5 votes

I need help converting a Romney lover to a Paul lover

I need help DP people... My brother is huge into buisness and is unfortunatelly sucked into the media corruption and can not grasp the meaning of the Ron Paul revolution. I have been arguing with him for sometime now about how Ron Paul is the best bet for America. Im sure many of you have the same issue while trying to persuade someone how Ron Paul is the answer. Can someone please help me out on what to tell him because I can not find the words to do it. I have some of the messages that he wrote to me about his stance on Romney and the country. I am looking for some words that can make him think seriously about this. Here is what he says... thanks everyone.

"What does the constitution say about financial derivative products, mortgage backed securities and the housing bubble that's put our economy in a recession. Times have changed. I'm all about using the constitution as a base. Innovation - is the creation of better or more effective products, processes, services, technologies, or ideas that are accepted by markets, governments, and society. We are no longer traveling by horse and buggy. Use the constitution as a base, but innovation is the key to growth. The world is a different place nowThe govt has made a profit from bailing out the banks. We would still be in a deep recession if the banks would have failed. The govt played a part in the housing market b/c of lack of regulation of financial products. Take a few economic classes. Systemic risk. Look it up. You need to stop going back hundreds of years in history and learn more about the last few decades."

"I'm not sure that you understand how big of an election this is. Obama has to get out of office and Romney has the best shot to beat him. Obama would ea
t Pauls lunch.
You keep talking about the media. The media has you sucked you into the Ron Paul Revolution.
You need to be a realist. You don't understand that is about change our lives and our kids lives forever. You don't understand the economy. healthcare
reform, tax policies, social security. Ron Paul has some good policies and some off the wall policies. Romney has to beat Obama.
to make the best out of a bad situation. Ron Paul would never get his policies passed through congress. Be realistic Ronnie!
Once again the media.
I agree with that. The main issue is the economy. We need to get Americans working and decrease govt spending. We need govt to protect our economy but n
ot to be a provider or redistribute wealth by raising taxes on the wealthy. Romneys policies will attack the major issues in our economy. I'm sure Ron Pa
uls will too but he doesn't have a chance at beating Obama.The middle voters will decide this election and Pauls is too far right to gain any of the mid
dle/independent voters. You should support Romney and stop wasting your time on Paul. Romney is our only chance.
You live in a fantasy land."



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Here how I would do it...

First off, your Bro sounds like a lost cause for now. If that is the case then you need to start planting seeds for the future. That comes later. As to this:
"What does the constitution say about financial derivative products, mortgage backed securities and the housing bubble that's put our economy in a recession. Times have changed. I'm all about using the constitution as a base. Innovation - is the creation of better or more effective products, processes, services, technologies, or ideas that are accepted by markets, governments, and society. We are no longer traveling by horse and buggy... Take a few economic classes. Systemic risk. Look it up."

You can try asking him what the constitution says about horses and buggies since he seems to think that the constitution is relevant to them somehow(it is not). The same goes for everything else he mentions. The constitution was NEVER meant to have anything to do with securities of any kind, so applying the constitution to these things would be silly, just as arguing that we shouldn't be following the constitution b/c such things exist is silly. Isn't that kind of the whole "base" of the constitution? that the government should not involve itself in these routine transactions? That is a function of free people and free markets. the govn't only role is to enforce the contracts as drafted, not to write the damn things itself. He is correct that innovation is the key. I don't see what that has to do with any of his other arguments. Your brother is using some sort of logical fallacy here. The leap is made (although not said)when he asserts that 'we would still be in a deep recession if the govnt had not bailed out the banks.' He cannot prove that (likewise, you cannot prove otherwise so don't get bogged down in that argument, particularly if he knowledgeable in that subject). You can argue, however, that even if that assertion was correct (it is not) it does not justify the govn'ts actions. Take that a run with it. That is simply not the proper role of government. Just b/c he thinks the outcome may be good, does not mean that the action was warented. (ends don't justify the means, etc.) Explain the damage that can be caused by an intervening government by using your own examples. Make him work through some very complex economic issues and ask him what "we" should do. (ie. what would you do if you were King or President) Make it HARD! Really hard. Make him contradict himself. Maybe use obscure examples from the past, where you know what DID happen and see if he would have made the same mistakes or done worst. Also, make him predict what should happen under Romney and/or what will happen under Romney or Obama.

Anyway, this is no fun without actually having the discussion with the person and I'm prolly doing an awful job explaining what to explain and how to do it. Your welcome to add me as a friend on FB. I love FB discussions and promise that I am typically very polite. Or have "mock" arguments. It should be fun :) My name is Eric Landis, I'm the one with RON PAUL under my face. LOL.

And, don't ever give up! But do focus yourself for the time being. He does not sound like the type to have a "light go off." You will not win him over with one discussion, so don't bother trying. Hope this helps

"When I say liberty I do not simply mean what is referred to as 'free enterprise.' I mean liberty of the individual to think his own thoughts and live his own life as he desires to think and to live..." - Robert A. Taft

Also

I forgot to mention, I have a degree in Business admin and Accounting and a masters in accounting and taxation. I have likely taken more business classes than he has and I graduated with a 4.0 gpa and won the departmental award for business. I don't usually brag about that sort of thing, but since he made the comment "take some business classes" maybe it will help you (and him) to know that he is not the smartest cookie out there and there are plenty of people who have taken business classes that agree with you and RP and think he is dead wrong. Of course that is just another area you can go with. If he has an affinity toward "authority" and "experts" use it against him. There are prolly more "experts" that agree with Obama than with Romney and they are just as wrong- Just sayin'

"When I say liberty I do not simply mean what is referred to as 'free enterprise.' I mean liberty of the individual to think his own thoughts and live his own life as he desires to think and to live..." - Robert A. Taft

The issues, not the man

From what your brother is saying, it sounds like when you talk to him you mainly talk about the man, Ron Paul. Instead, I would approach talking about the issues - issues that are so fundamental and necessitate radical changes that Romney is completely unwilling to make.

I would question his definition of innovation - how are mortgage backed securities / derivatives / credit default swaps at all innovative. What value do they add? What is there purpose? These are inventions of bankers, meant for other bankers in order for them to 'hedge' or gamble with other people's money. This is not the innovation we need. These don't produce anything valuable, and it's right to question their existence.

If he want's to talk economy, talk economy. What does he think of the federal reserve's ability to print money and set interest rates. If money is manipulated like this, how can an economy possibly work properly - it needs to find the market value for things - including the value of money (1/2 of every transaction)? Real prices are impossible to find - especially in those places where govt interferes most - housing, healthcare, and education.

Ask him if he will

put his children in the front line, in Syria or Iran? After all the Military Industrial complex is a successful business too.

If your brother is not in

If your brother is not in search of the truth and understand that both party's are doing the same thing, you are wasting your time.

But, a good starting point to show him what a hypicrite Romney is, dig us his record while he was Governor of Taxachussettes. Find the state income tax, property tax information during his term as GOvernor. I'm sure your brother hates Obama Care, show him the truth about Romney Care.

There is no Left or Right -- there is only freedom or tyranny. Everything else is an illusion, an obfuscation to keep you confused and silent as the world burns around you." - Philip Brennan

"Invest only in things that you can stand in front of and pr

Is he a delegate?

If yes, continue to work on him with everything you have.

If no, forget about 2012 and think long-term.

Turn him onto other conservative/liberty voices as he sounds as if he may have heard all he wants from Dr. Paul. It sounds like he knows, or thinks he knows what happened with the financial crisis. Our liberty specialist in this area is PETER SCHIFF. (Ron Paul is too, but we're looking for other voices).

Look up a few good Schiff videos of him predicting the collapse. There are several good one's out there. His best analogy is "The FED poured the alcohol that wallstreet drank." Your brother needs to understand that point, and it is all downhill from there.

This is your "go-to" video below. Schiff debates Laffer in 2006 on the real estate market. Make the point to your brother that Schiff was an econmic advisor to Paul while i'm almost positive Romney would have sounded like Laffer in 2006.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gShM-fkY8T8

"Where liberty is, there is my country." -Benjamin Franklin

Louisville Slugger - Here to help...

When all other help fails.
http://www.slugger.com/baseball/aluminum/
: )

Here's something I use but

Here's something I use but may not work. Being successful in business doesn't equate to someone who understands how our currency works. The one thing that makes me know for a fact he doesn't understand our currency and economic problems is because his economic adviser is a Keynesian economist (same as Obama's). If he understood how currency works, he wouldn't have a Keynesian economist advising him. But then again, your Romney friend may not understand this concept. If you can give him a little history on Austrian economics or compare to Keynesian then after he understands, drop the bomb that Romney/Obama both have Keynesian economists, it might make him think. Keynesians are central economic planners. They believe you can spend your way out of a recession. This is what made the "Great Depression" severe and last so long (1929, and lasted 10 years). Both presidents Hoover and FDR resorted to central economic planning and made the problem severe. But the dollar did not collapse because it was worth more than it is today. In 1920, we suffered a severe but short depression (resulting from the Federal Reserve's printing to fund WWI) but President Calvin Coolidge kept his hands off and allowed the free market "correction" to occur. It was a severe depression but only lasted about a year. A "correction" is simply allowing businesses to fail that should fail. It does result in job losses and a severe period but those with capital buy up the assets of failed companies and start new ones resulting in whole new jobs. If the free market were allowed to work, the people would be the ones determining what products are good ones (not the federal government by bailing out failing businesses). Today, the dollar is worth less than 5 cents of it's original worth when the Federal Reserve was started in 1913 (probably even less considering the continual money-printing by the fed). Obama has been using massive Keynesian policies in an attempt to fix the economy and has made it worse and more severe. If Romney or Obama get in and start attempting even more Keynesian policies, the dollar is not going to survive much longer. If he still doesn't understand the dollar devaluation by the Federal Reserve's printing, tell him the more dollars printed, the less the dollar is worth. The Federal Reserve was sold to the American public in 1913 as an entity that would prevent economic downturns. I believe we've had 13 since it was created and it's money-manipulation (due to the Keynesian policies of Presidents Hoover and FDR) caused the "Great Depression". Let him know that the more money is being created (inflation), the more prices on everything rises. These Keynesian policies are leading us toward hyperinflation (then explain the Weimar Republic's hyperinflationary period. It's well-explained in Williams' hyperinflation report below). Williams believes the outside timing for hyperinflation to be 2014.........................On top of all this, Romney supports NDAA (so does Obama), Romney's socialized healthcare was a blueprint for Obama's socialized healthcare, both support more war which will end once the dollar collapses (which makes it FAR MORE dangerous to the U.S. than terrorists), Romney also supports amnesty for illegal aliens (just like Obama). He supported the bailouts which showed he lacked understanding of the dollar crisis coming. The dollar will not survive 4 more years of Keynesian central economic planning. Tell him to check out Austrian economist (and Fortune 500 company economist most looked up to), John Williams. He has a hyperinflation report on the front page of his website shadowstats.com. If your friend is business-savvy and knows the numbers, he'll appreciate Williams' report. John Williams uses the old formulas (not the "rosy" suped-up formulas to hide the truth) to figure out the true state of our economy. If that doesn't wake your friend up, I don't know what will. Good luck.

A workable angle

Won't work on the willfully ignorant, the stupid, or the deceitful people who merely parrot the lies to keep their gravy train going.

As to the role of anyone, anywhere, wanting to deal with "derivatives" the person seeking to be connected in any way to that crime in progress will be either of two categories:

1.
The very few who will profit at the expense of the many victims.

2.
Not 1

Wanting to have your hard earned wealth stolen may be called charity, so having a bunch of crooks ready to take your charity is fine with me, so long as I can be left out of that scenario called "derivatives" and any other Fraud made legal by the criminals who gave themselves badges, and by the dupes who keep ignoring the mounting facts that prove that "hey dude" you are not on the payroll.

The time before The Constitution (which was a usurpation if Patrick Henry's astute published observations were of any significance to those alive today proving just exactly how right he was) shows to any who prefer not to repeat the really bad parts of history, as the reasoning behind a Republic, or Democratic Federated Republic, included the concept of voluntary union and competitive government.

What that means, again to those who may want to know better than to "provide the means by which we suffer", is that people could get exactly what they pay for, if they want derivatives in New York, while New Jersey may want to opt out, and so those who want to prey on everyone else can flock to New York to have their hides sheared off, and those who don't can flock to New Jersey, and about the only good thing The Federal Agents are allowed to do, by law, is to punish the bad guys, not force the runaway slaves to return to be sheared over and over again.

And this isn't theory so much as precedent in the case of Shays's Rebellion during that time period before the loop hole was closed, whereby State tax evasion was NOT a Federal Crime. When the Federal Government had to convince the State Governments that a Federal Government was worth the expense, and The People were not directly taxed, not directly connected to, The Federal Government. That loop hole was closed up right after Shays's Rebellion.

I've been told that the number of symbols I publish are too many so I'll cut this short by saying that Ron Paul will, if he does something no other Politician since Patrick Henry, tell the truth, and do what he promised, return that loop hole back into the system, return back to a Democratic Federated Republic, and cut the link between the few Legal Criminals running Legal Crime and their many victims, which number 3 links in particular.

1. CUT
FRAUD as the National Level in the form of a Communist Style State Bank

Cut that link by merely stopping the enforcement of capturing runaway slaves trying to run away from ONE COMMUNIST STATE BANK, and the slaves don't even have to do any running, since all they would have to do is call up a better bank and wire the funds out of the Fraud Debt Notes and into something that is no longer illegal: Honest Money.

2. CUT
Extortion at the National Level in the form of Direct Taxation which may be a good idea at a State Level where all the "citizens" are ready, willing, and able sheep ready for slaughter, but not a thing designed into a Democratic Federated Republic, so that link is cut, and if a State government can managed to keep that link firmly attached to the slaves then that is their business, not the Federal Employees business.

3. CUT
Cut the link between Legal Criminals from other foreign countries ordering "our" Troops around to obey unlawful orders including torture, mass murder, and aggressive wars for oil and no bid contract profits, not to mention the defense of the Legal Money Monopoly; so those best and brightest who are actually very good at what they are trained to specialize at doing, are ordered to do the lawful thing, which also happens to be the moral thing, and happens to be the thing specified to be done in the Universal Code of Military Justice, which is defense against those very bad people who are now issuing the orders to torture, mass murder, and conduct very costly (to everyone) wars of nebulous profits which turn out to be nothing more than zeros in fraudulent bank accounts and whatever power the victims have left to give out of their good charitable hearts, as bonuses, and raises, and other forms of welfare flowing from every good, productive, charitable, person to those very few at the bottom of their Top Down Pyramid.

Joe

You were able to find a Romney lover?

I can't find one anywhere!

That's funny,

I guess Dr Paul's top campaign supporters, which are active duty/veterans, means nothing? It must mean us military are tired of deploying for months on end, for almost nothing. I'm a helicopter crew chief and I've been over there seven times(equivalent to about 2 1/2 years)and I'm tired of leaving my family. And from my standpoint and many, many others I work with, it's time to bring the boys home. We're tired of cleaning up blood and guts of some young Marine or Brit out of the helicopters days on end, tired of fixing aircraft that are in need of major overhaul or replacement, tired of shitty living/working conditions which most civilians would never accept, tired of leaving our families and thus missing birthdays and holidays. But what do we know, we've never worked a day in our lives :)

And about his example of the money supply..That example could be true if our money was backed by gold/silver. When we have nothing but a fiat money supply, its virtually worthless to begin with.
I'll use an example too: say you have Michael Jordan's rookie basketball card and there's only 7 made in the US. You are lucky and get one. Your friends are jealous and they want one too (demand) But, there's only 7 (supply) to go around. That inherently drives up the price and keeps the value high. The card company decides to print a thousand more MJ rookie cards, the value drops a little bit because there's more out there. Then they decide to print 30,000 more. Now most of your friends have one and now your not the cool kid on the block and your card is worth 50% less. And China,Japan and other countries are slowly backing off buying Treasury Bonds. They know we are headed down a dark hole. But guess who is buying them?..JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, etc.

I think the only way to save our monetary system so we don't end up like Zimbabwe or Argentina is to go back to a gold/silver standard. There's lots of literature out there about it. Dr Paul doesn't just make this stuff up about the monetary system or Fraudulent Reserve. Its documented by history also.

Oh, and BTW, I was never a liberal/democrat. I was once a main line Republican that supported Bush. No longer, good sir.

Thank you all for the

Thank you all for the comments. Here is another one. I think it is rediculous because he is just sooo sure that he is right.

Ron Paul is a weirdo and his supporters don't have a clue. The govt needs to stop printing money. The only time the you have inflation is when the fed buys bonds for quantitative easing. Govt debt is funded by bonds sales bought by the private sector. You don't know anything about the federal reserve. Growing the money supply doesn't actually devalue the dollar as long as there is demand for it. For example. You have a country of 10 people and the total money supply is $10. $1 per person. If the country grows to 20 people that's .50 per person. There is now an increased demand for money so If you double the money supply to $20 then the value of the dollar remains constant. It's all about the economy. Understand supply and demand and learn more about how this economy works. You need to stop reading the Ron Paul crap and get with reality. The world is very different than it was 200 years ago. I dont even want to get into Ron Pauls view on foreign policy. I agree with some of Ron Paul's views but most of them are ridiculous. Ron Paul supporters are equivalent to the people that voted for Obama. Just voting for change and don'tunderstand global economics. Most of them are college students that have never worked a day in their life. Keep being isolated to reading Ron Paul blogs and you have no choice than to follow Paul. You don't know anything different.

Freedom

Predictions..

One other point. My father sounded the same way until I showed him the video of Ron Paul calling the real estate bubble in the early 2000's on the house floor.

It is very hard to ignore Dr. Paul when you see him telling you what is happening years in advance.

Paul predicted the bubble on the house floor as early as 2001.
Joe Scarborough interviewed Paul about his statements predicting it in 2003.
Peter Schiff, Paul's close advisor predicted the bubble as well.

"Where liberty is, there is my country." -Benjamin Franklin

Ok, well ask him this then:

How fast is the population expanding in relationship to how fast money is being created?

And yes, I'm a RP supporter who went to college and HAVE worked many a long and exhausting day in my life!

What are you fightin' for?
Caught in the middle?
Freedom is only for those with the guts to defend it!

seriously have your read this link ?????

http://www.dailypaul.com/237439/what-is-the-greatest-weaknes...

There are over 100 ideas there. all designed to answer your question. Pick the ones that work best for your situation and use it. or pick a few

This should be easy

The advice mentioned before is a good starting point. Videos always help. DailyPaul is also great resource. You could also point him in the direction of Mises.org, Libertyclassroom.com, loan/buy him a copy of Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson. If he's an avid reader, The Creature From Jekyll Island is a good read also.

But ask him if he knows anyone that is enthusiastic about Romney (which has a VERY similar record to Obama's). All I ever hear is the 'lesser of two evils' rhetoric or 'better than Obama' nonsense. Then let him know that there are Tens of Thousands that are so enthusiastic, sometimes we are hit in the face or end up with broken bones for our guy ;)

Dr Paul has inspired a massive amount of people. When have you ever heard Romney talk about, well anything, and felt inspired to learn about a subject or issue? Whether Dr Paul speaks of Keynesian vs Austrian, business cycles, monetary policy, the CIAs theory on blow-back, states rights, individual rights, etc people feel inspired to learn what he talks about because there's nothing but truth in the message. What other politician offers that??

Just show him a couple Ron

Just show him a couple Ron Paul youtube videos

I recommend:
Ron Paul 45th President of the United States
Ron Paul: A 2012 Revolution
Ron Paul All predictions in due time
Armed Chinese Troops in Texas
Ron Paul debate highlights

REPLY TO THE FIRST

REPLY TO THE FIRST STATEMENT

The constitution doesn't say anything about derivatives or mortgage backed securities or housing bubbles because the constitution lists the Federal Governments responsibilities, a job description if you will, and guess what? The federal government isn't supposed to be regulating the economy. It's not an evolution to expand the Federal government power, that takes you a step toward totalitarianism, and a step away from freedom. It's an evolution to free the market of manipulation. If they actually followed the constitution instead of "innovating" new ways to manipulate the economy we wouldn't be facing a looming debt crisis. It's ironic the governments innovation in mortgage backed securities helped cause the housing bubble. It would do you a lot of good to learn how the business cycle works. If you understood that its the federal reserves manipulation of the interest rates that causes these fake bubbles, then you'd realize you can't fix the economy without dealing with the fed. [I can explain the whole business cycle in detail if you think it'd help]

Why do you think Ron Paul was able to predict the housing bubble in 2002?
http://www.ronpaul.com/2008-09-26/ron-paul-on-the-housing-bu...
Because he understands the mechanisms which cause them.

It isn't about going back hundreds of years, it's about understanding the economic forces of nature. Just because we have airplanes and rocketships doesn't mean you go back hundres of years to talk about gravity. Gravity still exists even though we have technology that resists it for long periods of time. Same goes in economics, we have built vehicles to defy market forces for long periods of time, but they never last forever just like a plane running out of fuel and crashing under the weight of gravity.

That's how Ron Paul and other Austrian Economists can predict these things. They look at how the market is being manipulated and simply point out the obvious fact that it will lead to a correction, or a crash under the wieght of market forces if you will.

You are simply wrong about bailing out the banks. If you listen to the banksters, of course they will tell you fairy tales about systemic risk and how they are to big to fail, and how inorder to save the economy we need to bail them out. But if you listen to logic you realize that they're just trying to rob you blind. And that's what they did, they dumped their bad debt on the taxpayer. Shuffling debt around doesn't save the economy, and it certianly doesn't save main st who end up getting stuck with tab.

ELECTIBILITYthis vid is

ELECTIBILITY
this vid is awesome
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWBzUuo9_eo

Obama's base is weak because so many people bought into his lies. If you listen to all the lies in the vid they look like this. lie about ending wars, lie about civil liberty infringements, lie about lobbyist influence, lie about wall st influence. These disenfranchised voters aren't attracted to romney because romney wants more foriegn involvement, doesn't care about civil liberties (said he'd vote for NDAA), and he basically is a wall st insider. There is no way romney can gain significant amounts of this vote. Ron Paul on the other hand, Ron Paul could steal A LOT of Obama's base because of his leverage on Obama's lies. With Obama's base and the republican party, how could he lose?

No offense,

but it sounds like he is dilluding himself. Romney cannot beat Obama (because Paul is the one with all the 'middle voters') and even if Mitt could beat Obama, not a dimes worth of difference will come of it. Obama = Bush jr, Romney = Obama. Changing one clown for another. It sounds like your bro is concerned about our country, but unfortunatly he doesn't have a clue. You can spend a whole lot of time trying to get him to understand, or you can move on and focus on other people. If he is serious about saving out country tell him Romney & Obama support the Patriot Act / NDAA / EEA (Enemy Expatriation Act) and that living under a bad economy is one thing, but living under tyranny trumps everything. I rather live poor and homeless than see my countrymen get picked up on their walk and never heard from again because they opposed a govt policy<==== we're heading towards that. That is the whole bases for supporting the Constitution. If you break away from the document that glues this country together for financial gain, you might as well light it on fire and do away with the 'enumerated rights' of each individual. If he will not support Paul tell him this: "Okay, vote your will, but now you know, Romney vs obama will be a tough election. If...that's a big if, Mitt wins both the Nomination and the Presidency, nothing will change besides the (R) and (D) next to the name. So when nothing changes I hope you will support your country by only voting for people who mean what they say, say what they mean, and have 100% support for the constitution." That way, after the next 4 years of the same old same old he will finally be awake.

“When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic.” – Dresden James