing it to the top. I just made my comment when it was pushed. Look at the post timestamps.

+ Follow the Cooperative principle
+ Civility first
+ Constructive comments

Libertarians are Balanced by Love

Libertarian principles are what allow me to maximize my demonstration of the love of Christ. One cannot read the Ethics of Liberty without saying to himself - "Yes, Murray, that moral thing to which you refer is the Love of Christ." Love rather than force is what generates the desire in the heart of the libertarian to do things for others.

Well, that is what has worked for me for some forty years.

Christian Libertarian, and proud of both the noun and the adjective!

Not a Dimes Worth of Difference - Except Ron Paul

Adam, Jesus and Movement

Hey Guys I'm a vet a dad a Christian and i listen to AVTM's podcast almost daily ... I really admire what he's doing and even his rants on off topic stuff ... I am saving up for travel costs for the March on RNC ... I'm coming from California...
I really think we need to put this controversy on the back burner .. My relationship with God through Jesus Christ... is my personal belief. I don't share Adam's rendering of my beliefs but I will march with him and other vets be they be Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Material Naturalists/Atheist, Agnostics, Zoroastrian, what have you... for Freedom and a better world.
I think we all need to concentrate on the blessings of individual liberty for all us -- Atheists - Christians or otherwise...

Veteran -Dad -Artist

only the truest best scientists

... find god through simple objective analysis of reality. I am one such "scientist" ( a word whose meaning has been destroyed just as Orwell said they would ) and I can tell you unequivocally that god exists and is within humans on earth at birth. then a sort of game commences in which those beautiful baby humans are slowly degraded bit by bit into dis-connected soulless bots for one "ism" or another. The trendy thing is to ridicule religion nowadays, and that is part of a concerted long-term infiltration of religion by outside forces.


Tom Woods

I did ask Tom Woods what he thought about this during his last appearance on LibertyChat, but the video was taken down(presumably because of his comment on Jesse Benton he made in the same Q&A session).

His answer was that only belief required to be a libertarian, is belief in the Non-Aggression Principle, nothing more, nothing less. I'll try to find out if anyone else has a video of the most recent Liberty Chat Q&A.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com

"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

Tone aside, I agree with the sentiment, as would Dr. Woods

There seems to be some reticence to the tone of the original post. I'm not sure I agree with it or not, but I definitely agree with what I see as the key sentiment: Christianity and Libertarianism should not be protrayed as antogonistic forces. I think this is right on the money.

History is replete with evidence of what happens when Christianity sees (classical) liberalism as a threat.I've seen documentary footage of English marches with "Christian Socialism" as a banner. Some Catholic teachings believe the Christian state must tend to distribution. Dr. Thomas Woods - a Ron Paul supporter who wrote "Nullification", a book that looks at historical precedent to suggest nullifying ObamaCare and other unconstitutional laws (like the NDAA) - wrote a book on how the free market does not go against Catholicism.

In addition, the venerable F. A. Hayek wrote in The Fatal Conceit: The Errors of Socialism that religion often functioned as the "Guardian of Tradition", within which were institutions, customs, and norms that allow for an extended order of free people. He didn't deny some of those norms can be quite restrictive, but his point was that to become antagonistic toward religion as a whole, rather than merely maintaining a skepticism that allows one to question which norms might need incremental reworking, is to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

If you demolish that which guides many independent actors, those lost in the wilderness will turn elsewhere. Try to take out the head of God - which you cannot do - and all you will achieve is to make a false God of Socialism.

Look at Santorum's candidacy: Wears his religion on his sleeve, and votes to put more and more means of production at the whim of the state. Do you want to encourage Christians to go this way?

Jesus Christ threw a fit in the tax office. Lets join him!

I stopped

listening to Adam when I saw his facebook posts were profanity laden. I just watch the feeds from him until I see something coherent like he used to have in the past simply questioning others. I think he's getting a big head. He appears to claim to be a great independent media source but not impressed with him lately. Anyways, just saying...


Really; Really

Please, stop bumping this. If you want to have your fight, please do it via email.

Most of the people who have commented here want this stuff to end. It's divisive and there's a ton of misinformation being spread.

+ Follow the Cooperative principle
+ Civility first
+ Constructive comments

I agree with you on this!

Maybe I should have explained it like you did! I just said it was on here for 2 weeks and is getting old. Perhaps if I had said what you said, that it is divisive, more would have agreed! This WILL be the last time I go on this post. We need more unity here. If people cannot have civil conversations without bashing and name calling(of brothers & sisters in liberty) they shouldn't be commenting! So again, I say you are right, and no more bumps!!!!!!!!!!!!

Amen to that.

Oops, I just bumped this didn't I?

wolfe's picture

I probably hate this thread more than you do...

Read my initial comments on it before it went out of control.

I basically said, to summarize, no one will ever agree, live and let live. Live and let preach, so long as no force is applied, it is a part of what we are fighting for. And in this way, defended AK, and tried to explain why "offense" should not be taken.

I was then attacked from numerous sides for simply being an atheist and being willing to state to my beliefs.

However, what you fail to get by this comment and the thread you started is that the problem is so much deeper than the surface aspects of this thread.

The real problem is that EVEN in the RP group, their are many who see it as a threat/attack that other people hold different belief systems.

It is a common thread through all of human history.

If the people in this thread, on a Ron Paul site, cannot see the absurd hypocrisy of demanding the right to preach AND the "right" to be rid of other people preaching... Then well, things haven't come as far as I had hoped, and the whole revolution is a thin veneer, hiding the true nature of the mass underneath.

The true nature of the revolution is a lot of people pissed off for losing their freedom, but still more than ready to strip others of those same rights if given half a chance.

It is a sad thing to come to terms with, but what it means is that even if we are successful, we are doomed to statist failure in the end once the dust settles on the new "regime".

The Philosophy Of Liberty -

Responded here

I've addressed both of your recent posts.


+ Follow the Cooperative principle
+ Civility first
+ Constructive comments

wolfe's picture

Now, that didn't take very long, did it...

Christians can't even be tolerant of the views of other sects in their cult, let alone the rest of us.

As you can see below, the infighting between the Christians all telling each other they are going to hell has become worse than the attacks on atheists.

Why is it so important that you convince others that you are right about your religion? Don't answer that, I don't really care.

Just understand that it is fine for you to evangelize for your sect, cult, religion. But do not cry foul when another sect, cult, religion, or atheist does the same.

And for the love of ungod (roflmao), stop telling everyone they are going to hell... Hateful, hateful people.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -

It's not a christian thing.

It's not a christian thing. It's a human thing. We all have a natural tendency to be intolerant. Also, hell is the place where you are separated from God. If you choose you want nothing with God, you're just going to a place where you've chosen to be separated. It's not being hateful, it's a statement of fact based on the beliefs that are held. Furthermore, why be offended or make a judgement of hatefulness by the statement of something you don't even believe exists?


wolfe's picture

I never said it was Christian behavior...

But it is the behavior of *some* of the Christians in this thread. It has nothing to do with the religious beliefs. It has everything to do with their lack of tolerance, and their lack of understanding of the core principles held by libertarians.

My reference to hell as an insult was when it was directed at other Christians, which has been frequent in the infighting here.

However, the rest of the attacks have been leveled at atheists as well.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -

On Easter no less....

This is what you post on Easter? Talk about hateful.

wolfe's picture

Easter is a pagan solstice celebration...

Celebrating fertility and new life.

And you are one of the ones that can't seem to stop hating. You got tired of hating on us atheists, and now want to hate on your fellow Christians too...

The Philosophy Of Liberty -

Two things....

1) Easter is not a pagan holiday for believers, so, hatefully, you just can't leave that alone and need to criticize your brothers in liberty. Nice of you.

2) Jesus was the son of Joseph and Mary (though divine intervention, if you believe that). His existence and heritage is historical record, which is indisputable. I don't attack "fellow Christians", I attacked those who attempt to revise the historical record with the intention to deceive.

But I guess to you lying is fine.

Not indisputable historical record

Please stop making claims about things you aren't a student of (historical studies). The Jesus question is a very, very complicated one on which there is no consensus. (Yes, I'm familiar with Josephus, Pliny, etc. Probably moreso than you are.)

And please, for the sake of impressions about your beliefs, don't get into vitriol about your religion.

+ Follow the Cooperative principle
+ Civility first
+ Constructive comments

wolfe's picture


And what about my pagan brothers in liberty? How is it that you find the stating of information outside of your belief system "offensive". Really, look into that. I can understand if you disagree, but to be offended is extreme.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -

wolfe's picture


You seem to have gotten your history mixed up with your peanut butter... lol...

1) I simply provided the historical account of how Easter came to be a holiday. Would you rather run from knowledge?

2) Actually, no, there is no historical record of Jesus Christ's existence, which does seem rather odd considering there is no difficulty finding proof of Socrates, Plato and a hundred other historical figures. The closest was the reference from Josephus, who simply mentioned a "christ" figure.

There is no reference in any greek or roman texts about Jesus.

But believe what you want. I really don't care... My point is that YOU shouldn't care what other people believe TOO. Which has been my only statement from the beginning of this thread.

But you continue to behave like a hypocrite. Evangelizing, while denouncing Adam's right to say that reason and God are incompatible, as an attack, which it was not.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -

Adam's opinion doesn't make any sense though if

he's a Ron Paul supporter. Ron Paul believes in God, believes Jesus Christ is God, believes Jesus Christ rose from the grave, etc. Is Ron Paul in incompatible with reason? If, so, why would he support someone like him who is unreasonable and "delusional"?

As far as there being no historical records in Greek or Latin at the tiime of Jesus' life concerning Jesus...why would there be? There were no doubt thousands of people executed by crucifixion every year in Palestine and they didn't have YouTube or 24-hour news on television to document executions. Jesus' Earthly ministry was confined strictly to Jews in the region of Palestine, he wasn't an international figure, meaning if his followers didn't believe He actually did rise from the dead, most likely, nobody today would have ever even heard of Him.

wolfe's picture

See... you aren't getting it...

Why would I or Adam have to believe *everything* that Ron Paul believes in order to support him in those things we do agree on?

Yes, I believe that religion is irrational. Just as you probably have similar beliefs about atheism. So frickin' what? I have a RIGHT to state that, just as you do. And just because I believe that someone holds an irrational belief does NOT mean that I believe the person to be irrational.

If that were the case EVERYONE would be REQUIRED to believe everyone else insane.

If you believe it is ok for a preacher to get up and preach about how great god is, and how libertarian Christianity is, then you have NO RIGHT, ZIP, ZERO, to complain about an atheist doing the EXACT same thing.

In fact, if you respect the Christian for it, then you SHOULD respect the atheist for it even if you don't agree with everything he says. Much the same way that all the atheists here respect Ron Paul.

Do you hear any atheists getting pissed off when Ron Paul talks about the "Christian Just War" principle? Nope. We don't have to agree on it's source in order to agree that the principle is a good one. But on the flip side, the moment an atheist mentions a lack of belief, it doesn't matter what he says next, it get's labeled as an attack, and evil, etc etc. (By some, not all, but the fact that even one RP supporter can feel justified in it, is sad, because it means they aren't getting it).

The Philosophy Of Liberty -

The difference is that I don't believe a person is irrational

by being atheist. Faith is above reason. You can reason yourself in circles on every imaginable topic until the day you die, it still doesn't come into the realm of faith. It doesn't make any sense to support someone if you think that person is irrational. I wouldn't want an irrational president.

wolfe's picture

Is it ok in your faith?

To deliberately misrepresent someone? To ignore what they have to say and to put words in their mouths?

I have repeatedly said that a rational person can hold irrational beliefs. The fact that you think otherwise, is extremely judgemental but it is your right to believe that way. However, STOP trying to put those words in my mouth.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -