2 votes

∞ Crack this walnut

So it recently came to my attention that in San Francisco it is illegal to smoke in your car if you have someone under the age of 18 occupying the vehicle with you. Sadly this did not come to much of a surprise to me.

I was told by the person who brought this local law up that it makes sense if you think about it. In discussing it with someone else, I was also told that this is a good thing because the health of the child was at stake and second hand smoke is unhealthy and can even possibly kill. The bottom unwavering line, I was told, is that the government should be able to intervene into family when an adolescents well being is involved and this child in such a circumstance is forced to live through an adults bad decision.

I tried to draw a picture and show the slippery slope they were on by allowing government intervention with good intentions & I tried to reason and state how you can not legislate morals into society. I also mentioned property rights and how obviously your automobile is not your property but none of these arguments had any effect since it was the "safety and well being" of the child that was already predetermined unhealthy here.

I want to crack this walnut
So here I am... curious. What approach of argument would you fellow DP'ers use to broaden the vista views of my fellow friend?

Thank you for your time and any energy you may use

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It's hard to convince a collectivist

You either believe in big government or you don't. In my experience many people are so brainwashed that governments do good that they cannot listen with an open mind.

It is hard but the best thing to do in my experience is to just leave it and be a good friend. Over time they may learn from you if and when they are ready.

It's hard to argue in favor of smoking,

so it's probably best to take the other tack, and argue that a gov't which can legislate that can also legislate anything else they want to, and it's only a matter of time until YOU are oppressed by their actions.

If the person you know is a golfer, ask them how they'd feel if the gov't banned golfing because it's a known health hazard to the players and also the spectators, and billions of dollars a year of health care costs are incurred from golfing injuries.
You can make up a reason to ban anything, if you're a banner.

Adam Smith Wealth of Nations

"I have never known much good done by those who affected to trade for the public good. It is an affectation, indeed, not very common among merchants, and very few words need be employed in dissuading them from it"

Merchants do no find it profitable and it does not serve their customers.

Politicians use it as an excuse to create a profit for them.

Was the study valid that made claims of the dangers of second hand smoke? How does it compare to a weekend around a campfire? Is this a pre-crime? Is damage caused every time? Or does this have a high (how high) probability of causing damage according to controlled studies?

Ingested or inhaled Nicotine is broken down by the liver into vitamin B3 and B6.

Is the individual sovereign or not?

Is the family sovereign or not?

Some cultures smoke for religious reasons.

What's the penalty if you let the kid smoke and you enjoy the second hand smoke?

Doesn't this come down to rudeness. I would think myself rude if I ate a big delicious snack in front of others without offering to share while ummming and ahmmming and exhaling a pleasured sigh.

Don't bogart. There are better ways to handle these issues. There is no justification for making rulers by making rules.

Many people I grew up around family who were smokers. I don't recall ever being burnt of smothered by their smoke. Going out for a smoke was an excuse to get away from the kids.

What rights do minors have or should they have. What gives government the right to tax on their behalf? We're doing it for your own good.

I am not seeing the killer argument, time to read the comments below.

Free includes debt-free!

I cant offer any help here. I

I cant offer any help here. I hate smoke. I think people should be free to do what they want, but they can smoke away from me.

To climb the mountain, you must believe you can.

Both of my parents used to

Both of my parents used to smoke. My mom smoked while pregnant. But my siblings and I never had asthma or any kind of health problems whatsover, even though mom and dad would smoke in the car all the time.

My brother's wife does not smoke, nor does he. They raised their children, "smoke free." Nobody was allowed to smoke around their kids. They were smoke free nazis....

Guess what? My nephew has asthma. Go figure...

Let's get this straight...People in America smoke less now than ever before, but cancer is booming at unprecedented levels. As people quit smoking, one would be led to believe that the rate of cancer death statistics would decrease, but that is NOT the case.

What is the ONE single thing that all of mankind has in common? Fire....ever since human beings knew how to create fire, they've been breathing the soot and ashes into their lungs as they slept in their caves or tepees. Fire keeps us warm and safe. Without fire, we would not be alive today.

Mucous membrane....do you remember that from high school biology class? When one breathes in soot and smoke, the body's natural biological immunity defense reaction is to create a membrane of mucous around the lungs - a perfectly natural biological reaction after hundreds of thousands of years sitting over a fire.

Never be afraid to ask simple questions.

Plenty of Palmitic Saturated fatty acid needed to make mucous.

One effect of deficiency is asthma. The low fat/no saturated fat diet prescribed by the government is promoting asthma. The brain is saturated fat and cholesterol. Our brains are starving also.

Butter and whole cream from grass fed cows is my favorite source of palmitic acit.

Clearly the government does not have our best interest at heart. Government has no heart. No brains or courage either.

Free includes debt-free!

Parenting intrusions

I've said the same as you did. The "slippery slope" issue is key. The "unhealthy food" (proven to be unhealthy, e.g., sugar-laden, preservative-laden, hormone-laden, etc. food) that parents might feed their children would fall into the same category. Also lifestyles - e.g., if parents allowed children to spend 4+ hours/day sitting in front of a screen (which most do) instead of ensuring their children got plenty of fresh air, sunshine, and physical exercise. Plus a child's well-being is more than in terms of physical health. I've also pointed out the statistics of the deleterious consequences of DIVORCE - re academic achievement and emotional & physical health. (And are the side effects of all the antidepressants given to depressed children, some which can cause "spontaneous suicide" (!), any less harmful than 2ndhand smoke? And bear in mind, entire generations had parents who smoked cigarettes, pipes, and cigars at home and in cars - the kids survived.) The point is: parents are flawed human beings just like everyone else - always have been and always will be. It would be helpful to see that parents had resources available so as to become better educated as to health issues. But short of overt physical or emotional abuse, that's life. It's a kid's tough luck (or good luck) to get the parents he did; hopefully, when he's a parent himself, he'll pass along the good and ditch the bad. P.S. The question, too, is where does it all lead to in the final analysis? We'll have to pass a test and sign to something to even be able to have children to begin with?

When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe.
~ John Muir

That just about sums it up.

That just about sums it up.

On long road trips I remember my dad even letting me hold the pack of smokes and dole them out at his request. Though, as an adolescent I smoked and suffered some ill effects, I am happy to say that I didn't carry on the family tradition. As you said, I am just passing along the good and have enough sense to know what the bad really is and to keep it out of my daughters life.

Still, I want slap every person I see smoking in the car or home where children are present. Sadly, this all plays into my theory about people. That being, they can be really stupid.

It is a slippery slope. My gut reaction at this behavior is "cuff em!" but as pointed out where does it end?
Sorry kids. Try and enjoy the ride while you slowly suffocate due to mommy and daddies selfish idiocy.

How you go about convincing the nut out of it's shell on this one is beyond me.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." Benjamin Franklin

Actually this is State law

It is the law in the whole state of Ca.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

oh wow

I didn't know that... the person that told me of this law said that this wasn't the case in LA but it was in SF...

guess I was misinformed

Perhaps the person was misguided because it's a law that's currently moreso enforced more in SF than it would be in LA?

Yep, whole state of CA

It was a test question I got while acquiring my CDL. This was in Oceanside (near San Diego).


Very possible

All these communist laws come from the San Francisco and Sacramento area. In LA they probably wouldn't bother you much because of the officer safety issues down there. No cop in LA is going to risk getting shot just to write someone up for this. SF is another whole world of it's own and completely lacks any common sense or reality as a culture. They would indeed risk death to write someone up for this minor issue.

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

they should jail parents

of obese children for feeding them mcdonalds.

they should confiscate all cleaning agents in the home for being potentially deadly and jail parents who keep such chemical agents in their homes because they are a potential threat to children and dogs.

they should mandate that kids who will be exposed to the sun wear 300 dollar sunblock, but dont worry they will send you a check to help pay for it.

they should have weekly mandatory dr. visits where they monitor your diet so you dont get fat.

they should impose a minimum fine of $1000.00 for allowing children to walk around with untied shoelaces.

they should should jail anyone who doesnt clean their room.

they should jail anyone who who gives their children candy because it leads to dental problems.

read them that list, and then tell them that they sound like the idiot who wrote this list lol.

in rereading this thread

I can't believe I never thanked u for ur time and post

thank you !