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Ron Paul's Election Will Hurt Libertarianism

I was watching Jacob Spinney's youtube channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/JacobSpinney?ob=0&feature=result...) last night and came across a video where he says the following:

Paraphrasing: I think Ron Paul's election might hurt the spread of libertarianism because the great depression 2.0 is going to hit during the next administration and if Ron Paul is president they will blame laissez faire and the free market. They won't listen to him when he states that he saw this all coming and that we have to let it play out. The only thing he'll be able to do is veto bills. Even if he introduces legislation, by the time it gets to his desk it will be so watered down and edited that he'll have to veto his own bill. He won't be able to stop the Federal Reserve, only the Congress can do that, and the FED will make the depression much worse and thus, make Paul look even worse.

It's a very interesting way of looking at things. Your thoughts?

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I agree...yet I don't...

How's that for commitment? Haha. I understand this perspective, especially when Stefan Molyneux explains it, however, in reply I say, "ok, when then?" I mean, things aren't going to get any peachier in the next four years with a bozo in the White House, so should we not try to elect a libertarian in 2016? Or 2020? If we wait for the ship to sink before offering a lifeboat there might not be anyone left to rescue. Regardless of who is in the driver's seat, they will be blamed for the woe of the masses- a Dem, a Repug, a libertarian. So what else is new? This cannot deter us. Plus, do we not believe things would start turning around within a four-year term if the philosophy we know is correct starts to be implemented? We need to do something NOW or there will be no future to worry about. Let the chips fall where they may. Some will blame libertarianism, some will praise it. That's how the game is played.

Ron Paul has been elected 12 times

Each time he helped Libertarianism. The man is single highhandedly doubled the size of if not exponentially grown libertarianism....

What Bullshit

Only Ron Paul can and will stop the trillions of dollars being wasted overseas on mass-murder and foreign bribery.

No one else will do this.

The only way to avoid a major depression is to elect Ron Paul.

Even IF that's true

at least maybe we'll be able to get rid of crap agencies like the TSA.

Likely the case

its like Bill Clinton policies that hit Bush and Bush got the hate and blame for it, when he didn't do it. Although Bush wasn't good at all. If that is the case abandon this effort and focus on either Rand Paul or Gary Johnson to advance the cause in 2016 or 2020 and the focus should be on congressional and senate elections than the presidency.


Bush inherited a budget surplus when he was (s)elected President by the corrupt Supreme Court, (something now unthinkable) and immediately Bankrupt the Country with tax cuts going to the wealthy, and endless Warfare and mass-murder.

Bush has no one to blame but himself.

Yeah but

I am talking about the policies that lead to the financial crash we had and it didn't have anything to do with Bush's policies as it did with Clinton and Carter. I am referring to regulations that made banks give out loans to people who couldn't afford them which resulted in mass amounts of money being lost which resulted in economic turmoil.

Bush increased the debt and made people hate us but his policies didn't result in the crash we had.

I've thought of that very issue........

I forget specifically when Madison or Jefferson, might have been Jackson lol, threatened to not renew the charter of the Central Bank at that time, the head of the bank I believe (Robert Morris) threatened if that were to happen the Central bankers would contract the money supply sharply and not issue any new credit until the charter was renewed. They could do something similiar, I've thought of this very thing many times. But the response of the other DPers is exactly right. That is no excuse not to try our best, if we wait till everything is "fixed" before we try, then no one will care anymore because everything is hunky doorey now. We can't take that attitude. We have to fight RIGHT NOW!


this is like saying you shouldn't move out and develop your career cus you will piss off your parents who have other ideas for you

gotta do what you gotta do.. need to grow up at some point

so we should just all sit idly by because some nanny media is going to point finger at us? is he serious? i hope he isn't still living in mother's basement

And another thing...

...this idea that we should stay out of politics so that we don't get blamed for the impending disaster has been the refrain of the do-nothing faction within libertarianism for many years. Stefan Molyneux comes to mind. If those people had gotten their way, there would be no Ron Paul, no re3volution, no chance at really changing anything. There'd just be a bunch of self-important douches making mentally masturbatory you-tube videos to no end.

Screw them, our success thus far is proof of how incredibly wrong they've always been.

"Alas! I believe in the virtue of birds. And it only takes a feather for me to die laughing."

There are some people who

There are some people who believe in liberty in theory, but (perhaps held back by a residual fear of the unknown, or as a result of living many years in our current system) they are still not ready to see real changes applied to real life. They beileve in liberty intellectually, in theory, but not with their whole heart and mind. It isn't enough to just imagine liberty, we have to really live it in the here and now.

Ahaha, you're analysis of

Ahaha, you're analysis of Molyneux is spot on. Isn't it amazing how people so smart and knowledgeable like Molyneux and Spinney, while helping our movement so much, can also be berated from the very group they helped educate?

I have always thought

that Ron Paul gives libertarianism a good name. He has already done more for the cause of libertarians than the Libertarian Party has done in its entire existence. By nominating Bob Barr last election cycle in fact they pretty much destroyed their credibility. If anyone has diminished the influence of libertarian philosophy it is the Libertarian Party.

What many people do not appreciate is just how effective Dr. Paul will be as President. The power of the Presidential veto and the Constitutional responsibility given to the President to enforce ONLY Constitutional laws and regulations means that he can effectively repeal all the non-Constitutional laws on the Federal Register in his first year.

I have read many articles in which the writer opines that President Paul will not be able to advance his agenda due to opposition from the Congress. Once again i will say that they do not understand the power of the Presidential veto or the Constitution. With the relaxation of the regulatory grip the Federal government has on the American economy there will be an immediate unleashing of the tremendous power of the American people to create their own prosperity without government interference.

In addition to this he is the Commander in Chief of the armed forces and will be able to immediately end the wars and recall all the military from overseas bases. The economic effect of this will be dramatic and increase the optimism of the American people.

On the monetary front he will introduce competing currencies and open the Mint to gold and silver. He will immediately conduct a full audit of the Fed and put an end to their destruction of the American currency. This will return America to the forefront of the world economy and global trading. His tax policies will serve to augment this movement.

Finally he will be able as President to continue and expand his personal addresses in order to teach the people the meaning of libertarian philosophy. He will be able to balance the budget in three years and this will return the markets to un-manipulated confidence with corporations able to pay down debt with new equity and deal in sound money if they so wish.

This is just off the top of my head but I am VERY confident that a Ron Paul Presidency will avoid the worst of any crash and set the stage for a rapid recovery.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

People, even some

People, even some libertarians, think he wouldn't be able to advance his agenda because we are so used to the two parties trying to advance big unconstitutional agendas.. We can't compare the way Obama has had obstruction in getting anything "done" to the way Dr. Paul would work. All Ron has to do is follow the constitution and veto, and keep telling them no...and things will already immediately start to improve. So far we know he is pretty good at saying "no".

Good points but I don't think

Good points but I don't think even superman can avoid the coming crash. By cutting the overseas spending and the other things you mentioned RP will indeed give us the best shot at a speedy recovery possible but don't underestimate the vast amount of dollars that will be dumped upon us when the world looses confidence in our currency. We've been digging this hole for decades, getting out of it is going to hurt a lot and it's going to take awhile - even if we controlled every branch of govt.

Read my last sentence.

The world is headed for a collapse of CREDIT but if Ron Paul is able to end the wars, audit the Fed, introduce competing currencies, open the Mint to gold and silver and get rid of all the useless regulations then the crash will mostly affect those large corporations whose business in any event is international and who are locked into the elastic money machine. The strength of the US dollar is relative to every other fiat currency and they are all under pressure.

The first country to begin officially using gold and silver as money will have an advantage and this will be reflected in the currency markets. Dr. Paul has never indicated any interest in saving the world so I do not expect that global stability will be his first priority. Yes there will be a CREDIT collapse but it remains to be seen what effect that will have on those companies who are not overstretched on debt.

This will result in some very large bankruptcies of big banks and corporations but I believe their assets will be very quickly absorbed by those smaller companies who have maintained solid balance sheets. Do not forget that most economists are Keynesian and focus on the macro picture while Dr. Paul and his associates are Austrians and are more concerned with the micro context.

It is this focus that is needed in the coming years as the entire Keynesian mumbo jumbo comes crashing down and is replaced with the more sane Austrian economics. If Dr. Paul is President he will be introducing Austrian reforms that will be very effective in restoring the American economy to health after the necessary purging of the debt laden elements.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

Regardless of how debt free

Regardless of how debt free an entity is, if it is using the USD then it will get hurt. The correct prescription is competing currencies AND sound business practices (not being overstretched on debt).

PS- I might have to agree with Spinney here - there is only so much RP can do and reigning in the FED and creating competing currencies are going to be very tough. Most presidents get one major thing done per term, since RP is the man, he'll probably get two or three: Ending the wars/bringing the troops home, restoring some civil liberties/ending the TSA, and balancing the budget.

This is the future.

This article at Goldmoney.com spells out the thinking that would prevail if Ron Paul were elected President:


Here is a relevant excerpt:

China is increasingly keen to provide her own currency for trade settlement purposes. She sees the dollar-monopoly as an important security threat, which is why she has in the past sought alternatives. She is now cautiously promoting her own currency for this role and is developing an offshore renminbi capital market in Hong Kong. At the same time she is evolving from manufacturing consumer goods towards capital goods, for which Hong Kong is the natural financing centre.

"Her targeted growth-markets are other rapidly developing economies, as well as the whole Asian continent, and no longer the US and Europe. One of her key strategies through the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation is to build a pan-Asian security and trade bloc in partnership with Russia, and the last element of this 10-year old plan is to settle cross-border trade without using the West’s financial system. China expects to play a major part with her currency, which explains why she is adding to her gold reserves.

The relevance of gold is that China will have to show to the people of Asia that her currency has better long-term prospects than the dollar, which goes some way to explaining why so many of the countries associated with the SCO are now also accumulating the metal. This analysis is confirmed by a leaked cable from the US Embassy in Beijing as long ago as April 2009 that can be seen in GATA’s database. As Iran and India also have SCO Observer status they are part of China’s grand strategy, and they have also been buying gold."

This is in line with the position I was advancing that by cutting spending and balancing the budget, by opening the Mint to gold and silver and introducing competing currencies the USD could be strengthened. By the time Dr. Paul takes office in 2013 the situation should have deteriorated to the point where his solutions would be embraced by a Congress at a loss over what to do. Certainly his solutions are preferable to those of the PNAC who want to destroy the world in order to recreate it in their own image.

There is no doubt that the situation is perilous for the FRN dollar system but a gold or silver dollar would not be under similar pressure. The tricky part would be the transition and that can be left to the market to sort out. The less the government is involved in that the better and quicker it will be. I am simply more sanguine about it than you appear to be.

No one has a real clear idea of what will happen but my own sense of it is that Dr. Paul will be able to accomplish a lot more than his critics give him credit for. Since we shall be entering a completely new paradigm the potential for rapid change is excellent.

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

He misses the part where

He misses the part where capitalism, free market, and "deregulation" is already being blamed. So the alternative is to do what? Elect another establishment candidate who will keep the lie going and declare this a failure of capitalism and move to centralize government even more? That's what happened the first time... We can't afford to step aside and keep losing this argument. Every time we do, it gets worse.

What's crazy is he knows

What's crazy is he knows that! He has an entire video about how we've never had capitalism and how it is being framed right now and yet, he totally misses that point on this discussion. Glad you pointed that out.

"The Free Market Was Framed"


We are still living in the

We are still living in the progressive era, which was ushered in following the first depression. Another great depression, with progressives in charge, could be the final nail in the coffin for a long time to come. Ron Paul might be personally hated, at first...and maybe for a long time, but the ideas will win over the long term. Remember Rand's CPAC speech where he said we need somebody who knows how to blend the cold reality of austerity with the warmth of prosperity.. better it happens under somebody like Ron than under someone who would take the opportunity to cease more power.

Bah, nonsense.


"Alas! I believe in the virtue of birds. And it only takes a feather for me to die laughing."

Idiot level analysis.

Oh,we should deliberately lose so we won't get the blame for what happens. Nonsense, losers are NEVER vindicated because those who hold the power will ALWAYS find some way to either blame the loser or take credit for the disaster they caused. Look at how many liars blame World War II on "isolationism" and the "America First" movement, when it was interventionists Roosevelt and Churchill who maneuvered the Axis into war and appeased Stalin afterward.

I don't think he's saying we

I don't think he's saying we should lose deliberately, he's just scared about the potential for blowback - he himself even says he would vote for RP if he makes it to the general election ballot. This discussion is meant to be an exchange of ideas - considering an overlooked topic that deserves some inspection. - Have you seen any of Jacob's videos? Watch em and then come back and say an idiot made them, the guy is an ally in our movement, not an enemy.

He's a Great Teacher

My hope is that he will address the People in old-fashioned fireside chats, and because he's a de-centralizer, he'll let others teach, also.

The media will be playing catch-up, and profiling him, and his family. Those who truly respect him for his principles, in Congress and elsewhere, will have no reason to keep that secret anymore, and every reason to climb on board to support him.

Further, all the resources in all the big corporations that are now being spent on trying to manipulate the government, will study the situation to see which side their bread is buttered on. They will begin to realize that he is supporting things that would be good for them, such as deregulation.

Plus, we, the Revolution, will still be here, spreading the word on why liberty works.

Ron Paul is really good at reducing fear, and calming people down (must be all those baby deliveries). I can't imagine anyone else who'd do that better. Yes, there's a risk he'll take the blame, but we know that's what he's willing to do, even voting 435 to one.

What do you think? http://consequeries.com/

Another thought that I had

Another thought that I had while watching Jacob's video was: "Ron Paul knows all this. He's definitely thought of this before and obviously thinks that his election will be for the better. He has predicted the economic troubles thus far and is predicting the very collapse that Jacob fears will ruin his legacy and deal a blow to liberty. I'm betting that the good Dr. has his next move figured out as well."

Wow, the same Libertarian Party that chose NEO-CON Bob Barr?

Seems that they don't need my help in screwing things up for themselves.

Maybe Dick Cheney can be their nominee next time around.


I don't think he's talking

I don't think he's talking about the Libertarian Party, rather the Libertarian/Liberty movement and spread of ideas.

2 wrongs don't make a right

2 wrongs don't make a right, so I'm forgetting the 2 wrongs and just going with what's right.

Ron! Paul! 2012!

"What if the American people learn the truth" - Ron Paul

I'll take my chances.

I'll take my chances.