-88 votes

Bound delegates cannot abstain

I'm very bummed but it appears bound delegates cannot abstain. These are the CA rules:

Each delegate to the Republican National Convention shall use his or her best efforts at the convention for the party's presidential nominee candidate from California to whom the delegate has pledged support until the person is nominated for the office of President of the United States by the convention, receives less than 10 percent of the votes for nomination by the convention, releases the delegate from his or her obligation, or until two convention nominating ballots have been taken. Thereafter, each delegate shall be free to vote as he or she chooses.... [
California Elections Code Section 6461.(c)]

http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P12/CA-R

It seems to me that abstaining would not be using his or her best efforts at the convention for the party's presidential nominee candidate from California to whom the delegate has pledged support.

I presume the rules are about the same in other states with bound delegates.

Oh well. I was hoping enough of Romney's bound delegates would be stealth Paul delegates who would abstain on the first ballot to keep him from getting a majority.

Update with wording from other states from Shazad:

Arizona:

Each delegate to the national convention shall use his best efforts at the convention for the party's presidential nominee candidate who received the greatest number of votes in the presidential preference election ... until the candidate releases the delegate ... withdraws from the race or until one convention nominating ballot .... [Arizona Revised Statutes 16-243]

Mississippi:

The delegates are bound to the candidate entitled to their vote until released.

Massachusetts:

Each nominee for election as a pledged Congressional District delegate or alternate delegate shall express a commitment to a qualifying Presidential candidate and agree to be bound to vote for that candidate on the first such roll-call unless released by such candidate, as required by law.
.....
If there is a roll call vote for President at the Convention, all delegates and alternate delegates whose selection is made subject by the Plan to qualifying Presidential Primary Candidates defined by Section 4.2 of the Plan, shall vote on the first such roll call for that presidential candidate unless released by such candidate. (G.L. c.53, §70I)

Texas:

b. Length of Commitment: A person who is elected as a delegate or alternate to the National Convention on the slate of a and who is assigned to a Presidential candidate by the State Convention Chairman to represent that particular Presidential candidate at the National Convention and who does not resign from the position is pledged to support that Presidential candidate at the National Convention until the candidate is nominated or until the delegate or alternate is released from the pledges as follows:
1. First (1st) nomination convention ballot: delegate or alternate shall be released from the pledge only in the event of death, withdrawal, or by decision of the candidate. For the first ballot taken at the National Convention to determine the nominee of the Republican Party for the office of President of the United States, the totals of the votes of the members of the Texas delegation shall be announced as they would have been if the individual delegates had been awarded to or designated for the respective candidates for such office on the Texas General Primary ballot in accordance with the statewide result of the of the voting for such candidates. No poll of the members of the delegation shall be taken for the announcement of the vote.
2. Second (2nd) nomination convention ballot: delegate or alternate may be released from the pledge by decision of the candidate;
3. Third (3rd) nominating convention ballot: delegate or alternate shall be released from the pledge if the candidate has failed to receive twenty percent (20%) or more of the total vote cast on the preceding ballot; or by the decision of the candidate;
4. Fourth (4th) and subsequent nominating convention ballots: delegates and alternates are released from any pledge.

New Jersey:

"The Delegate understands that he/she is bound by the results of the June 5th primary and must vote for [presidential candidate's name] on the first ballot at the national convention unless that candidate publicly announces that he/she no longer seeks the nomination." [Primary Election Petition to the Republican National Convention]

This is just a sampling, but every state is different. In some states it says explicitly that the delegate must/shall/is required to vote FOR the candidate. There may be some where it just says "cannot vote for anyone besides the candidate", though I haven't found it yet. Such an interpretation may be implied by some but in others it does explicitly state who the delegate must vote FOR, and not just who they can't vote AGAINST. In some states it mentions using your best efforts to support the candidate. Some states don't bind at all. Some states bind through one ballot, some through 2, some for all ballots. There may be some where it would be acceptable to abstain, but in others there would be penalties and the abstention might not even take effect.

Oregon Rules (Submitted by Micah_6_8 on Fri, 04/27/2012 - 01:50.)

From the Oregon Republican Party bylaws, Section XVII, Section B (http://www.oregonrepublicanparty.org/sites/default/files/ORP...):

Section B. Delegate Conduct at the Republican National Convention.
Candidates for delegate and alternate to the Republican National Convention must state which Presidential Preference Primary candidate they favor, and will be listed as running for one of the delegate positions assigned to that presidential candidate. Each person selected as a delegate or alternate shall sign a pledge that he/she shall vote at the National Convention for the candidate for the President of the United States he/she favors until the candidate is:
(1) nominated;
(2) receives less than 35% of the votes for nomination at the convention;
(3) releases the delegate from the pledge; or
15
(4) until two convention nominating ballots have been taken.
Should a delegate or alternate refuse to cast his/her vote in accordance with this pledge, as required by both the Bylaws of the Oregon Republican Party Central Committee and the Oregon Revised Statues, the Chairman of the Oregon delegation to the National Convention shall report to the convention floor that delegate’s vote in accordance with such laws and rules until such time as that delegate is released from his/her pledge.




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lol

Forget about abstaining. Just vote foe Dr. Paul.

According to explicit

According to explicit language in their rules, Republicans can’t bind delegates from a state to vote only for one candidate by a winner-take-all rule, for example, nor are they supposed to allow non-Republicans to vote in their contests.

Given the rebellious spirit within the Republican Party embodied by a tea party movement that demands respect for the Constitution, party leaders can’t just wish away departures from the rules. Indeed, the national convention in Tampa just might take us back to a different political era: one in which delegates act on their power to choose the nominee that they think best represents the Republican Party — even if that is someone other than the apparent winner through state primaries and caucuses.

And this:

As set out in the Rules of the Republican Party, delegates have the ability to vote according to the delegates’ preference, even if that is contrary to the outcome of each state’s primary. According to one source, the legal counsel for the Republican National Convention in 2008 stated: “[The] RNC does not recognize a state’s binding of national delegates, but considers each delegate a free agent who can vote for whoever they choose.” Thus, if a delegate were to challenge his or her ability to vote as a free agent, he or she would have grounds under Rule 38.

Ava Indiana

I think the Paul delegates

I think the Paul delegates should also come equipped with some lawyers of their own.

wolfe's picture

Nice...

Perhaps you should repost this as it's own post with links... Repeating that information as much as possible, as loud as possible, is a good thing.

Even if it is against the rules (which is debatable)...

...breaking them is not a crime to my knowledge. Worst case scenario the delegates that break rules are kicked out. That may seem awful to some, but it be more of an embarrassment to the establishment than to the Paul camp. Besides, if Romney does have the nomination wrapped up in theory, wouldn't being kicked out amount to a walk-out on the part of the Paul supporters? And if they walk out, is the convention still effective or relevant? Listen to this and tell me I am wrong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU2AvSwzuok&feature=related

Keimh3reg Peh2u Meg

This post was disproved

here
http://www.dailypaul.com/229408/yes-you-can-abstain

Don't FEED the TROLLS!!!

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
James Madison

They SHOULD NOT ABSTAIN.

THEY SHOULD STRAIGHT UP VOTE FOR RON PAUL - EVERY ROUND.

Show me in the RNC rules where a credentialed delegate is bound to vote for anyone once they hit the floor of the RNC convention. (Hint: it's not in there. Also, the RNC is not a law enforcement agency nor a state party.)

Not only is it not in there but the RNC rules have two safeguards protecting national delegates votes: 1) "the unit rule shall not be enforced" - that means that the delegation chair can not enforce a delegate's vote on a delegate. 2) If any delegate feels their vote was recorded in error they can ask the parliamentarian or secretary to change their recorded vote.

It is so important to have accurate information before you misinform others.

/agree. I had the same

/agree. I had the same thought when i read the rnc's rules.

Seems to me that if you're

Seems to me that if you're state allows you to abstain do so. The important thing is to know the national/state rules before going in.

wolfe's picture

(REPOSTED) You can do whatever you want...

This ISN'T an election. Not sure why people have such a hard time understanding that. There is NO legal recourse to whatever action you choose, outside of potential and an unlikely civil case.

You just need to check the rules so that it doesn't disqualify your later vote, impose financial penalty, etc. But I don't care if you are bound, and choose to vote otherwise. Depending on the rules, this may not do anything good (i.e. disqualify you entirely as a delegate, etc), but that is up to you to check if you are a delegate.

Stop worrying over it, check the rules, and ignore rules that do not harm your vote or your finances. The GOP ignores the rules, as they see fit because they understand the difference between an election and a nomination.

Never mind rules and laws. Is your word gold or fiat?

The word of a Ron Paul supporter should be GOLD.

If you pledge to support Mitt Romney, without the intent to do so, your word is fiat.

If you're willing to counterfeit your word, you have no place in the revolution.


"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."

Minarchism
track

If the RNC rules do not bind

a delegate to a candidate then how is that breaking the rules?

Even Ronald Reagan encouraged some of his delegates to abstain from voting for Gerald Ford.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1842&dat=19760721&id=z...

What do rules have to do with your word?

If someone asks you for a favor, are you going to say "yes" even though you know you won't do it because there are no "rules" against it?


"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."

Minarchism
track

As usual...

your analogy and attempt at logic is completely flawed and make absolutely no sense.
Learn about the delegate process before you spew your venom on here again.

wolfe's picture

What about your loyalty to the Constitution ....

Shouldn't that come first?

I am no fan of the Constitution but for those with loyalty to it (most/many RP supporters), especially those who have at some point taken an oath of office to defend the Constitution, shouldn't they do everything in their power to do so?

Or is party loyalty more important to you?

My bank calls me up and tells me, "Don't you want to do the right thing and pay, even though we can't figure out how to foreclose?". No, because the bank would take every opportunity to destroy me if they could. And someone will take the loss. Why should it be me? The bank is the one that bargained risk for money, and now they don't like the fact that their risk failed. These "emotional" pleas to loyalty and your word, and your honor are mechanisms used to control you.

The GOP binds us with rules and forced loyalty oaths, and we are bad people for not adhering to those FORCED oaths?

Ridiculous. You are a bad person for expecting people to live in artificial chains of loyalty to an entity that has never been loyal to them.

Loyalty, much like trust is earned, not demanded or coerced. If the loyalty had been earned, this discussion wouldn't even be taking place.

To all delegates: Even if it disqualifies you from being a delegate next cycle, vote RP or abstain, whichever you can get away with.

If there are $ fines

then we will have chip ins for the guys who can prove that!
I doubt anyone will have jail time and IF then I hope the Veterans will have another march!

paceme's picture

A rule is not a rule

if it can't be enforced. On moral grounds, my "best effort" "shall" be to vote for my bound candidate unless that candidate has disqualified himself in my mind through foul play. If there's no penalty, then there's no rule. If there is a penalty, fine. I'd pay $10,000 to get to vote for Ron Paul and spend a month in jail if it meant he would be nominated President.

Dozens, sometimes hundreds, of delegates abstain every national convention. If I have any free agency, I'm not going to vote for Mitt Romney. If they have to put a gun to my head, then they've already lost.

NOBP 2012

faithless votes

Since the founding of the Electoral College, there have been 156 faithless Electors. 71 of these votes were changed because the original candidate died before the day on which the Electoral College cast their votes. Three of the votes were not cast at all as three Electors chose to abstain from casting their Electoral vote for any candidate. The other 82 Electoral votes were changed on the personal initiative of the Elector.

Sometimes Electors change their votes in large groups, such as when 23 Virginia Electors acted together in 1836. Many times, however, these Electors stood alone in their decision. As of the 2000 election, no Elector has changed the outcome of an election by voting against their party’s designated candidate.

Despite these 156 faithless votes, and a Supreme Court ruling allowing states to empower political parties to require formal pledges from Presidential Electors (Ray v Blair, 343 US 214), 21 states still do not require their members of the Electoral College to vote for their party's designated candidate.

The 24 states that do have requirements issue a small variety of rarely enforced punishments for faithless Electors, including fines and misdemeanors.

http://archive.fairvote.org/e_college/faithless.htm

National Convention vs. Electoral College

One nominates the party candidate for the general election and the other submits votes for the President after the general election.

They are two different things completely.

AZ add'l info

Relevant related statute:

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/1...

Up to $500 and 30 days in the hoosegow. Fair exchange for 1 less vote for Romney? Fair exchange for having an HONEST MAN in the White House? What part does Civil Disobedience USUALLY play in averting TYRANNY?

In addition - GOP Organizer Joe Abate stated this has never been challenged:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE__CvM7-_g&list=UU7ARbQomPHv...

FYI

Ed in Phoenix

(p.s. ...and if I get this post printed and shoved in my face by my LD Chairman, I swear by ALL THAT I CONSIDER DEAR that there will be HELL TO PAY! Be Advised all ye Trolls! - Ed)

Rights are like muscles; you must exercise them to keep them fit, or they will atrophy and die.

It's BS

Who's going to bring the charge? What judge will convict when they know they'll lose on appeal under 1st amendment?

No one and none. So, don't wring your hands over it.

Where are the National Convention rules?

I think the more pertinent question is where in the rules at the National Convention (where the delegates will actually be voting) does it say it enforces state rules/policicies/etc? I would think the national convention has no jurisdiction over such matters and can only accept the vote as given at the convention. It would be up to the state to deal with the individual afterwards.

If you've never read the Protocols,

they will use our liberalism and fear of breaking rules against us. They count on it. This is in the first few paragraphs. They brand us as savage, stupid sheep that need to be ruled over by force.

They vow to "End Liberty." Ron Paul stands in direct opposition to their plans. So go ahead, play their game if you want, and play by the rules. But if you vote for Mitt Romney at any time, you have no part in the Revolution.

John F

Thank you John for reminding us

of this plan laid out at the First HERZL Zionist Conference
August 29-31, 1897 - First Zionist Congress,Basel Switzerland.
This was the agenda given to the private list of attendees made up of the wealthiest jews in the world
....

Preface
Introduction
Who are the Elders?
Protocol I The Basic Doctrine
Protocol II Economic Wars
Protocol III Methods of Conquest
Protocol IV Materialism Replaces Religion
Protocol V Despotism and Modern Progress
Protocol VI Take-Over Technique
Protocol VII World-Wide Wars
Protocol VIII Provisional Government
Protocol IX Re-education
Protocol X Preparing for Power
Protocol XI The Totalitarian State
Protocol XII Control of the Press
Protocol XIII Distractions
Protocol XIV Assault on Religion
Protocol XV Ruthless Suppression
Protocol XVI Brainwashing
Protocol XVII Abuse of Authority
Protocol XVIII Arrest of Opponents
Protocol XIX Rulers and People
Protocol XX Financial Programme
Protocol XXI Loans and Credit
Protocol XXII Power of Gold
Protocol XXIII Instilling Obedience
Protocol XXIV Qualities of the Ruler

Back to Table of Contents/
(Translated by Victor E. Marsden)

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion1.htm

...
zionism id far older
see HERE:

http://jewishhistory.org.il/history.php?search=zionist

.

Hmm...

...do you really have to drag the anti-Israel stuff in here? It's a major distraction and turn-off isn't it? Do you see Dr. Paul going around spouting about Protocols? Why should we do that here at this juncture? Seems like there is a better time and/or place for this...

Voting for Mitt Romney is one thing

Voting for Mitt Romney is one thing, but lying, committing fraud, and breaking the law is quite another. Agreeing to vote for Mitt Romney, even though you don't intend to actually do it, is at least as bad, and anyone who does that also has no place in the Revolution.

At the root of many societal problems is the self-righteous arrogance which comes from a sense of being on the "right" side and "them" being wrong. Much evil in the world has been justified by this kind of thinking, and justifying lying, committing fraud and breaking the law - doing just about anything required - to get Ron Paul nominated and elected is exactly that. It's also the opposite of what Ron Paul stands for and what libertarianism means.

Saying you agree to do something (entering a contract), and then not doing it, especially if you intended to not do it even when you agreed to do it, is the definition of fraud, and it is a clear breach of the non-aggression principle that is the cornerstone of libertarianism.

Don't do it. It won't work, and it will only reflect poorly on you and the revolution.


"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."

Minarchism
track

You need to separate...

...stealth delegates who would follow their pledge to Romney within the scope defined by the rules (and then vote for Dr. Paul once freed from the pledge on the 3rd ballot or whatever) from stealth delegates who are intending to break their pledge from the get-go. You also need to differentiate between what 'pledge' means within in each state, rather than conflating the California rules to apply to everyone else.

You are not taking a blood oath to vote for Romney on the umpteenth ballot at the convention are you? That is over and beyond what 'pledge' means in this case. You can honestly fully intend to carry out your pledge within the rules and then vote for Dr. Paul once those same rules allow you to.

AND if the delegates at the RNC have the right to change the rules prior to any ballots being voted on, and as a result all or some delegates are unbound, the pledge will no longer apply. I think you're getting hung up on the 'best effort' phrase in your particular instance of California rules. Don't try to force that hang-up on other states where there is no such phrase.

Edit: I just went and re-read the California rules...it only says 'best efforts....UNTIL' one of the conditions is met (emphasis mine). Some of those conditions are being freed from the pledge; not just seeing the candidate nominated. Even in California, it is completely honest to pledge to follow these rules and vote for Romney until you are freed, and then vote for Paul. There is no dishonesty involved.

Of course

If a stealth delegate is actually planning to vote for Romney as pledged, there is no issue.


"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."

Minarchism
track

I think you have a weak conscience.

Strictly adhering to rules for the sake of rules proves that. It is the larger objective that is important. All of this is a little suspicious to me.

John F

Simply Put - A "Bound" Or "Pledged" Delegate Is Comparable To

A Politician Who Makes A Promise To Vote A Particular Platform Once Elected To Office...Essentially a campaign promise... In the end you cannot force a delegate to vote one way or another whether it's first ballot, second ballot, whatever ballot. Your Vote=Your Right. It's called VOTING RIGHTS!!! As delegates we simply are exercising our voting rights. Also the Bill Of Rights addresses the issue of binding and supersedes the election code, see below:

The Fifteenth Amendment (Amendment XV) to the United States Constitution prohibits each government in the United States from denying a citizen the right to vote based on that citizen's "race, color, or previous condition of servitude" (for example, slavery). It was ratified on February 3, 1870.

servitude
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: slavery
Synonyms: bondage, bonds, chains, confinement, enslavement, obedience, peonage, serfdom, serfhood, subjection, subjugation, thrall, thralldom, vassalage, yoke

pledge
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: sign of good faith
Synonyms: bail, bond, collateral, deposit, earnest, gage, guarantee, guaranty, pawn, security, surety, token, warrant, warranty
pledge

bound
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: obligated; destined
Synonyms: apprenticed, articled, bent, bounden, certain, coerced, compelled, constrained, contracted, doomed, driven, duty-bound, enslaved, fated, firm, forced, having no alternative, impelled, indentured, intent, made, necessitated, obligated, obliged, pledged, pressed, required, restrained, sure, under compulsion, under necessity, urged

According to the Bill Of Rights "Bounding" or "Pledging" to effectively limit voting Is Unconstitutional and therefore Unlawful and Unenforceable or Null And Void if written into the election code or any other code...

-LibertyG ... 2 Corinthians 2:16-17 "To some we are a scent of death leading to death, but to others, a scent of life leading to life. And who is competent for this? For we are not like the many who make a trade(for profit) but as those with sincerity...