-4 votes

Old Glory, RIP


Twenty-four years ago, in Texas v. Johnson, the court held that the 1st Amendment prohibits state statutes banning flag burning. /1/ In so ruling the court struck down the flag desecration statutes of 48 states and the United States; and reversed the conviction of a sub-human called Johnson. While Johnson burned the flag, his fellow protestors chanted, “Red, White, and Blue, we spit on you!” According to the court, that was “political expression” protected by the 1st Amendment, which (so the court, following a prior case, silently assumed) applies as against states through the due process clause of the 14th—even though due process applies only to judicial proceedings and never, said Alexander Hamilton, to acts of state legislatures.

For the rest of the article, please seehttp://douglassbartley.wordpress.com/2012/03/30/old-glory-r-i-p/

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The major misconception in the comments here

All the misconceptions in the comments about the supposed “freedom to burn flags” stem from one great misunderstanding about the 1st Amendment (and the other nine amendments in the Bill of Rights): Despite what the Supreme Court has said in the so-called incorporation cases, in our federal system, the Bill of Rights doesn’t apply to state laws, such as the Texas flag desecration statue in Texas v. Johnson. The Bill of Rights is a limitation only on the federal government and does not permit federal interference with state criminal or civil legislation.

Put another way, the federal government and the supreme court has no power to set aside state laws which actually conflict or seem to conflict with the Bill of Rights. And for the federal government to interfere with those laws violates the 10th Amendment reservation of state powers.
And matters such as flag burning turn on state constitutional law.

For a full discussion on the matter, please go to The 14th Amendment “Incorporation Cases” Violate the 10th and are Unconstitutional @ http://douglassbartley.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/the-14th-ame....

In short, libertarians ought be constitutionalists and not political theorists. And they ought to recognize the supremacy of the Constitution itself, even when it pinches.

Burn flags all day, I don't care!

We can have a Fourth of July flag burning backyard BBQ at my house, where we celebrate the freedom we have as Americans to burn it!

When you buy that piece of cloth, it is your property and you can do whatever you want with it.

All these laws against flag burning are counter productive to liberty, they are about prosecuting a thought crime.

"How dare you dislike America, we'll teach you a lesson, here's a fine!"

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com

"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

Santorum would be appalled.

Santorum would be appalled.

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"Fully half the quotations found on the internet are either mis-attributed, or outright fabrications." - Abraham Lincoln

Rick should be excited!

Wisconsin just ruled that he can spread his Santorum all over the flag!

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com

"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

So maybe we can go back to using our original American flags...


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I don't think anybody here

I don't think anybody here would agree with this article. Flag burning can be despicable, but if you own that flag, then you have a right to be despicable. And people have a right to think you are a jerk.

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To Those who want to ban the flag burning,

perhaps you should shift the focus to banning ANY destruction of ANY copy of the Constitution.

See how far you'll go.

It's frankly as unenforceable as the flagburning.

Does the flagburn ban include printed copies, too?

This is some emotive liberal nonsense. I swear for all the RINO's maligning of liberals as 'pussies,' the only difference between the two are what they want to be politically correct about.

Seriously, what braindead moron goes around reciting a 2 yr old's kindergarten jingle like "I support the troops" as to not be seen as being "unPatriotic." Or the mere fact that the same a-holes that malign Ron for his foreign policy, literally have the nerve to do that BEFORE his own son Rand is interviewed on the same show, as Hugh Hewitt did, and with same breath PRAISE Rand's proposed foreign policy description, JUST BECAUSE he worded it differently?

The RINO moron Eric Erikson ridicules Ron for his foreign policy stance, yet has the nerve to call Rand "a friend" for having the SAME policy, except for the rhetorical delivery on it.

Who's the real prissy, emotional moron here? The liberals or the RINOs? Ach, same difference.

How limited do y'all believe the size of our govt would be if the punishment for violating one's Oath throughout the nation, from local, state, to Federal, is the same as the lawful punishment for violating the Coinage Act of 1792?

Frankly if there were ANY amendment I would accept, it'd be that, as a piece of paper is only as good as the people upholding it, and we have 99% in govt at all levels in full violation of it.

And I'd extend the statutes of limitations to 6yrs beyond the formal retirement or employment termination date of any govt worker. Just to keep them in check from doing the 'revolving door' corporatism.

Frankly, it might be the only way to keep the public servants, actually acting like and being like, an actual SERVANT.

Predictions in due Time...

"Let it not be said that no one cared, that no one objected once it's realized that our liberties and wealth are in jeopardy." - Dr. Ronald Ernest Paul

Patriotism is the last refuge

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. (Samuel Johnson)

There is nothing noble about being loyal to a government simply because it is the one that rules you. The Declaration of Independence makes that case very eloquently. Be loyal to the cause of Liberty, and it will all sort itself out.

The liberty to burn a flag is a small one, but people get agitated over it. It is purely symbolic. For that reason, such demonstrations of no-confidence, which harm no one, will be among the last liberties to be curtailed. Perhaps the first robin of the secular spring will be the legalization of flag-burning in China.

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"Fully half the quotations found on the internet are either mis-attributed, or outright fabrications." - Abraham Lincoln

I don't like flag burning

But it IS a freedom of expression protected by the First Amendment. It should be legal.

“It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till." -J.R.R. Tolkien

Santorum would agree

Santorum would agree wholeheartedly. Got a match?

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"Fully half the quotations found on the internet are either mis-attributed, or outright fabrications." - Abraham Lincoln

Burning a flag

is indeed protected by 1st Ammendment. You may be commiting an act...but it is an act of expression, the same as burning books or art.

We look at these things as harmful (which in the majority of cases, like this one, they are), but they still acts of expression, whether of hate or not.

The 1st Ammendment protects our right to express this hate and even though it's disgraceful, you can't punish someone for hating you.

How do you dispose of a flag that is unservicable?


Boy Scouts Flag Burning Retirement Ceremony

As for the comments said by Johnson and others who disrespect the symbol of our country:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Tyrannical governments censor their people.
Liberty is involves tolerance.

"Always vote your principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." -John Quincy Adams.

I say first

wipe your butt with it. Then mutilate it. Then stomp on it. Then burn it. The same with all idols and false gods as far as I'm concerned.

"3Thou shalt have no other

"3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

Exodus 20:3-5

I always figured

saying the pledge was just patriotic. The pledge itself says the nation is UNDER God not ABOVE God or simply the god. Not picking an argument. Just seeing where folks are coming from. I have only been awake for about a year and only found Ron Paul recently.

The pledge has an intersting

The pledge has an intersting history. It was written by two socialist brothers who wanted to inculcate loyalty to the state: http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/26414.html


All that aside I'm coming from a traditional conservative background and am a recent graduate of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary which is one of the most republican institutions in the country. I went to church and seminary with many people who have let their patriotism become idol worship imo. Loyalty to the constitution is laudable, loyalty to your family and people are too I think but loyalty to a flag often gets conflated with loyalty to a government. I think we too easily forget the American people and the American government are not the same thing.

Next Question...

Thank you for the info on the pledge. I have checked it out. Next question, then, what about the flag? It predates the pledge and was a part of the founding of our country.

Its what you make of it I

Its what you make of it I guess. Sociologists call flags sacred symbols. All cultures have sacred symbols. If you just respect it as a symbol of America, the ideals upon which this country was founded and so forth, and probably most people do, then I see nothing wrong with that.

Of course anything can go too far. I personally don't like flags in the church. It sends a conflicting signal and the church in America is already waaay too confused about the difference between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of this world and the USA is in the realm of the world.

I don't have a problem with anybody saluting it and I don't have a problem with anybody burning it. I think the libertarian non-aggression principle would apply here.


for your time. I am still coming up to speed on some of the concepts. I am thinking part of what has historically happened is that the pledge was used to make us nationalistic then removed from schools to polarize us. Perhaps like the peace movements in the 60s caused patriotic people not to speak out against war because then one would be seen as not patriotic. (i.e., It took me hearing Dr. Paul to understand what we have been doing in the middle east is wrong.)

I think there is a splitting of the ideology that is part of what is being used to divide and conquer our nation?

To make us nationalistic is a

To make us nationalistic is a very good description imo! That's exactly what its for. If you are new to the Ron Paul revolution and/or to libertarianism in general these are a few good sites to get familiar with libertarian thought:




Thnx for the links :)

Thnx for the links :)


Its "Ol' Glory", like the "Grand Ol' Party". There is nothing old about "Ol' Glory", except those who want to usher in a new age, a new order.

So, what do you reckon is

So, what do you reckon is under that there apostrophe?

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I disagree

Old Glory RIP will be the day when the govt CAN ban you from doing whatever you want to do with your private property (while you're not endangering anyone of course). There is a saying that the reason you shouldn't burn the flag is exactly because you can. But if you really feel compelled to burn a flag (or Qur'ans as that preacher from Jacksonville tried, or any other religious or national symbols for that matter, no matter how distasteful that might be), and this is a flag you own you burn it in a controlled manner on your own property or on someone else's with their permission, then there is nothing that the govt should be able to do about it.

I don't like flag burning but

I don't like flag burning but I don't think anyone should go to jail for burning a flag.