15 votes

Important info about Ben Swann and delegate information he left out of the important discussion.

UPDATED : With all the downvoting, you folks deserve exactly what you get for not undertsanding the damn rules, good luck with that!

Ben was incorrect when he claimed I was not entirely correct regarding rule 38, Ben went further than what I corrected him on claiming I was incorrect about something I never even said. Perhaps it was not his intention, I give him the benefit of the doubt, I was in fact entirely correct about rule 38, nowhere in my posts did I state anything other than his argument about rule 38 was wrong and described in detail where he was incorrect. Just because he supports Ron Paul or doesn't support ron paul or just because he is in media doesn't make him correct. My argument was that the way they were explaining rule 38 was not a valib argument and this would have been a huge blow to the delegates taking his advice as gospel. Ben made clear in his story that I was correct about my explanation of rule 38.

Ben was also incorrect about what he claimed about Utah, while the UTAH GOP tried to allow their delegates to become unbound and vote for Mccain, the delegates voted that motion down. Also, Mccain did not win the primary in UTAH, Romney did; however, Mccain did win the vote against Obama in the general election with 62% but did not win the primary over Romney.

Many just don't understand the dynamics of convention rules and this is why they only get things half right. You must look at everything as a whole there are no shortcuts. These rules are confusing and for a reason, they only want GOP attorneys and insiders to understand them so they have complete control.

I am not trying to cause division nor attack Ben in any way, he is doing a great job and he is only human and will get things incorrect he doesn't understand fully.

I didn't want to post this info so early because we have many conventions left to finalize, this recent story has left me no choice.

The reason I was encouraging delegates to look at abstaining is very important.

# 1 : While the RNC does not recognize binding in any way of delegates at the RNC convention the States do recognize their rules and there could be consequences should a delegate go against party rules at the RNC convention.

# 2 : It is important that all delegates read their district/county AND state bylaws pertaining to the potential penalty that could be ensued if any should they break party rules. In some cases there is no penalty, in other cases the penalty could be fines of monetary consequence and worse being stripped of their delegate status for life. Now some will choose to accept the consequences while others may not be so willing or perhaps not be aware there is a consequence.

The delegates for Ron Paul are attempting to take over GOP positions in an attempt to reshape the GOP back to it's conservative and constitutional roots, if they only vote their concious without understanding the consequences that could be stowed upon them, they could lose the positions in power they have recently achieved, making all of their work for naught.

Should Ron Paul not obtain enough delegates to reach the required amount to be the GOP nominee and delegates vote hoping he gets the nomination and not knowing the consequence of just casting a vote because, they are not bound by RNC rules but are bound by state rules could be detrimental.

We can beat them with their own rules but only if the delegates follow the rules and UNDERSTAND THE RULES.

For the record, when it comes to delegate info and parliamentarian procedure I have not been incorrect. I am only posting to make sure everyone becomes educated and knows the rules instead of opinions. Don't even take my word for it, just read the bylaws and RNC call for yourselves, it is in black and white for all to see.




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This type of debate should

This type of debate should only encourage people to better understand the rules... so they can be more effectively broken (Dali Lama).

The most important thing we

The most important thing we need to do is change the narrative. It's up to us to get people to understand that abstaining is within the rules of the RNC. That should force a lot of state parties to reconsider or at least tepid to make moves on delegates that abstain. Look at NV and ME. As soon as the MSM picked up that the RNC was trying to strongarm RP supporters they paused for a sec and we won. Keep exposing that rule 38 is valid and eventually enough people will believe it that the state party's will have a harder time implementing their own policies. Just a thought. The more articles, maps, blogs we have about Ron Paul supporters abstaining from Romney, the more people will wonder why. It can only help in TX and CA.

Why would you abstain

instead of voting for Paul?

KEEP ON GOING. THIS IS NOT IMPORTANT FOR THE TIME BEING!

You can abstain but you need to live with the consequences whatever they are..

If we manage via abstaining a RP presidency for the price of being disqualified the next years..so be it.
Others are waiting in line.

Lets just keep going and some days before the convention we will know our numbers(or the campaign at least).
I suppose that all delegates will be known to the campaign prior to the convention!

Maybe we need 30 delegates to abstain. Then 30 will abstain for sure! What the hell?

------>Is anyone thinking that if only one delegate decides if Romney gets the nomination or not then we wont have ONE delegate who will abstain?<-------

This discussion is B.S. at this moment in time -> Better focus on the next primarys and conventions!

All this stuff around derails us. Instead of aquiring new voters and donations we think about all the rules that might not matter come tampa. Lets maximise our efforts and do our utmost and we are good to go..one way or the other..

I want to see Ben do a report on the Romney fraud and cheating

rather then a new rule discussion..

if we are makeing request.

I want to see Ben do a report on the 8.5 billion$ ponzi scheme Romney and his son tagg are being investigated for...

Just Curious

So at the precinct convention, you follow precinct rules. At the County or Congressional Convention, you follow the County/CON rules or bye law. Then at the State level, you follow the State Convention rules yes?

Need I say more?

Do you really think we care about the future slot we hold? The point is to save this country from the INSANITY of the last 100 yrs. Banning me from Politics is a tiny price to pay when measured aside what the founders of this country paid.

I am SELFLESS.. Not SELFISH..

I can assure you, if I get banned there will be other to fall in on my spot.

As for being banned, does it

As for being banned, does it really matter? I am curious what efforts will be made by a Paul presidency to reform our current two party platform. If Paul wins the White House, we could see the playing field leveled and broadened in scope. If anyone knows the difficulty of running third party and the real need for more viable choices in terms of candidates for the American voter, it is Ron Paul. In the next four to eight years there may be plenty of other more appealing alternatives to the GOP for those delegates it deems undesirable.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." Benjamin Franklin

Relevance

There are probably more Ron Paul supporters that are too young to vote than this campaign can imagine. They know Ron Paul is their only bright future. Getting them in here or involved somehow to learn the whole messy process of this messy GOP does nothing but good for the whole Revolution. The Romney GOP does nothing but kick them in the face and promise them war, death and destruction. When they pander, the stench is unbearable. Let us get Ron Paul in the White House for the children of this country. I will force my state to accept a write in and no party can stop me. It truly is Ron Paul or nobody at all.

Agreed. When pulling out of

Agreed. When pulling out of my driveway a week ago to attend my state convention, I waived goodbye to my wife and daughter of one year as I always do when leaving. It was then that I really understood why I was involving myself with a process that I have little faith in. The reason for hoping that people will understand the stakes and make sound decisions, was that little hand waving back.

So many children orphaned by these wars...

Ron Paul is the only glimmer of hope in this process today. Anyone with their eyes open will see that.

En route to the convention I finished the last chapter of the audio version of Liberty Defined.

Paraphrasing now as I have yet to order the book in ink form, Ron Paul closed his book with the comment that we are laying the foundation. Though we might not see return of liberty while on this earth, it will come. Beautiful thought...because it's true.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." Benjamin Franklin

Stop being so logical

;D

As far as I'm concerned,

The "vote for Ron Paul anyway" strategy was good news, but just as good as the "Romney delegates can abstain" news. What difference does it make? Either one shuts Romney down if we have enough delegates. Some of this is just splitting hairs on how we do it. I say everyone check with the campaign in the 4th quarter, and go from there.

Why abstain

instead of voting for Paul?

Guys and Gals, the man makes a good point

He is not arguing wither the RNC recognizes the State and County delegate by laws.

He is arguing that States, SD's, counties, Precincts etc, have all had conventions prior and have adopted certain bylaws with various penalties for breaking those by laws.

Now the issue at hand is that if we get to Tampa, have a massive uprising, Vote for Ron on Ballot 1 and dont get it ($hiT!), then dont get it on 2(WTF!!!) so on and so forth and end up losing somehow. (Depression)

But the issue then is, two fold, what we have done then is;

1st and most importantly: Lost
2nd and also important: We could have possibly alienated ourselves, and broken certain bylaws from our State and County, or Precinct, Senate District conventions (All the conventions prior)

The problem with that is, What are the penalties for breaking the bylaws? Some may be, zilch, but what if some say, "Your kicked out of the Private Club" or "Cannot become a delegate again" or "No delegate for 5 years" etc. That would seriously be incredibly negative for our campaign. Im all for believing, " well we are just going to take it over" but in reality THAT MIGHT NOT HAPPEN! and we have to be sure to cover our back side. to ensure that we do not, blow our shot, and then not have a chance/enough time for a reload. We have them on the ropes, we should take our shot, but it has to be a damn good shot, and if it misses, we need to be able to take another one, and quick bc then they know EXACTLY WHAT YOUR UP TO.

What we need to do is, go back, study our State, Senate District, County, Precinct, etc Convention Rules and Bylaws and identify what they are so we know the best way to move forward. We cannot wait on the campaign to do this for us, this is a central tennate in our movement, personal responsibility!

If you find out that, "oh i can be kicked out forever or 5 years" or whatever, let others know so you can coordinate and decide what is right for yall...

REMEMBER, THIS MOVEMENT IS NOT JUST ABOUT 2012, BUT BEYOND, 2014 is right around the corner and we can really take a lot of control in lower level leadership positions, but not if we are somehow in eligible.

this is in no way meant to, piss anyone off or make anyone think im some kinda Romney Shill, IM NOT!!

I care enough about this Campaign to not let a simple foolish mistake cost us, I want to continue moving forward as the r3VOLution who took over the party and Govt by their own rules. and in a civil and correct way, we do not want to fall on our own knife.

Please take this with the utmost respect, love and compassion. I do not know all the answers to the questions Ive posed and im sure there are many more scenarios that i did not cover, but we must ask these questions, to gain a better enlightenment.

For, Peace, Prosperity and Freedom

Don't stop believing

There are thousands of Paul supporters

ready to take over your delegate spot.

Stand up. Take the bullet.

SOMEBODY PLEASE BAN NEVERQUIT.

I'm getting sick of this.

Some see things as they are and say why,but i dream things that never were and say why not. Robert F. Kennedy

calm down

banned for what?

Short Fuse?

Just because someone is challenging the way many people here interpret the rules, it is not a bad thing. It just makes us look more into the rules and have a better understanding of them. Blacking out what NeverQuit has to say is just the same (if not worse) than the media blacking us out. He's on our side and trying to help!

He has done nothing to get banned.

Its as simple as my title states.

When injustice becomes law - rebellion becomes duty.

http://www.facebook.com/parishbenjamin

Spot on. Bear in mind that

Spot on. Bear in mind that we wouldn't be this far into dissecting this aspect of the nominating process were it not for his initial post about the situation. Where in the rules does it say that one can be banned for disagreeing with someone? Some days I feel as though individuals have predisposed ideas regarding what should and should not be discussed in this open forum, and that those who disagree with them ought to simply leave. Thus is the nature of man, I guess.

Double spot on.

It is for those very reasons you have mentioned that I have decide to give this post my most self esteemed up vote.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." Benjamin Franklin

Fear, fear, fear,

and afraid-ness! What is everyone so afraid of? As another poster said, the GOP is a private organization and the worst that could possibly be done is to kick you out of the party. Oh, woe!!

No legal action can be taken against any person for voting for Ron Paul. Period. Then what's all the fuss about? What is all of this fearmongering? Ben Swann, a responsible reporter with a whole team and a huge audience has openly announced the truth about this and we should rejoice!

You have to understand that this system was put in place for such a moment as this. The delegate process works in our favor because it is meant to counter the groupthink of the uninformed mob. It was established to make sure the BEST candidate is chosen. It's a "republican" institution, not a democratic one. Vote Ron Paul and let the chips fall...

John F

On One Point....NeverQuit Is Quite Right......

Neverquit is right on this point..........

""""""The delegates for Ron Paul are attempting to take over GOP positions in an attempt to reshape the GOP back to it's conservative and constitutional roots, if they only vote their concious without understanding the consequences that could be stowed upon them, they could lose the positions in power they have recently achieved, making all of their work for naught."""""""

States could have penalties for abstaining or voting for someone else other than the "official winner" if the delegate is "bound". For example...

I live in NJ. NJ delegates are bound. Let's say I go to the convention and I abstain or vote for Paul instead of Romney...assuming Romney wins the NJ Primary.

My delegate vote has to count. I can't be removed from the convention floor. However, the N.J. GOP could punish me with "Censure". The "Censure" would be that I would be "kicked out" of the NJ GOP....not sure if I would be kept out for years...or permanently. I'm pretty sure this is the penalty that NJ enforces.....I'm sure other states are different.

This is where Neverquit is correct. Let's say that I have joined the GOP on the local level....and that I have been attending meetings...events...etc....with the hope of taking the power back on a local or state level. Let's say I've been doing this for two years. If I abstain or vote for Paul on the 1st ballot....I won't have any problems at the convention.....but my plans for a long-term takeover on a local GOP level....would be ruined.....because I will be "censured" by the STATE GOP.

This is why the convention will be kind of like a chess match....and that communication with the delegates before and while the National Convention is taking place.... will be the key.

The Campaign will have to use their delegates like chess pieces. There will be "pawn" delegates....and "power" delegates. The "pawn" delegates will be the "expendable" delegates....meaning these will be the delegates who are just delegates and are NOT involved in the GOP on a local level trying to take over the GOP LONG-TERM. These "pawn" delegates will be the ones who will be used to abstain or vote for Paul on the first ballot.

The "power" delegates....those are delegates that you want to protect. These delegates are and have been for a while...involved in their local GOP...and have long-term goals. These delegates will NOT abstain or vote for Paul on the first ballot....the Paul campaign does not want to lose their long-term power. The "power" delegates will stayed bound...voting for the winner of their primary...on the 1st...or second...or third ballots....until they are "freed" from their obligation. "Power" delegates should only be "sacrificed" (abstaining or voting for Paul on 1st ballot).....if we are desperate...and don't have enough "pawn" delegates to keep Romney from hitting the magic number.(1,144 delegates)

This is how I believe it should and will play out on the Convention floor in Tampa.

Wouldn't you agree Never?

Your Strategy

I was banned from RonPaulTribute for asking the very question you just answered. Don't know why but I am so glad I came here and found the answer.Thanks you so much for putting this in writing. I agree this sounds like it could be a Chess game for many Ron Paul Delegates who are involved in the GOP and are the glue that keeps it from crumbling.

Sacrifice Yourself for Liberty!!!


Please, don't worry about the Censure .. because so much is at stake right now.

This is Ron Paul's one last chance to win. If he wins, then all the Wars will stop. All the Human Torture will stop. All The Bank Bailouts will stop. All the punishment of Whistleblowers will stop.

The whole soul of the Country will change for the better.

So, do not worry about being "kicked out of the GOP", because there are plenty of new Ron Paul supporters popping-up all the time that can take your place when that happens -- and you'll still retain the right-to-vote (as an Independent), and to send your friends or wife in your place as a local GOP rep (in your place).

But listen: NOBODY OTHER THAN YOU HAS THE DELEGATE POWER TO BLOCK THE ROMNEY CORONATION RIGHT NOW, AND GET RON PAUL ELECTED! So you must regard this as your most important task -- that overrides all other personal concerns right now.

Let's get Ron Paul elected first, and if that happens then the groundswell of this new movement will be so great that taking over the local GOP will be almost an inevitable direction and consequence anyway.



So, you get 'censured'

Someone else fills the void.

Is this about you, or the mission?

I can't comment on how NJ

I can't comment on how NJ would handle it because I have not read your bylaws, but in theory you just stated exactly what I was trying to point out. This is not black and white as to the strategy that needs to be imposed. Your chess analogy is a perfect conclusion as to the points I was attempting to make.

Hey Neverquit.........

I have no doubt that this "chess strategy" will take place on the convention floor in Tampa. Ron Paul is a smart man....he's no fool. He will have his plan in place. :)

So what are the delegates supposed to do?


Be specific....

Hey Liberty....

Read my post above...I'm pretty sure this how the RP campaign is going to use the delegates..... like chess pieces.