9 votes

Need intellectual-ammo to convert a die-hard Obama supporter.

Just met a friend of a friend who says his whole family are Obama supporters.
I asked him politely and gently why he thinks Obama is such a great president.
He was mostly vague, but he mentioned a few things:

- Economy
- Education
- Everyone should pay their fair share in taxes

Now, I can argue against these cases. But the more I talked to him the more I realized that I need to start from the very beginning (change his idea of what the role of gov't should be, the role of the Federal Reserve, the notion of Keynesian vs Free market economics....etc). In short, there's a lot cut out for me.

But one thing i need help with:
How should I argue on the point of "everybody paying their fair share"?
I COULD argue that Paul wants everyone to keep their income by 100%. But other than that im not so sure what else to say to convince a person who hasnt woken up, yet.

Please help as I'll be confronting him again this Thursday, over a few beers.
ps - He also did mention that he likes some of Paul's ideas (like no wars).

*** Update ***
He also mentioned the Paul Ryan budget proposal (he didnt like it).
He also mentioned how Obama couldnt do anything because of the Republicans in congress.

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tell him you hope obama will be president again

so we can bomb iran and run up more debt. tell him that you hope o wins so he can he can have the fed reserve print all our worries away.tell egocentric obama supporters that they are right! and explain why. also tell him that their should be a 50% income tax on everyone including him, and ask why he doesnt pay 50% tax on his own? reverse it on them

I actually have better luck with Obama supporters

than i do with Romney supporters on converting to Ron Paul. I always start with the wars because this is where we agree the most and it is easiest to point out Obama hypocracies and distance myself from the neoconservative base. All who supported the election of Obama should be disgusted with the fact that not only are we still in the mid east but we have started and agitated even more campaigns such as Syria, Uganda, Lybia, Pakistan and a covert war which has already started in Iran. The war in Iraq did not really end as we are spending as much money there as ever with an embassy as big as the vatican and 5000 armed contractors still holding down our military endeavors.

And then there is Guantanamo bay which not only still remains open, but it is now legal for the president to send American citizens there to be held indefinitely without trial.

After all of that is when I get to the proper roll of government. I begin by bringing up the point that government is not charity, it is by definition force. It is an institution of compulsion and coercion. I ask what "the fair share" really is and what percentage of an individual's income should be going to government. Then I ask what is really achieved by the money that is sent to Washington and how well it will actually be managed. Get into the fact that it is nearly impossible to hold a federal politician accountable for how he/she allocates the money we send them which is why we need to localize. To bring legislation issues back to the people that walk among our local communities so that we truly can hold them accountable.

I could get way into the weeds with this but im sure that if you support Ron then you know enough about econ and liberty to take the conversation to an intellectual level. They will probably try to shut you up by just saying that Ron Paul will never be elected, but we all know that this is not true and you can point to his success in the conventions as proof and even if he isnt elected the constituency that he has created WILL be a factor for many elections to come.

I've found that it is

I've found that it is generally very difficult to persuade someone to change their mind if they aren't ready for it. By that I mean they've already got to have some doubt about the person or idea. I was raised a Jehovah's Witness (thankfully I came to my senses as an adult and realized the error of my ways) and we basically used this same strategy. We'd find out where a person was wobbly, where they had some doubt about what they were once taught. Someone who's "faith" is strong is hard to convert because they are sure they are right. But if you can find that chink in their armor, that weak spot where they might wobble or question what they've been told, you can start to chip away at them. It takes some doing and a lot of questions but once you find their weakness you can start to exploit it. Every person is different but if you can find that one issue that has them wondering I'd hammer away at it (tactfully). Once you knock one brick out of the way it makes it easier to knock out others.

Think of it this way. Say you've got a brick wall in your path. There's no way around it; there it stands big and strong. You could slam your body against it again and again but all you're going to do is hurt yourself, not the wall. But if you poke around until you find a weak spot, like a loose brick or cracked mortar, you can start chipping away at it. Once one brick comes loose it makes it easier to knock out others. Eventually you'll knock out enough bricks and the wall will come down.

Find his weakness and start chipping away at. You can't go at it straight on. He'll put up his "wall" and you'll just keep smashing into it getting nowhere. Chip away at the loose mortar. First one belief, then another will fall. Eventually you'll have a new friend in liberty.

Why? Why do we have to pay

Why? Why do we have to pay the federal government that is too darn big and wastes the money anyway? We have let it get out of hand, and the Obama people are constantly told lies (ACTUAL UNTRUTHS) about all the "good" he is doing and how "transparent" he is, and they just do not question it. There is no hope for them unless they care enough to look and then believe what they are seeing instead of what they are told. It is a sorry state of affairs...

I just can not figure out what the government does for me. Roads? They don't cost that much and the state pays plenty for them. Defend our borders? Nope. They persecute others for the sake of righteousness. This is not worth a dime from me, fair or not.

“Die-hard Obama supporter”???

They're still making those, are they?!

If so, I doubt that the requisite “intellectual” ammo comes in the right caliber...

Using intellectual

Using intellectual information to argue with an obama supporter?

You're already going about it wrong...

I'd suggest reading the

I'd suggest reading the issues section at the campaign website. http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/
Also, someone recently asked a similar question, perhaps helpful. http://www.dailypaul.com/235524/how-to-wake-up-my-mother

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

Point some things out

You "used" to like Obama until you realized how much he is like Bush...

-NDAA/Patriot Act
-Troop "surge" in Afghanistan/Iraq
-Using Bush timetables on both wars
-Guantanamo still open for business
-Bush/Obama bailouts
-CISPA/Millenium copyright
-Huge deficit spending
-Undeclared wars
-Wars not paid for

Need I go on?

I think this is a great way

I think this is a great way to go. All of these seem like things that Obama would have promised to be against, yet obviously he was not.

Using the angle of having voted for BHO (yes I did, sad me) also works really well, since they can see that it is okay to change your mind. People often come to identify themselves with a group or ideology, and find it hard to break off because it is admitting they were wrong or incorrect. Once they see it is okay to change your mind once new info comes to light, it is much easier for them.

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Energy, Magnetism = Conversion

If you have energy and magnetism, you can convert most people. People tend to listen and follow those who are likable.

Ron Paul is full of energy and magnetism.

Messenger is as important as the message.

Look at yourself. Introspect.

Do you exercise every day? Do you eat healthy? Do you meditate? Are you confident?

Ask your friend some common sense questions.

Use rhetoric. Ask your friend why he believes what he believes? Poke holes in his theories. Demolish his theories.

Without demolishing his old theories, you cannot help build a new one.

BestRonPaulVideo, Totalitarianism http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIdBuK7_g3M#t=28m28s
BestVideo, Political Correctness http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz8pzG02oxU#t=19s
Bestbook, Totalitarianism, http://www.amazon.com/dp/0759672229

the fact that there's an impeachment bill for war crimes

and the unconstitutional NDAA bill that NoBama signed into law to strip away all our rights would make any sensible people not want to touch NoBama with a stick. Ewwwwe

Everone should pay their fair share in taxes

Zero Dollars! Why does anyone need to give any money to people who did not work for it?

Besides Slavery is wrong and I have been a slave to our monetary system my entire life....so have most.

Nothing gives Dr. Paul more

Nothing gives Dr. Paul more credibility than his 2001 speech on the house floor telling everyone about the housing bubble being blown up. Once I show people that video, their perception changes almost immediately(if they knew about the housing situation in the first place). Other than that I agree with most everyone else that it is about getting people interested in the root problems of our country and then letting them discover the answers on their own. Then again, if Dr. Paul allowed everyone to "discover the message on their own" we'd be in bad shape. So maybe the right way is to continue to argue your case, and improve your delivery of the message. That is what Paul has done.

"Where liberty is, there is my country." -Benjamin Franklin

Truthbearer's picture


...to show him movies.

Pictures say a thousand words etc?

Please do not drink and politik. It often leads to passions released that are combative.

Show him movies like Money Masters.


Explain to him how the banksters create wars and profit from them as we are even now being set up to lose WW III.



We all must stop the bankster madness because they do not care who is what, or what color your party is, they just want to kill us all off and greater plans are at work behind the scenes. Compare where we are today, to where nazi germany was just before WW II. Cycles of history repeat because no one remembers the lessons. Your friend must understand the bigger picture and his families bleak future if they continue on this hell bound path of more war and the eventual total destruction of America after the crash.

Here are some useful links that will give anyone the bigger picture by doing some more research and homework:



Here is the best all around news source to get him to read daily:


Often, if you can step out of the box, one can see the bigger picture of the money perpetuation and control of the world using money as everyone's god. For centuries it has controlled mankind. Here is the real kicker and something that will be posted about after this:


The old Cesarian divide and conquer methodology has been used in more modern times with the Hegelian Dialectic to pit neighbor against neighbor for too long in America. WE ALL have to recognize this beast that purposely causes disharmony, disinformation, and everything but love and community is everyone's enemy within the gates. Let us remember that across this beautiful nation we are neighbors and this is an indivisible community that is even beyond our own borders.





After the seeker after truth does the self educating to enlighten ones self, we can then have constructive conversations on the same level. Invite your friend to step out of the box and dare him to turn off the mind control fox/cnn TV.






As the VP said...this is a big F'n deal!


The granger hit a key point down below

You can't convert. They have to want to know the truth. When they want to they'll seek it out. You can only help them do so. No amount of arguments will change someone who doesnt want to change.

First give them a reason they might want to change. A doubt. A question. A fact. An idea. A principle. Sometimes an all out "intellectual" slug fest won't get you anywhere, but one of these may slip past their defenses. It will bug them, eat away at them, like a thorn in their mind until they finally sit down to find out if its true or not. That's when world views are broken. When the person themselves discover it.

That's how i got here. I thought everything was just hunky dory then I heard this guy saying we need to end these wars. What?!? Somebody lock this guy up he's going to get us all killed! Why on earth would he say such foolishness? End the Fed? What is this guy talking about? I don't even know what the fed is but for some reason this guy wants to mess with our currency and economy? Legalize drugs? End foreign Aid? Eliminate how many departments? No income tax? Whoa whoa whoa wait a minute. Nobody is that crazy, not even crazy people. I've got check this guy out for myself. What's making him tick. What happened after that was a succession of "Huh, yeah, that makes sense actually... wow. He's not crazy, he's down right brilliant. I've been so wrong all these years. Why isn't anyone else saying these things or figuring them out?"

Doug Wead says his story was similar. He heard something from Paul that just stuck out in his mind. Thought, that couldnt be right. Researched it and was blown away. He said there's a certain change that takes place when you discover something on your own as opposed to someone telling you or trying to convince of something. You gain a certain ownership and understanding of the message. Once you have that nothing is the same and it drives you to do what most Paul supporters are doing today. Tilting at windmills. Completely inexplicable from an outside view, but once you know, you know why we do it.

So yeah, you can go down a laundry lists of points for Paul and against Obama and Romney. Show them all the videos you want. Argue into the night, but until you find something that catches their interest and makes them want to find out for themselves it will all just wash over them or even strengthen their resolve for their particular candidate. If nothing catches their interest or makes them question or doubt, well then they're are brainwashed and a lost cause, for now at least. It will take a dire painful situation out of your control for them to ever wake up if at all. Stranger things have happened though. Some people get it right off the bat, others take several years. Ive had a few people, who I only said a few things about Ron Paul to them, which wasnt well received, but a few years later they came back and were total Ron Paul supporters, one even became a precint delegate in Washington! So yeah dont get discouraged or frustrated if they don't get it now. Just keep planting the seeds, having fun and being a good person, they'll remember you for it and what you said when the hard times come around, that you were right. Hopefully by then it won't be too late. Good luck!

The fact that he's even

The fact that he's even willing to sit down with you, much less let you talk is a good start. And poq is right -- you can't hammer it into someone who's not ready to listen. I'd find out if his family is union, or if it's just that grandpa was a democrat, and his father before him, so it's good enough for me. . . mentality prevails.

Then I'd probably just give him a copy of the Communist Manifesto with a few choice excerpts highlighted, and a copy of the Protocols to the Learned Elders of Zion and have him read the table of contents. It's all right there. Then tell him that's what he's supporting, whether he knows it or not. And TPTB are hoping not.

Then just be light, enjoy the beer and let him ask questions. Answer them as though his support is welcome but not necessary -- in other words, you're not attached to his results; it's a matter of fact, the R3volution is here, with or without him.

If you try to overwhelm him with issues or talk down to him on points of contention, you'll turn him off and he'll go elsewhere talking bad about you. And we all know it's not about you -- make sure he gets that too, without you having to spell it out.

Most of all, just listen to him and trust your instincts. You'll know where to go with it. Eventually he'll come around. They all do!

what you're looking for

and if all else fails...

tell him his share of the national debt

somewhere above 340,000 or so seems fair right?

i know officially its around 50,000 but that's without unfunded liabilities

I am a convert...

This is what I would say...Remember; To try to teach them our view points will be too difficult, you have to just speak in basic truths...
- Economy
- Education
- Everyone should pay their fair share in taxes

- Economy
Obama has tanked the economy...even worse than that clown Bush did...Period
- Education
Under Obama education has continued to fall at a rate as fast or faster than Bush
cite that last week less than half of FLA kids read up to their age level...Also cite that scores have continued to drop since the inception of the Dep. of Education in 1979...If he doesn't believe you take him to get a cup of coffee and talk to the clerk...your point will be proven right then and there..
- Everyone should pay their fair share in taxes
Obama never raised taxes on the truly rich like he said he would...And america doesn't have an income problem...We have a spending problem...Undeclared wars, the prison industrial complex, crony corporatism with no relief from tax freedoms only enjoyed by huge corporations, a world wide welfare state all living off the feet of AMERICA...you take over from there
All these points are mute if this person still thinks there is 2 parties...If we are robbed of the election in Tampa you tell him to watch...Romney will lose because the powers that truly run this country have Obama there for a reason...To drive our country into the ground and assume total control of our military...The only thing stopping them now is that pesky 2nd amendment
after all this then please show them this video:
Your whole goal here is just to plant a seed...Liberty will do the rest...Tyranny doesn't fall easily

Bad food, worse weather, please rEVOLution the states so I can bring my family back home!
Rosa Koire for for President!

At least you have his ears partially open

You can double up again on foreign policy. Since he likes that about Paul, that is a start. Focus in on this and detail out the points of Paul's non-intervention foreign policy. He has a thirty year history defending this stance even if he's stood alone.

Let him know that foreign policy is of prime importance to you - you disdain Bush for war mongering and Obama even more so. Have a look at Adam vs the Man here at Occupy Wallstreet laying out facts to Obama supporters:

Then, this leads naturally into Civil Liberties. The NDAA that Obama passed is even more sickening that the Patriot Act.

Here is one more Adam vs the Man vid that, in a debate, exposes the violent nature behind the redistribution of wealth.

Remember, Ron Paul is the only one flipping this whole stinking thing on its head and going after the issues that no one else even talks about: we shouldn't be policing the world, the fed, and civil liberties.

Ron Paul is much more different than Bush, Romney, Gingrich, etc. than Obama is. Show him that left or right, nothing ever changes. Good quote from Lew Rockwell here:

"The left wants the state to distribute wealth, to bring about equality, to rein in businesses, to give workers a boost, to provide for the poor, to protect the environment. I address many of these rationales in this book, with an eye toward particular topics in the news.

The right, on the other hand, wants the state to punish evildoers, to boost the family, to subsidize upright ways of living, to create security against foreign enemies, to make the culture cohere, and to go to war to give ourselves a sense of national identity. I also address these rationales.

So how are these competing interests resolved? They logroll and call it democracy. The left and right agree to let each other have their way, provided nothing is done to injure the interests of one or the other. The trick is to keep the balance. Who is in power is really about which way the log is rolling. And there you have the modern state in a nutshell."

More here: http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/left-right-and-state.html

You might explain that

You might explain that obama's buffet rule would only raise a few billion dollars and that the federal deficit is so huge that it would be about like putting a teaspoon of gas into your cars gas tank. The only answer is to drasticly cut the size of govt. You might also mention that if the federal reserve keeps creating trillions of dollars out of thin air severe inflation is bound to result.

Oh yeah

And, oh yeah, our good Dr. makes unparalleled stands on principle:
- rejects Congressional pension
- vows to take only 39K for presidential salary ( a 90% pay cut)
....just to name a couple

If Buffet were to stand on principle in this fashion, he would have already wrote a voluntary check to the government for these taxes he says the rich would be glad to pay. And, Michael Moore could sign over 90% of his wealth.

Why wait for the government to force you? C'mon Buffet show us how's its done.

Rand just returned half a million of his budget to the treasury to make his stand:


There was a Tony Robbins video on this site that showed:
- you could take %100 of the profits from the Fortune 500 companies
- every bit of the wealth from the richest 50 people in this country
- plus much, much more

and that would only get us through something like a few months of Obama's 2013 budget. Understanding this lies in having a clue that 1 trillion is astronomically bigger than a million or a billion....we hear the word "trillion" thrown around a lot, but man, its a hopelessly large amount of cash.

SteveMT's picture

Stick to the big issues, IMO. Start here:

Who goes to war while on vacation and never asked Congress for permission up to this day?
Who is presiding over six undeclared wars all going on simultaneously?
Who is responsible for attempting to restrict the 1st, and 4th - 10th Amendments of the Constitution?
Who sends fully automatic weapons to Mexico and blames border violence on the 2nd Amendment?
Who has been responsible for more gun sales in America than all of the other presidents combined?
Who cannot garner even one vote for a proposed budget over two successive years?

don't explain, SHOW them the truth:


If that video doesn't wake any 'critical thinkers' whose noggins are still ticking, nothing will.

I suppose if not, showing them that a quarter you're holding in your hand is real, too would be interpreted as a "partisan trickery."

That video should wake them up, even if they have zero clue on monetary issues.

then for a knockout punch, show them Mike Maloney's most blunt, most detailed primer on how a single dollar is created, and what it truly means:

Silver & Gold - Debt Collapse - $20,000 Gold - Mike Maloney on Economic Crisis

There are few films in the world that people say "must see!" but truly matter: this isn't one of them.

That presentation by Mike Maloney truly, truly IS A MUST SEE, as your own very survival depends on it, if one doesn't understand how a dollar is created, and just how evil the Federal Reserve it, along with all the forces at play here, beyond what any everyday Joe Citizen bothers to find out about.

This video is a must, must, must: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj2s6vzErqY

Not sure if Maloney's a full-on Misesian but he's absolutely Austrian leaning, and frankly was responsible to introducing Robert Kiyosaki of Rich Dad Poor Dad fame about Dr. Paul in 2007; Maloney's Kiyoaki's gold dealer, and one of his key investment advisers.

Yup Maloney, unlike these idiot Keynesian academics who've never earned a dime from the market from commerce yet deem themselves worthy to dictate 'rules' in a field in which they haven't got the slightest clue, Maloney HAS made REAL MONEY in the market, legitimately, and understands philosophically why and how.

Maloney interviewing Dr. Paul in 2007: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3SOlXxUBLk

Full version with Dr. Paul, and Robert Kiyosaki: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5VNAEmmBQM

Maloney with Max Keiser:


$10 Oil? Mike Maloney Schools Bankers on Deflation, Gold and Silver:
1of2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzef43gdupk
2of2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wrrzsrb-wg

And, THE BEST modern primer on how the Fed.Reserve creates fiat currency, I'd say it should be a REQUIRED viewing for all here, too. I truly cannot stress enough just how much this video MUST be seen by EVERYONE in the R3VOLution, too:


bar none, the best primer on Federal Reserve Fiat monetary system.

Listening to the completely batScheisse crazy, bonkers empty rhetoric of:

"must pay their fair share!"
"need more inflation!"
"need more aggregate demand!"
"wars are economic boosters!"
"we need to pay for Israel's defense!"
"we need more farm subsidies!"
"we need more foreign aid/subsidies!"

it's literally as if liberals and RINOS literally haven't got the slightest clue just how the REAL real world works.

99% of political partisans live in a Unicorn La La Land: they've so invested their personal identity with superficial partisan politics, and like a StockholmSyndrom victim, perhaps they began knowing that it was a lie, but in order to rationalize their own disposition for a prolonged duration, they've been lying to themselves for so long, they eventually HAD to make the lie become their truth, just so that their imbecilic mind can cope. If you live in a reality where your 'profession's motto is "perception is reality," you're not living in reality anymore. You've just become the king of your insane asylum.

Still can't believe these are the 'adults' in the world.

But please, do spread those videos around.

Often times with friends and family, unless they visibly see others who have financially succeeded following the advice that you're seeking to impart, they'll readily dismiss it.

PS. but before you show them any of that, simply ask them:

1. if they know how many millionaires and billionaires there are in this country, and how much taxes they actually pay?

2. if they know that income tax doesn't pay for Sh*t! It only goes to 'pay down' the forever-interest on creation of dollar by the Fed.Reserve that is designed to be NEVER paid off, as every dollar printed is literally only a "90%" dollar in reality.

3. do they know that the "1%" don't run jack sh*t in this country or the world, but more like the 0.000001% do?

4. do they know that the "1%" that they moronically refer to those who make $220,000+/year above are NOT 'rich' in ANY financial world, or by any metric? Furthermore, if they understood 'money' or rudimentary economics at all, they'd know the difference between KEEPING $220,000+/yr. vs. 'making' $220,000+/yr.

5. and be the most blunt about this: ask them if they can explain to you in less than a minute, WITHOUT the aid of google, internet, or any other reference device, in their own words, as of now: how a single dollar is created? And, explain it in their own words.

6. they'll obviously not know how a single dollar is created, because if they did, they would not hold any of the 'economic' views that they don't 'hold' in reality, as they're merely regurgitating what the likes of Paul KRUDman propagandizes, without understanding just what all that really means, worse, proceed to delude it's okay to now write regulations about a field they haven't got the slightest clue in.

7. simply ask them, 'now that you've just admitted you're not exactly clear on how our 'money' is made, would you like to find out? then show them the videos: give them a reason to prove themselves 'right' or wrong.

hope that helps, somewhat.

Predictions in due Time...

"Let it not be said that no one cared, that no one objected once it's realized that our liberties and wealth are in jeopardy." - Dr. Ronald Ernest Paul

You could direct him to Ben Swann's

latest reality check about Obama and Afghanistan
and didn't he have two years with a democratic Congress and still make things worse? There's so much negative material I find it outrageous that anyone still supports him, and I have a very hard time talking to an Obama supporter rationally because I just don't get it! NDAA, NDRP, HR347, Libya....Just the fact that the Banksters funded his election and back him makes me wonder how anyone could believe his class warfare bs.

This is what Revolutions are made of!!!!

~Debasement of fiat currency via Federal Reserve

~Last point tied with banks funding most of the top politicians

~False rhetoric shown by both sides of the political hydra

~THE EVIDENCE of prosperity in 50's DUE to cutting spending (novel idea)/10 million troops coming back home

~Point to each department and how they have much more than overgrown

~(hopefully they have the aptitude to look at the math)An example of the lost/disappearing value of the dollar and investing/savings power through loose lending/Federal Reserve System

Hope this helps. i know everyone knows these things but when put plainly it's hard for many to dispute the flaws

twitter: Kyle Mettling

if you have further questions or if this doesn't work

1) "everybody paying their fair share" parallels the 'social contract', which is a presuppositional fallacy

For example and as one who would argue a similar case, I have made no conscientious agreement to the unethical code of coercive taxation, funding unjust wars, or trafficking with counterfeit banking cartels.

Individuals conversely have the right to withdraw from such a system of abuse or corruption so for me, the ideal is found in a volitional apparatus where public agency is funded (or not) by conscientious choice and mandates (inc. anti-voluntary taxation, health insurance etc) are abolished

1b) a person similarly has the prerogative to impose 'taxation' on oneself, but not on others who do not consent

2) "Paul Ryan budget proposal"

Ideally within a Ron Paul Presidency, persons can opt out/into whichever public program they wish to endow. Hence if they want to contribute to a public school rather than something else (or not), it's up to them (this incidentally is what Republican/Democratic ideologies share in common: coercion abroad/domestically respectively)

3) "Obama couldnt do anything because of the Republicans in congress"

False. The President as Commander in Chief has the authority despite a party majority to bring the troops home today but as a political leader, he has not

Will this help?


I do understand it doesn't really address the points you listed, but it's quite damning of BHO.