6 votes

Still trying to win my friend over. My latest attempts at friendly persuasion.

Here are a few recent comments between myself and a lifelong friend of mine on FB. We've been arguing about issues for quite a while. I've had little/no success in convincing him to support Ron Paul. I share this with the DP crowd so, perhaps, you can use my thoughts in your own battles for liberty with those you know and so you can share with me any ideas you may have that could use to build up my arguments.

Me: Ever notice the people who insist that Islamic extremists attacked us because they hate our freedoms are the same ones who insist that we must throw them away...while the ones who warned, a decade before 9-11, of coming consequences as a result of our flawed foreign policy, are standing up against the massive erosion of individual liberty at the hands of our Federal Government.

Him: Look up caliphate. Develop an understanding of the roots of radicalism. I dont want to throw freedom away....thats what Obama/eco-warriors want. Ok?

Me: Patriot Act, EEA (Enemy Expatriation Act ), Drones over U.S., NDAA(Section 1021), TSA, CISPA, SOPA, ~ All egregious moves by government that undermine liberty. I've not heard you mention how any of these issues boil your blood. Not that it doesn't, I'm just saying that I haven't heard you come out strongly against these bills/practices in defense if liberty.

I'm not saying we face no enemy, but I think it would be wise to look at causation a little closer. Why do they hate us? Why did they attack? Because of our "Freedom" or because of our occupation? Let's agree that demanding the cause is entirely one or the other is naive.

I believe the Constitution affords the U.S. all the necessary individual protection and national tools to defend us from any threat. The president should not have the authority to wage war without Congressional approval. We don't need TSA groping us. We don't need federal government policing the internet, spying on us, passing regulations that would restrict one of the most productive economic engines of the 21st century. The president and his staff should not, under any circumstance, have the authority to kill an American citizen without first proving in the court of law his guilt.

Yet, for the most part, a large portion of the conservative base remain silent on these issues. It's the Ron Paul republicans who are pushing back on these naziesque tactics. Perpetuating fear is one way government consolidates power and convinces the people to part with liberty.

You repeatedly claim that Ron Paul and those involved with the liberty movement don't understand the threats we face. Am I to understand that you believe if he(we) did understand, we would then realize that all these invasions on liberty by our own government are necessary to combat foreign threats. That is what I believe you believe. Correct me if I am wrong.

Hence my image. If it's our freedom they hate...Why are so many willing to throw freedoms away in the name of winning the war on terror. It makes no sense. If I believed that terrorist's hate of our freedom was the reason they attacked us, the rational reaction would be to stand up and defend our freedom from being undermined, not sit back quietly while government consolidates war power and turns American soil into part of the battleground. That's how we win the war on terror.

I've asked before but I have never received a response. What does winning the war on terror look like to you?

...

I'm awaiting his response.

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Yep

There is a terrorist under every bed in America. Have any idea who stated this was not true and we should all have the common sense to know this?

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

tell him to stop being such a pussy

lol oo the boogie man is gonna blow me up!

As tempting as that may be,

As tempting as that may be, that derogatory, dismissive tone is a neocon trademark. I'm still trying to appeal to his rational side. If that doesn't t work I may have to resort to namecalling.

I know man, im just talking out of my ass

yea i retract that statement, haha my patience has been growing thine lately i guess

FBI identified hijackers, the FAA found no planes.

Except the CGI planes seen on TV.

So why did we invade and occupy Muslim lands and radicalize the population?

Your friend has read some bad books. Those garbage publications fuel the misinformation at Fox also.

Free includes debt-free!

Levin, Beck, Hannity, Rush...

Levin, Beck, Hannity, Rush... These are his foundation.

Wouldn't hurt to ask, if there are books that support his case.

If so, maybe that will give you a better perspective of the problem.

Free includes debt-free!

Al Qaeda is killing thousands of men women and children.

Unfortunately they are doing it on behalf of the US and its allies. This is not conspiracy theory it is documented fact. They are being used in Syria and were used in Libya to overthrow Qadhafe. In fact they are the core of the Free Syrian Army and were the core of the rebels in Libya. If they really are our enemies why are they working for us?

http://landdestroyer.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/nato-triggers-af...
http://landdestroyer.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/empires-double-e...
http://www.moneytrendsresearch.com/rothschild-wants-irans-ba...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U14cONsdsYQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MMAON...
http://www.laguerrehumanitaire.fr/english

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

How about trying a different tack?

Without mentioning the Good Dr, discuss the events that are going on that will affect him directly. Shrinking money, failing Banks, bailouts, a possible Bank run, the UN controlling the internet, instability in the work force, the cost of living. Get him interested in the evils of UN Agenda 21 and how it will cut his freedoms. The erosion of his constitutional rights. And then slowly turn up the heat.
Gentle persuasion can be very powerful.
Good luck.

just found this.

Even the Bush administration saw the wastefulness of our overseas basing network. In 2004, then-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld announced plans to close more than one-third of the nation’s overseas installations, moving 70,000 troops and 100,000 family members and civilians back to the United States. National Security Adviser Jim Jones, then commander of U.S. forces in Europe, called for closing 20% of our bases in Europe. According to Rumsfeld’s estimates, we could save at least $12 billion by closing 200 to 300 bases alone. While the closures were derailed by claims that closing bases could cost us in the short term, even if this is true, it’s no reason to continue our profligate ways in the longer term.
http://www.fpif.org/articles/too_many_overseas_bases

What if......

What if the MSM started to put RP in a favorable spotlight? What if, a few months ago, (insert favorite msm network or news anchor)said that RP was the presumptive nominee? What if they told you he had the best chance to beat Obama? What if they said he had raised the most campaign cash? Would you still support Romney?

"Liberty is to the collective body, what health is to every individual body. Without health no pleasure can be tasted by man; without liberty, no happiness can be enjoyed by society."

— Henry St. John

Re: What if......

An excellent way to open a conversation or someone's mind because you don't come across as pushing your views, just asking someone to consider "What if....."

Thanks for casting your bread.....

Because: Some animals are more equal than other animals. -Animal Farm-

What the? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MTIwY3_-ks

Bump for importance......

This is important info because getting through to others is what it's ALL about. After all, we cannot win this IF we can't win over the hearts and minds.

For everyones sake, don't over look this topic. Please keep the ball rolling here so we can be able to learn these things more deeply and be able to teach others more clearly.

Because: Some animals are more equal than other animals. -Animal Farm-

What the? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MTIwY3_-ks

I have lots of friends like these.

You have to remember that people are a lot alike in the way their minds work, whether they are liberal or conservative. They settle on a world view and then, which ever simple approach fits it, they grab on to it for dear life and don't want to let go unless they have to, in order to keep their original view intact. They crave simplicity and someone with credibility to listen to for their window on the world. They don't want to have to re-examine things.
When a conservative finds a spokesperson (Fox News and Talk Radio) for their belief that government is about power grabbing and looting the taxpayers for personal gain, they feel comfortable and can settle in with their favorites who they trust to figure things out for them. Now life is simple again because they have someone smart whom they trust to filter the news for them. Liberals do the same thing, just with a different world view.
When you argue your points, you have to use their deepest and most firmly held beliefs and show them how their trust is being misplaced. For my friends, I think the starting point is that we know the media lies to them. If/when they point out that even Fox and HannityLevinRush say that Ron is a kook or has no chance, I would ask them if it doesn't seem odd that these guys are following the same approach and party line about Ron as CNN, MSNBC,and the big 3 networks, who we know want Obama to be president. You won't get anywhere trying to convince them that their trusted sources are lying to them. That's too earth shattering, partly because those guys do talk about the evils of big government and it's too confusing to realize that big is big whether it's big R or big D government. Just take the viewpoint that those guys are being lied to, as well. You have to get them past lapping up whatever talking point is being fed to them before they will listen to us or Ron.

Look.....

Look at it like, you are dealing with someone in the worlds biggest cult. He is in the cult of the "boob tube". In the Boob tube cult, they're gurus are those glowing ghost on the glass screen. And after all, these little guru ghost know more than you, because they are of "the choosen ones" that are worthy enough to make it into your glowing little talking box.

Because of that, it negates much of your authority, because, after all, he got his info from a glowing guru.

Thus, point number one:
His source of information.

Second, his source of info STILL brings him to believe that:
"Brown people from over there" are dangerous to Americans because of 911. This is where the dots are not connecting right because he's still buying the lies of the MSM, because he's not received any refuting evidences to tell him otherwise.

You need to get him to connect the dots a little more correctly and you will not be able to do that until his mind is open to reception. Once he is receptive he needs to see some WTC 7 videos. Then sit back and wait.

Until you get the dots connected a little better on things his mind cannot reject, then, his chances of seeing your point of view are slim to none.

Until that time, I'd rather be talking to a rock....

*

What do you think?

Because: Some animals are more equal than other animals. -Animal Farm-

What the? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MTIwY3_-ks

I think that the best way to

I think that the best way to end a constructive conversation with a neocon is to bring up 9-11 conspiracy theories.

Re: I think that the best way to

Ahhhh, why are you saying, "I think that the best way to end a constructive conversation with a neocon is to bring up 9-11 conspiracy theories," when your post STARTS with a 9-11 comment?

...while the ones who warned, a decade before 9-11, of coming consequences as a result...

I'm simply responding to your point of 911.

OR am I missing something here?

Because: Some animals are more equal than other animals. -Animal Farm-

What the? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MTIwY3_-ks

I was reacting specifically

I was reacting specifically to the comment about wtc 7 videos. I don't think my friend would react well to truther speak. Not yet anyway.

My comments about 9-11 had one intent.

I think its important that people know that long before 9-11 Ron Paul was warning of possible blowback. My friend loves to say that RP blames America for 9-11. Informing him that Paul was warning not blaming seemed like an important distinction.

Re: I was reacting specifically

Cool, just sayin, the tactic works for me. If you can get him to that point, it'll probably do the job faster than anything else.

Because: Some animals are more equal than other animals. -Animal Farm-

What the? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MTIwY3_-ks

This strategy has worked for me numerous times

Concede that islamic radicalism is dangerous, and that an honest debate can be held on whether or not we should be in the middle east.

Then ask them why we need to be occupying Germany or Japan. Once they concede that having massive military presence in those 2 countries simply amounts to a massive economic stimulus for them (both in terms of our tax dollars being spent there and in terms of them not having to pay for their own defense), then you add South Korea to the list. The might balk, as North Korea is "dangerous". Then you point out that North Koreans are eating tree bark because they're starving, and that if North Korea invades South Korea, they're going straight for the McDonalds.

Ultimately the point that I've gotten to with several people is that, while they may not specifically agree with him on middle east policy, Ron Paul has a lot of good points with regard to foreign policy in general, military over-extension and overspending, and his fundamental desire to bring our troops home. When they realize that, in truth, they actually agree with MOST of his foreign policy stances, they tend to become a lot more comfortable with actively supporting him as a candidate.

Nobody agrees with any candidate on everything. So if you can convince them that their disagreement with Paul is with regard to a specific application (middle east) of a broader philosophy that they actually DO agree with (getting rid of global militarism and empire building), then they come around rather quickly.

Awesome. This is exactly the

Awesome. This is exactly the type of feedback I was hoping to get. Thanks. Great points.

I am also

trying to talk with a friend who is "programed/brainwashed"

My friend is the kind that has the sign in the garage that says, you can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hands. He is a liberty minded individual. He lives off the grid, no cable tv, no internet, no credit cards. The only source for his news is the Clear Channel talking heads.

When we talk I try not to make direct statements but instead ask him questions. When the level of my questions reach outside of the Clear Channel talking heads 20 second clips he reverts back to instead of answering the question to make the statement, Well we gotta get that guy out of the White House at any cost or the ole lesser of the two evils to which I reply is still evil.

When asked who owns Clear Channel he was clueless that Bain Capitol holds an ownership share, He is also clueless about the 3 largest campaign contributors are the same for both Obama and Romney. They own both horses in this race and you think there is a difference in who wins??

My friend knows and has agreed that Ron Paul is the best choice for us but A vote for Paul is a Vote for Obama according to him .... No a vote for Paul is a vote for RON PAUL. Dr. Paul is unelectable, 12 terms elected to Congress and he is unelectable?? try again.

2 weeks ago he was in his height of glory when he enthusastically told me Ron Paul is Out. I asked him if he read the press release word for word?? Nope, Hannity and Rush had it all over that day RP is OUT!! Tried to explain that the statement is nothing new, Dr. Paul did not spend money in Primary only states. Then I as if he knows how delegates are elected?? Again clueless as to the caucus victories for Ron Paul.

Stuck with the AP delegate numbers Romney is over 900 and Paul has less than 100. He refuses to believe that it could be a possibility that Clear Channel might have other interests than to promote anyone but Romney.

Where I have left my friend at in conversation is to tell him that I value our friendship but please lets not talk about politics anymore. The reason is because your information is limited, this in no way means that you are not intelligent or smart but your information is limited to one source. When you can advance your knowledge base to read the other side of the same story, until then we have nothing more to talk about.

He gets angry and tells me that Im just so smart, to which I reply I do not claim to be smart I just have access to the same story from many different views. I read each one of those views and try to find the truth in the middle of it all.

How does one educate past the programming??He tells me to quit drinking the Kool-Aid and I tell him lets see what happens in Tampa, then he will know they have been lying to him all along.

Even the straight truth on video has a hard time breaking that programming. It is impressive when you think about it, they have control over some down to thier core beliefs thru thier manipulation and lies.

What does it take for the light of truth to pierce that veil of illusions? Then again maybe the person is not ready to wake up.

the last sentence answers your question.

I have had the same debates with my father. If all else fails, "well...we have to get Obama out." Last time we got together, he saw a Ron Paul sticker on my cooker and said "too bad he won't win" (which is just being a smartass), I ignored him. I've made the decision not to talk about it anymore because you can not make people see what they don't want to see, you just can't. He uses every logical fallacy in the book and repeats every platitude we all know too well and when people do that, they are just being stubborn and the harder you push, the more they will resist. It's hard to undo a good brainwashing. Plant seeds and leave it at that is sometimes the best you can hope for.

My dad said to me months ago,

My dad said to me months ago, RP will never get the nomination. That still bothers me. My mom is much warmer to Paul. You can lead a horse to water...

Yes.

My friend listens to those same talking heads. If they don't say it, it aint true. Any evidence to the contrary is simply dismissed. What makes the situation even more difficult is that this particular friend of mine has a twin brother. Both of them would have to be persuaded. They are very intelligent and stubborn. I don't believe too many have really challenged them the way I try to. They've always been a bit intimidating due to their very strong, opinionated personalities. I keep trying because if they would back Paul, they would become some of his most vocal advocates. Once they put their mind to something they will speak their mind no matter what anyone says. That's a blessing and a curse since it makes them all that more difficult to convince. They both live across the country. Our only real communication is FB. About every week or so a little argument flairs up and then dissipates into FB no mans land. I can only hope that at least some of our conversations are considered beyond the moment.

FB......that's the problem

If you were talking to him face to face, in front of a computer where you could PROVE what you are saying is true, he might have to force himself to start thinking critically. It's too easy to dismiss someone's opinion when it's typed words. Have you tried having him watch documentaries like "Robert Pape: Dying to Win" or "The war you don't see", to help with the foreign policy angle.

"Liberty is to the collective body, what health is to every individual body. Without health no pleasure can be tasted by man; without liberty, no happiness can be enjoyed by society."

— Henry St. John

I'm not familiar with those

I'm not familiar with those documentaries. Ill check them out. Thanks.

I just watched an interview

I just watched an interview with Robert Pape on youtube. Some time ago I remember stumbling across his lecture on suicide terrorists but I never watched all 4 videos on youtube. Pretty compelling stuff. I'm so glad you mentioned him. thanks.

Keep trying

Til you wake him up