8 votes

Libya ...hell breaking loose?

I recently read an article that the south is rebelling and 70 persons perished in the fighting over 3 days this past week.

Anyone else hear or read anything?

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Libyan Rebels attack in Tripoli

Surround interim government buildings with anti-aircraft cannons mounted on trucks.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianoce...

donvino

International Reality

The Germans refer to it as "Realpolitik":

"Realpolitik refers to politics or diplomacy based primarily on power and on practical and material factors and considerations, rather than ideological notions or moralistic or ethical premises."

It is not about doing what is "right" which is a morally ambiguous judgement. It is about using whatever means is necessary to attain the desired results that benefit your "tribe".

That includes: espionage, influence ($), coercion, agreements, threats, force & war. Short story - there are no rules.

"One resists the invasion of armies; one does not resist the invasion of ideas" Victor Hugo

You may find Eric Margolis insightful

http://ericmargolis.com/

and this podcast with Lew Rockwell is informative:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/lewrockwell-show/

"The problem is not those in power, the problem is right between your ears." ~Larken Rose

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5FNDRgPOLs&list=FL4wdZ0dK3HG...

There's probably more here than you want to know

http://libyasos.blogspot.com/p/news.html?

It's a slow loading site.

what are you talking about?

Flying Dutchman - you arent actually giving a contrary argument - just insinuation

-please be specific - what is the case against Gaddafi - clearly NATA USA UN have killed and devastated the lives of many in in Libya

- Tell me what terrible things is Gaddafi supposed to have done - i want to know

Flying Dutchman...

Who really cares what other countries do as long as they are not threat to us? Look under your own nose before criticizing others. Your constitution, the rule of the land, has been decimated by Bush and Obama - since Bush and Obama you no longer have any rights and apparently nor do the Libyans.

Preparation through education is less costly than learning through tragedy

It's time...

... To stop caring about distant countries and start caring about our own. I will not be distracted by this noise. Better still to care about the people in your own neighborhood, family and friends.

________________________________________

Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. ~Thomas Paine

I agree but...

This kind of info only goes to further prove RP is right on foriegn policy.

....and FP is directly tied to the economy and our well-being

But the neo-cons don't want us to make the connection. Everything is connected.

So interventionist foreign policy spending > drains our economy > which drains the 50 states > which bankrupts municipalities > and eventually damages each of our communities economically & physically (since soldiers come from our communities). We need to advocate for strong States and a weak Fed.

"Society has arisen out of the works of peace; the essence of society is peacemaking." "Economically considered, war and revolution are always bad business."

Ludwig von Mises, Austrian Economist.

"One resists the invasion of armies; one does not resist the invasion of ideas" Victor Hugo

Hah! There's some final failure of Neoliberalism for you....

Neoliberalism has finally exposed itself as a complete sham.

Its garbage, all of it. Liberal, nanny state CRAP!!!

The Democratic party belongs in the same dustbin.
If they want to go down to the very graves of bankruptcy with Israel and Egypt, they are WELCOME to it!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tYk5mEli68

Republicans will have *NONE* of it.
Its time to support entangling alliances with NONE, respect sovereign rights of all as has always been our platform!

Democratic Party is a joke and all their foreign intervention wars, will go up in so much smoke, most voters won't ever want to hear about the great Gov hero FDR at all..

President Paul, President Paul

.

Re-Colonization

The regime-change effort in Libya was the first full-blown project of the United States Africa Command (Africom) which was formed in 2008. Africom, although officially based in Stuttgart, Germany, has established a base at Camp Lemonier in the Horn of Africa nation of Djibouti. Africom is now operating in several states on the continent.

Add-in the efforts of the traditional players as well, particularly Italy. Libya used to be "Italian East Africa".

The Italian and Libyan economies were closely linked (more now). “Italy’s trading ties with Libya make it the most exposed European Union country to any collapse in Qaddafi’s regime,” Bloomberg reported. The news agency added:

Italy bought 49 percent of Libya’s exports to the 27-nation E.U. in 2009 and was responsible for 39 percent of the bloc’s sales to the North African country, according to Eurostat, the E.U.’s Luxembourg-based statistics office. Germany bought 14 percent of Libyan exports.

Italy’s ties with Libya, which it occupied from 1911 to 1943, have strengthened under Prime Minister Berlusconi. In 2008, it forged a treaty that paved the way for 25 billion euros ($34 billion) in Eni SpA oil projects in Libya. Investment links also go the other way, with Libyan stakes in UniCredit SpA, Italy’s biggest bank, totaling 7.6 percent. ( source: NYTimes: http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/latest-updates-o... ).

Now... to understand more you have to bring in China.

About 75 Chinese companies operated in Libya before the war, involving about 36,000 staff and 50 projects, according to early Chinese media reports. Many of those firms were engaged in building roads, buildings and infrastructure.

Yet Gaddafi's government was wary of China's economic reach, and Beijing also will face a harder time than Western governments in winning the ears of a government emerging from the rebellion, said Simpfendorfer, the consultant.

China's top three state oil firms CNPC, Sinopec Group and CNOOC all had engineering projects in Libya, but no oil production yet, company officials said. (Source: Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/23/us-china-libya-oil... )

The KEY: CHINA HAD NO OIL PRODUCTION YET. And The Italians (Eni SpA oil), French (TOTAL Oil) & British (British Petroleum) were going to make certain of it.

The race is on for Libya's oil by the Europeans: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/01/libya-oil

And guess what.. The Chinese have been shut out: http://www.china.org.cn/opinion/2012-02/14/content_24632473.htm

Last item - Libyan Gold. They had about 150 tonnes / 6bn USD of it. A greater reserve per capita than the UK. With Oil & Gold Libya could keep a strong currency without bending over to the USD or Euro. What does that mean? They had the power to influence and counter.

Where is that gold now? Have you noticed the price of gold declining? That happens when you dump a large supply on the market. Libyan gold was used to prop up a collapsing Italy. (remember the Italian connection?) http://silverdoctors.blogspot.com/2011/12/jim-willie-negativ...

By now, the motivations for the takeover of Libya should be crystal clear. Libya will be kept destabilized and weak.

"One resists the invasion of armies; one does not resist the invasion of ideas" Victor Hugo

Libya

...has to be one of the saddest cases of deliberate misinformation perpetrated by the Western media. This amazing country had a literacy rate of 97.7%, had the worlds longest man made river to bring water and prosperity to it farmers. All of Libya's people received a cut of the countries oil wealth, and was a stable thriving country until the world largest, most sophisticatedly armed terrorist organisation, the UN, decided to steal her wealth.
The carpet bombing of the Libian peoples, and the sanctioned murder of her leader is a truly terrible crime.

+ they wanted to implement a gold backed african currency

..thats why the FED attacked them.
Then they took Lybias Gold to down the gold prices worldwide.

Tough, Ghadafi himself had obviously blood of innocents on his hands.

Gadaffi was cleared of the claims of the killings

by numerous of independent agencies. The cause of death of almost all those people were falling bullets from theirt own celebratory gunfire. "What goes up, must come down", we learned that in gun safety class.

an you handle the TRUTH about Libya & the UN bombing?

It's actually Obama who has blood of innocents on his hands

What You DON'T Know about Gaddafi!!!!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw8p3SiOZXA&feature=related

Why Gadhafi must die!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCnFBqVwhw8&feature=related

Can you handle the TRUTH about Libya & the UN bombing?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUNzINzZnjc&feature=related

Media Lies about Khaddafy and Libya: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waGsZoUkF0w&feature=related

Obama Lies About Libya...The Shocking Truth Behind The Façade: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Aup7tdCjQ8&feature=related

You are not seriously

You are not seriously defending Muammar Gadaffi, are you?

Are you Libyan, or just on youtube?

Lying Dutchman

You damn well should read up on what Gaddafi did in Libya. Yes we can and should defend him - he was the ruler of that country, ruled it without looting it's economy, added important infrastructure, had a solid gold and oil backed economy, developed one of the largest irrigation systems ever built, had free health-care and free schooling. He never put up with dissent and was, up until recently, an ally of the US.

Get your facts straight.

Preparation through education is less costly than learning through tragedy

He was a socialist

He was a socialist revolutionary that came to power trough a military coup. Get YOUR facts straight. What site are YOU on?

wool over your eyes

watch and learn about the facts first.

Been there, done that.. FYI,

Been there, done that.. FYI, if you're in a desert, like Libya. Wool over your eyes helps to keep the sand out of it. Still leaves my original question: You are not seriously defending Muammar Gadaffi, are you? Seriously?

Ever been to Libya? Spoke to a Libyan? Someone remotely from that region even? Are you familiar with tribal issues in the region, like with the touaregs? The history between Libya and Mali, the African refugee situation and the deals/threats made to France/Italy in regards to that. The prison massacres? How and why Blair brought him back in the international fold? The history between Tripolitana, Cyrenaica and the Italian colonists? And that's just a tip of the icebergs here.

What a hero you've picked. And all you have to show is some videoblogs and russian propaganda. Nice. Who needs the CIA if we have youtube? Looks to me the wool over your eyes is the least of your problems. It's gotten into your brain.

I am not claiming that Ghadaffi (sp?) was a saint or even a . .

. good leader.

Historical perspective is needed here. No doubt Libyans have fled to other countries. How many of the DPers realize that much of southeastern Canada is comprised of descendants of British loyalists who left the 'colonies' before, during, and after the Revolutionary War?

Colonization has always caused problems, wherever it occurs, and it has occurred everywhere. There is always remaining 'blood' from empires.

I have no doubt that there have been atrocities. What I ask is does American intervention make things better? Or worse? And for whom? Why must American lives be lost? Why take sides at all?

Another reason to stay out of these areas. Global corporations and kingdoms and empires have done enough to devastate indigenous people, when they aren't devastating themselves. And economically desperate young people in America will join armies and navies and go off to these places and die there.

It's all very sad.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Nor am I claiming our

Nor am I claiming our intervention was good thing. More so if you consider Benghazi is famous for sending the toughest mujaheddin into Afghanistan, Iraq among other places and we were putting people in power we had no idea who they were.

But the prospect of the same kind of slaughter that's going on in Syria right now happening in Benghazi was very real. Is your non-interventionism strong enough to stand by and let that happen? I'll be honest. Mine was shaken.

I believe that, though there are certainly enough criminals . .

. who are native to all other nations of the world (besides ours), the CIA has been too involved in covert activities for too many decades for any of these happenings to be what they "appear" to be--

if the CIA at least participated in the mayhem, how can the U.S. military help?

I just don't believe in American exceptionalism. I honestly do not believe that *they* are more evil than *we*.

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

I don't believe in us vs.

I don't believe in us vs. them, or good vs. evil. We're all evil, or good. And criminals are usually criminals because they know something we don't and aren't afraid to use it.

But I think you overestimate what the CIA, and the US is capable of a situation like that. They don't have nearly as much control over the world as many Americans like to think. It's understandable if you look at the media, entertainment and public debate. It's all this war-like let's look for the enemy and kill it-mentality that's the real problem. That's why conspiracy theories are kind of funny to me, since they still assume there's this all powerful US government capable of running all that. To me that's two sides of the same coin. Call it reverse-statism.

They're involved, but so is China, Russia and just about every other country on the planet, even my puny country. They all try to manipulate the situation in their favor, but it doesn't mean the situation would've have existed without their involvement. It would just be different, because someone else would've gotten involved and try to bend it their way. And the business of government is dirty business, it's just how it is. The nature of the game. Government = conflict resolution. You could clone Ron Paul into every position in government and maybe you wouldn't have conflict but you also wouldn't have liberty. You could as well just skip the cloning and install him as absolute monarch on a mandate from god (and that's how a lot of religion gets invented, but that's another story).

LD (*shortening*) . . . :)

I've appreciated your comments before, and I like your perspective.

However (don't you love it when people come up with "however")--

*your* country isn't puny. Don't you know how much 'havoc' the Dutch wrecked in South Africa! (and some good, too; nobody is all bad; I agree with you)--

The Dutch were involved in the American pre-revolution; they were the ones who had the banks back then and a lot of gold.

Anyway, I'm getting off on a tangent. I do understand that a lot of conspiracy theorists are too 'black and white'--

And I am being misunderstood if anyone thinks that I believe this is all the "U.S. government". No, I believe the CIA is now a 'rogue' organization with all sorts of ties to corporations, etc. Sort of a government-initiated intelligence mafia. I am sure there are good people in the CIA, even now--
but like so many organizations/people, it became full of itself--

Yes, I believe we all have good and evil in us, but there are psychopathic personalities, and often they can accomplish evil that others can't or won't accomplish.

But, this is the sort of thing I am talking about. Anyone can argue with this, too, but--

I happen to believe that this is just one man; I have met a few people who have had some strange backgrounds, things they won't talk about--and so . . .

here:

http://www.wanttoknow.info/johnperkinseconomichitman

As much as it's easier to believe that there is no secrecy in the world . . .--

there has been plenty of it in the past; why not now? Think of the atrocities committed on the descendants of the Aztecs and Mayans in the "new world" by 'adventurers'. Those things can't be denied--

I believe it just happens in a different way now--

And, yes, I believe other countries are really no better than the U.S. The difference is that the U.S. HAD become big and wealthy and had the power to do more hurt. While hurting others, I believe that there have been many Americans who have gone about doing good in other countries, sometimes, even.

But, then, I DO believe in Dr. Paul's theory about blowback.

Explains a lot of things--

Oh, and I believe the corporatists, globalists, bankers, etc.--who have encouraged the sort of thing that Perkins did . . .--

would not have allowed him to 'confess' if they didn't think they already had the noose around our collective 'neck'--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Hehe.. I know about our

Hehe.. I know about our history. It has everything. Pirates, slave traders, rebellion, religious wars, pestilence, colonists, racists. World War 2 was a nice one too. That's my point.. we're tiny, but dirty as hell. And so is everybody else. I don't think anything is going to change that. Why do you think so many people in power want a one world government? Hah, they have to deal with that mess everyday.

I think we agree on a lot of points here. I saw John Perkins in docs a couple times. It's always been my understanding that CIA is sort of rogue by design. And I think there's definitely something to the psychopath theory. But I don't really care who pulls the strings. It's the strings that's the problem ;) And in the end I'm convinced even the string-pullers only have limited real power and that there isn't really a big master plan or design going. It's just a mess. They may know things we don't, but ultimately they're not any smarter. They're still human so they're still just monkeys with an unreasonably high opinion of themselves, like the rest of us.
Everybody (including the psychopaths) just goes with what's best for them, and somehow we end up with all this. You can change the people at the top, but until you fix the system somebody else is just gonna climb that ladder and 'do what's necessary'. That's the real danger, not David Rockenschilder or whoever the alpha monkey may be.

But that's just my opinion. Never underestimate our collective stupidity.

I agree with FD

I personally know a Libyan who fled the country because of the strife there back in the 80's. You are trying to support an unsupportable position by arguing for Ghadaffi. The man was a dictator, not uncommon for that part of the world. Do I think the US should've had boots on the ground to help the Libyan insurgents? No.