Should Ron Paul Supporters Apply for Food Stamps?
Submitted by Anti-Panda Prop... on Sat, 06/02/2012 - 08:41(edit)
With the recent 'controversy' over Dr. Paul receiving and accepting his Social Security Insurance payments, I've 'bumped' this thread back into the conversation:
QUESTION:
Should Ron Paul supporters apply for food stamps, housing assistance, energy assistance, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera???
(Previous content referencing Atlas Shrugged has been submitted as a comment below)
http://www.dailypaul.com/237450/should-ron-paul-supporters-a...
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im not saying that
I do not plan on receiving S.S. I'm just saying that I do not see an ethical issue with wanting to see the money, that you were told you would see again, back. I think the govt should pay all the money it stole from me back. Now what would be unethical for me to be ok with them stealing from someone else to get it back to me.
Séamusín
Stigma?
I appreciate the high quality arguments for and against, ESP the restitution, you paid for it...
But if you are a decent, capable and loving person than the idea should make you feel terrible, ESP as a libertarian, unless you are purposefully gaming and scamming the system out of intent to destroy it.
Nice people also tend to have friends and family that will rush to help in serious times of need.
If food stamps are to exist at all, they need to be last resorts for the mentally ill, disabled, and the unloved/despicable, and the stigma as such should be feature of the benefit.
It's a good subject for chatting about at a cocktail party, but hopefully not for libertarians to actually do with any good effect.
Currently consuming: Free Domain Radio; Virtue of Selfishness; Human action;
Stigma?
I appreciate the high quality arguments for and against, ESP the restitution, you paid for it...
But if you are a decent, capable and loving person than the idea should make you feel terrible, ESP as a libertarian, unless you are purposefully gaming and scamming the system out of intent to destroy it.
Nice people also tend to have friends and family that will rush to help in serious times of need.
If food stamps are to exist at all, they need to be last resorts for the mentally ill, disabled, and the unloved/despicable, and the stigma as such should be feature of the benefit.
It's a good subject for chatting about at a cocktail party, but hopefully not for libertarians to actually do with any good effect.
Currently consuming: Free Domain Radio; Virtue of Selfishness; Human action;
No
Only because what kind of mindset this will lead to. What will happen if some of these programs are cut? Will someone become a socialist then?
Are these 'gateway Rx' to socialism?
Do not worry there will most likely very minimal SS payments in the next several decades anyway if any at all. RP's generation would of used most of the funds up by then anyway. They are the last fortunate generation. Lesser inflation, less tax, jobs, less regs, good schools, good food, fewer monopolies, etc.
What would it have been like to buy a cup of coffee for a nickel? What would of it cost to make it at home? lol
Oh, there were hardly any programs in place.
donvino
I'm uncomfortable with this
I've thought about this for years. I have lived my life as privately as possible, taking advantage of no government funded programs if I could possibly avoid it. I wanted to live my life as free of dependency on government as possible.
There are things that are difficult to avoid. Mandatory schooling forced us to use public schools for a few years. Roads are nearly all paid for with taxes. The medical industry is heavily subsidized by government. Nevertheless, I take great pride in knowing that I did what I could to minimize my participation in the tax funded world.
The private cost of avoiding government has been huge. Governments, at all levels, steal about 40% of my income every year. Income tax, payroll tax, Soc. Security, sales tax, property tax, excise taxes, etc. are my biggest expenses, by far. Additionally, I've paid for education, insurance, and periods of unemployment out of my own pocket, so in a sense I paid twice. Once for the government program, once privately.
I would like to use the argument that I am entitled to get some of my money back by taking advantage of government programs, but I understand that whatever the government has taken from me it has already spent. "My" money is gone. If I find myself in a position of needing government assistance for food, medicine, housing, heat, etc., I know that the money they give me will have been stolen from someone else. I have no right to do that to another person.
Still, I can see that possibility coming up. After decades of impoverishing me with their forced extractions, they will leave me with little choice. Like Harry Browne used to say, governments are great a breaking your leg, then handing you a pair of crutches and telling you how lucky you are they were there to 'help' you.
I do not blame anyone for taking government money if they need it to live. I just hope I can avoid that situation, and if I can't, then I want to delay it for as long as possible. The day I take my first government check, I will feel diminished as a human being.
Sure, if there is no other
alternative.
There's More Honor in Begging Than in Stealing
But, if stealing is the only way to feed your family, there's more honor in doing it yourself than hiring someone else (government) to do it for you.
The average response in this thread is stunning. If this is where we're at, then all is lost.
Pretty Much...
...as I see it, too.
There are as many rationalizations, justifications, excuses and 'sob-story' arguments for government handouts, than one would expect to see in the collectivist congress, white house and federal bureaucracies combined.
There are individual hard-luck cases and sad stories everywhere and if one rationalizes government excess based on those, or on their own circumstances, rather than the larger principle and necessary limitations on government, well....
A 'liberty-movement' populated as this one is, will gain nothing but a different version of what we already are plagued with.
People oppose bailouts until they need em.
I have no problem taxing people, but not to bailout you or I, nor any of these duplicitous freeloaders.
Public roads are a form of compensation we all benefit from and they serve our liberty. Food stamps are a way of bailing people out (which causes moral hazard) and as you can tell from many of the people here, their moral code isn't really a moral code at all. They have no integrity to their principles.
A phony Libertarian will laugh about feeding at the public trough because they never intended to adhere to their moral code and abandon their principles when they need a bailout.
There are different ways to fight this...
First of all, we tried as hard as we could to get a man of liberty elected. We gave our time, effort and money but we lost BIG time.
It's obvious the country doesn't want liberty.
There's nothing more we can do to turn things around. Why? Because we are no longer ignorant of who runs things.
It's the banking/military/industrial complex which extend BEYOND the U.S.
It's the foreign aid we give by the billions each year while our own country struggles with solvency.
It's much bigger than any of us can imagine.
So...There are different ways to fight.
While the one I'm suggesting goes against every fiber of our beings, it is an effective way to fight back.
Take your Social Security, food stamps, unemployment, Medicare, Medicaid etc etc etc.
Help break the system from another angle.
Just hold your breath and proceed.
Agree with all the liberals you know, No more arguments. Just agree with everyone that big-government is the answer.
More wars, occupations and interventions are a great idea for America.
Agree with them that sure, war is great for the economy.
Hell, tell them we should occupy EVERY country.
We SHOULD police the world.
Then just quietly take the money (of which you've paid into the government all your life).
And lastly, top it off with fully agreeing that Ron Paul and his followers were all a bunch of KOOKS and conspiracy theorists.
"We have allowed our nation to be over-taxed, over-regulated, and overrun by bureaucrats. The founders would be ashamed of us for what we are putting up with."
-Ron Paul
Anyway, looks like dear friend Joe won't need to apply for them
Anyway, looks like dear friend Joe won't need to apply for them any time soon :
http://www.dailypaul.com/279235/joe-biden-runs-up-bill-of-58...
My name's pronounced like "see real". Its root is "Lord".
"The demand of a great people is always at the scale of its most serious misfortunes." --De Gaulle
http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty
This is semantics, perhaps....
This is the question asked in the wrong way. Since I paid taxes, everything i receive from government is mine: be it my tax refund or any payout.
There is nothing wrong in getting your own money back.
This is a crazy question
And No-
food stamps are not bad for those who's only other alternative is to starve. If you qualify for them then you will get them BUT if you do not need them you do not qualify for them. Capice?
Stop playing silly games with real life issues.
Ron Paul is da man.
Gee, What a Surprise...
...not!
Those who fail to 'walk the talk' and who seem to be lacking in personal integrity & ethics, are replete within this 'vaunted' liberty-movement.
The 'liberty-movement' is, however, absolutely infested with compromizers, rationalizers & justifiers.
Fact is, there will be nothing that comes from such a movement but a version or degree of what we already have.
Nice....
Fact is
http://www.policymic.com/articles/12960/ron-paul-and-ayn-ran...
STAND WITH RAND 2016
And?
It seems as of the author of the article gets the point.
That said, in an earlier post I drew somewhat of a distinction between socialist security and the other govt freebies being discussed, such as energy assistance, food stamps, housing assistance, etc...
I do not support socialist security or condone those who use it, but that particular govt program is a direct taking for a direct benefit, so it has been set aside by me from my general discussion due to it being somewhat more complex.
A mini-rant, not directed at you...
That said, who cares what Ayn Rand or Ron Paul did?
I am thoroughly sick of having what Ron Paul said, did or would say or do, thrown up as if a shield or some impenetrable barrier from being wrong.
If Ron Paul humped a sheep or a child, would that somehow be a defense or a valid excuse, rationalization or justification for doing so?
Of course not, so why even go there?
Oh, wait, I forgot that this tactic is used frequently around here to rationalize things that would otherwise be seen as questionable or flat-wrong.
Mini-rant off...
The principle is simple, the government excess is clear, the acceptance of any of it by someone does not change that, it merely shows where certain people fail to walk the talk.
It really is as simple as that.
The issue comes into play when rationalization & justification are required as cover and then the action requires a lengthy dissertation and/or some lofty, professorial treatise to make it seem okay.
You should receive every form
You should receive every form of 'assistance' from the government that you are capable of receiving. This is for many reasons.
1. If you do not, you lose your competitiveness in a world where everyone else will.
2. If you do not test the limits of these government programs we will never know the full extent of their legitimacy.
3. Nothing in libertarian ideology says that it's "immoral to receive a benefit." The argument is that it's immoral for those structures to exist in the first place, not that they shouldn't be used if they already do.
4. There are more government initiated factors working against you than for you and it would be foolish to not seek to equalize or reverse that.
5. Your own personal abstinence from using them will not make them cease to exist.
You are the Very Definition of a "Free Rider"
bump
Also
That's a pretty absurd statement considering you don't know anything about me. Do you know what forms of government assistance I qualify for or have accepted? Do you know how much I put in versus how much I get out?
I'm sure it's very satisfying to insult a stranger that you disagree with. Maybe somebody less impetuous would explain themselves instead of being purposefully brief.
The problem is that you don't understand
that your argument is the exact same in principle as, "Well if you think the government shouldn't maintain roads, you shouldn't drive on the roads."
It doesn't make any sense and is an absurd conclusion.
As in my list of reasons, there is NOTHING in libertarian ideology that says, "You must pretend the world already works as you wish it would." Libertarian ideology is concerned only with how the government should function.
The government essentially operates a perpetual adhesion contact against the populace. Imagine if you had an adhesion contract governing your access to water - some entity charged you an absurd amount just to drink some water. Not only that, in this contract your money is taken from you to pay for your ration whether you take the ration or not, and perhaps most importantly, you never actually consented to the contract in the first place.
Of course you disagree with the idea that someone should lord over water and charge you unreasonable quantities to have any, and of course you disagree that you should be party to a contract you never consented to - but your opinion on the matter changes nothing right now. Does that mean you should opt out from the system and not receive your water, because you disagree, despite that it is your only option and despite that you have already paid more than your dues?
No, it means that you should be an activist to the extent that you can to change the situation but that there are clearly more reasons than one why you should accept that water.
Frédéric Bastiat - The Law .
Frédéric Bastiat - The Law . From what I gathered from this book. Its to late to fix anything by simply not accepting food stamps. we (rich and poor) have been fighting to abuse laws for far to long now. I however will never get them. though out of the 40 or 50 college credits I have I did get a pell grant one semester. I would advise you to take everything you can from them though, not like the money is real anyways, why hasnt something crazy happened yet..
Yes
Yes I think it alright to be a Ron Paul supporter and receive food stamps! We cannot stop it, so you might as well use it if needed! Lots of illegal's are getting them so why be against American's that need them?
You sound like a bunch of Leftist trolls. lol.
Is this the Daily Paul or BarackObama.com?
When the rubber hits the road, all your talk flies out the window and you'll do whatever-it-takes to feed yourself. (except create something of value.) I wonder how many of the people here who'd be cool with food stamps say things like "all taxation is theft"?
No, they shouldn't, and I wouldn't. It's not about pride. It's about principles. Hunger can teach many lessons well worth learning.
ALL taxes are theft
and given the chance to get some of my stolen
money back i would use foodstamps or any other program out there
that used my money to fund them
deacon
IS AN A-NARCHIST ONE WHO PRACTICES THE ART OF SQUEALING?
Don't blame the government anymore.
People get the government they deserve don't they? Don't blame the government anymore... Blame yourself. I wonder what YOU would become if you were surrounded by a covetous mob begging you to serve injustice? (You'd become a looter, a slaver, a butcher too.)
They need us more than we need them. Nobody needs Libertarians to win more than those in power. They're on their knees BEGGING you to win the debate.
Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Really?
Shows that you don't understand the concept of what Romans 13 really means, here is one of the best explanations of it. http://www.infowars.com/?p=3572
I do agree with your very first part though, we have a government that we deserve, but it's up to us to change it back. Education is the Key to this, and holding the Politicians, Media, and others in "Authority" accountable.
"Never be afraid to raise your voice for honesty and truth and compassion against injustice and lying and greed. If people all over the world...would do this, it would change the earth. "
— William Faulkner
twitter.com/@Battleforce3327
a point of contention
we have the best gov money can buy,bought and paid for
with our own tax dollars,take a look at how many get
campaign funds from the big boys
here is just one example obama and romney both had the same
funders(the ones who got our bailout tax money)
them congresscritters have the lowest rating in history
and yet the same ones get re-elected
i say we got the best for the powers that be,and these work against the people they swore to listen to,and to uphold our laws
they do neither
2 that i have of heard so far have said,they received more than enough phonecalls to not vote for them bailouts,but did it anyways
is this a representation of the will of the people? or for some others?
deacon
IS AN A-NARCHIST ONE WHO PRACTICES THE ART OF SQUEALING?
Sorry. Alex Jones is NOT a good man.
And infowars.com is about the last place I'd go for spiritual advice or guidance.
Alex preys on people through their hate by telling them they're surrounded by chemically lobotomized retards and he tempts them through their pride by telling them the world is controlled by "elites"(PUKE).
He's tempting YOU to think of yourself as "an elite" and I see the result of what he offers people WELL represented here at the DP. He knows people want to feel enlightened, like they're becoming 'something more'. It's an unjust desire that he's fostering, and one he knows is a lie.
It's not intelligence that gets you past the gate, and trust me, there aren't any "elites" here at the DP.
Never Trust a Man that says "Trust Me"
The article wasn't written by Alex Jones,(if you would have actually went to the site, you would have seen that)and Everything within it is verifiable through other commentaries, if you would take the time to do the research.
I know that those of us here on the DP are not "Elites", however there are times it seems like some give that impression. And Yes, Knowledge will help get you past "that gate" that keeps We The People in bondage, but it must be followed up by Actions.
"Never be afraid to raise your voice for honesty and truth and compassion against injustice and lying and greed. If people all over the world...would do this, it would change the earth. "
— William Faulkner
twitter.com/@Battleforce3327
"total submission to government"
"if you would have actually went to the site, you would have seen that"
I did, and I stopped reading when I got to the part about "total submission to government". Beyond that point I didn't see any value in the article, because I didn't tell you to submit to government. I told you to pay your taxes, and to stop blaming government. People get the government they deserve.
Submit yourself to God, not Government.
PS "Trust me" - So you think there ARE elites here at the Daily Paul?
Come on... Be honest... You consider yourself "an elite"(PUKE) don't you? The rest of these people are chemically lobotomized retards and sheep submitting to government aren't they, and elites like you should have your proper place in the world?