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Is There Room for Christian Preaching Teachers in Public Schools With Ron Paul as President?

"In God We Teach" is a poignant illustration of my own personal concerns regarding the inroads that religious Christians, particularly evangelicals in the United States, have made in the republican party. I will admit that although I have taken great pains to study the links between Christian ideology and real libertarianism I am unable to find much in terms of consistency between both. Indeed, I would argue that the principles of both are not mutually consistent. Religious teaching is based on a pre defined truth regardless of societal needs while true libertarians promote the concept of freedom from all dominating forces, including religion.

It is difficult to argue philosophy especially on a such a contentious subject as the role of Christianity in the constitution and more importantly modern American society. This is why I find this film very educational. It basically describes the issues:

American must become more Christian to be saved (Santorum/fox and friend)

The right of the individual to record and challenge teachers that don't follow the constitution (liberty dude as far as I can see). As quoted in the video "to be a troublemaker is good" in this society.

The right of all and every citizen to public education free of religious brainwashing from zealous teachers (liberally minded people)
Quote from the film: The constitution is a purely secular document"

The right of any teacher to preach religious ideologies regardless of the fact that he is a public school teacher paid by the State on the basis that the bible is truth and it belongs in any and all classrooms including history class.

The question that I continued to ask myself watching this video was this:

Which side would a true libertarian support:

The young student that stood up for his rights and what he believed in even if it meant getting into trouble with officials and other schoolmates

or

The obvious lying Christian "History" teacher preaching his crap at any opportunity he has. Keep in mind that after his preaching became public he defended his preaching with the following comment "What I said was only private opinion. I wasn't preaching". He was willing to preach the word of Jesus so long as it was secret. Once it became public he chose to fight to protect his job and not the word of God. LOL

Yeap, once again...I post a divisive question. Grow up. We are all adults and debate makes us stronger. As for me, I think that student is great and he represents what makes America strong. A 15 year old boy confident enough to take on his teacher and school for what he believes in. He's a true libertarian and defender of the constitution. Awesome example of what makes American great. This begs the question....if you support the teacher in this case what does that make you?

IN GOD WE TEACH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=CA&feature=player_embedded&h...!

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Who claimed "Atheists" don't

Who claimed "Atheists" don't abuse their kids also?

Not me.

And please don't tell me about my experience. You weren't present in my childhood. The stuff I wrote was the PG version. I witnessed a lot of sick and twisted stuff in the 'church' in my early years.

But this article is about public schooling so let's get back to the issue.

Friend to Minarchists, AnCaps, Voluntaryists, Agorists, Constitutionalists, Libertarians, Paul Supporters, Free Marketeers, Jeffersonians, Status Quo Buckers, and Ron Paul Fans.

Pax Libertas. Semper Veritas. Semper Res Publica.

I didn't tell you about your experience...

I told you about mine. Quit trying to beat up an entire group because YOU were abused by YOUR parents. My point is you don't suck because you are an atheist yet some atheists will mentally abuse their children over sports, or schoolwork, or just telling them how stupid they are.

Suicide is common among engineering students because the dad's often have pushed them to brink with preparation for engineering school without trying to find out what the kid wants. SAME DAMN THING as your experience with a different focus.

Get off your rabid intolerant authoritarian ego trip bud. You were abused and I am sincerely sorry you had to go through that. But quit beating up on others who are just as likely to have experienced much worse than you. Are you a 11 year old crack baby being sold by the mother for drugs? You aren't the world's lone martyr.

Stop and take a look at your rhetoric towards others. It's obvious you are hurting but it NOT THEIR FAULT. I don't even agree with the ones you are arguing with. There should be no govt schools at all. This whole thread is a strawman by a troll. You fell for it.

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~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

Dude, I have a pretty good

Dude, I have a pretty good life. I'm not 'hurting', and I don't hate Christians. I'm pretty damn tolerant.

But I AM wondering why so many "Liberty" Christians on this thread seem to welcome the idea of state sponsored Christiandom via public schooling.

I find it backwards.

Friend to Minarchists, AnCaps, Voluntaryists, Agorists, Constitutionalists, Libertarians, Paul Supporters, Free Marketeers, Jeffersonians, Status Quo Buckers, and Ron Paul Fans.

Pax Libertas. Semper Veritas. Semper Res Publica.

Firstly

I want to apologize to you for the tone. I was in a hurry typing to multitask in the kitchen. :p

Secondly, I am tired of both "sides" of this issue after years and years of listening to it.

And I totally agree about a Ron Paul supporter or someone who claims to have libertarian tendencies making an argument that involves not getting rid of public schools. In my experience, the process of the typical person coming up to speed with a good grasp of libertarian fundamentals can take years. :\

Notice I chose not to engage people from the context of "what should go on in public schools?".

Again, sorry for my tone...

*fist bump*

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~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

Actually, this is what happened to me too

Sorry Weebles buddy,But it happened this way to me also.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

I grew up in churches...

all over the South. I only have pleasant experiences learning about jesus (except if the person was too boring). Even though he was later replaced with doobs and music. :p

I was even dragged into those snake-handling churches a couple times... :\

Oh, and the foot washers. :D

I remember hearing of oppressive stuff going on, but it was always the majority aware of it and trying to stop it. But that is true of every social grouping.

Not everyone can be born into a family that will only teach what you eventually decide to believe at some point in the future. Merely being taught a religion and being "forced" to memorize some text, how on earth is that traumatic. Life sux and mine has been full of listening to stuff I despised. I'm not scarred.

Another thing that is funny, is that the evolution curriculum of the two local christian schools in my area are more extensive and complete than the public school. And they don't politicize it. Just, "here's evolution" and "here's creationism". And both schools welcome secular and atheist parents and many attend.

If I would have lived in the same place all my life I might think that my experience is the exception. But I've been all over. And I just don't see the atrocity here...

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~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

I understand

Your community is very lucky to have such a nonpartisan educational system. Truly though, this is very rare anymore. Example,When same sex marrage was briefly legal in Ca, a gay female teacher took her whole class on a field trip to her own personal wedding without the parents permission. This is just an example of what could happen if any group was allowed to control the educational system. There would be a whole lot of things going on without the parents permission. That was in San Francisco if I remember right, where she thought that the culture would understand because a high population is gay. What about the ones that were not? Just the one individual is why there is separation of church and state. I know you know this though.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

I agree...

pretty much with what you are saying. But notice I am not discussing "what is proper for public schools". There should be no public schools. But, if there is no public schools then christian, muslim, gay, atheist, etc. "weirdness" in school would become the order of the day.

I always hear stories of atheist kids "escaping" to public schools. I guess one could escape to a secular private school. As things stand secular private schools are much higher cost than religious ones(usually but of course not always).

Hopefully, the market nature of no public schools would cause most religious schools to tone down on order to compete for students(customers).

As far as "separation of church and state", I don't see that in the Constitution. I see a "separation of state FROM church"

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Websters 1828
----------------
RESPECT'ING, ppr. Regarding; having regard to; relating to.

Congress shall not make no law regarding/relating to an establishment of religion (an established church/denomination) -- hands off

or prohibiting the free exercise thereof -- no laws specifically restricting a religious practice (unless it conflicts with other laws not specifically restricting a religious practice -- murder, fraud, etc.

"Separation of state" is only found in a personal letter of Jefferson's (Danbury Baptist, iirc)

Now, this doesn't mean I'm for religion in public schools. No "solution" until public schools are gone. And even then people will still squabble over it. Probably forever.

Anyways,

*fist bump* :)

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~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

Denise B's picture

"Or maybe let your kid find their OWN

beliefs without you stamping one to their head since birth,,,,,now there's a thought." How exactly would a child brought up in an atheist home and going to school in a secular environment ever be able to make an informed decision if they are denied access to alternate ideas? I always find it rather amusing when people rail against Christians "brainwashing" their children, yet don't consider the fact that they too are doing the same thing with their own children, they are just instilling a different point of view. We ALL teach our children our values and beliefs, whether Christian or not.

What drives me crazy about this whole discussion is that people cannot see their hipocracy when they rally against government control and scope and then seek to use the government to surpress ideas/belief systems that they do not agree with. What is wrong with offering "Optional" courses on religion in school?? I suspect; however, that your response would be that that is a problem as well. If you are sincere about wanting your childen to find their own beliefs (not only the ones that you seek to "brainwash" them with), than why are you so afraid of them even being exposed to ones that are different from yours? Christians have had to endure this for quite some time now - private school is not an option for many people due to the cost.

If we have reached a point that even Libertarians wish to silence beliefs and viewpoints that they don't agree with, then we are all in alot of trouble..

1)First of all are arguing

1)First of all are arguing for the STATE to inject a policy of FORCED learning of a subjective BELIEF in schools? Why? Is this a Theocracy?

2)A child should be learning "alternative explanations"? As opposed to math, english, science, history, biology, writing? Where does "God" fit into that since, "God" can't even be demonstrated on paper or in words?

3) Poor Christians enduring chastisement? I believe in PROTECTING Christian's beliefs. But that also doesn't give a Christian or an Ahteist a right to shove a belief down a child's throat with the STATE as force behind them.

Liberty?

Liberty is forced learning of other people's THEORIES that have no yet been proven and have nothing to do with a child's academic success?

Friend to Minarchists, AnCaps, Voluntaryists, Agorists, Constitutionalists, Libertarians, Paul Supporters, Free Marketeers, Jeffersonians, Status Quo Buckers, and Ron Paul Fans.

Pax Libertas. Semper Veritas. Semper Res Publica.

I agree with your revulsion

I agree with your revulsion to the STATE being involved in pushing Christian or Atheist belief systems. It appears to me that Denise agrees with you too.

In regards to point 2) that you make: I home school my children with my wife, and we fit God into all the subjects that you mentioned. And it's not just shallow statements like "God did it" as I'm sure jumped into your mind as you read my comment.

For quite some time our academic system has run off the Greek model, which is spiritual teachings are separate and distinct from academic teaching. The ancient Hebrew model (and to a large extent the modern one as well) is that there is that it is impossible to separate the two. Since I've been brought up in the Greek model, it is quite a challenge to include God in everything, but we have had success in doing so.

Christian schools don't necessarily depart from the Greek model. I would say that probably most stick with the Greek model, but since I haven't personally seen what most do, I can't say that with any authority.

Most of us are not

LIBERTARIAN's, or Libertarian's.

We just have a 'libertarian (root word: liberty)' mindset.

Well, I AM a Libertarian.

Well,

I AM a Libertarian. Sorry if you're not.

And since you chimed in, what exactly is a "Libertarian Mindset" to YOU?

Because I happened to read and follow every LIBERTARIAN based author Ron Paul followed, and learned from the past LIBERTARIAN philosophies which birthed this movement via Ron Paul.

And a lot of us RP supporters ARE Libertarians.

So I'm speaking AS ONE. Do you take issue with that?

Friend to Minarchists, AnCaps, Voluntaryists, Agorists, Constitutionalists, Libertarians, Paul Supporters, Free Marketeers, Jeffersonians, Status Quo Buckers, and Ron Paul Fans.

Pax Libertas. Semper Veritas. Semper Res Publica.

I thought that

you meant what you wrote.

I'm really simple.

No explain. Don't put up BS

No explain. Don't put up BS two liners as an answer.

What does "most of us are not...." mean?

Did you take a poll?

And are you debating the content of my original post or just cherry picking the "Libertarian" part as a bone of contention?

Friend to Minarchists, AnCaps, Voluntaryists, Agorists, Constitutionalists, Libertarians, Paul Supporters, Free Marketeers, Jeffersonians, Status Quo Buckers, and Ron Paul Fans.

Pax Libertas. Semper Veritas. Semper Res Publica.

Wow

My replies are never about confrontation.

If the words I chose are meaningless to you, move on.

The words are meaningless

The words are meaningless because you're not explaining or backing them.

Now if you're going to throw peanuts from the gallery, explain why I have PEANUT SHELLS at my feet.

Your time to shine dude.

Friend to Minarchists, AnCaps, Voluntaryists, Agorists, Constitutionalists, Libertarians, Paul Supporters, Free Marketeers, Jeffersonians, Status Quo Buckers, and Ron Paul Fans.

Pax Libertas. Semper Veritas. Semper Res Publica.

Really

done with your bloviating.

Have a good one.

Exactly, like you stated you

Exactly, like you stated you are quite 'simple'.

Now when you wanna explain why I have peanut shells at my feet, come back anytime and do so and we'll go from there. Till then, throw peanuts at someone else just to hear yourself inject a couple one liners.

Friend to Minarchists, AnCaps, Voluntaryists, Agorists, Constitutionalists, Libertarians, Paul Supporters, Free Marketeers, Jeffersonians, Status Quo Buckers, and Ron Paul Fans.

Pax Libertas. Semper Veritas. Semper Res Publica.

no one liners

He's not "throwing peanuts" or "one liners." When you write Libertarian with a capital "L" this refers to the Libertarian political party. Ron Paul is a Republican. Probably the majority of people who support him are Republicans by political party, not Libertarians (though probably the majority of Libertarians support him too, but there aren't too many of them). The Republicans who support Ron Paul are libertarian (small "l") in their thinking. VR or whoever was just reading what you wrote and taking it at face value. Unfortunately, he decided to spend his time reading the writing of someone who doesn't seem capable of expressing himself clearly or picking up on the context of a forum exchange. There are some good sources for grammar and definitions and such that you might check out. Maybe you went to public school. It's OK.

Ahhh , I see. Because I chose

Ahhh , I see. Because I chose capital "L" this whole bullshit argument commenced.

Got it, kudos to the literal minded cherry pickers.

And kudos to you for throwing in the insults to add that extra flare to your post while preaching about 'manners'.

Awesome show....*GOLF CLAP*

Friend to Minarchists, AnCaps, Voluntaryists, Agorists, Constitutionalists, Libertarians, Paul Supporters, Free Marketeers, Jeffersonians, Status Quo Buckers, and Ron Paul Fans.

Pax Libertas. Semper Veritas. Semper Res Publica.

farmers

rule

Consider this

a learning experience.

I think the crew has covered the basics for you.

Back to the books.

Sometimes have to lose to win.......

I would say that’s unfortunate but with a little thought you can see how it’s a great thing for everyone, not just some. I’m not in favor of teaching any religion in public schools. Public schools are required and kids are made to attend (unless you can pay for private schools which most are church run). This is an issue for me because in this country we have freedom of choice, that is the freedom to chose to be religious or not and what religion we want to follow if any. So how can a child that is made to be in a school and made to attend a class be choosing anything? Can these kids opt out of your class if they don’t buy into your rhetoric? Not likely as you feel some need to indoctrinate others to your beliefs. The kid that opposes it the most is most in need of it right?
Well settle down I could really go on a rant here but I have a point. Dr. Paul wants to take the Gov out of schools. To me this would end the State / Church separation clause and you could teach what ever you want. The __________ news (you fill in the blank) is there will be schools that teach Christian / Catholic faiths and schools that don’t allow any faith to be taught. There will be Jewish and Muslim based schools and maybe some Eastern philosophy based schools. So there would be some real choice for once. I do like choice a lot. So I could send my kids to a School where they would get an academic education and they would be free to explore any faith they wish as long as it is their choice. I do believe that is the lesson from Dr. Paul, that we are all free. Free to make our own choices. I personally want to teach my children how to make choices without superstitious ideas. Others may feel differently that’s what made this country and its people so different in the first place. It’s amazing to me that if we actually elect this man or someone who caries his torch he may just give us ALL what we want. Unless what you want is to infringe on others rights, then I think you’re SOL. lol

p.s. Making anyone listen to anyone preach may be seen as an infringement of someone’s rights!

Absolutely agree

But I have a question about forced attendance due to local districting? How would this element be addressed and could everyone end up wanting to go to just one of five schools in a city because it may be considered superior to the rest?

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

I think ......

It would be like the free market as Dr. Paul speaks of and the schools no one attends would close. So successful schools would prosper and others would ether change their curriculum or fail. You probably would not see a lot of successful Jewish schools in a black or Hispanic areas. I think that at any rate you would always have secular schools everywhere even if some faith based school exist. I do feel that even the faithful would send their kids to a secular school if it provided the better education, test scores, higher graduation rates, and then just deal with the spiritual education at home and in church. Which is how it should be.

AMEN to that. Pun intended.

AMEN to that.

Pun intended.

Friend to Minarchists, AnCaps, Voluntaryists, Agorists, Constitutionalists, Libertarians, Paul Supporters, Free Marketeers, Jeffersonians, Status Quo Buckers, and Ron Paul Fans.

Pax Libertas. Semper Veritas. Semper Res Publica.

I'll put this as simply as possible.

School is a local matter, to be controlled by local school boards, which are in turn controlled by the parents.

A guy forcing his Christian beliefs down a kid's throat is no different from a guy forcing his atheist beliefs down a kid's throat. They're both wrong. Ideally, if public schools *must* exist for some absurd reason, then it should be made clear to all teachers that they are to encourage discussion and an honest assessment of ALL sides of an issue.

Care to explain how Christianity and libertarianism are not "consistent" with each other? Pre-defined truth is the way the world works, my friend. As long as it's not being enforced by the government's guns, there's no inconsistency at all.

Two days of bumps

Two days of bumps - what the founders and Darwin believed - "The big boom is a religion." Blah, blah, blah.

The troll wins.

Ĵīɣȩ Ɖåđşŏń

"Fully half the quotations found on the internet are either mis-attributed, or outright fabrications." - Abraham Lincoln

New tactic

For dealing with these posts meant to sow dissent and division among us. If you click on one at all, do this. make a reply with a link to a positive post. Ideally we will get several of them on a thread, then not only vote down the negative, but click on the positive links boosting them above the negative ones. Free market of ideas they lose.

http://www.dailypaul.com/236189/the-overlooked-strategy-of-t...