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Is There Room for Christian Preaching Teachers in Public Schools With Ron Paul as President?

"In God We Teach" is a poignant illustration of my own personal concerns regarding the inroads that religious Christians, particularly evangelicals in the United States, have made in the republican party. I will admit that although I have taken great pains to study the links between Christian ideology and real libertarianism I am unable to find much in terms of consistency between both. Indeed, I would argue that the principles of both are not mutually consistent. Religious teaching is based on a pre defined truth regardless of societal needs while true libertarians promote the concept of freedom from all dominating forces, including religion.

It is difficult to argue philosophy especially on a such a contentious subject as the role of Christianity in the constitution and more importantly modern American society. This is why I find this film very educational. It basically describes the issues:

American must become more Christian to be saved (Santorum/fox and friend)

The right of the individual to record and challenge teachers that don't follow the constitution (liberty dude as far as I can see). As quoted in the video "to be a troublemaker is good" in this society.

The right of all and every citizen to public education free of religious brainwashing from zealous teachers (liberally minded people)
Quote from the film: The constitution is a purely secular document"

The right of any teacher to preach religious ideologies regardless of the fact that he is a public school teacher paid by the State on the basis that the bible is truth and it belongs in any and all classrooms including history class.

The question that I continued to ask myself watching this video was this:

Which side would a true libertarian support:

The young student that stood up for his rights and what he believed in even if it meant getting into trouble with officials and other schoolmates

or

The obvious lying Christian "History" teacher preaching his crap at any opportunity he has. Keep in mind that after his preaching became public he defended his preaching with the following comment "What I said was only private opinion. I wasn't preaching". He was willing to preach the word of Jesus so long as it was secret. Once it became public he chose to fight to protect his job and not the word of God. LOL

Yeap, once again...I post a divisive question. Grow up. We are all adults and debate makes us stronger. As for me, I think that student is great and he represents what makes America strong. A 15 year old boy confident enough to take on his teacher and school for what he believes in. He's a true libertarian and defender of the constitution. Awesome example of what makes American great. This begs the question....if you support the teacher in this case what does that make you?

IN GOD WE TEACH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=CA&feature=player_embedded&h...!

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I would say it depends on

I would say it depends on whether they're not too fat to fit in the doors.

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state schools need to go the way of state churchs. OUT

in a decentralized educational system

yes you could have your christian teacher in a classroom.

but if enough people want it, they could also have a muslim teacher in a classroom.

if we were to return power to the local level, then anything can happen. that's what freedom means.

are you ready for that kind of freedom?

I think you are ready for your freedom and none for anyone else who is different from you.

In which case, then the answer is "no".

And if you force the issue, I'll homeschool my kids, and take them to the church of my choice.

People voted you down

I say yes. There is room for you Christian. Just like there's room for me and the rest of us.

You are home now. Your God is honored here. I know His name. It's the Name Above All Names.

You are good here Christian.

There is nothing strange about having a bar of soap in your right pocket, it's just what's happening.

Until there are no more public schools,

keep the Jesus freaks out of the classroom.

We can only be kept in the cages we do not see. - Stefan Molyneux

You are a function of what the whole universe is doing in the same way that a wave is a function of what the whole ocean is doing. - Alan Watts

Keep the separation of church and state separate!

Unless you are totally fine with ANY religion being taught to your children in school. If you want prayer in school then be prepared for your children to be exposed to other religions, WBC, KKK, doesn't matter which.

The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
-Thomas Paine

yes, why is this so hard to understand?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor preventing the free exercise thereof

I guess when the law says, congress shall make no law, its hard for government to understand that difficult concept. So the government should not be involved at all.. If the school board wants to hire, fire its on them, not the federal government.

Cant speak for DrPaul

Myself I say no. Just the same as it is now if you want your children to be educated in a Christian environment then you select a school which provides that environment, aka a private school.

To bring any religeon over another into a "Public" school is wrong as we have freedom of religeon and to"force" a christian environment in a public school is imo wrong.

Check THIS out...

"The technique of infamy is to start two lies at once and get people arguing which is the truth." - Ezra Pound

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~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

The first and fourteenth

The first and fourteenth amendments expressly forbid public schoolteachers from preaching on the clock.

How is that?

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I would say it would be just fine

Just so long as the teacher in question was prepared for the onslaught of the PTA attacking if so much as a drop of theoretical biblical teachings were inserted. The parents would run the schools were Dr. Paul president, not the Dept. of Indoctrination (education). So while Dr. Paul would be proud that a person of such moral code were teaching children it would not be up to him, but rather the parents that would be in control of how education was handled.

Always remember:
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." ~ Samuel Adams
If they hate us for our freedom, they must LOVE us now....

Stay IRATE, remain TIRELESS, an

Easy, No.

No brainer. NO. If you want your kids to have their mind injected with beliefs...pay to send them to a private religious school. My kids would call out any teacher who tries to preach their thousands-year-old beliefs in public school.

And your...

brave heroic kids valiantly stand up in the face of those teaching Govt propaganda and call them out.

Hahahaha, you know they don't. Neither you nor your kids are mighty warriors for truth. You are just preying on those who are weak before Govt oppression.

It's easy to talk all badass when the Govt is standing behind your position with guns and lawyers. Go watch a movie or something if you want fantasy. :)

Do your brave kids stand up for the truth when Haeckel's embryo sequence, or the peppered moth study or the equine sequence are taught? All of those are proven frauds.

Haeckel was fired from his university over the embryo sequence. The peppered moths were pinned and glued on the trees in unnatural positions (they hang out on the underside of leaves), and the smallest horses (eohippus) are LATER than the size horses we have today.

Go stand for the truth, warrior. Get 'em! ;)

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~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

Ok I will Rephrase...

Let me rephrase. If my kids experienced any BS, whether it's centuries old or fresh new BS...I'd want them to confront it. Avoiding it sounds like an even better idea.

Maybe my comment was a little rash. But I think I'm justified if you consider what I believe. Think of it like this...my contempt for organized religion is akin to how most Ron Paul supporters feel about Romney/RNC/mainstream media. I think it's that bad.

please

get your kids out of public school. it's beyond me how any rp supporter can send their kids to these indoctrination prisons.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

Maybe that otta read:

"pay EXTRA to sent them to a private religious school." I paid, on pain of vagrancy due to losing my house from non-payment of land taxes, for other people's kids to attend the gov'ment skool, and then paid extra for my own kids' far superior education. Some deal.

Gov'ment skools are slave training centers. If you want to perpetuate the concept of liberty in the next generation, educate them accordingly.

There's definitely some truth

There's definitely some truth to that but I don't believe it's such a black and white issue. There's always going to be these disagreements over curriculum, approach, private vs. public etc. But I recognize the core curriculum is covered nicely in public schools, based on my experience in the system. If you want to learn to read, write, do math, learn computer technology, basics of a healthy lifestyle...the tools & knowledge are there and available in public schools where I was from. I had good teachers and bad teachers. Sometimes I was a good student, sometimes a bad student. But at the end of the day, I learned extremely valuable skills that taught me how to function survive in the world. Access, shitty parents and kids who aren't taught how to take advantage of these tools is a whole different discussion.

But if you're kids go to private schools you should not be taxed for public schools. Is there a tax refund for sending your kids to private school?

Based solely off the thread

Based solely off the thread headline:

The Federal Government under Doctor Paul, would not interfere one way or another in local issues, including schools. So he would leave it up to the local government, more specifically, YOU as to what your child is taught.

You are brainwashed

You have no problem with a teacher who thinks you and everything else in the world is descendent from a single microscopic organism that magically came to life in a primordial ooze. And you believe this when there is absolutely no shred of evidence to back that fable up. You have been brainwashed.

How you may ask? Take a look at a current example of the brainwashing that goes on by our liberal main stream line of thought that permeates our schools, media and our politics. A poll on MSN as follows.

" Scientist Richard Leakey says scientific discoveries will accelerate to the point that soon 'even the skeptics can accept it.'

What do you think of Leakey's statement?

1. I agree. Evolution is a fact.
2. I disagree. My faith tells me God created life.
3. I do not have an opinion. "

Notice the available answers to this ridiculous question. You are being brainwashed into thinking that you either believe in fact even though there are no "facts" that support evolution or believe by faith alone as if there are no facts to support faith.

This is how you and others are brainwashed into believing a certain way and this is how the debate is steered away from true facts and discernment. Not only with the evolution fallacy but with a whole range of topics that the liberal, socialist, communist types have been pushing for decades on ignorant people who believe everything they are told by the Powers That Be.

Your post is rife with ignorance, contradiction and hate. The fact is that you don't care if a teacher preaches their religion to students. You only care if they are exposed to any religious comments concerning the Bible. As long as it is religious fallacy like humanism, evolution, democracy etc... or apparently in your case "libertarianism" then you are fine with it.

You are a perfect example of what the PTB want in their subjects. Complete and total ignorance.

robot999's picture

Your missing the point...

PUBLIC (i.e. Gubment run) schools ARE the problem, not whether or not there should or shouldn't be _____________ in the public school system.

Not attacking you, but this is the kind of garbage that comes from the propagandists within the MSM.

Should ___x___ be allowed in ____y___? Where the emotion factor is placed on x, but the real / root of the problem y, is reinforced as a fact of life - and unchangeable. Classic propaganda / brainwashing.

Come on you're smarter than that aren't you?

"Government is the entertainment division of the military-industrial complex". - Frank Zappa

i'd rather my kid be taught faith in God

than faith in government.
funny, the odd case where a christian is "forcing" their views on the children gets the laser focus while countless liberals spout their BS in classrooms across the country.

"The two weakest arguments for any issue on the House floor are moral and constitutional"
Ron Paul

I'll agree with you

It is not right for either agenda to do this to those who do not agree or ask for it. The socialist crap is even worse but indoctrination is indoctrination no matter the source. Indoctrination even from the government should not be allowed. Religion and Politics should be kept out of the classroom and taught at home unless it is a private school. Black or white, no gray area period. A neutral zone with only known and proved facts taught.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

The defender of the Constitution would not intervene

as president in the operation of local public schools, as they are not a federal function. That's all that needs to be said on the subject of Ron and prayer in schools.

;-))

GROUPS????? NO Fed run schools!!! Locals can vote in what they feel is right. My vote would be to teach all things, let the people/ students choose what they want to believe.

Not so divisive

The problem is "public schools". They are, in fact, their own government, levying property taxes and such within their districts. We need to recognize that education is not a right, but a commodity, albeit a valuable one if pupils really learn somthing useful, like math.

This whole issue coulod be resolved forthwith by separating Education and State. De-governmentalize educational institutions immediately! If there is a market for underwater basket weaving, it will be profitable. If there is a market for physics or chemistry or engineering, it will be profitable. Let the market decide.

A bonus to this would be to dispel all the lawsuits and other legal issues surrounding the present system. If you want to have a school that teaches that God made the universe in six days, you can. If you want to have a school that teaches evolution, you can. That is the beauty of the market.

Not only that, but when property taxes are eliminated and parents and charitable organizations must pay for education, you can confidently wager that parents will be substantially more invested in the quality of the education of their children.

I could go on, but I think my points are a good starter. God bless America and God bless Ron Paul and his family and keep them safe and healthy!

Atheism is the concept that

Atheism is the concept that there are no DEITIES.

It says nothing about energy, dimensions, or the fact that there may be 'life after death'.

An Atheist is not jumping up and down screaming there is no God. Most I know just contend there is no solid evidence for such an "ENTITY".

So get your facts straight about what Atheism is before you argue the con.

We just oppose the THEORY of THEISM. We don't dress in all black and hail Satan or believe everyone should have wild sex and murder because there really is no point to it all. We don't feel Christians should be hung or flogged.

At least I don't.

We're not 'bad ' people, and I think I can speak for many of us when I say that we TOO have the best intentions.

But remember that it is the DEISTS (Jews, Christians, Muslims) that assert there is a GOD, and that certain political/societal problems can be answered by that notion.

We simply don't find the basis since NO PROOF, NONE, exists that such a being is there. So we as "Atheists" aren't arguing a point, it's the THEISTS that are.

And we don't like it in our schools, which are a de facto indoctrination apparatus of the STATE to begin with.

I mean, talk about mixed signals here.

Friend to Minarchists, AnCaps, Voluntaryists, Agorists, Constitutionalists, Libertarians, Paul Supporters, Free Marketeers, Jeffersonians, Status Quo Buckers, and Ron Paul Fans.

Pax Libertas. Semper Veritas. Semper Res Publica.

"Everyone is an atheist to

"Everyone is an atheist to some degree. Some of us just go one god further." -Richard Dawkins

The problem though

is you can't have Christians in your schools and not have religion in your schools - that is without curbing freedom of expression. I don't see any problem with a teacher admitting to his students if he does or doesn't believe in God. It's going to affect the way he teaches anyway. A person's worldview automatically affects his teaching (unless he's teaching math), sometimes unconsciously.

Teachers can lose their jobs for having a Bible on their desks even if they never open it. They can lose their jobs for bowing their head in respect during a prayer on school property, even if the prayer is student-led and participation is voluntary. Stuff like that happening in China would be understandable, but when the right not to be offended by other people's religious beliefs is taken to the insane extremes that it currently exists in this country is just a perfect example of the overreaching arm of our ever-extending authoritarian government.

the crowd you lament

JRoth,

I most entirely disagree with your statement that, "Religious teaching is based on a pre defined truth regardless of societal needs while true libertarians promote the concept of freedom from all dominating forces, including religion.

For me, as well as for most of the Christians I know intimately, our religion is first a seeking beyond defined truths. It is an attempt to deal with the unknown, unknowable. Most of us experience times in our lives when we are confronted with just how little we know, how little we can trust experience, how wide the gap between what we seek and what we can define and claim knowing. My sister calls this the "gap," and I think that serves. The religious seeker makes a decision, whether in one come-to-Jesus moment or in incremental ways, to explore that gap, to go beyond what he or she can be sure of...and, well, cease pacing along beside the gap and take a step.

Religious people, rather than being afraid of the indeterminate, the undefined decide to go there. For most of the Christians I discuss such stuff with, it is not a seeking for pre-defined truth, but a seeking beyond what is known and described and categorized.

Some of my favorite biblical passages are from Paul, who, when asked about the undefined and uncomfortable aspects of man's relationship with God, simply says, "Oh, the mysteries," and "Who are you, oh man?" He does not offer pat answers; he appeals to those who wish to deal with the gap, with God, with the unknowable. He appeals to people who wish to contend God without pat answers and pre-determined truths.

The notion of faith is all about this. They call it a "leap" for good reason. It means that you step into the gap and choose to contend with the unknowable God DESPITE not having answers. You go forward in that relationship -- anyway.

I sometimes think that there is less separating me, a lifelong Christian (except that agnostic spell in college and a couple years after), from an atheist. An atheist, it seems to me, is contending with God (or the lack of a God). He's dealing with the gap by deciding it is a void, some sort of accidental artifact of human evolution that holds nothing. But he is contending with it. I contend with it, too, but I've decided it is more intriguing to step into it than to pace along beside it, calling it nothing.

I'm not sure who's right -- the atheist or me. I'm not sure. And that's faith. I've chosen to believe, or act as if it were, so that I can explore. I chose to be a religious person -- a Christian -- because I want to content with the gap and the god that may dwell there.

I would argue that your premise is off and so you set yourself up for a problematic dichotomy between religion and libertarian philosophy. It's often the case that some premise you take for a given is tilted and so the rest of the thought process slides off into irrelevant direction. Tilt at windmills.

Sure there are Christians and other religious people who are not cognizant of their desire to explore the unknown and many who are clutching at hard truth even as they dangle over the gap. Just as there are libertarians who think that if they grow a beard and shout, "End the FED" they are pursuing freedom even if they've no idea what Just War Theory is or what M1 is. We all do what we can with where we are at.

This teacher and this student (and so many of the other players who involved themselves in this documentary) are speaking from where they're at. I trust in the power of freedom -- espoused in the New Testament and in libertarian philosophy -- to allow each of us the broadest possible path to wander and to contend with the gap, our god, the unknown with the best of how we can where we are right now. I believe that the freer the man, the more capable he will be to contend with what is or isn't of God with his best most honest self.

Freedom and certainty are always in dynamic tension -- in us as individuals and governments. To set one against each other misses what's both beautiful and scary in both religion and political philosophy. It seems to me that you're trying to be the judge here, trying to find a black and white lens. You can do that; we all do that much of the time. But the truly exciting places aren't so delineated. They're gray, and the human struggle is to step into them, despite our fear, with the freedom to go on the adventure.

Freedom is scary. And there will always be people who, upon experiencing that first spine-tingling sensation, will retreat to safety and what you call pre-determined truth. Don't confuse the crowd you're in with the crowd that is. If you experience Christians or religions people as folks clamoring for pre-determined truth, it's most likely because that's the crowd you're hanging with. Like clings to like. Step out a bit further. Stop defining your beliefs according to the crowd you lament.