-42 votes

Oh forget it

Just had to get that thought off my mind. I'd love to say it to the man's face.



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The founders were deists is a propaganda campaign

None of the founders were deists if you mean signers of the Declaration of Independence. They were all professed Christians who attended church, 6-8 were professional clergy at sometime in their lives, one was a minister, the secretary of the Declaration whose name is on it translated one of the most scholarly copies of the Holy Bible at that time into english.

For those who like to claim Thomas Jefferson or Benjamin Franklin were deists, Thomas Jefferson was an alderman at his church, started the first church services in Washington Dc, and helped design the new church building of his church when they built a new one.

Benjamin Franklin was calling for prayers at the constitutional convention, and giving advice to his daughter to attend church during the war for Independence. Franklin presided over the convention for the Pennsylvania constituon of 1776 - the Revolution's constitution, and like most of the States, it required you to believe in the Christian Bible.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

fyi alderman should be

fyi alderman should be vestryman in the above. I'd edit the original if I could.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

The ben Franklyn story...

Why is this story always incomplete?
Yes Franklin proposed the idea, but prayers never took place. Franklin went on to say "with the exception of 3 or 4, most thought prayers unnecessary." (Ferrand, Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, rev. ed., Vol. 1, p. 452.)

Great Chrstians they were back then...

The above is not true - a modified motion carried

The above is not true. A modified motion carried. The original appears to have been modified because it cost money.

But it's always good to look at history with a critical eye - particular when your founders aren't like you. Modern men try to make them like they are atheists because they want them to be like they are - not saved. This seems a bad idea, as the founders were wiser men, not only in creating a governing system, but in the matter of their salvation.
----
Mr. Sherman (from Connecticut) seconded the motion.

Mr. Hamilton and several others expressed their apprehensions that however proper such a resolution might have been at the beginning of the convention, it might at this late day, 1, bring on it some disagreeable animadversions [criticisms], and 2, lead the public to believe that the embarrassments and dissensions within the Convention, had suggested this measure. It was answered by [Dr. Franklin], Mr. Sherman and others, that the past omission of a duty could not justify a further omission, that the rejection of such a proposition would expose the Convention to more unpleasant animadversions than the adoption of it: and that the alarm out of doors that might be excited for the state of things within, would at least be as likely to good as ill.

Mr. Williamson, observed that the true cause of the omission could not be mistaken. The Convention had no funds.

Mr. Randolph proposed in order to give a favorable aspect to the measure, that a sermon be preached at the request of the convention on the 4th of July, the anniversary of Independence; and thenceforward prayers be used in the Convention every morning. Dr. Franklin seconded this motion. After several unsuccessful attempts for silently postponing the matter by adjourning was at length carried, without any vote on the motion.
---

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

End outcomes from

End outcomes from above.

Roger Sherman - only man that sat on and signed all four of our founding documents, and wrote the no legal tender but gold or silver clause in the Constitution, was also known as a Christian scholar, that left behind many religious letters and wrote the charters for his church - is seen motioning the above.

Randolph appears to have gotten his motion, as Washington lead the delegates to the Reformed Calvinist Lutheran Church where a James Campbell preached on good governance.

Within the first two weeks of the first Congress convened in 1789 under the Constitution, two chaplains of different denominations were appointed, one to the House and one to the Senate, with a salary of $500 each.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

I could go on. The statement

I could go on. The statement is not just a little bit wrong, but a gross lie.

This is a long term propaganda campaign. Generally, groups like soviet communists (foreign atheists) or zionists (different religion) has had an interest in pushing it. There may be a few other groups that have put money into it.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

The claim that most of the Founders were deists is false

Nearly all of them were Christians.

“It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till." -J.R.R. Tolkien

this country was founded on

this country was founded on the idea of religious freedom. its not a christian nation. Does not matter if all of the founding fathers were christians. That doesnt make it a christian nation.

As a christian im bothered by the fact that christians are lashing out at the encroachment of state atheism by claiming its "a christian country"

Its one thing to hate the atheists and their motives (there are actually some atheists that dont have motives, but most of the time they dont talk about it because real atheists simply dont care to talk about religion in the first place , where as Modern atheists on the otherhand , believe it or not , are a religion of self entitled individuals who mock those who have faith and furiously try to make the state as secular as possible.

The "seperation of church and state" does not exist in the constitution , what does exist is a few bylaws that state "government shall make no law regarding religion" which literally means that government is constitutionally unable in any form to legislate , regulate , or tax anything related to religion in any form. In otherwords religion is OFF LIMITS to the government in every facet imaginable.somebody did forget to inform mr.obama about this.

The other bylaw is that "there should be no state sanctioned religion" which means the state or government should not have a official religion. Whats happening now is the modern atheists want to instill their "religion" into government as the state held belief system in order to curb "religious legislation" like banning abortion by falling back on this by law. What they dont understand is that the law can not adress who makes up the congress based on their religion , so even if a majority of congress is christian , that doesnt mean we have a "christian government".... As desperately atheists want everyone to believe

It was founded as a Christian nation

But "Christian nation" does NOT mean theocracy like some people think.

“It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till." -J.R.R. Tolkien

Read the treaty of Tripoli

According to the actual people that founded this country, we were not founded as a Christian nation.

The relevant quote

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. "

The athiest usenet FAQ

The athiest usenet FAQ mentions that doesn't appear in the copy that the Muslims have. Considering that's the atheist faq, and we had the war of 1812 in between then, and the Muslims don't have a copy of that - i'll believe the athiest faq. It's a historical forgery, probably some time after 1812.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

It does not matter to your cause

What matters is what the founders signed and what was published in the papers that we still have copies of.....
Ask yourself this, if it was not even in the copy the Muslims had then why include it at all. If anything is supports the fact they believed the statement that we are not a Christian nation.

How about a Bible verse
Hebrews 11
All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

According to the Bible there is no such thing as a Christian Nation

Biblically ignorant buffoons

How about that Bible verse

has to agree with the entire rest of the Bible for it to be taken in context. You yanked that passage waaaaay out of context.

The vast majority of our people at the time of the War for Independence were Christian, and the laws were based largely on the Bible. It was not a Hindu nation, or a Muslim nation, or a secular humanist nation, soooooo.......

You answered your own

You answered your own question. If the Muslim's original copy doesn't have it, it probably never existed in the first place.

We had a war in 1812. Many of our original documents were lost in it.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

We have the copy

We have the Copy unanimously approved by the senate, singed into law by the President, and published in every major news paper.
That copy denies the we are founded as a Christian Nation...
It is not a forgery...
Interesting that trust the Muslims more than your "Christian" founding fathers.

But....

According to a ten-year long study done by the University of Houston of 15,000 writings and speeches by the Founders, 94% of the Founding Fathers’ quotes were quoted, either directly or indirectly, from the Bible. America was irrefutably founded as a Christian nation.

2 Chron 7:13-14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

That is because the Bible is the most read book

Back then Churches were the primary educator as should be now. If you are going to quote something make it something some one if familiar with...
Read Thomas Paine, he schools Christians on the Bible, while being a self proclaimed atheists. He goes on epic Biblical rants, yet rejects the validity of the book.
When you want to communicate you use something common, the Bible was common.

Satan used the Bible to temp Jesus, by your logic he too would be a Christian..
The Mormons use the Bible so do the Jehovah Witnesses are they Christians too?

To clear things up, even David Barton only claims that the study only claims 30% of the quotes came directly or indirectly from the Bible.
Can you produce the study to verify your claims?

It was never founded as a

It was never founded as a christian nation. It was a nation of religious freedom founded by christians. and there is a very big difference

It was founded as a Christian nation (not theocracy where

there isn't freedom of religion) and the structure of our government has roots in Christianity and the Bible.

“It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till." -J.R.R. Tolkien

Yes, we need religious freedom

But it was both the liberty from government oppression and liberty from sin that was in the minds of the founders of the USA. The people were religious and they happened to be Christians

2 Chron 7:13-14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Slavery is not a sin?

You must have a different Bible than me.

Many of the Founders worked against slavery

However some, such as Thomas Jefferson, were unable to free their own slaves due to state laws at the time.

Also you are correct, slavery is a sin. "Slavery" in biblical times was really what we would call indentured servitude today.

“It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till." -J.R.R. Tolkien

Well actually

There are many scriptures in the Bible that seem to justify slavery, and in the Civil War times, these scriptures were the hottest items for debating whether slavery should be legal or not. Abraham Lincoln interpreted the scriptures and made the decision that slavery should be abolished.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_slav1.htm

2 Chron 7:13-14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

"liberty from sin"????

Never heard that before. How'd you come up with that?

John 8:34 says...

Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin"

So if we are slaves to sin, then we need to be liberated from it, and that is done so through the acceptance of Christ as savior

2 Chron 7:13-14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

I'm not condoning a theocracy

But you have to admit, we are built on Judeo-Christian principles, and IMHO, we won't see true liberty until God is restored in the hearts of men.

2 Chron 7:13-14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

There is no such thing as Judeo Christian

Every time some one tries to merge Judaism with Christianity they some weird anti Christ religion. Constantine tried it and came up with Catholicism, Mohamed tried it and came up with Islam, and Joseph smith tried it and came up with Mormonism.

There is no other foundation laid except Christ Jesus. Judaisms is anti Jesus, as is every other false religion

jesus christ of nazareth was

jesus christ of nazareth was a practicing jew who held jewish values.

they are DIRECTLY related

They are only related in the

They are only related in the sense that those that rejected Jesus Christ had the father as their devil.

From that sense, people practicing "judaism" today don't have real jewish values because they rejected the messiah, who is the only one that can get you into the real Jerusalem. God makes you a citizen of that, not you.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

I was thinking of a

I was thinking of a particular verse when I wrote the above. Jewish people were tempted back then too to believe that they are racially special - which is something the New Testament - as well as the Old Testament - said not to believe.

There is only one thing that makes you a Jew, only one way into New Jerusalem - there is only one way to be saved. Jesus Christ alone. He is the Savior and the Lord.

John 8:31-44
31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.