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Is There Room for Christian Preaching Teachers in Public Schools With Ron Paul as President?

"In God We Teach" is a poignant illustration of my own personal concerns regarding the inroads that religious Christians, particularly evangelicals in the United States, have made in the republican party. I will admit that although I have taken great pains to study the links between Christian ideology and real libertarianism I am unable to find much in terms of consistency between both. Indeed, I would argue that the principles of both are not mutually consistent. Religious teaching is based on a pre defined truth regardless of societal needs while true libertarians promote the concept of freedom from all dominating forces, including religion.

It is difficult to argue philosophy especially on a such a contentious subject as the role of Christianity in the constitution and more importantly modern American society. This is why I find this film very educational. It basically describes the issues:

American must become more Christian to be saved (Santorum/fox and friend)

The right of the individual to record and challenge teachers that don't follow the constitution (liberty dude as far as I can see). As quoted in the video "to be a troublemaker is good" in this society.

The right of all and every citizen to public education free of religious brainwashing from zealous teachers (liberally minded people)
Quote from the film: The constitution is a purely secular document"

The right of any teacher to preach religious ideologies regardless of the fact that he is a public school teacher paid by the State on the basis that the bible is truth and it belongs in any and all classrooms including history class.

The question that I continued to ask myself watching this video was this:

Which side would a true libertarian support:

The young student that stood up for his rights and what he believed in even if it meant getting into trouble with officials and other schoolmates

or

The obvious lying Christian "History" teacher preaching his crap at any opportunity he has. Keep in mind that after his preaching became public he defended his preaching with the following comment "What I said was only private opinion. I wasn't preaching". He was willing to preach the word of Jesus so long as it was secret. Once it became public he chose to fight to protect his job and not the word of God. LOL

Yeap, once again...I post a divisive question. Grow up. We are all adults and debate makes us stronger. As for me, I think that student is great and he represents what makes America strong. A 15 year old boy confident enough to take on his teacher and school for what he believes in. He's a true libertarian and defender of the constitution. Awesome example of what makes American great. This begs the question....if you support the teacher in this case what does that make you?

IN GOD WE TEACH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=CA&feature=player_embedded&h...!



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But as an "Atheist"

But as an "Atheist" Libertarian, do I have a right NOT to be taught YOUR Religion and can I assert that right?

Just as you have the right not to be forced MY beliefs?

Because that's the question here.

Can you be of a "libertarian" mind and support state forced religious views on others?

Friend to Minarchists, AnCaps, Voluntaryists, Agorists, Constitutionalists, Libertarians, Paul Supporters, Free Marketeers, Jeffersonians, Status Quo Buckers, and Ron Paul Fans.

Pax Libertas. Semper Veritas. Semper Res Publica.

Reply

PaxLibertas, perhaps I got the colored boxes bit confused, but I think you're asking me with this post.

I don't understand why you'd want to guarantee a right not be taught my religion. My son is only in junior high so I haven't thought all this out on a personal, parental level, but I guess I remember fondly my first high school philosophy or religion (or maybe it was literature, it comes up everywhere) class in which atheism was discussed -- and agnosticism, and Buddhism, and Hinduism, etc. -- I never thought in terms of my right not to be taught something. I was certainly more eager TO BE taught something. I have a faint memory being taught something I thought was stupid in high school, but I never remember feeling like I was ill served by it (perhaps I'm forgetting my bout with negative numbers, which I do not believe in, and only came to understand in my 30s when my my robotics engineer husband dispelled my entire rebellion by telling me that the numbers weren't "negative" but only declaring and "oppositional determination"). But to be taught something doesn't equate with being indoctrinated. We're free to find something we're taught of use -- or not. I'd rather be taught and study something before accepting or rejecting.

So I don't get the determination NOT be taught something.

I taught myself a bit of atheistic ideas and agnostic and I enjoyed learning and exploring. I'm at a bit of a loss about your connection between being taught and being forced. Isn't teaching, at its core, about exposing and giving tools to explore an unknown realm? I don't get this feeling of being forced because you're being taught. I'm missing something, I suspect.

I think we all have an inherent right not to listen to anyone trying to teach us anything. That's why my son can't diagram a sentence or put his third finger on the violin fret in the correct position. I can "teach" all I want, he may have to listen but he doesn't have to change according to my "teaching." I realize those examples all place me in the "right" position. But, take a dear friend of mine who's always trying to teach me that homeopathy makes any kind of sense. I don't feel threatened, or forced, by her teaching attempts, although I'm can't see my way to magic water. I'm not up in arms about her forcing me into anything. I get that she's trying to impart something important she believes in and that I'm probably not going to be all up into that, but I cherish her attempts and know that her teaching endeavor is an out outgrowth of her care for me. And, who knows?

I'd rather be exposed to, taught about ridiculous ideas, than to skip merry along in ignorance. Isn't ignorance a far greater threat?

I'm in no way defending the teacher in this documentary, but I am questioning a grown man's(?) apparent inability to understand that teaching is in the eye of the pupil.

I think we're discussing a difference in classes

Philosophical or historical religious classes (which I think you're referring to) are completely different than teaching that creationism is the only way we or the earth or the universe exist (which I think is what Paxlibertas is referring to).

There should be no

books in a state school.
There should be no desks in a state school.
There should be no drinking fountains in a state school.
There should be no teachers in a state school.
There should be no children in a state school.

ha--

can't believe I agree with CarrotTop--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Isn't a "state" school a

Isn't a "state" school a reformatory?

Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

John Adams

Government school,

state school, public school: different words for the same thing, in my book. And, yes, the beast is a reformatory--it reforms normal kids into weirdos who don't know up from down, back from front, or right from wrong.

2 + 2 =4......True

2 + 2 =4......True Statement

Water is comprised of H2O.....True Statement

George Washington was the first Unites States President...True Statement

Jesus is the Son of God. Walked on water. Died for your sins.....Hmmmmm

Friend to Minarchists, AnCaps, Voluntaryists, Agorists, Constitutionalists, Libertarians, Paul Supporters, Free Marketeers, Jeffersonians, Status Quo Buckers, and Ron Paul Fans.

Pax Libertas. Semper Veritas. Semper Res Publica.

As an Atheist I wonder why

As an Atheist I wonder why any good Christian would want the State(public schools) to teach Christianity. The public schools have screwed English, Math, History, and Science; if the public schools started teaching Christianity then in a few short years Christianity would be screwed too.

I would rather get rid of mass indoctrination guised as education, for it is rotten to the core; just look at the test results since 1979 when the DOE was created, every subject the public school students are doing worse and worse, and don't think that Private schools haven't been effected either because they have. The teachers at private schools have mainly been educated in the public school system, plus the DOE does have control over them(the private schools) as well.

If Christians want a dismal public school system teaching their kids Christianity then I would be willing to trade them Science; get Science out of the public school system so the students can actually learn unhindered science unlike what they are being programmed in that destructive institution known as the public school system.

this Christian agrees wholeheartedly with you--

Thank you--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Right on , Man! Excellent

Right on , Man! Excellent point!

If my need to be RIGHT is greater than my desire for TRUTH, then I will not recognize it when it arrives ~ Libertybelle

"As an Atheist I wonder why

"As an Atheist I wonder why any good Christian would want the State(public schools) to teach Christianity."

As a Christian, I wonder the same thing! Well put, by the way. Perhaps a more general question will answer the more specific one...

"Is there room for Federal mandates and control of public education with a President Paul?"

I think it seems pretty obvious that Paul takes a "federal hands off" approach to education - so I seriously doubt the more specific question is relevant.

I know Dr. Paul, or should I

I know Dr. Paul, or should I say President Paul, would take a hands off approach; but I still am left wondering why Christians would want indoctrination stations to try and teach Christianity. It is not like they(Christians) don't know that our education system is probably the worst in the world, and that those indoctrinators ruin and destroy, within the victims(students), any and all love for any subject which they are helplessly indoctrinated in. So, it would appear that Christians want to destroy all love and joy of Christianity for those who might actually be Christians imprisoned in those indoctrination stations.

It is nearly a proven fact that every subject pushed onto the victims(students) is disliked and very rarely studied in-depth by the students outside of the indoctrination stations.

I myself have a fascination with every subject -no matter what it is- but I certainly didn't get my inquisitive desire or love of learning from an indoctrination station.

I can only say that I do

I can only say that I do agree. I do not trust a public education system to teach my child about any subject matter effectively... so why would I want them teaching religion or Christian dogma. It simply makes zero sense.

Still, if the question is what difference a President Paul will make in how public education is conducted in this country, the answer will have little to do with prohibitions mandated at the federal level. The opposite effect will be actualized. Specifically, less centralized power in control; more localized control. And the further down the chain of divided power control descends, the less these issues will be issues of any great degree.

I would hope that in the

I would hope that in the future after President Paul has set a precedent, that we would have abolished public schools and most private schools also. I feel that even the most unsure of people could educate their children better than those places of misery. The only thing children learn in those horror shows known as schools is socializing. Don't get me wrong, I think knowing how to talk to and deal with people is a good quality to have, however, if one is able to think, learn, and reason then there is really nothing they can't do. But to expect our system of mass programming, indoctrination, and manipulation -guised as institutions of learning- to be the places where learning how to think, learn, or reason can -or ever will- be found, is naive.

This somewhat reminds me of

This somewhat reminds me of something G.K. Chesterton wrote a century ago:

"Now, when society is in a rather futile fuss about the subjection of women, will no one say how much every man owes to the tyranny and privilege of women, to the fact that they alone rule education until education becomes futile: for a boy is only sent to be taught at school when it is too late to teach him anything. The real thing has been done already."

I like that quote. I do

I like that quote.

I do believe that neither women nor men really appreciated the real value -to the family, to the child, and to society- of the mother educating the children. People valued that aspect of motherhood way to little in my opinion, and our families and society as a whole are disintegrating because of it; but the State is getting bigger and more powerful and the FED is making a "mint" from it.

I'd trade all future

I'd trade all future abilities to give posts 'thumbs up', if I could only give this comment a thousand of them.

I'm glad you liked the quote and can agree with its sentiment. Indeed, a mother teaching a child in those first most formidable years has a profound effect on the individual. Teach a child in these years with loving care, and they are much more prepared to sift through the chaff the world will later want them to swallow.

I am unspeakably grateful that my mother taught me those first years. I realize now that the lessons taught were far and away the most important education of my life.

What I find hilarious is that

What I find hilarious is that "Christians" argue for the power of the state to be a spring board for the dreaded and defunct failure called the PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM to preach "Christian" values to children.

Awesome, "Having cake and eat it too" paradigm there.

Equally hilarious are those who preach "Liberty" cheering the thought of forced BELIEF on kids of other parents WITHIN that PUBLICLY FINANCED framework, be it Atheists OR Christians.

Involuntary....AND STATIST.

Awesome!!

Friend to Minarchists, AnCaps, Voluntaryists, Agorists, Constitutionalists, Libertarians, Paul Supporters, Free Marketeers, Jeffersonians, Status Quo Buckers, and Ron Paul Fans.

Pax Libertas. Semper Veritas. Semper Res Publica.

false dichotomy

It seems to me that anyone who has read Bastiat and acquiesced in the basics would realize that public schooling is a poor framework within which to support anything. That is, the poor child should be liberated from the busy-bodies who steal from others to indoctrinate children. You certainly wouldn't support him in his complaints that the indoctrination he is receiving is not to his liking. He should quit whining and educate himself instead of waiting on mindless government drones to "learn" him something.

On the other hand, just because we wouldn't "support" the student is no reason to support a tax leech like the "teacher."

When I view this thread and most of the comments in it, it makes me a little embarrassed for you and I want to say "your public schooling is showing."

RP

Seems to me like a committed Christian man and thus his duty is to God, country, and family. I do not think RP would curtail any Christian liberties.

donvino

Only if

"Christian Liberties" do not curtail and impose on the Liberties of others as they always have done in the past.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

ok

Likewise, if "atheistic liberties" are not imposed on people as they have been.

donvino

Absolutely agree

As long as "nondenominational" is not considered the same as "Atheism".

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

What about the Constitution

What about the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights?

I'm pretty sure that's in there somewhere?

Friend to Minarchists, AnCaps, Voluntaryists, Agorists, Constitutionalists, Libertarians, Paul Supporters, Free Marketeers, Jeffersonians, Status Quo Buckers, and Ron Paul Fans.

Pax Libertas. Semper Veritas. Semper Res Publica.

As a LIBERTARIAN I should be

As a LIBERTARIAN I should be FREE to abstain from RELIGIOUS TEACHINGS being shoved down my throat, or my childs by FORCE.

Especially in a PUBLIC SCHOOL.

We don't not need a Theocratic version of Libertarian ideals, they stand on themselves.

Each person has a right to believe and practice their religion, but not forced on each other and especially BY THE STATE and under mandate or LAW.

You want to teach religion in schools? Fine, put your kid in a private Christian school, where it is agreed upon by CONSENTING adults on the dotted line.

You want to teach your kid ATHEISM? Fine, put them in a school that teaches such, or teach them yourselves.

Or maybe let your kid find their OWN beliefs without you stamping one to their head since birth,,,,,now there's a thought.

Friend to Minarchists, AnCaps, Voluntaryists, Agorists, Constitutionalists, Libertarians, Paul Supporters, Free Marketeers, Jeffersonians, Status Quo Buckers, and Ron Paul Fans.

Pax Libertas. Semper Veritas. Semper Res Publica.

Could you give some...

details of the your tragic and horrific experiences of persecution as an atheist in the US. I'm sure you have nightmarish stories to relay of being detained, forced to make oaths to Jesus at gunpoint, your home ransacked and non-christian books and other media taken away and burned.

I know of the brutal oppression and genocide by the christian tyrants in the Soviet Union, China, Vietnam and Laos but I NEVER thought I would see them doing that here. It all started with religious teaching in their classrooms! We must be vigilant! :(

And the US media. Jeez. You can't change the channel without hearing constant ridicule and harassment of atheists. I can't imagine what it is like.

And man, having to sit and listen to what others believe. I shiver just thinking about it. How does one recover from such an ordeal?

*grabs some popcorn*

.
~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

Since you asked, Age 3

Since you asked,

Age 3 through 10 I was put in a Lutheran School, forced to learn about "Jesus" against my will.

Age 12, my father had me join his church while he worked for BENNY HINN and TBN Broadcasting, while at church they laid hands on me and prayed over me in 'tongues' without my permission.

At about age 18 through 24 I studied Hebrew and Greek and was studying to be a Theologian, because in some warped part of me I thought I was doing what was right.

About 30 I thought "This is all a bunch of crap" and walked away.

7 years sober now.

Also I should add:

"Being preached to on DP constantly by Christian RP supporters who jump on you the minute you take one "secular" stance, while being TOLERANT of their rhetoric because you know that RP is still the greatest man out there but you have to endure them because they come with the job of being a RP supporters...holy crap I dunno if I have the strength for this"

Does that suffice?

Friend to Minarchists, AnCaps, Voluntaryists, Agorists, Constitutionalists, Libertarians, Paul Supporters, Free Marketeers, Jeffersonians, Status Quo Buckers, and Ron Paul Fans.

Pax Libertas. Semper Veritas. Semper Res Publica.

Childhood experiences?

A parent has the right to force his child to attend whatever church he wants to as long as there's not physical abuse. (Benny Hinn is a little out there on his doctrine. You're a perfect example of why I wish Benny Hinn would get right or get out of the ministry.) It would be different if the government was making you attend choice. You seem to think we want the government to use schools to teach Christianity. While I certainly believe this country would be better off if everyone was a Christian, I don't know of any Christian that thinks public schools should be used to teach Christianity because they would object the first time a teacher started teaching their kids false doctrine.

I missed the abuse part....

Granted that being around Benny Hinn would most likely be decidedly unpleasant, I can think of stuff just as bad as that. Like being forced to watch Oprah, make my bed everyday, yardwork, forced to babysit girls when your 10, having a parent rant on and on about something boring, italian green beans and asparagus.

Apparently your parents were pushy and obsessive with you. This is not true of the vast majority of the christians I have been around. I grew up in an evangelical home. I was "forced" to attend Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian and lots of "you're gonna burn in hell" independent churches all over the South. Sunday and Wednesday every week at least. One or several christian camps every summer(fun as hell!) :D

I grew up a party animal in the 70's. Weed, ludes, acid, alcohol, etc.. When I got busted (many times) nobody ever tried to ram anything down my throat. I flat out told them until I have proof I can't believe anything. Nobody ever tried to rough me up either physically or emotionally about it.

Church after church after church they would take in troubled people and families without condemning them. Christians are just people. Some of them are good or bad. Just like some atheists are itching to kill millions and others would die trying to stop it.

A parent can abuse their child with anything. Yours just chose to do it with religion. Atheists abuse their kids too...

.
~wobbles but doesn't fall down~