15 votes

Important info about Ben Swann and delegate information he left out of the important discussion.

UPDATED : With all the downvoting, you folks deserve exactly what you get for not undertsanding the damn rules, good luck with that!

Ben was incorrect when he claimed I was not entirely correct regarding rule 38, Ben went further than what I corrected him on claiming I was incorrect about something I never even said. Perhaps it was not his intention, I give him the benefit of the doubt, I was in fact entirely correct about rule 38, nowhere in my posts did I state anything other than his argument about rule 38 was wrong and described in detail where he was incorrect. Just because he supports Ron Paul or doesn't support ron paul or just because he is in media doesn't make him correct. My argument was that the way they were explaining rule 38 was not a valib argument and this would have been a huge blow to the delegates taking his advice as gospel. Ben made clear in his story that I was correct about my explanation of rule 38.

Ben was also incorrect about what he claimed about Utah, while the UTAH GOP tried to allow their delegates to become unbound and vote for Mccain, the delegates voted that motion down. Also, Mccain did not win the primary in UTAH, Romney did; however, Mccain did win the vote against Obama in the general election with 62% but did not win the primary over Romney.

Many just don't understand the dynamics of convention rules and this is why they only get things half right. You must look at everything as a whole there are no shortcuts. These rules are confusing and for a reason, they only want GOP attorneys and insiders to understand them so they have complete control.

I am not trying to cause division nor attack Ben in any way, he is doing a great job and he is only human and will get things incorrect he doesn't understand fully.

I didn't want to post this info so early because we have many conventions left to finalize, this recent story has left me no choice.

The reason I was encouraging delegates to look at abstaining is very important.

# 1 : While the RNC does not recognize binding in any way of delegates at the RNC convention the States do recognize their rules and there could be consequences should a delegate go against party rules at the RNC convention.

# 2 : It is important that all delegates read their district/county AND state bylaws pertaining to the potential penalty that could be ensued if any should they break party rules. In some cases there is no penalty, in other cases the penalty could be fines of monetary consequence and worse being stripped of their delegate status for life. Now some will choose to accept the consequences while others may not be so willing or perhaps not be aware there is a consequence.

The delegates for Ron Paul are attempting to take over GOP positions in an attempt to reshape the GOP back to it's conservative and constitutional roots, if they only vote their concious without understanding the consequences that could be stowed upon them, they could lose the positions in power they have recently achieved, making all of their work for naught.

Should Ron Paul not obtain enough delegates to reach the required amount to be the GOP nominee and delegates vote hoping he gets the nomination and not knowing the consequence of just casting a vote because, they are not bound by RNC rules but are bound by state rules could be detrimental.

We can beat them with their own rules but only if the delegates follow the rules and UNDERSTAND THE RULES.

For the record, when it comes to delegate info and parliamentarian procedure I have not been incorrect. I am only posting to make sure everyone becomes educated and knows the rules instead of opinions. Don't even take my word for it, just read the bylaws and RNC call for yourselves, it is in black and white for all to see.

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Jerry Davis, one of the "Lawyers for RP" said;

In a conversation on RonPaulRadio.com, Jerry said those rules that both parties have included as a part of their bylaws which violate the Constitution are effectively null and void.

Yes, they are private parties, but the vote affects public office, and therefore, comes under the protection of that State's Constitution. State Law trumps Federal. However, most State Constitutions mirror that of the Federal one. And among the freedoms they guarantee is the right of an individual to vote as they see fit by strictly prohibiting any act of forcing or coercing a voter to do otherwise.
Those rules that bind voters to a particular candidate or nominee cannot be enforced, nor can any penalty for the same reason.

Finally! A sensible answer!

"Trust, but verify"
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same."
- Ronald Reagan

I noticed the confusion regarding the McCain/Romney

win in Utah, as well. But, the main point from Ben's report is that the RNC's own legal staff says we can vote for someone who isn't even on the ballot at all.

Neverquit is

living up to his handle.

I voted you up and I

I voted you up and I appreciate people trying to figure this out, please don't give up because of a few bad apples! You mention that you are risking something helping us, do you have some high position in the party? Some insider knowledge perhaps? Keep up the good work, MOST of us appreciate it!

My head is going to explode

Meanwhile...lets just keep fighting at these state conventions... And do EVERYTHING we can to try and win Texas and/or California

Forget about rule 38!

Instead, focus on getting a majority of delegates to the RNC and on Rule 32 suspension of rules. Search all of your state and county bylaws and make sure you read and understand them all. There shouldn't be anything that conflicts with using rule 32 to unbind delegates. WE MUST SHOW UP!

My question is

why do we care about the repercussions? It's a Paul presidency or disaster for this country. The long term has to take a back seat to an all out effort to get Paul elected. Our delegates are our front line in this revolution, and whatever the penalties are they will have fought the good fight to save our country. Vote Paul first round! Fight the establishment that's stolen our country from us with all the delegate power we have!

There are two sets of rules, but you cannot choose

There are two sets of rules, but you cannot choose which set to follow, the VENUE you are voting in takes precedence.

All States have their own rules, some similar, some not. None are laws, however. These are PRIVATE party elections and therefore you cannot be subject to monetary penalties.
Expulsion from the party, suspension of activities, yes ... but not charged with a civil liability unless it is expressly stated on a contract that you've signed.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter what a State's rules declare once you have reached the National Convention, the main Convention's rules supersede and overrule any before it. It must, or there would be far too many ways to undermine the National vote! You do see why that has to be, right?

As to interpretation of the rules; this is the only thing that has similarities to how our laws are interpreted ... with precedent from Case Law and rulings of Counsel. If what Ben read from is a true, verbatim document released by the RNC's own legal counsel, that is the ruling everyone must follow unless it is challenged.

And, remember, the entire body will review, debate and vote on what rules THIS convention will follow and abide by. Usually, this is merely a formality. However, given what's at stake, there may be rules which are thrown out by a strong majority vote.

Please, check my statements. If there is an error, show me where it is written.
Otherwise, let's all concentrate on taking advantage of this opportunity that, I am certain, God has deliberately put in our path.

"Trust, but verify"
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same."
- Ronald Reagan

Sounds Like a Job For Super-Alternates!

We have a pretty deep field, thankfully. I'd like to see all the alternates show up in case they're needed.

What do you think? http://consequeries.com/

We have to find a way on the first round.

They want us to abstain in the first round so they can disqualify us on the second round. We have to vote for Paul on the first round. We have 1 chance at this if we fail they will never give us another chance to vote for Paul. Paul has to have a majority on round 1. We have to pass a motion to unbind or to acknowledge the right to abstain.

I am terribly afraid that an abstained vote can be considered a forfeited position.

If Ron Paul wins on the first round then the RNC will try the rest of the night to find a way to reverse the vote but we will have legislative majority by then.
If we abstain on the first round and we fail to get the numbers we need for a majority the entire camp will be divided with no true majority yet. The RNC will be in control of the second round and we will be too intimidated to act as a unit.
I think Ben has the right idea. I also believe that the Paul Camp has been dropping bits of our play to Ben

Bump for discussion.

You said:
"If Ron Paul wins on the first round then the RNC will try the rest of the night to find a way to reverse the vote but we will have legislative majority by then."

Answer: I think one problem is that we don't know if we have the numbers to win on the first round. So abstaining for certain key individuals may be important, not for personal advancement or position, but for the movement as a whole. Sort of like the "chess game" analogy that another poster mentioned. In some cases we abstain, in others we vote.

You said:
"If we abstain on the first round and we fail to get the numbers we need for a majority the entire camp will be divided with no true majority yet. The RNC will be in control of the second round and we will be too intimidated to act as a unit."

Answer: You may have a point there. I would be interested if others weighed in on this.

Btw, I gave you a +1 to remove one of your downvotes so your points could be discussed. I have leaned toward abstaining in the past but this may partly depend where we are, delegate wise, come convention time in Tampa. We have to be aware of all of our options and the ramifications of choosing one versus the other.

"The RNC does NOT recognize a

"The RNC does NOT recognize a state's binding of national delegates, but considers each delegate a free agent who can vote for whoever they choose.

The national convention allows delegates to vote for the individual of their choice, regardless of whether the person's name is officially placed into nomination or not."

Jennifer Sheehan, Legal Counsel for the RNC.

3 minutes 15 seconds into Ben Swann's report...


Never be afraid to ask simple questions.

sorry zoo

looks like you didn't read the post.

no one is disputing the RNC's stance. however, the valid point that there are consequences at the state level remains.

Ooooh Consequences, Pfft.

Consequences? Who Cares!!

Think about the Consequences if they Dont!


Then that

requires research into the State level, and exactly what "they" the state bigwigs could "do" to "us". Better get cracking into those rules.

Will there be any

Will there be any consequences if Ron Paul wins?

THAT is the big question!

Never be afraid to ask simple questions.

sure there will! that's why we are here!

the point is still valid though =]

It's important for us to go into this convention...

fully informed so that we are aware of the consequences of our actions, whether they be major or insignificant. We may not agree with all of their conclusions but the resulting discussion is often, helpful, provided it remains positive and respectful.

Neverquit has made important contributions to our understanding of the delegate procesa and Robert's Rules of Order. This, in part, is what inspired me to create the Robert's Rules (Video Library).

I think ATruepatriot put it well when he said it's important to read between the lines as sometimes our egos get in the way. The tone of Neverquit's comments or posts may be brusque at times but he is trying to help. A DP user(I don't remember who) has a tagline that reads, "To disagree, one doesn't have to be disagreeable." That's a good motto for us all.

I give both Beth Swann and Neverquit due respect for their efforts.

sounds another moneybomb

For tose whom get fined. It is important to recognize if they will lose their privilidges for life but also important to find out if they will be permitted to vote in the following rounds.

"I'm right! I'm right!

Dude, of course you think you're right. You don't have to state it over and over again. It's more powerful to state your point and have it stand on it's own than say, "I wasn't incorrect" 10 times.

Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freeist
Check out my Freedom Blog! http://www.freeist.wordpress.com

@ Neverquit

I did read your original post and I appreciate that you were willing to look in to the matter further instead of takings Mr swanns word.. I have always enjoyed your post and know, more so now, that you are willing to research and find the truth.. you are absolutely correct in saying these rules are extremely hard to understand.. Ben swann is a wonderful journalist and is owed respect for looking In to your comment and reporting an even more in depth investigation .. I applaud you both for great work!! Thank you..

Ben's a hero

Neverquit's a zero.

What you're doing for us, my ass. lol

Patriot Cell #345,168
I don't respond to emails or pm's.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution, inevitable.

Most of you have no idea what

Most of you have no idea what I am risking doing what I am doing for all of you, after today I have decided I am not going to risk any further, it is pointless. You will do what you want and post incorrect information because it makes you feel good and is what you want to hear rhather than what the facts are that people need to hear.

Good luck folks, I have had enough of the slander and negative bull$shit, I went thorugh this last election and I am not doing it again, you are on your own, just figure it our for yourself. Peace out.

God bless you and your famalies.

don't get upset! you are

don't get upset! you are doing the right thing and I commend you for it =]

Enough of your nonsense....

Why don't you quit acting like a spoiled child and calm down. If you really are a Ron Paul supporter, I have no reason to believe you're not, then why don't you quit acting like a provocateur.

We all know that Cass Sunstien has little minions on their computers trying to disrupt forums that are liberty minded like the one we are on.

We have far more important things to do than to fight over a non-issue right now. When you are in a war or a game or competition, you don't sit around and try to bring the morale down.

You may say that you are not doing this but let me help you out with that one, yes you are, you are bringing my morale down so please knock it off and get back up in line with the rest of us and find something to say that will help us win this fight against these International Banksters.

Hey don't quit...

Sharing your knowledge man. Look at what you have done? Right on one point or wrong on another, doesn't matter, you have started a national debate that might come to a resolution in results for the better. Besides, Neverquit?

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

Ok folks, I have to give credit where credit is due here

If it had not been for this gentleman prodding us to become delegates for the last two years, Ron Paul would not be where he is right now. He was expressing how important it is for so long we have forgotten his original words. The knowledge and drive for Ron Paul is in this man's heart and it would pay us some good to at least acknowledge his understanding of how this process really works. He really does have somewhat of an idea what he is talking about.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

Passion is good, but obsession is counterproductive.

His update reveals that his insights were obtained through tunnel vision. I agree that he deserves credit for contributing to the discussion, but his singular focus on one narrow literal interpretation is beginning to discredit him. With him, it's no longer about whether constraints on delegates, it's about convincing people that he is right.

The only truth is that he believes he is correct, as does everyone else who comments here. Everything he says is debatable. Everything is debatable. While 99% of people posting here are "debating" the issue, he is stuck on "I'm not incorrect."

I still love him.

It is important to read beteen the lines

and understand that his heart is truly in the right place. He has indeed over the last several months found control over his ego. That part was hurting him the most. Through his dedication to Ron Paul he has come to a bargain with himself to make the best of all opportunities availible to him and share what knowledge he can with us. I for one very much appreciate his battle within himself to do this for Ron Paul. The past is the past and he truly is on our side.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

Wow, please let up on the dead horse

You can vote for anyone that you want at the national convention, whether they are on the ballot or not.