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Should Ron Paul Supporters Apply for Food Stamps?

(edit)

With the recent 'controversy' over Dr. Paul receiving and accepting his Social Security Insurance payments, I've 'bumped' this thread back into the conversation:

QUESTION:

Should Ron Paul supporters apply for food stamps, housing assistance, energy assistance, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera???

(Previous content referencing Atlas Shrugged has been submitted as a comment below)

http://www.dailypaul.com/237450/should-ron-paul-supporters-a...



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Should we use public roads?

If the programs are there and you qualify, then use the programs. The rules are as such and so follow the rules.

grant

If someone steals a Porsche and offers it to you,

do you take it?

YES! You DO take the Porsche because the government...

...STOLE IT FROM YOU.

That's the whole point of accepting these government "benefits" because if you're an average American, you've paid into the system for years or decades (as I have).

For example, years ago (I'm 56 now) petitioned the Social Security Administration for all my money back (nearly $80,000 at that time) and in return I would never ask for a penny when I retire.

But they said no - I couldn't do that.

They hope you die befor collecting any or all of it.

And if you look at the obituaries on any given day, you'll see that lots of people die before reaching the age of eligibility for Socialist Security.

That is utter THEFT they're getting away with.

So take whatever you can now because you might not wake up tomorrow.

"We have allowed our nation to be over-taxed, over-regulated, and overrun by bureaucrats. The founders would be ashamed of us for what we are putting up with."
-Ron Paul

Accepting goods that were stolen from someone else doesn't make

the fact that you were stolen from (by the same people I might add) any better.

It's the whole "two wrongs" idea.

Each is an act of theft.

In this case, accepting the loot is a wrong itself because you justify and encourage the continuation of the theft. You are truly, a consumer of stolen goods that has created a market for theft. You make theft profitable.

And for the record - you've NEVER 'paid into' ANYTHING by paying taxes.

You are never owed anything in return. That's not what taxes are or how they work.

You simply paid a tax and Congress spent it. The end.

Not logical.

Why would anyone arbitrarily reject food stamps? If the system is there, then use it. You use public roads, don't you? Public airports? What about the currency you use, FRNs aren't they? Or, do you only use gold and silver or barter when trading? It is literally and physically impossible to reject public services; so use them until the system fails. The Soviets did and when the system crashed those who were prepared rose to the top. With food stamps you get to decide how you spend the money. A wise person might even purchase food items that can be transformed into a means of making a living. Make bread for neighborhood resale, make cakes and sell them locally. There are many ways of using the system to ones advantage, not everyone on food stamps sits around getting fat.
grant

Perfectly logical.

#1 - they are known to be stolen loot.
#2 - applying for and accepting them and using them, makes me complicit in the theft
#3 - doing #2 encourages more of the theft.
#4 - they are not "there" as roads and currency are - they are easily avoidable.

It is in great measure physically impossible to avoid using roads and currency.

It is NOT physically impossible to avoid applying for, accepting, and using food stamps, or any other form of welfare.

Public Roads...

...are not an entitlement 'program' and to attempt to equate the two is not only a naked attempt to rationalize & justify something that, if proper, needs no rationalizing, but that is akin to comparing 'apples & platypus'.

Are there certain 'categories' who are only qualified and certain individual people receiving direct 'assistance' benefit from food-stamps, vs. the pubic roads?

Are the roads built and available for 'everyone's' use?

How about food-stamps, are they available for 'everyone's use?

There is your answer, simplistically.

Contortions, excuses, rationalizing and/or justifying are only necessary when something that one is doing does not measure up.

It really is that simple.

'apples and platypus' - that's some funny s^&t right there!

And so true.

Reminds me of someone getting something so screwed up, they aren't even wrong - they are in a different universe. (the "1 + 1 = purple" example)

Roads are practically unavoidable. The desire of others for paved roads imposes no obligation on me, who cannot avoid using them in my daily life, to pay for them as well.

This would be like the government assuming ownership of the air, taxing you for breathing, and then saying "well, you breath public air don't you?"

The government steals.

That does not make stealing right. Using benefits that are stolen is using stolen benefits, and therefore not something I would feel good about doing.

Social Security and Medicare are exceptions.

it's more of a privacy and dependency issue for us--

we qualify for everything, but we have to expose ourselves too much to get it--

as for SS, we didn't have a choice; we paid a tremendous amount of money into it for many years--

and not having it would have had us 'in the streets'--

we try to compensate for that by growing our own food and heating our home with wood we collect (free)--

and doing everything else possible to be as independent as possible--

unfortunately, it's hard to live in a tent when you are older--

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

Explain.

Do you have a choice not to pay for food stamps as a tax payer?
grant

explain what? We qualify for: foodstamps, government . . .

health 'insurance', probably more, and we don't use them--

but we know how much $ we paid into SS (as a couple, both working for years, one of us forever and no end in sight)--

no, we don't have a choice about food stamps, but what do *we* do, find someone on food stamps and beat him/her up--

or their little children?

It's a BIG mess, and I acknowledge that--

Spouse and I, at one point, looked into it, because we were getting desperate towards the end of a long period of underemployment (before a job break came through)--

and we realized that we had to give TOO much information out; SS is bad enough; we don't have to do that multiple times--

the system is a mess--

I don't take food stamps; I pay for them, but I (spouse and I) give food regularly to our local food bank--

so shoot us? LOL!

it's hard to be awake; it's easier to dream--

I don't have a problem with it.

Why you ask?

Because at some point you paid into this criminal cabal. As long as they make this available to people and you can deal with what ever strings are attached ... then do it.

The whole system is about to collapse so by joining it you are helping it to fall. IT NEEDS TO FAIL.

I was married in college working full time and had my first three kids while doing it. I was a Russian interpreter helping russians resettle into america in the early 1990's. I had to help people get on assistance.

When I realized I was eligible for the WIC program I was conflicted. Then I thought I am paying taxes [SS, All my Fed Taxes came back and I even got Paid money on the earned income tax credit for living in the USA ... figure that out???] I said hell with it I will take it.

Huge corporations take advantage of tax laws so as not to pay ... the poor scam the system all the time ... Your morals will not prevent this from happening and it will not change until the system implodes.

If you are eligible and not taking it in a fraudulant way I say go for it ... ITS ALL A HUGE SCAM ... and until the government fixes this mess SCREW THEM ... we are all gonna be fooked anywho.

My 2 cents.

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Yes.

Apply for everything. Think about how much of your paycheck goes to taxes. In fact ALL the taxes you pay probably add up to at least half of what you earn. If you own a car you pay several taxes every year, your registration, inspection sticker, driver's license, gasoline/diesel. Not to mention you pay taxes on everything you buy. In SA,TX the sales tax on everything you purchase is 8% (unless you're on foodstamps in which case you don't pay taxes on food). You pay a tax on every service you buy, from haircuts to home improvements. In TX again the tax is 8% (in San Antonio). Not to mention alot things you buy have already been taxed at least once before you purchase them. EVERYONE pays taxes including poor people. They might not pay income tax but they still get taxed for ss, medicare etc. You pay taxes on your property every year, taxes on your phone bill, your cable, internet etc. I could go on but the bottom line is that it's our money anyway so hell yeah get as much as you can as often as you can without regrets.

PattyFromTexas

tasmlab's picture

Stigma?

I appreciate the high quality arguments for and against, ESP the restitution, you paid for it...

But if you are a decent, capable and loving person than the idea should make you feel terrible, ESP as a libertarian, unless you are purposefully gaming and scamming the system out of intent to destroy it.

Nice people also tend to have friends and family that will rush to help in serious times of need.

If food stamps are to exist at all, they need to be last resorts for the mentally ill, disabled, and the unloved/despicable, and the stigma as such should be feature of the benefit.

It's a good subject for chatting about at a cocktail party, but hopefully not for libertarians to actually do with any good effect.

Currently consuming: Morehouse's "Better off free", FDR; Wii U; NEP Football

Explain why it is wrong.

Do you use public roads?
grant

tasmlab's picture

I would say choice is the difference.

I would say choice is the difference. There is an abundance of ways to procure food and money voluntarily. There are no such alternatives to using the roads.

I think a little context would be necessary to say whether it is wrong or not.

Someone looking to tip the cart, get their tax money back, screw the system is probably in the right. They will wear the stigma as a badge.

Someone who temporarily fell on hard times may be in the right if the government has genuinely chewed up the options a free society would've provided. The stigma will encourage them to get back on their feet quickly.

Someone who just lazes about because they can get the benefits should probably live with the stigma. If they claim some ethical rationale because they are libertarian, they probably have more bullshit floating in their heads than they know what to do with.

Currently consuming: Morehouse's "Better off free", FDR; Wii U; NEP Football

Yes I use public roads.

Be honest please, you condemn both public roads and food stamps, so, can you tell me the difference between one and the other? What do we all receive from public roads that we don't receive through food stamps?

My money says no.

it is one thing

To receive a centrally planned retirement check that you have paid into all your life. It is completely different to think that it would be rational or consistent with principles of liberty to receive a government hand out. Most people on food stamps pay no taxes. Its part of the "contract" of social security that you be paid back some of the money that was stolen from you. There is no such contract with these other welfare programs. There is no limit to what you receive from these programs, nor do you have to do anything before you receive from them.

Séamusín

The money you paid to Soc. Security is gone

The Federal Government used your premiums to offset deficit spending over the past 20 years. The money was blown, and in its' place is an IOU from the Federal Government to pay back Social Security, with interest, out of future income tax revenues from the next generation of workers.

It seems to me that taking Social Security is an immoral act. But like most immoral acts, there are varying degrees. It is certainly understandable when a starving person takes food from a grocery store if that is the only means of sustaining life...but it doesn't make the act morally right, just forgiveable, versus the person who steals food though they are capable of paying, which is unforgiveable. In neither case, however, is it moral to steal. It's just that one is worse than the other.

The same is true with Social Security: if you need it to live, as most seniors do, then it is understandable and human compassion says we must not put them on the same moral plane as one who takes Social Security despite having sufficient resources to live. Both acts are an unfair burden to others' lives. But the need of one tempers the moral outrageousness of the act, whereas the non-need of the other has no compassionate basis.

That being said, I can see Social Security payments in my future. But I don't see it as my 'right'. I have an obligation to avoid that situation if at all possible, or to delay it as long as possible, before succumbing to the immoral act of dependency.

Not when it's a pyramid scam.

I don't owe these Social Security recipients anything. They owe US for turning a blind eye to a scam thinking they could buy future slaves through their Social Security tax. People know damn well that it's a scam, and they think they have something coming to them.

What they have coming to them will come, but it's not the big payoff they were hoping for.

im not saying that

I do not plan on receiving S.S. I'm just saying that I do not see an ethical issue with wanting to see the money, that you were told you would see again, back. I think the govt should pay all the money it stole from me back. Now what would be unethical for me to be ok with them stealing from someone else to get it back to me.

Séamusín

tasmlab's picture

Stigma?

I appreciate the high quality arguments for and against, ESP the restitution, you paid for it...

But if you are a decent, capable and loving person than the idea should make you feel terrible, ESP as a libertarian, unless you are purposefully gaming and scamming the system out of intent to destroy it.

Nice people also tend to have friends and family that will rush to help in serious times of need.

If food stamps are to exist at all, they need to be last resorts for the mentally ill, disabled, and the unloved/despicable, and the stigma as such should be feature of the benefit.

It's a good subject for chatting about at a cocktail party, but hopefully not for libertarians to actually do with any good effect.

Currently consuming: Morehouse's "Better off free", FDR; Wii U; NEP Football

tasmlab's picture

Stigma?

I appreciate the high quality arguments for and against, ESP the restitution, you paid for it...

But if you are a decent, capable and loving person than the idea should make you feel terrible, ESP as a libertarian, unless you are purposefully gaming and scamming the system out of intent to destroy it.

Nice people also tend to have friends and family that will rush to help in serious times of need.

If food stamps are to exist at all, they need to be last resorts for the mentally ill, disabled, and the unloved/despicable, and the stigma as such should be feature of the benefit.

It's a good subject for chatting about at a cocktail party, but hopefully not for libertarians to actually do with any good effect.

Currently consuming: Morehouse's "Better off free", FDR; Wii U; NEP Football

No

Only because what kind of mindset this will lead to. What will happen if some of these programs are cut? Will someone become a socialist then?

Are these 'gateway Rx' to socialism?

Do not worry there will most likely very minimal SS payments in the next several decades anyway if any at all. RP's generation would of used most of the funds up by then anyway. They are the last fortunate generation. Lesser inflation, less tax, jobs, less regs, good schools, good food, fewer monopolies, etc.

What would it have been like to buy a cup of coffee for a nickel? What would of it cost to make it at home? lol

Oh, there were hardly any programs in place.

donvino

I'm uncomfortable with this

I've thought about this for years. I have lived my life as privately as possible, taking advantage of no government funded programs if I could possibly avoid it. I wanted to live my life as free of dependency on government as possible.

There are things that are difficult to avoid. Mandatory schooling forced us to use public schools for a few years. Roads are nearly all paid for with taxes. The medical industry is heavily subsidized by government. Nevertheless, I take great pride in knowing that I did what I could to minimize my participation in the tax funded world.

The private cost of avoiding government has been huge. Governments, at all levels, steal about 40% of my income every year. Income tax, payroll tax, Soc. Security, sales tax, property tax, excise taxes, etc. are my biggest expenses, by far. Additionally, I've paid for education, insurance, and periods of unemployment out of my own pocket, so in a sense I paid twice. Once for the government program, once privately.

I would like to use the argument that I am entitled to get some of my money back by taking advantage of government programs, but I understand that whatever the government has taken from me it has already spent. "My" money is gone. If I find myself in a position of needing government assistance for food, medicine, housing, heat, etc., I know that the money they give me will have been stolen from someone else. I have no right to do that to another person.

Still, I can see that possibility coming up. After decades of impoverishing me with their forced extractions, they will leave me with little choice. Like Harry Browne used to say, governments are great a breaking your leg, then handing you a pair of crutches and telling you how lucky you are they were there to 'help' you.

I do not blame anyone for taking government money if they need it to live. I just hope I can avoid that situation, and if I can't, then I want to delay it for as long as possible. The day I take my first government check, I will feel diminished as a human being.

Sure, if there is no other

alternative.

There's More Honor in Begging Than in Stealing

But, if stealing is the only way to feed your family, there's more honor in doing it yourself than hiring someone else (government) to do it for you.

The average response in this thread is stunning. If this is where we're at, then all is lost.

Pretty Much...

...as I see it, too.

There are as many rationalizations, justifications, excuses and 'sob-story' arguments for government handouts, than one would expect to see in the collectivist congress, white house and federal bureaucracies combined.

There are individual hard-luck cases and sad stories everywhere and if one rationalizes government excess based on those, or on their own circumstances, rather than the larger principle and necessary limitations on government, well....

A 'liberty-movement' populated as this one is, will gain nothing but a different version of what we already are plagued with.

People oppose bailouts until they need em.

I have no problem taxing people, but not to bailout you or I, nor any of these duplicitous freeloaders.

Public roads are a form of compensation we all benefit from and they serve our liberty. Food stamps are a way of bailing people out (which causes moral hazard) and as you can tell from many of the people here, their moral code isn't really a moral code at all. They have no integrity to their principles.

A phony Libertarian will laugh about feeding at the public trough because they never intended to adhere to their moral code and abandon their principles when they need a bailout.