-7 votes

Lets talk about GOD

Some believe - others dont. I believe in logic, reason:

I believe in God based on cause and effect, but I accept that I cannot come to believe something that I have not witnessed - something that holds no facts. 

While I will never be able to say honestly that I believe that Jesus is the son of God, I will also never be able to say that Jesus is not the son of God, because I just dont know. This goes for all religions. I have humbled myself enough to be able to admit that I just do not know. I do, however, try to see the world through the eyes of Jesus. Jesus of compassion, of honor, of love... as I'm sure that I try to see the world through the eyes of other prominent 'prophets', to one degree or another.

Though, all in all, my belief system is not based on a book writen thousands of years ago, or even hundreds of years ago; my belief system is based on liberty, on love and on peace. Things that I've deemed righteous - through logic, reason.

If GOD is as righteous as religions make GOD out to be, then GOD would be enthusiastically understanding, anyways. And if there is a heaven - then GOD would not be justified to leave me out... as opposed to who? Someone just because they were able to buy into a farytale over someone that wasn't? Thats not justice. And if that is GOD's position... then GOD is no better than me. Why should GOD be there. 

'All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry.' - Edgar Allen Poe


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJt7gNi3Nr4

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Origin of the word "God".

if anyone has info pls share. Karen Armstrong has written a book about if, but I think it was for the common noun "god", and it is also written with a capital "G", as in free-Mason lodges.

I doubt if it was ever called by the community in JeruSalem 2000 years ago. Think about it this way - is it permissible ?
For whom is this word being used /called ? Recall the 3rd Command, it (calling falsely) could be worse than what is being restrained.

Define "blasphemy".

Najam

Najam, always the thinker. Najam, always tracing relationships between the physical plane and mental plane going from part to whole and whole to part and inside to outside and outside to inside. Najam, whose sentences are words and symbols always conveying those aforementioned states, conditions and qualities. Najam, always impressing on the reader that language is movement. Najam, a top shelf user of language.

School's fine. Just don't let it get in the way of thinking. -Me

Study nature, not books. -Walton Forest Dutton, MD, in his 1916 book whose subject is origin (therefore what all healing methods involve and count on), simple and powerful.

Top-Shelf: Language and Empire.

A-B--B-A, thanks, I recall your earlier post re Balance, and Logic.
This time too I had to look-up, = "top-shelf".
Language is important when defining terms, just collecting little bits. The 2 links below have very informative articles on the role /influence of languages. In the 1st one the author sympathizes with the eastern perspective.
Language and Empire: My Language, Your Prison, by Dr. Thorsten Pattberg
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=31078

For an understanding of the financial crisis, the dis'balance, the use of trickery (magic?) & manipulation to usurp people's wealth, read - "The Politics of Language and the Language of Political Regression" - by Prof. James Petras
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=31018

caution, its a human (not leftist) perspective, ~ ~

I had posted these links on another thread, posted here for your perusal. Enjoy.

Vids, Magic, Top Shelf, Logic-Balance Comment

Thanks for the vids, Najam. I'll check them out.

Yes, magic, trickery. What's great about language, Najam, is that it, logic's producer, is neutral. It's up to receiver of it to learn it, to comprehend it, then of course share it to stop the actions the language corresponds to if those actions are bad. Great description, Najam -- magic, trickery.

So, do you understand phrase top shelf? I complimented you. :)

Lastly, what caused you to remember my logic-balance comment? That you remember it shows your memory is good and that your brain and probably the rest of you is in good health because that comment was, gees, almost a year ago. (Hijama, it's good to do. Remember, near that time we talked about it too, lol.) Two of two, I'm glad to know I wrote something worth remembering and that appears to have made a good impression.

School's fine. Just don't let it get in the way of thinking. -Me

Study nature, not books. -Walton Forest Dutton, MD, in his 1916 book whose subject is origin (therefore what all healing methods involve and count on), simple and powerful.

re Lingo Tricks.

A-B--B-A, thanks again (]:)> The links I sent are for articles, re use of words /languages, as spells, mantras, incantations to bewilder simple folks - as 'magic' or trickery.

Your name A-B--B-A reminds of logic & balance, you had explained it well. You will recognize the oblique letter "P" (\) is not vertical (|) nor level (-).
P represents dis-balance, disturbs.

Yes, my wrist (fracture) has healed but there is still some stiffness, even after 10 weeks of physio-therapy, usually 2-3 weeks are enough. The Ortho doc put the wrap over the wrist brace too tightly, this hindered the flow of blood, - hence the stiffness in joints & ligaments (its called RSD). Because of it I had to bear pain in the first 4 weeks of physio-therapy.
Hijama, yes, I will go for it- and find the right person who practices it, I am told it has benefits.

Hi, Najam,Just want to

Hi, Najam,

Just want to inform you about few websites you might find helpful for cupping. One is hijamanation(dot)com.

I remember reading this website a year or so ago and on it somewhere is discussion about getting FDA and/or AMA accreditation -- acceptance and regulation/direction. I don't know about you but when I read that, I became sad. Sad for a few reasons, the first being, Dang, now middle easterners especially because of their religious beliefs -- where Allah's Law/Natural Law is above man made law, government, so I think -- consider permission from something besides the individual they interact with are needed to perform goodness. That, despite that they, those people on hijamanation, have done good without external permission other than that of the individual's and that all they need to do is continue doing what they have been doing: perform, educate, perform, educate. That doing retains this act, this therapy, where it's been since its first use long ago: in the hand's of the thinking and acting individual.

If this simple therapy goes under direction of authority, nothing else I can think of with cupping's effects will be available for the individual to do for himself. And this therapy's effectiveness is far better than many treatments credentialed people such as doctors offer. I'm glad this therapy still is how it is, "unregulated." I put unregulated in quotes because it is regulated -- by the individual, freedom's regulation, God's regulation, Allah's regulation, any High Being's regulation, a regulation that encourages the individual to think and act for himself. I'm glad this therapy is in freedom's (read: the individual's) market, sphere, control.

Check out the name Anita Shannon on YouTube. She's the founder of ACE Massage Cupping and has three websites she sells her machine on, cuppingtherapy, acemassagecupping and another one I don't recall.

She demonstrates cupping using manual and automated devices. Regarding her machine, she talks favorably about people using this machine on themselves, which makes me happy, but in one of her videos I noticed she discussed the machine being used by doctors and other people with similar credentials as if to augment this machine's usefulness or importance. I perceive that talk-up as irrelevant and dangerous. As well, I recall her or someone interviewing her who said if this machine becomes used among more people with credentials, it could be "accepted" in mainstream medicine, which translates to government or agency regulation.

This acceptance is because it's a machine, just because it's a machine. Yes, perhaps the machine offers a couple benefits more than a manual cupping set, but is it the benefits or merely that the device requires electricity to operate that opens it up for government or agency regulation? Neither benefit nor electricity are grounds for it to be regulated by anyone other than the individual. On the course of ill gotten regulation, should the government or an "industry agency" regulate toasters? Where does authoritarian regulation end?

So, if you see a USA therapist from Hijama Nation, please talk sense into him or her. Teach him that what he's doing is denying the opportunity to travel the path he took to attain the knowledge he has. That path is freedom. Teach him freedom, which is to say teach him voluntary individualism, something I thought is the foundation of all religions and what their members taught.

Well, if you have questions or anything else, Najam, just drop them here. Take care and see you around.

PS. Wet cupping is best. Really, anyone can teach himself cupping. Anyone can cup. I hope you get yourself a cupping set, manual or automated. Although manual is more helpful than automated in a couple circumstances. Automated is great if you have someone to perform cupping on you.

School's fine. Just don't let it get in the way of thinking. -Me

Study nature, not books. -Walton Forest Dutton, MD, in his 1916 book whose subject is origin (therefore what all healing methods involve and count on), simple and powerful.

Hijama = (Cupping)

A-B--B-A, many thanks for the useful info. let us hope it remains unregulated by govt. their interference is not helpful, most of the times.
best wishes & salaam.

I don't follow religion

first of all there is no absolute proof of God's existence, so why worry about it and also why submit to another goverment, religion is used to socially conform people to what the elites either in the world or their faith want of them. i think it teaches people to not think for themselves, to not be independent and to do things without question because some book or person in a robe told them to do it, killing logic. the way some religions portray god, they portray god as a tyrant and the point of our movement was not to submit to tyranny so why submit to this. The reason i don't follow a faith is basically no proof that i have to and i value my freedom and refuse to conform.

Are you absolutely sure there is no God?

I will not advocate that you submit to or follow a man or pope, but to the God of the Bible! Where do you think Liberty comes from? Who grants you the right to Life, Liberty,and Property But God himself? If you were to want to seek out infomation on the subject being agnostic as you hinto.. May I suggest a intriguing book? "God doesn't believe in Athiests" by Ray Comfort. If nothing els it will give you a good laugh.

Thanks for taking the time to read my response.
Seek_Truth

“Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure than they have it now, They may change their Rulers and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty. They will only exchange Tyrants and Tyrannies.”

~ John Adams
Letter to Zabdiel Adams (21 June 1776)

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” ~ James Madison

“And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.” Psalms 119:45 (KJB)

Seek_Truth

Yes

The work of man:

http://www.bibletruthkeys.com/bible_translated.htm

If I disappear from a discussion please forgive me. My 24-7 business requires me to split mid-sentence to serve them. I am not ducking out, I will be back later to catch up.

God Made Jesus To Be Sin

http://christianwarmongers.com/?page_id=50

God Made Jesus To Be Sin
Shocking! Vulgar! Distasteful!

Jesus Christ, God’s sinless son, covered with all the filthy deeds of degenerate mankind! Who would dare?

God dared—dared—to give the life of his son in payment for your lost soul.

BUT WHY DID JESUS HAVE TO TAKE OUR SIN TO HIMSELF BEFORE HE COULD FORGIVE US?

To die in our place, Jesus had to become exactly what we are—SIN. We have saturated our lives with selfishness, lust, pride, resentment, bitterness, and hostility. Can you look in the mirror and praise what you see? God sees much deeper, and is very displeased.

THE BIBLE SAYS OF US: “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23).

“There is none that doeth good, no, not one” (Rom. 3:12).

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man” (Mark 7:21-23). Your very thoughts have defiled you. You are what you think. Every vile act began as a thought. You are no better than your thoughts, and without God may one day become as bad.

God judges more than the act, he also judges the intentions of the heart.

God sees the lust in your heart as being adultery. “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart” (Matt. 5:28).

God sees the hate in your heart as murder. “But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment…but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire” (Matt. 5:22). God records every sin to be used against you in the Day of Judgment. You have built an airtight case against yourself. Have you ever wondered what your record (all your thoughts included) might look like so far? Would you be ashamed for your mother to read it? “Be sure your sin will find you out” (Numbers 32:23).

“For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing” (Eccl. 12:14).

“It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Heb. 9:27). Eternal death is the consequence of sin. “The wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23).

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:4).

God will return “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power” (2 Thess. 1:8–9).

“BUT WHY DOES GOD HAVE TO GET SO ANGRY AND DAMN EVERYONE OVER A FEW LITTLE SINS?”

It is our attitude that sin is “little” or of no significance that makes us blameworthy and damnable in God’s sight.

If God did not intervene, sin would still end in death. You have seen sin strangle love, shatter the family, stab friends in the back, mock things that really matter, turn its back on compassion, lie to the conscience, and knowingly do the very things that bring regret in the morning.

God has promised to put an end to sin. He has condemned sin and everything associated with it, including the earth we are living on. Sin eternally separates one from God. As long as you are engaged in sin you are the enemy of God, and are destined for destruction.

HELL IS A REAL PLACE

“So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth” (Matt. 13:49–50).

God did not create Hell to satisfy his anger but to satisfy his holiness. HELL IS EARTH’S JUNK YARD, THE HAZARDOUS WASTE DUMP OF THE UNIVERSE. It is the black hole that finally sucks in all that is rebellious, unkind, proud, lustful, and destructive.

Even in the eternal torment of The Lake of Fire, sinners will not repent. Their hatred for God and all that is righteous will grow with the passing of centuries. May God help you repent now, before your heart gets too hard.
But God Made A Way

Knowing the awful damnation we would suffer, God devised a method to save us.

Compelled by his love, Jesus Christ stepped out of eternity and into time and space. He reduced himself to human flesh and entered the world by the womb of a virgin. Thirty-three years later, before leaving this planet, he dressed himself in our sins and became a sacrifice to God by bleeding to death on a Roman cross.

THE CROSS WAS A SLAUGHTER.

Christ was first given 39 lashes from a “cat of nine tails” (a whip with nine leather straps, each bearing a cutting instrument at the end) providing a potential of 351 lacerations. He was blindfolded and beaten beyond recognition. They pulled out his beard and placed a crown of thorns on his head. With mocking hostility, the religious in the crowd spit into the blood that streamed down his face.

As he stood in silence, the greatest pain was not the thorns scratching his skull or the flesh dangling from his back; IT WAS THE SHAME OF OUR SIN.

He Took Your Place.

ALL SINS of ALL PERSONS, past and future, were laid on Christ. HE BORE THEM SO INTIMATELY, THAT THE BIBLE SAYS HE BECAME SIN. He “despised the shame,” but for our salvation he “endured the cross.” Imagine! The most pure and holy taking the place of the most impure and unholy!

“He (God) hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us” (2 Cor. 5:21).

“Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree” (1 Pet. 2:24).

“The LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all” (Isa. 53:6).

“Thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin” (Isa. 53:10).

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh” (I Pet. 3:18).

CHRIST’S ARMS WERE NAILED WIDE OPEN TO RECEIVE ALL WHO WILL COME TO GOD FOR FORGIVENESS.

Do You Believe This Good News?

He did it all for you, rotten filthy you.

If you desire God, and you believe with all your heart, your sins are all forgiven. “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

It is not religion. It is the person Jesus. Trust him. Love him. Follow him. As you believe this good news your sins are forgiven and God will change your life. Find some place to get alone and thank God for being your Savior.

Seek_Truth

What if God is act, not fact.

If there is no unconditioned reality, if everything is natural that is conditioned through and through, then it is impossible for you to be free.

See my reply to Octobox.
http://www.dailypaul.com/238336/where-it-all-went-wrong-what...

Free includes debt-free!

I find it strange ...

That for all the faith you Christians put in your doctrine, I have asked over 3000 of you (including 30-40 pasotrs , etc)what the 2nd commandment is, and not ONE has EVER answered correctly. PERIOD. Now I can't see you when you pull out the 'good book' and look it up, so i'll just say you can't BS me, you know you don't know, and realize I obviously do, so just ask yourself WHY? And I'm not going to explain why several of you will have different answers, even AFTER you Compare the Passages you have to look up. BUT, I can tell you there is a reason for your ignorance, and it has to do with the FACT that the GODS said "let US go down amongst them". And another hint: 'Host' is a real clear word with only one meaning. So is 'Lord'. Lord of Hosts. I'd love to school you all day long about how much knowledge your book contains that you are missing, but, you'll have to get the first clue before I can tell you the next, and I'm going to start taking a collection ( feel free to tithe if you wish) for the enlightening:@) When I think of a name for the cult I'll post it, Something to do with " those in the light" Illuminate has a meaning too, but that cult doesn't share. Let me know when you find out why the second most important commandment is now a conspiracy theory:@)

Share this:

http://youtu.be/yuC_4mGTs98

I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility to every form of tyranny over the mind of man.

Many people tend to have a

The honorific title "God," or "Image of God," was often giving to a man on earth who was a king. Anyone ever what "made in our image meant?"

Our Image - He here is refering to his court, who ruled above the other angels(if not more).

Made in our image meant that man was meant to rule, we were not to be slaves to anyone, including God himself. We had the will to worship Him or not.

Many people tend to have a problem with it defined as "Gods", but he is indeed talking about the angels.

However if you want to also talk about other things it can reference, when men talk about King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Gods among Gods, they are in fact speaking of the idols (or real leaders of the time) which other men refered to as gods.

You can debate all day about whether they are true gods in the sense of the word.

God held his counsil in a court, in my mind, much like they did in a palace. Jury on the left and right, Judge in the middle, with perhaps one or two men sitting below him on his left and right. Or in the case of a King or Queen, one to the left or right.

Satan (Hebrew: הַשָּׂטָן ha-Satan), "the opposer"

or basically "The Accuser" described as a prosecutor in a court.

When he is speaking "let us go do things" he is refering to his court. Which it even states was held on earth before the fall of man.

I can get the scripture to back all this up if need be, but it usually takes me a few hours and i dont feel like spending the time just yet haha.

Also, the 10 Commandments, although followed by Christians, are more of a Jewish thing, so the fact that they couldnt answer you doesnt really mean much. Christians, a derogatory term meaning "Christ follower", usually focus mostly on the New Testament and not the Old Testament, for way of life, and rules.

Thanks for the imput

My point is that christian's who would demand the commandments in courthouses and schools and profess to teach and live by them, do not themselves know this particular one. The most basic rules of the most popular religion in our country, and I have NEVER met one christian ( or Jew) that could name it!!! Isn't that entirely too odd? I mean i ask them all too. Every single time religion is ever brought up. Can you? Try it yourself, if you run into any, it will likely be because i made them look it up! I don't think you have it yet. And for all you did say, did you address the word 'host'?

I know what I'm talking about, they are among us. Try a little Ahuasca, see for yourself. :@)

thanks again, I assume many more can't even figure out what it is, and if they do brush it off as archaic nonsense, to justify their utter ignorance. Question is ... Why the ban? What harm could it do?

Don't get me started on the new testament, I'd have to go get my Greek interlinear. But I can tell you why the Devil was in the desert:@)

Share this:

http://youtu.be/yuC_4mGTs98

I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility to every form of tyranny over the mind of man.

Truthfully

I have heard this arguement before haha, a highschooler asked me a few years back, "what is the 2nd commandment" and said that most Christian's can't name them.

As for "what harm could it do"

I believe its a spiritual thing.
Ive studied this a bit myself and i came to the conclusion that theres 2 types of sins, Physical sin such as "Murder" and Spiritual sin such as "Adultery"

Although no real "physical harm," from adultery, could become you at the time, it was a sin against the spirit of another.

As for idols i found this quote on idols which had source numbers i removed.
This quote was taken from wikipedia on Adultery in the Bible:

"The prophets Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Hosea indicate that God viewed Israel’s worship of idols as spiritual adultery. This led to a broken covenant between them and “divorce,” manifested as defeat by an enemy nation followed by exile, from which the northern kingdom never recovered. This spiritual adultery was apparently accompanied by the prevalence of physical adultery as well."

brad . .

the 2nd is
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

correct?

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

Yep, why the prohibition?

And did you have to look it up?

Share this:

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I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility to every form of tyranny over the mind of man.

i did

have to look it up.

Prohibition. God is a jealous God correct?

Jackson County Georgia

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.
Thomas Jefferson

BMWJIM's picture

LET'S NOT!

.)

1976-1982 USMC, Having my hands in the soil keeps me from soiling my hands on useless politicians.

Jay-Z & Kanye West are Satanist NWO ....mm.. servants.

BTW: Jay-Z & Kanye West are NWO scum... They are part of the machine...

Don't get fooled by propaganda...

Heres a youtube about Jay-Z
Illuminati in Symbolism JayZ- United Nations
http://youtu.be/xP8cjMwLsbQ

Seek_Truth

Thanks, My Friend

Just brilliant.

___________________________________________________________________________
"Bipartisan: both parties acting in concert to put both of their hands in your pocket."-Rothbard

God Damn News Flash

This stuff is just plain hokey. I love you all but this religious stuff about Jesus dying for sins, Noah, healings, walking on water...NON SENSE.

"The son of God" and "Jesus died for our sins"???????? What does this stuff even mean? Such un-practical nonsense. It means nothing.

Organized religion has hijacked the unknown and used it to control people and to cover unimaginable atrocities. And it's not even an ancient phenomenon. It's happening TODAY.

A typical religious response when someone points this out is to attribute all that is Good to religion! The nonsense just gets deeper and deeper!

We've never needed the bible or religion in order to figure these things out. I was a child and never got sucked into this stuff. And guess what???? I figured out how to be good without the bible or jesus! Imagine that!

Here's the kicker: Religion is used as cover for things like war because the powers that be know the FLOCK does not have the ability to question their own beliefs in The WORD. All they have to do is tie in religion some how and viola!

I did believe for most of my life that I was a Christian. I figured "I'm a pretty good guy...I must be Christian". I just assumed this was the case. I never even considered that I had the option of "NOT BELIEVING" and that I was good because I was human and had good parents. When I realized that I HAVE THE CHOICE of NOT BELIEVING...an entire world opened up. Things made sense. It made sense that "A Christian Nation" could be responsible for the biggest atrocities of modern time. It made sense that high level "Christians" would molest children and the Pope would help cover it up. It made sense that the Flock would defend their religion by staking claim to goodness & love. Why did it make sense? Because religion is used to control people more then it's used for good.

Sure, all religions will do good stuff most of the time. But when religion is used for bad...watch out...because it's A MONSTER.

I would suggest that anyone who believes in Jesus and all the miraculous stuff we've heard about him over the past few thousand years...just take a second to consider NOT BELIEVING. Imagine that you simply do not believe in Jesus the savior or the institutions of religion like the Catholic church. Are you worse off? Are you suddenly weak? Have you suddenly lost the ability to love you neighbor? Are you suddenly un-able to devote time & money to charities & help the needy?

You're more free without religion. That is what I believe. Sorry to be so blatantly anti-religious...but I am. There's just no need for it and it's easily hijacked for bad.

The problem you mention is only problem with state religion

I am sure if you look close most of your problems with "religion" is problems with the catholic church which is still a state church in dozens of countries.Right now we have far more problems with public school teachers molesting kids than we do with catholic priest molesting kids.
A lot of our problems with the neo cons is from the fact that a lot of neo cons like bill orielly and hanity are catholics that grew up in catholic school (not to mention santorum). This is not saying all cathlics are bad but the catholic church has an agenda to make the whole world catholic, not because of religion but because its profitable, a lot of catholic leadership do not believe anything that they say they believe and it is well documented by people like charles chiniquy in his book "fifty years in the church of rome".

I also dont understand how the war on terror is based on religion when its obvious if you talk to anybody they are scarred to death of another terrorist attack, no religion, just childish boogy man fear.

I grew up in a christian home that always taught you have a choice of believing or not believing. See Christ does not have grandchildren you have to make the choice of whether you are going to accept him as savior or not.

Finally I know several men who have been alcoholics and drug addicts who came to Christ who have not touched any of their addictions since.

With the very breath that it takes to speak the words of denying

With the very breath that it takes to speak the words of denying him, you are acknowledging Him. When you preach "liberty," you are preaching one of the most vital parts of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

"He did not come into the world to condemn it, but to save it." - John 3:17

"Well, you know it's like I always say 'it ain't government work if you don't have to do it twice.'" - Jerry Gergich

I'm fine with your comment

I'm fine with your comment just as long as you recognize that Liberty does not come from Jesus. He may have preached about it and so have many others like Ron Paul and myself even. But he doesn't own it and if the belief in Jesus / religion never even existed...well...the idea of LIBERTY would not be less than what it is today. I'd argue it would be MORE than what it is today.

Jesus Christ is Liberty without Him there is no Liberty!

"Those who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants." – William Penn

“Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure than they have it now, They may change their Rulers and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty. They will only exchange Tyrants and Tyrannies.”

~ John Adams (21 June 1776)

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” ~ James Madison

“And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.” Psalms 119:45

FYI: I am not advocating what people refer to as "Organizrd Religion" but the God of the Bible!

“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” - Noah Webster

“If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.” Proverbs 29:12 (KJB)

Seek_Truth

Well said, and I respect your opinions.

Where I would differ is that I do believe that liberty comes from Jesus, because I believe John 1:1-18.

There is a song by Shane & Shane, called Liberty (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MipmxHPbZF8) that says it better than I ever could. If you listen to the words, you'll see begin to see how it is the very heart of Christianity. It is rather (or should I say, EXTREMELY) unfortunate that most Christians just don't get it, and thus vote for the social-conservative neocon.

Like I said, your comment was very well said, and I definitely respect your opinion... and I will add that I am thankful to be on the same 'team' with you, regardless of our differences on religion, because you clearly think. And that may be the thing that unifies all Paul supporters: we may disagree, but we think. lol

"He did not come into the world to condemn it, but to save it." - John 3:17

"Well, you know it's like I always say 'it ain't government work if you don't have to do it twice.'" - Jerry Gergich

Big Time

"regardless of our differences on religion, because you clearly think. And that may be the thing that unifies all Paul supporters: we may disagree, but we think."

Big time. I've been thinking about this off and on since I posted these comments on religion. I've been thinking about how people so seemingly opposite in thought are coming together and how there is something we have in common that kind of supersedes disagreements. It's going to be a colorful gathering in Tampa and beyond as more and more people catch on and join the choir.