-88 votes

Bound delegates cannot abstain

I'm very bummed but it appears bound delegates cannot abstain. These are the CA rules:

Each delegate to the Republican National Convention shall use his or her best efforts at the convention for the party's presidential nominee candidate from California to whom the delegate has pledged support until the person is nominated for the office of President of the United States by the convention, receives less than 10 percent of the votes for nomination by the convention, releases the delegate from his or her obligation, or until two convention nominating ballots have been taken. Thereafter, each delegate shall be free to vote as he or she chooses.... [
California Elections Code Section 6461.(c)]

http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P12/CA-R

It seems to me that abstaining would not be using his or her best efforts at the convention for the party's presidential nominee candidate from California to whom the delegate has pledged support.

I presume the rules are about the same in other states with bound delegates.

Oh well. I was hoping enough of Romney's bound delegates would be stealth Paul delegates who would abstain on the first ballot to keep him from getting a majority.

Update with wording from other states from Shazad:

Arizona:

Each delegate to the national convention shall use his best efforts at the convention for the party's presidential nominee candidate who received the greatest number of votes in the presidential preference election ... until the candidate releases the delegate ... withdraws from the race or until one convention nominating ballot .... [Arizona Revised Statutes 16-243]

Mississippi:

The delegates are bound to the candidate entitled to their vote until released.

Massachusetts:

Each nominee for election as a pledged Congressional District delegate or alternate delegate shall express a commitment to a qualifying Presidential candidate and agree to be bound to vote for that candidate on the first such roll-call unless released by such candidate, as required by law.
.....
If there is a roll call vote for President at the Convention, all delegates and alternate delegates whose selection is made subject by the Plan to qualifying Presidential Primary Candidates defined by Section 4.2 of the Plan, shall vote on the first such roll call for that presidential candidate unless released by such candidate. (G.L. c.53, §70I)

Texas:

b. Length of Commitment: A person who is elected as a delegate or alternate to the National Convention on the slate of a and who is assigned to a Presidential candidate by the State Convention Chairman to represent that particular Presidential candidate at the National Convention and who does not resign from the position is pledged to support that Presidential candidate at the National Convention until the candidate is nominated or until the delegate or alternate is released from the pledges as follows:
1. First (1st) nomination convention ballot: delegate or alternate shall be released from the pledge only in the event of death, withdrawal, or by decision of the candidate. For the first ballot taken at the National Convention to determine the nominee of the Republican Party for the office of President of the United States, the totals of the votes of the members of the Texas delegation shall be announced as they would have been if the individual delegates had been awarded to or designated for the respective candidates for such office on the Texas General Primary ballot in accordance with the statewide result of the of the voting for such candidates. No poll of the members of the delegation shall be taken for the announcement of the vote.
2. Second (2nd) nomination convention ballot: delegate or alternate may be released from the pledge by decision of the candidate;
3. Third (3rd) nominating convention ballot: delegate or alternate shall be released from the pledge if the candidate has failed to receive twenty percent (20%) or more of the total vote cast on the preceding ballot; or by the decision of the candidate;
4. Fourth (4th) and subsequent nominating convention ballots: delegates and alternates are released from any pledge.

New Jersey:

"The Delegate understands that he/she is bound by the results of the June 5th primary and must vote for [presidential candidate's name] on the first ballot at the national convention unless that candidate publicly announces that he/she no longer seeks the nomination." [Primary Election Petition to the Republican National Convention]

This is just a sampling, but every state is different. In some states it says explicitly that the delegate must/shall/is required to vote FOR the candidate. There may be some where it just says "cannot vote for anyone besides the candidate", though I haven't found it yet. Such an interpretation may be implied by some but in others it does explicitly state who the delegate must vote FOR, and not just who they can't vote AGAINST. In some states it mentions using your best efforts to support the candidate. Some states don't bind at all. Some states bind through one ballot, some through 2, some for all ballots. There may be some where it would be acceptable to abstain, but in others there would be penalties and the abstention might not even take effect.

Oregon Rules (Submitted by Micah_6_8 on Fri, 04/27/2012 - 01:50.)

From the Oregon Republican Party bylaws, Section XVII, Section B (http://www.oregonrepublicanparty.org/sites/default/files/ORP...):

Section B. Delegate Conduct at the Republican National Convention.
Candidates for delegate and alternate to the Republican National Convention must state which Presidential Preference Primary candidate they favor, and will be listed as running for one of the delegate positions assigned to that presidential candidate. Each person selected as a delegate or alternate shall sign a pledge that he/she shall vote at the National Convention for the candidate for the President of the United States he/she favors until the candidate is:
(1) nominated;
(2) receives less than 35% of the votes for nomination at the convention;
(3) releases the delegate from the pledge; or
15
(4) until two convention nominating ballots have been taken.
Should a delegate or alternate refuse to cast his/her vote in accordance with this pledge, as required by both the Bylaws of the Oregon Republican Party Central Committee and the Oregon Revised Statues, the Chairman of the Oregon delegation to the National Convention shall report to the convention floor that delegate’s vote in accordance with such laws and rules until such time as that delegate is released from his/her pledge.

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No stealth?

So no steal delegates, right?


"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."

Minarchism
track

Romney would have to pick me

Romney would have to select me and then I would go to Tampa and vote for Ron Paul...

The woman Romney selected from my RCC says her trip and hotle are covered.

Put Me In Jail !

Amendment 13.

Neither slavery or involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted , SHALL EXIST WITHIN THE UNITED STATES, or anyplace subject to their jurisdiction.

beesting

Here is another rule

6461. (a) The delegation of each candidate shall be composed as
follows:
(1) Seventy-eight percent of the delegation, or the nearest whole
number thereto which provides for a total number of district
delegates equal to at least three times the number of congressional
districts within the state, shall be composed of three delegates
selected for each congressional district.
(2) The remainder of the delegation shall be composed of delegates
selected at large from throughout the state.
The names of the persons chosen as delegates shall be submitted to
the Secretary of State, by the candidate or his or her designee
, no
later than 30 days before the presidential primary election for
certification.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=elec&g...

So, presuming Romney wins in CA, the names of the persons he chooses as delegates, people pledged to support Romney at the convention, submitted 30 days prior to the primary, will be the delegates coming from CA. None of the people Ron Paul or any other candidate chooses will be delegates - it's "winner take all" indeed.

So the plan is for significant numbers to falsely pledge support for Romney so as to be selected as Romney delegates, then go to Tampa, and, contrary to the pledge, abstain from voting on the first ballot, hope there is a second one, abstain on that one too, and finally vote for Ron Paul on the third?

How is this not fraud and fundamentally contrary to the very principles espoused by libertarians in general and Ron Paul in particular?


"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."

Minarchism
track

If your pledge is to support Romney...

...and you intend to do so until unbound, then that's not a false pledge if your intent is to go with Dr. Paul when you are indeed unbound. As far as Oregon goes, it sounds like they don't really care what you do as a delegate until you are unbound, because the chair of the state delegation will only report your vote as pledged, even if you abstain or vote for the man on the moon. Now if the state chair rebelled against that...not sure what the consequence would be. I'm a bit leery of violating Oregon statutes, so not sure that would be ok.

This is not winning

If your pledge is to support Romney...
...and you intend to do so until unbound, then that's not a false pledge if your intent is to go with Dr. Paul when you are indeed unbound.

In order to be a delegate, what you pledge to do until unbound is "use [your] best efforts at the convention for [Romney]".

If you abstain on a ballot in which Romney is a choice, you are not using your best efforts for Romney and are therefore in violation of your pledge, and the law. Not to mention that you lied and probably committed fraud when you said you would support Romney in order to be a delegate.

This is not winning. This is going against everything we stand for.


"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."

Minarchism
track

I've never understood how the

I've never understood how the rules of a private political party can somehow equal "the law".

Scary, isn't it?

This is why caucuses (funded and conducted by the party) are more in accord with Liberty Movement principles than primaries (funded and conducted by the state). When a state like California pays for a GOP primary, it feels entitled to put rules concerning a delegate's voting behavior at the National Convention into its legal code, so that if you break the rules, you are breaking state law.

He who pays the piper, calls the tune.

A Constitutional, Christian conservative who voted for Ron and stands with Rand

Through contracts,,,

"Obligation of contracts" as contained in the U.S Constitution. Marshall defined “obligation of contract” as “the law which binds the parties to perform their agreement;”.

A political party is a set of contracts between private invididuals and groups and govts...

.
~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

I'm just saying...

...it's better to have a Ron Paul supporter with the potential for becoming unbound and voting for Paul than to have a Romney true believer who will still vote for Romney when unbound. I'm not saying to abstain if your state is specifically forbidding that (unless the rules are changed legitimately before the ballots, as some are suggesting can happen).

Yeah, but dishonesty is the only way in

Yeah, but dishonesty is the only way to become a Romney delegate in the first place - you would have to be dishonest and claim support for Romney.

The ends does not justify the means.


"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."

Minarchism
track

It's not dishonest to state...

...support for Romney as defined in the rules. You aren't required to pledge whom you would support when unbound, right? In every respect that the rules require you to support Romney, you can honestly say you will do so. The rules themselves free you up from that pledge on the third ballot, etc. The rules aren't asking you to pledge what you would do in that circumstance.

It's like agreeing that you owe someone some money of a certain amount. You can honestly agree to support paying the debt up to the agreed amount. If there was some rule that let you off the hook of the remaining balance if you paid a certain amount within a certain time, then it doesn't mean you were dishonest in your intent to pay the full amount, before that exception went into effect. It's all about the scope of your pledge according to the rules. You aren't signing your life away to Romney for eternity.

We're probably speaking past each other...me from an Oregonian perspective where there's more leeway, you from a Californian perspective where things are chained down more by the candidate ahead of time?

Oh yes they do.

I'd do far "worse" to right my country's wrong. Worse in the eyes of neocons of course.

Remember that the Revolution was backed by only 1/3 of the population. The other 2/3 were similar to you.. On their high horse, loyal to the tyrannical king or just plain too scared to seize what they were born with as Free Men.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

It's not working Romney licker.

We're abstaining. Deal with it.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

Paul supporters won't be Romney delegates in the 1st place in CA

and that's one of the points of this post. The Romney campaign is going to hand pick its delegates in California (and probably already has), and you can be assured that they will be die hard Romney supporters, not stealth Paul supporters. If Romney wins that state and all of the congressional districts, then his die hard delegates go to the convention. If Paul wins, his die hards go instead.

I havn't seen

100 die hard Romney supporters, do they even exist?

Aren't the delegates elected...

...at the district conventions in California, which are in turn comprised of local precinct committee members elected by each precinct? If so, then the grassroots Ron Paul supporters can flood the district conventions and ensure their pick of delegates go in the slots for Romney. Am I wrong?

not in California

At least, not based on what was posted above and what is in their rules. There don't appear to be any district conventions. It says that the candidates pick their own delegates and submit them. So Romney has surely picked people in each CD in California, a long with a bunch of at-large delegates. Ron Paul has certainly done the same. The winner gets their own guys as delegated.

And you're wrong.

We WILL have shadow delegates of Romney as well as Santorum AND Gingrich.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

in California?

How are you going to pull that off?

Just sit back and watch.

We'll see you in Tampa fella.

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=qo8CmO...
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

Then what is a stealth delegate?

Perhaps I misunderstood, but I thought the whole plan was to have significant numbers "stealth delegates" in place so as to abstain instead of voting for Romney in the first (and second in many states) ballots, to prevent him from having a majority.

Yes, Romney's campaign picks them, but if this has been planned for four years, I presume the plan was to do things to get picked in this process.

Otherwise, Romney gets all 50 delegates from Florida, all the CA votes, etc., and easily gets his majority.

I mean, if stealth bound Romney delegates who actually support Paul is not the plan, what is?


"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."

Minarchism
track

you're partially right

States have different rules for picking delegates. In some states, even those with primaries, the delegate counts may be bound by the popular vote but the actual flesh and blood delegates are chosen based on a series of caucuses and conventions. This is where the basic stealth delegate strategy comes in. Paul supporters want to show up to these events and get other Paul supporters picked as delegates, including as bound Romney delegates. Then, the hope is that they would abstain from voting. As we've been showing, there are different rules regarding that and regarding the level of binding that takes place. But regardless, this is part of the strategy.

However, in states where the candidates or state committees pick the delegates themselves, based on the results of the primaries, then there's little to no chance of getting stealth delegates in. These include states like California, New York, Connecticut, and Florida. If somehow Ron Paul supporters were able to infiltrate this group in any significant amount, that would be truly amazing.

Done

Thanks!


"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."

Minarchism
track

How many times do I have to repeat it

National rules trump state rules, National Rules allow delegates to abstain.

Your assertion is not persuasive

If you're talking about the unit rule, that was addressed below.

If you're talking about another rule, cite it.

In any case, the national rules are irrelevant to the contract each delegate has with the candidate to which he has pledged his support. We're not talking about silly state party rules here - ELECTIONS CODE
SECTION 6461 is part of the law in CA, and anyone who violates it is subject to be in violation of this law.


"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."

Minarchism
track

Here is the correct answer:

Before going to Tampa, get a doctor's prescription for medical marriagejuana.

Before the vote, make certain you are higher than a kite.

While you are higher than a kite, just look at the ballot.
You might forget to check the box on the ballot...making you
effectively an abstainer.

You have now "done your best" and you have your doctor's blessing.

Take heart.

SequoiaTrees4RonPaul

Or what they shut down the

Or what they shut down the convention ?

I'm pro-life...

... and my Christian conscience would allow me to vote for a pro-war, pro-torture, pro-assassination, pro-"humanitarian" bombing in oil countries candidate. Only in Communist countries are people forced to violate their Christian conscience. We are not quite there yet, are we?

Plano TX