25 votes

I Hate To See You Go

I Hate To See You Go

Go. Build the third party route. Do it without Ron Paul’s blessing.

I will continue to follow the GOP route the way I think it can be best done, and I too will do it without Ron Paul’s blessing.

Ron Paul doesn’t give us much direction; it’s simply not his style. And nothing said by Ron Paul will make it matter one way or the other anyway. Leading our group is like herding cats and no one, not even the Honorable Ron Paul, would succeed in rounding us all up and organizing us systematically. Accordingly, with the exception of some paid campaign staff, Ron Paul doesn’t endorse the behavior of any of us on behalf of liberty. We are a decentralized movement.

Ultimately no amount of conversation on the Daily Paul will mean a thing on this topic. It will be our actions that matter.

I know in reality that a lot of the folks who comment on Daily Paul are cyber loudmouths who don’t contribute much to the political process. Some are great folks who talk boldly and act boldly, but my guess is that,

as is the nature of the internet, not all are, and I’m not certain what all the shouting and rude language about third parties on the Daily Paul is worth. Ultimately, it comes down to action – getting out there and building a path for a freedom-minded candidate, like Ron Paul, to take the Oval Office, no matter what party he runs in.

After Running for Congress
After a run for U.S. House in 2008, I came to recognize the difficulties that come with making a third party run into anything more than a protest vote. Tremendous effort will always be spent on ballot access, media recognition, and simply getting a voter to take you seriously. The two major parties have developed a system to make it precisely that way.

I come from a place where the system is especially biased against a third party candidate, but when I look around at the other states and see that the fifty governors are almost always exclusively Republicans or Democrats, I know that each state probably has some kind of system in place for making third parties unfeasible.

That, of course, is by design, and sometimes it’s better to roll with a punch than to fight every battle in front of you. If you yourself have not also run as a third party candidate, I would like to caution you against so quickly leaving the privileged position that we’ve earned ourselves in the GOP. If you have run third party, then I highly respect that your position, whatever it is, comes from a voice of experience.

I’m inclined to think that it is not a voice of experience that suggests a third party route is going to be some kind of magic solution to our woes in 2012, especially when there are few examples of third party success in partisan elections.

After Being Active Through the Ron Paul 2008 Election
I learned that true to Ron Paul’s word, centralizing government will bring a situation where just a handful of people can screw it up for everyone. A campaign is the same way. A few people making bad decisions screws it up for everyone. Instead of working to make Ron Paul the winner of their own social precinct, or making sure that Ron Paul gets $10,000 this month from their circle of friends, or activating every Ron Paul supporter they know, many Ron Paul supporters either write online about an idea or sit on an idea, as if waiting for someone to come along to tell them to step up and make a project happen. If there is an idea for how you can improve Ron Paul’s chance of success, please step up and make it happen. Do it now. Consider this your request, if a request is what you are waiting for.

There are awesome ideas in the liberty movement, we just need to get out of the mindset that Ron Paul is our leader. Ron Paul has good ideas, but when it comes down to it, he’s our puppet and he chooses to be our puppet. He willingly makes himself a politician and a politician’s job is to be a puppet. He won’t say anything we want or vote on anything we want, but he will, as long as we keep paying the bills – continue to travel the country campaigning on the message of liberty. He will surround himself with people he trusts to handle the basic work of the campaign. As long as we support him, he will allow us to place him in the Oval Office, which could very well be the last place he would want to find himself. Both he and we recognize that he’s the unique man for the job at this point in history.

But we, the grassroots, don’t need his permission, and shouldn’t even want his permission, to do a thing – including make him President. I mean, recognition is nice, but in the midst of a campaign, the candidate isn’t supposed to do anything but what his campaign manager tells him to do, which mostly means preparing to speak, speaking, meeting people, and raising money. In all likelihood that means Ron Paul isn’t going to give anyone’s pet project a special blessing to start it off on the right foot

Of course, what that means is that we should each be seeking to act – either to present our ideas to others and rally support for them or to fall in line behind someone else with a better idea. At all times we must each be followers and leaders, not wasting time, but acting as effectively as possible. What that means is that some people on the Daily Paul will be moving on from focusing on Ron Paul’s official campaign in order to help start third party campaigns for the Presidency. We’ll of course be meeting still on the Daily Paul and in other places, but we will simply be agreeing that it is time to work toward two different solutions for getting Ron Paul elected.

I hate to see you go, but I know others will replace you. There will be Santorum supporters and all kinds of folks that I would prefer not to be around all that much, but let’s face it, I didn’t get involved in politics to make friends. I got into politics to get enough people to agree with enough of what I believe for me to be allowed a modicum of freedom. Honestly, only a few percentage of Americans think Ron Paul’s the solution the way we do and not many more than that are able to understand why we think Ron Paul or any politician is the solution. Our cultish admiration does not compute for most others. That’s fine, because I don’t need a person to agree 100% with me to be on my team. It’s that point in the campaign where we build a coalition to ensure nomination.

When Ron Paul gets the nomination, some neo-conservatives in the GOP will get worked up and will look for a third party candidate to support, others will help Obama, some will stay home, but many activist Republicans will get to the work of electing their “anybody-but-Obama” candidate. They don’t really care what Ron Paul stands for, because at least he’s better than Obama and has an “R” behind his name. That’s what we get when we stay in the GOP – some percentage of sheep ready to follow a shepherd through thick and thin. The shepherd’s staff is the partisan standard and the shepherd the standard bearer. These aren’t the unruly cats that refuse to be herded. If a popular vote is the hurdle between freedom and tyranny then the influence of those sheep shouldn’t be underestimated. They are important. The fact that they must come into play in politics is one of the reasons I don’t like politics as much as I like writing.

You Take the High Road and I’ll Take the Low Road
Leaving a bogus party in the two party system feels like the high road. The LP, from my experience, is just a dog with different fleas. The hundreds of other third parties are probably the same. Any organization will have its flaws. The GOP is far from perfect. I don’t like to tie myself to any party honestly. I’m not much of a joiner. It just seems to me from being on the outside that there’s little that will stop us from taking control of the GOP – not over twenty years, as some have suggested, but this year, by the end of this summer, the majority of state Republican parties may not have chairs that are Ron Paul supporters, but they will for all practical purposes be run by Ron Paul supporters – as the most dedicated people in the party (which in many cases means that 10 or 20 Ron Paul supporters in each state who have their heads on straight and really care) get involved to retake our country.

There’s nothing sinister about “taking over” a party. It’s just the most active people rising through the ranks to replace those who have grown complacent. It’s a healthy process for a party. We want a better country and the GOP looks like the quickest path to that. In 2012, some regular Joe Plumber GOP types will be psyched up to knock Obama out of office. That’s respectable. Lots of people will pay attention to the election. In 2014, fewer people will care about the elections taking place, as is normal for mid-term elections, and by then Ron Paul supporters will have taken over every GOP in this country. Within two years there will be a big tent major party willing to accommodate anyone who cares about freedom.

The only reason to oppose that is if you 1. Don’t like freedom or 2. Are set in your ways about how a party should be run and what faces should be let in the door.

While I’m busy helping that process happen, you will be out there building the third party route. By me working on my project, I’ll be helping you and by you working on your project, you’ll be helping me – because we want the same thing – greater freedom. And one day, you and I will come together and meet back in the middle. But for now, I think I’m done discussing whether Ron Paul should run third party. I have work to do. I’ll be out there acting. I ask you to do the same. If you think the third party route is the way to go, then get out there and knock on some doors, don’t just write about it on the Daily Paul. If you think the two party route is the way to go, then go do the same. What we can surely agree on is that a politician like Ron Paul does not come around every four years and that this year is the year that this man must be elected.

As we temporarily part paths, I wish you luck my fellow patriot as you put yourself on the line and run Ron Paul for the Oval Office as a third party candidate. I hope you will wish me the same good wishes. Godspeed, my friend. May you be more successful than either of us can even imagine.

Allan Stevo is author of How to Win America for Ron Paul and the Cause of Freedom in 2012. The book can be downloaded by readers of the Daily Paul here free of charge.



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Imagine a company that worked

Imagine a company that worked years to build its image and another company slowly but surely worked to damage the product. Their customers went along with the damaged product until they discovered the product they purchased became contaminated.

The product needs to be sterilized. Its not up to the rightful owners of a company that built a massive brand loyalty to pack their bags and forfeit their property. If anyone needs to create a third party, its the neocons.

eh, I dunno.....

On one hand, it looks like we *MIGHT* grab enough delegates to make an impact in Tampa, but on the other hand, are we *SURE* this can happen?.. I'm so effin' confused!.. I have some serious concerns about "staying the course" and taking over the GOP. For one, I don't really believe it can happen. Perhaps my faith has just been weakened over the years, but I find it almost impossible to believe that the GOP will ever welcome us into the fold. Sure, I can see a lot changes taking place and am certain that many more liberty minded candidates will win house & senate seats in the years to come, but will this be enough? Will it be too little too late?... I've searched my feelings on this matter time and time again and in my heart, I feel like we should go third party. I understand that the GOP is a powerhouse. It's a recognizable brand, much like Coca-Cola and Pepsi. In fact, when you go to a restaurant, they typically serve either Coke products or Pepsi Products... rarely do you see an "off-brand" cola on the menu, and this is a great analogy for our current problem. WE are neither "Coke" nor "Pepsi". We are more like "Jones Soda", popular, but not available in most restaurants. (please forgive me if Jones is actually owned by Coke or Pepsi, I didn't know, just trying to make a point). Anyway, my point is this: We're not sweet enough to be Pepsi, we're too sweet to be Coca-Cola, and we're not a "recognizable brand" yet. Brand recognition is key. The Republicans and Democrats have had decades and decades to build their "brand" and they've done a great job at it, just like Coke & Pepsi, but our "brand" is gaining momentum as well. Just remember there was a time before the days of Coke & Pepsi when people just drank tea & water, and no one ever thought things would get sweeter or fizzier. I'm here to tell you that we can get sweeter and fizzier AND we can establish a "brand" that really gives the Republicans and Democrats a run for their money. We have to be the alternative, much like Coca-Cola was in it's beginning. I whole heartedly believe we must go third party in order to give the people what they want. Democrats don't wanna be Democrats or Republicans anymore.. and Republicans don't wanna be Democrats or Republicans anymore. We have to give them a balanced party to turn to. We've already started our "brand", now it's time to build it up. Please join me in pushing for a third party run.

"sometimes I hug the coffee table when no one is looking."

Do research on 3Rd parties

www.politics1. com

Third parties are established by the elite to vet candidates and issues.

If Ron Paul was going to start a new third party, it should be called THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, becaue his message is to restore the REPUBLIC to a constitution and bill of rights.

Ralph Nader in 1996 said, "There is no differnece between parties, they are like coke and pepsi". We were looking for water.. transparency... things have not changed, except some of the nastier Neocons occupying the GOP have died leaving gaps.

Have you joined the GOP?

Have you attended your Republican Central Committee meetings?

This is how we succeed. Not wasting out time inventing a "new party".

Coca-Cola Vs. New Coke...

Remember when Coke changed it's recipe?.. New Coke just couldn't get the old establishment behind it... it failed miserably. Probably woulda done much better under a different name not associated with Coke. Just sayin'.... have fun pandering to the Neo-Cons at the GOP. They'll never accept you, bro.

"sometimes I hug the coffee table when no one is looking."

You got it backwards Lady

Wait a minute.. I'm the lady here, and as for the Neocons,,,, It's a matter of me accepting them, I'm the NEW blood in the GOP.. They are the old crap and it's time to move 'em OUT!

Show up and get rid of them!

Ron Paul is my political leader

He leads by example, not by telling me what to do, but more like showing me how to do it.

I am now registered Republican, because of Ron Paul
I am now on my Republican Central Committee, because of Ron Paul
I am now seeking a seat on my Board of Supervisors because of Ron Paul's influence, which is also a form of leadership.

Your either/or wins?

Allan,
Wake up...Ron Paul will not be the nominee. We want him in the race through November. The only way this will happen is if he gets his name on the general election ballot. There are only two ways to do this: independent run or third party run.

The good news is if Ron Paul decides to run as an independent, his delegates can still go to the GOP convention. They can still get elected at local, state and national levels and have a voice and even a candidate at the convention. They can vote together as a block for Rand Paul in Tampa while his father pursues the indy or 3rd party route.

This strategy will take cooperation from Ron Paul and his campaign. Dr. Paul is not our puppet or yours. He will listen if enough of us speak up together. I assume you do want him to be in the general election. You hate to see us go? Where are we going?

Why is it so bothersome to you that we are trying to persuade Ron Paul to keep his delegates encouraged about reforming the GOP and at the same time do what is necessary to be on the ballot and get in the debates this fall?

Are you saying that all of us who are advocating this strategy are only writing and not doing? Are you saying we are not going to vote for him in the remaining GOP primaries? Are you saying that none of us who see his best option now as going outside the GOP are not also advocating for his delegates?

Why must you make this an either/proposition? We can continue to influence and hopefully take over the GOP while doing what is needed to get Dr. Paul on the ballot. Why do you see this as mutually exclusive. I have not read or heard anyone telling Ron Paul delegates to stay away from Tampa. Have you? I once thought that trying to win the GOP nomination was the thing to do.

I've viewed the process, seen the primary and caucus results and looked at the filing schedule, and I have change my mind. I agree with Ron Paul, we ought to try to influence the GOP; we just need to do this while he gets on the general election ballots outside of the GOP.

Please stop insisting that these goals are mutually exclusive.

There are only two ways to do this: independent run or third par

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong
An Independent Candidacy will require One and One Quarter MILLION signatures to get on all 50 state ballots. Sept 7 is the last date to file in 6 states. The deadline to file will have passed in 42 states before the close of the Republican National Convention. www.ballot-access.org So you can abandon your fantasy of Dr. Paul running as an Independent Candidate.

Third Party you say. Really!!! While many like your self promote a third party, they deliberately continue to post misinformation and disinformation. The Libertarian Party and the Constitution Party "ARE NOT" on the ballot in "ALL 50 STATES". "FAR FROM IT". The Libertarian Party is currently on the ballot in 30 states with the expectation of being on the ballot in 40 to 45 states for the General Election. The Constitution Party is currently on the ballot in 14 states with an expectation of being on the ballot in 35 or more states. www.ballot-access.org

As I have posted several times on the DP, there is a way to vote for Dr. Paul in the Primaries and also in the General Election if he does not receive the Republican Party Nomination that will verify that your vote should be counted. Take the "TEST" below to determine the answer. "Hint" the answer to question #1 & #6 is "YES"

Try a New Experience - “THINK”

[1] Think - Is there one legally verifiable way to make sure my vote is counted.
Answer- _________________________________________________________
[2] Think - What are my voting options?
Answer- _________________________________________________________
[3] Think - Which of my voting options is easiest to verify?
Answer- _________________________________________________________
[4] Think - What would be required to verify my vote?
Answer- _________________________________________________________
[5] Think - How would I acquire what is needed to verify my vote?
Answer- _________________________________________________________
[6] Think - Will this action guarantee that my vote should be counted?
Answer- _________________________________________________________

If you do not know the Answer to the above questions, then it is time to Try a New Experience - THINK

Respectfully yours,

Free-Idaho - Lets Keep it That Way

Voluntary Association+Mutual cooperation+110% Personal Responsibility = 100% Individual Liberty

The “ONLY” legitimate justification for the USE of FORCE is the PROTECTION of LIFE, LIBERTY and PROPERTY.

The use of Force or Fraud in any of its forms to achieve Social, Political, Economic, Cultural, Religious, Personal or any other reason should be a Capitol Offense.

The Philosophy of Liberty http://www.thephilosophyofliberty.com/
http://www.thephilosophyofliberty.com/read.php

Voluntary Association + Mutual Cooperation + 110% Personal Responsibility = 100% Individual Liberty

Wake up Ron Paul will not be on an Indy or 3RD Party Ballot

I worked for Ralph Nader's INDEPENDENT ballot access for THREE elections in several states. I believe every election we worked for Nader's INDEPENDENT ballot access, the major parties and the people within them, who work for state registars and county clerks offices, just got better and better DESTROYING us. We spent our campaign money fighting law suit after law suit after law suit.. 22 law suits in 17 states. We NEVER made ballot access in all states.. You won't get Oklahoma.. so you lose right there!

Many of us who helped Nader had been election workers who saw 92 as a stolen election. We knew the laws, respected the laws, and still got arrested, beat up, vandalized... it was hard work, and many of us were HURT hurt by police, sheriffs, managers of places, people who we will never know. Now, with the war on terrorism, it's not like we can have accounts to bail people out of jail.

If you have not worked at petitioning for thousands of signatures, in many states, sleeping on floors, depending on people you don't know to give you rides to and from the airport, or to bail you out of jail because someone just so happens to not like your candidates, to eat when you can, what you can, for months, working with hundreds of people... and to collect hundreds of thousands of signatures and for some corrupt office worker to tell you,,, "You don't have enough valid signatures, after you spent nights, gleaning through petitions to make sure you had GOOD signatures.

To me, you mean well, but you don't have the experience to actually know what you are asking. Nader was even arrested for showing up to a Gore Bush debate he had a ticket, and an appointment with CNN, to be interviewed... when he arrived, he was immediately arrested.

This is what you want for Ron Paul?????????????

You think these SOBs are nicer now?????

YOU DON'T GET IT.

We have a shot in the GOP... We are why Romney is not the nominee.. The grassroots effort is very affective... We are up against corruption, and yet, we have a foot in the door. If Ron Paul was to say... "I need to be on the ballot no matter what... get me an Indy run (Which my experience with Nader... we worked with third parties).. Nader was NEVER a Green Party member... he accepted their nomination... he accepted nominations from the left and the right just to get on the ballot. IT DIDN'T work!!!!! The powers that be are corrupt, they don't play fair. Good people were HURT bad. This is what you want???? You think the same SOBs are now going to be and play nice for Ron Paul?

Ron Paul goes Indy and they will make mincemeat out of the grassroots because they had practice and the Nader campaign had major lawsuits, Judges wouldn't even look at the law suits... that is how bad we lost.

This is our shot. There is no two prong way to win.

I have ONE regret, that I did not join the GOP in 07. I had been registered Decline to State Party since 93... and with all the work I did for Nader, I thought... Ron Paul goes Indy I CAN HELP.. been there done that... but he didn't go Indy, and I knew he would not when he registered for 2012, so I joined the GOP. I found RINO/ Neocons/ Democrats TWO, where there should be 20, running the GOP. My GOP is corrupt, and people tell me... be careful, they are NOT good or nice... they are communists and they murder and frame folks to win... I have already been threatened twice.

If Ron Paul was to go Indy... I'd be toast.

As a Nader supporter, I was a progressive. I no longer am progressive and that's because Progressives have NO voice, are not represented except Huffington Post blogs.. you have no representation in your city, county, state council... Progressive is a farce. WAKE UP. Please!

Thank you Granger

Yours is the by far the most thoughtful but critical reply to what I am advocating. I admit that your wisdom on the experience of independent campaigns is far superior to mine. yet as wise as you are there, you can't tell me you actually believe Ron Paul has a shot at getting the GOP nomination, can you? Even if Romney agreed to have him on the ticket, he would lose millions of neo-con votes and a neocon would find a cultural conservative to mount a write-in campaign run that would give Obama the win.

I would also say that I was one who was very angry with Nader for what happened to Al Gore but the times are different. We are in the midst of an unending war and both parties are trying to expand it to Iran. The American people are growing weary of war and as Ron Paul points out, we can no longer afford it.

The establishment will of course try to resist an independent campaign. But I think a real coalition candidacy would overwhelm that resistance. I am not hopeful that such a campaign will be formed and you are probably right that Ron Paul has made up his mind to stick with the GOP and the actuarial strategy of reforming it.

My point is that will take another 12 years minimum. With mounting debt and relentless underemployment, a war stimulus is most likely what both parties have in mind. Theirs is a struggle not over policy but over who hands out the contracts.

All of this adds up to me thinking that there is easily 25% of the voting population who would support a coalition ticket this year. It might not grow to 34% or be able to win the electoral college but it could be a loud enough voice to get both parties to think twice about escalating this war for war profiteers. And if they did make the mistake of getting us into another middle east fiasco, a coalition candidacy would crush both parties in 2020.

Maybe this is all a hail Mary on my part. I just see the lights fading on this campaign. The prime time speech will be tolerated and his non endorsement be seen as good news to a party hell bent on violence as the means to economic prosperity.

Again I thank you for a wise critical response. It's a rarity here as well as on the Huffington Post.

May the God of Peace prevail where we fail.

Thank you Progressives4Paul for your kindness

It is not always easy to respond kindly to a critical post, and I respect and appreciate your ability to do that.

Here in CA, the lights are not fading on his campaign. Wee the people are not happy about what is happening to Ron Paul.

If you read my personal statement, you saw that I never thought I would be a Republican. But I'm a perfect Ron Paul Republican. Now that I am feeling very cpmfortable as a Ron Paul Republican, what I am witnessing is amazing:

At my Republican Central Committee meeting, where we were interviewing candiates, I aske one about hos thoughts on the Federal Reserve Bank. He says, "Let me tell you, I had a 44 minute meeting with Ron Paul. It's not easy to get a meeting like that, but Ron Paul was generaous, a very kind, consider and smart men... he was endorcing Ron Paul... Dad Roberts, who I asked the question is an investment broker. When he left so the executive committee could vote.. a women who is a high profile Republican leans across the table and asks me, "Ar you for Ron Paul?"

"I am" I said. So she tells me, "I am too. My grandkids showed me him on the internet..." Another women leans to me, "Are you talking about Ron Paul?" "We are", I say, "Me and my partner love him!"

My chair is a Democrat infiltraitor... the GOP has been taken hostage.

When I was buying a fruit tree, I meet a man who is famous in this area,,, he tells me he loves Ron Paul, hopes Ron Paul has a chance...

Progressives tell me that Ron Paul will have me thrown into a FEMA camp. IOWs they will not fight, but run and hide in hopes they will slip under the radar (they won't).

My pastor registered to vote for the first time in his 50 years, registered Republican to vote for Ron Paul. He told me, we won't have a Church is Ron Paul does not win. This is very serious.

The good fight is in the GOP.

We need to get in the GOP and fight the Democrats who are occupying it. The majority of people in my RCC are appointed, not elected. They are lying, cheating and doing everything they can to give us 4 more years of Obama in an effort to destroy America and make a global gulag.

Divided we fall. The people who tell us, "I'd vote for Ron Paul if he was Indy". DON'T GET IT, and from my experience, they lie. The fight is for the GOP. We need to take the GOP. That really is our fight, and we need to convince people that it's NOT about what MSM says, MSM LIES!!!! The truth is, the GOP has been infiltraited and we need to take it back to restore the Republic as a constitutional government with a Bill of Rights to protect us.

Ron Paul is not going to go Indy...or #Rd, because his message is Restoring THE REPUBLIC and he sees it can be done through the REPUBLIC CAN party.

Our biggest fight is against fear, ignorance and hatred developed from MSM.

It's a damn good fight, and honestly, I'm glad I'm involved. AND, if my progressive friends are correct, that my Ron Paul association is going to have me put away in a FEMA camp... well, at least I'll be with other Ron Paul Republicans, and that beats living in fear.

I hope you drop the progressive and join the Republicans and get in this good fight! I have no regrets, except I wish I did it in 07.

Peace be with you!

Ok as I see it

I have number 1 get the message out about the criminal monatary sytem compou8nding false national debt extorted theft called tax cowardly submission, debt slave.

Ron Paul is the leading messenger (as he puts it). So he is carying the megaphone which is powered by our efforts.

Awakining humanity to acheive a critical mass and change direction.

A leaderless revolution, using enlightened disengagement as the weapon of choice a critical mass of about 5% or 350million sovereign humans disengage fromt he Redsheild fiat digitized compounding debt issue of sovereign debts system. Shortly after the rest of humanity will follow.

We are near the end of the 3rd ponzi rothschild bank cycle of false debt each cycle ends in world war and im not sure humanity will survive the next one.

So its a race to either freedome or oblivion but the one thing I know for sure about life is that none of us are gona get out alive.

So I do this for the generations to come as well as out of respect for those past generations that fought against these criminals.

sovereign

take over gop

Ok, here's the way I see it. I think our main goal is all about saving this country(by ending the war, ending the fed, ending tyranny, etc.)

Let's say we all made a decision to start a third party. Ok great! Now what do we have? We still have the two parties intact, democrats and the gop, (that we think are corrupt) and now us. What's going to happen is that we have to contend with two opponents. So basically we're starting a battle with 2 fronts, democrats & gop. Our focus and effort will be split. More resources will then be needed.

As we all know, the msm favors both parties. If we're getting ignored as a republican, how much more as a third party. They will argue that we are insignificant therefor we don't deserve that much coverage. Again, we need more resources to offset this disadvantage.

There's also a scenario that both parties will work together to derail us.

Now, how about the strategy of taking over the gop which is happening now. We say the gop corrupt...so by taking over and "cleaning" the gop, we are in essence crippling an opponent from the inside. The corrupt gop's can then change and stay within the party or they can move to the democrats. So instead of having 2 opponents at the beginning of the battle, we will have only one to deal with. Instead of splitting our resources, we can fully focus a concentrated effort towards defeating the democrats.

Now the issue with the msm...us being the gop against the democrats leaves the msm no other choice but to pay attention to us too. They can't shrug us off because we are one of the main parties. Let's say they all try to favor just the democrats, I would think that this will backfire on them because this will only show everyone the true color of the bias msm leaving them with scarred reputation/credibility (which would be good for us too because they are part of the systemic problem that we're trying to fix).

This scenario gives us the most advantageous position. We've effectively eliminated an opponent and at the same time positioning ourselves on equal footing against the remaining opponent (the democrats).

I think it's obvious which route we should take. Taking on two opponents head on is too much for us right now with our strength and our best plan of action is to take over the gop.

If I'm wrong, please feel free to convince me. Thanks!

Helloooooooooooooo????

Is it lonely out there in "It's all about me" land? We HAVE to play with the hand we are given.

~Your perception becomes your reality~

Wonderful!

You express my sentiments and opinions beautifully. I cannot speak from personal experience about running as a third party candidate. I have spent most of my adult life as a relatively passive if not very interested observer of politics. That changed dramatically for me in 2007.

My discussions about third party strategies on Daily Paul have been at least partially motivated by the idea that there would be newbies who might be persuaded to waste their time and energy by other well-meaning but ignorant patriots.

And there has also been the realization that at least some of those people working so hard to persuade might NOT be so well-meaning. In that case I hoped that it would become apparent through their arguments.

But you are right. There is no end to honest disagreement and it is ultimately impossible to tell the difference between a determined mole and a fool.

Anyway, I completely endorse your acceptance of friendly coexisting strategies. But those who reject the GOP strategy really should stop raiding the Daily Paul looking for recruits.

Let their successes do the talking.

******************************
The Virtual Conspiracy

Check your ego...

"...newbies who might be persuaded to waste their time and energy by other well-meaning but ignorant patriots." Ignorant of what exactly? There are challenges to both strategies and I fully endorse any and all attempts to promote Ron Paul and his ideas. You should too.

I also call BS on your assertion that working for freedom is in any way a "waste [of] their time and energy." Do you mean like wasting your vote by voting for Dr. Paul? I hope you catch my point there and don't come back to tell me how it isn't a wasted vote. The irony would be too much for me to take. You don't have any special insight that the rest of us don't have. Your ego and your inflated sense of self-worth don't count as insight.

"impossible to tell the difference between a determined mole and a fool." There is no bigger fool than one who believes he's 100% right. Oh I'm looking at you. This is the DailyPaul and not the DailyGoP. I'm glad you and the Mrs. are super psyched about her new position but that doesn't affect me at all. Taking over the GoP is not success. Changing this country is success. Our end goal should be to end the two party system, not embrace it to the point of putting down your brothers and sisters in liberty.

There was nothing friendly about the OP or your post. Your divisive arrogance offends me. You essentially called half of the people on this forum fools and I take offense to that on behalf of anyone working to the best of their abilities to enact the change they truly believe in. Are we taking over the GoP so we can become as elitist and self-absorbed as they are? Sounds like a great strategy.

NOTE: I am not advocating violence in any way. The content of the post is for intellectual, theoretical, and philosophical discussion. FEDS, please don't come to my house.

Like the OP and I said...

go for it. No one is stopping you.

I didn't call you or any one else a mole.
Most of the time I don't even look to see who a poster is because I don't go in for ad hominem attacks. I find them particularly offensive in an online forum where people can come and go anonymously but some of us choose to maintain a consistent persona. It gives us a track record that can be criticized and even occasionally exposes our family members to cheap shots by loudmouthed jerks.

I can't speak for others, but the reason I do it is to give some continuity to my story. I don't do it to brag. I share my successes AND failures. I hope that people can learn from my mistakes. I hope that they will be inspired by our successes.

You are more than welcome to do the same.

Or you can keep trying to send in plays from the sideline and booing the people trying to make a difference.

******************************
The Virtual Conspiracy

Good Luck With A Flawed Strategy

have you read the articles about the way the establishment GOP (King County, WA) moved to block RP delegate representation? Did you read that those people don't think RP people are Republicans? Now consider that sentiment all across America.

I am not going to go actie on third party strategy while I still feel RP has some chance at the nomination. But mark my words - the RNC will make a move to keep Paul delegates away from the convention or at least muzzle them. When that happens - I expect all you take over the GOP fantisizers will be in my camp.

All you have to do is say - yes you were right and then we move on from there.

He Is Right & Wrong

He is right that third party believers need to take action. He is wrong that taking over the GOP is the way to go - at least in terms of long-term strategy. The MSM owns both parties and the monied donate and have influence over candidates in both parties. There is no guarantee that liberty-minded candidates can take over a corrupt party- that is just fact. I hope others who are pro-third party will unite at the end of this campaign and work on a great project -taking over an existing or starting a new party - changing its platform, if needed,and enlist people to run - and actually support these people. Just think how much more competitive Liberty candidates would be if the money from these bombs went to support their campaigns? We will have to start with internet source like DailyPaul to keep each other informed and coordinate efforts, but can move up to including radio and possibly T.V. What do you think?

All this third party talk stinks

and it shows the opposition we are not united. How can we tell the people of all the caucus states work hard win delegate positions, but it won't matter Paul may switch, to third party. It is not cheap for supporters to become delegates. Paul is a highly principled man, we all agree an that. Paul is also very dedicated to his followers he will not abandon them for a third party fling. The way I see it Paul is also a very loyal person. We should not ask him to consider a third party until all avenues are exhausted first.

How many times does he have to repeat it MSM asks him constantly. He is not interested in a third party won't even consider it at this time. I don't think Ron Paul would just walk away if he doesn't win in Tampa.

Surviving the killing fields of Minnesota

Todays brainwashing: GMO's are safe

Well-said, Hopefully someone forms a 3rd party

as it has proven difficult to impossible to take over a corrupt party. This is GOP's worst fear, but they don't have much to fear because a large chunk of RP supporters will never leave Romney and going with an establishment party.

jj

What is left out

is the economy - the driving force of the belly that determines vote for most. If economy were working okay, few would care about endless wars, secret prisons, torture, big government, the FED, etc.

The reality is that with good or "okay" economy, we cannot vote the tyranny out. So all our intellectual political skills, tactics & prowess depends on the economic facts on the ground.

From a pessimistic prospective: "You can gradually vote the tyranny in, but you can never vote it out" (based on eight 'free' republics that ever existed in history.) Thus, "oath keepers" would be upset if the downsizing of government means kicking them out of their jobs paid by taxpayers. Disagreement will be also if military veterans cannot seat on government hand outs for ever and white women cannot have their affirmative-action.

From a optimistic prospective, people are "followers" by nature, we just need to get a critical mass and convince key people.

Thanks for your insight, but

Thanks for your insight, but we're doing just fine within the Republican Party and the third party idea failed miserably as proven by the Libertarian Party. Parties don't matter. What matters is what works and Ron Paul has proven that his strategy works.

False Dichotomy...

Helping to take over the GoP and supporting a third party run are not mutually exclusive. Only in your head must we draw that line. Nobody is going anywhere...

NOTE: I am not advocating violence in any way. The content of the post is for intellectual, theoretical, and philosophical discussion. FEDS, please don't come to my house.

Thanks TJ

Glad someone else questions his presupposition.

Wow...

You think way to highly of yourself. Arrogant and preachy, I wouldn't vote for you man, don't be so dismissive of the people that gave you the platform to feel so important. Arrogance sucks pal, and acting like your some sort of insightful guru makes you look like an ass.

"The radical of one century is the conservative of the next. The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out, the conservative adopts them." - Mark Twain

My frustration...

is volumes. If Ron Paul doesnt want to lead us, he shouldnt be seeking the highest office to lead from. People need leadership and although Im extremely independent, I need leadership too.

I posted this a few weeks ago:

http://www.dailypaul.com/224115/why-doesnt-ron-paul-lead-us

DailyPaul member 1603

'Peace is a powerful message.' Ron Paul

I don't need anyone leading me

I function just fine without government in my business, better than fine. I feel so frigging put upon with all of the regulations.

I'm looking to buy property that's 50 miles from the nearest neighbor and I just found out today that I have to STILL check for regulations and get permissions. I'm sick of it all.

So while I can understand, even if it turns my stomach, that some people need someone telling them what to do, it just isn't the case for all of us.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

The President isn't supposed to be a "leader" he's supposed to

carry out the laws.

That means he does the work that Congress created for him.

That hardly speaks of "leader."

Certainly, General Washington set a fine example as President as to how one should behave in office.

Ron is the closest thing we have to that.

He will set new examples that hopefully, may be followed for a time, at least our lifetimes, until the country degenerates again and our great-great-grandkids have to rally for their own "Founding Father."

The best man for any position of power is the one who doesn't want the power.

Dr.Paul has shown us through example

what we should be doing. He has picked the smartest way to run and that's through the Repubs. If he had thought an independent run would have brought forth more fruit, we'd be doing that.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

YouTube search Paul on Maddow Show

or go to her network site and se if you can pull up video archives. Paul states on a program that there is need for a third party.

Do you think you've made a good point there?

He stated that because with the current two party system, there is nothing but corruption. That doesn't men that the third party hasn't been an utter failure up to now.

When you have dirty clothes, you wash them. That's the smartest way. That is what's going on right now. We're scrubbing the RNC clean by replacing the people in it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the intelligence in that plan.

We cut through decades of attempts to co-opt us by co-opting them for a change.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

Ron Paul, the liberty movement, and "third parties".

Everything that Mr. Slovo says in his post is quite true. We ARE a highly decentralized movement, and attempting to impose, or even suggest, any sort of centralized "command and control" would indeed be like 'herding cats'.

The additional point is that even cats have a more-or-less common behavioral or goal denominator, i.e. mating, seeking food, defending territory, or similar behavior, whereas libertarians have all joined the Ron Paul movenent here for different, and individual reasons.

Having acknowledged this, what is the point of third-party (or other) activism? Where does the DP, and other such websites come in? Websites and blogs like this serve as necessary fora for discussion, debate, and also our (sometimes heated) disagreements regarding tactics and strategy...

How do we get from slavery to freedom as rapidly and humanely as possible?

We are all in uncharted territory here; we are trying to save a country,perhaps a world, FROM ITSELF, largely through more-or-less democratic and legal means. How do we grow, and wage, a revolution that will hopefully be more than just a change of oppressors? How do we navigate our way toward the kind of country that we wish to have, while our adversaries are committed to a "rule or ruin" policy of throwing our society and economy into chaos, on an immense if not a worldwide scale, to maintain their malignant and poisonous misrule?

These and other questions must be ASKED, and they must be answered, and reflected upon, by people from as many perspectives as possible, while we do what we can to survive the coming times as prosperously and humanely as possible.

The DP, and other Ron Paul friendly sites and blogs, are excellent places to hold such discussions. We all have to have some idea about what to do if Ron Paul beocmes the next President of the United States (and the REAL WORK begins), what to do if he wins the nomination--to everybody else's surprise, if not horror--and go on from there, or even if the disreputable and corrupt bankster buttpuppets,O'bomber and Mitt-wit,win their respective nominations and work to ocntinue on an expressway straight to hell.

We WON'T DISAPPEAR!! We are here, we are growing rapidly, and we will make a mighty impact in the coming years. But there are a great many questions which need to be answered for the likelihood of our cuccess to be optimized, and for the Ron Paul R3voLution to win!

PEACE AND FREEDOM!!

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is not to be attacked successfully, it is to be defended badly". F. Bastiat

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, finally they attack you, and then you win"! Mohandas Gandhi

The territory is not uncharted. Others have tried.

If we succeed, THEN we will have gone where no one has before.

We will be the first to save our country without destroying it via war first.

DON'T MISS THIS!

You make your point very well. My question is why do we get a sense of contention and hostility, to those of us who support you?

Let me explain briefly. We who advocate a concurrent strategy of third party, also were Republican delegates. We go back as far as 2008 also. We consider ourselves brothers. I will be at our state convention with banners for Ron Paul. My own daughters will be delegates. Yet you think we left you. You have made an irrational conclusion-if you have.

Rather, I think some are too loyal to Republicanism. Please do not misunderstand the gravity of this issue. We must not under-estimate our adversary and his strength, nor his title. Please read my DP posting "PRINCE OF DARKNESS" or "SPIRIT OF DARKNESS". This is a spiritual battle. The party could be beyond repair. If we lose at the party level, we must not lose at the national level. It is our constitution (our nation) that we must be loyal to ultimately.

In any case, a third party would exert tremendous pressure at a brokered convention. Ironically, this perceived threat could be the leverage needed to persuade the delegates to at least incorporate Dr. Paul on the nomination ticket.

As it presently stands, what reason do the other factions have?

I suggest that the Ron Paul movement needs to coalesce behind a two tier strategy. We need to support and encourage each other.

You could help us by signing the third party petition at: rp2012.org. Also watch the breaking movie "SPOILER How A Third Political Party Could Win" SpoilerUSA.org, also available on u-tube.

reedr3v's picture

Thoughtful OP and comment thread so far

.