32 votes

The Libertarian Party is a Failed -"Liberty Advancing"-Strategy

by Treg D. Loyden

Why don't you Gary Johnson Libertarian Party people learn what we have learned?

That is, why don't you learn WHY WE CREATED the R3VOLUTION in the first place?

Please don't preach to us, read what we have to say. Then you will know why we DROPPED the LP as an effective STRATEGIC PATH to advance liberty.

Most of all, why don't you realize that WE in the r3VOLution are on to something?

Now get on your knees and confess these facts:

1) In just 5 short years WE in the r3VOLution have done more to advance Libertarian ideals than you in your 41 year old dusty LP.

2) We have OUT RAISED Money for our candidate than all 41 years of the LP has raised for ALL its candidates.

3) We have earned more VOTES for our candidate as well. Does that not say something to you? Not only did we do this, but we did this with one of your old 'throw-away' presidential candidates from 1988. We resurrected him from the bowels of the internet, resurrected his long forgotten speeches, resurrected him from your own obscurity. Think about that. And just imagine what we could do with Harry Browne if he was still alive today.

The ONLY reason why the Libertarian Party gets ANY national press today is because of what our decentralized networked r3VOLution has managed to do in 5 short years.

Please stop telling us to GO BACK to the LP and vote for GJ. This is a movement that the LP or DNC or GOP cannot co-opt. We are not couch potato Fox News simpletons, we are the real deal.

So please understand, its waste of time to spend our energies inside the libertarian party all for one man, Gary Johnson (who is not even a libertarian).

Here is the take away point from all of this: The LP is a STRATEGY. That is all it is. It is a strategy for advancing Liberty and Freedom.

And here is what you need to know, your strategy does not work. Like all the others before him, Gary Johnson will get .05% of the vote, that is it. It’s a failure by any measure.

So wake up, pay close attention to WHY WE STARTED THE r3VOLution in the first place.

Most of all, before asking us to vote for GJ, why don't you spend your time reading these essays first and then get back to us?

1) How Do We Know When the r3VOLution has Won?
http://www.dailypaul.com/236949/how-do-we-know-when-the-r3vo...

2) Its So Fun to Hijack the GOP
http://www.dailypaul.com/119891/its-so-fun-to-hijack-the-gop

3) What Do We Want? To Win! (And to be the Next DNC/GOP Party Bosses)
http://www.dailypaul.com/233240/what-do-we-want-to-win-and-t...

4) Why We Must Re-Brand Liberty Inside the 2-Party Duopoly
http://www.dailypaul.com/217383/go-libertarian-or-go-freedom...

5) Starting the LP Was a HUGE Strategic Mistake for Liberty
http://www.dailypaul.com/236042/starting-the-libertarian-par...

6) GJ & the LP is NOT the next battlefield for advancing Liberty. Here is the next Battlefield: http://www.dailypaul.com/238639/we-need-you-to-run-against-a...

7) Here is your call to arms by Israel Anderson! VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-KNWe-djXM&feature=share

8) Here is Ron Paul himself at the 23 min mark saying, infiltrate the 2-Party Duopoly system http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4n6gX...!

Treg

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Nope.

You want to infiltrate the Republicans, we want to pull them apart by exposing their corruption and taking away their power.

If we do both together, we will win. We can't beat the 2-party system if we don't work together. We need to apply pressure from within and without.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"Annoyance is step one of thinking"
"We're all in the same boat, it doesn't matter if you like me"

John Ashman that is the most confused reply

When are you going to sit down and read the 5 essays?

Look, everyone will vote your GJ, now GO AWAY.

But you will not will you?

Why is that, is not the GJ vote enough? No it isn't is it?

That is because you want our r3VOLution -- you want us to WORK for GJ, you want us to GIVE MONEY and PROMOTE his campaign -- but that is a waste of our time and energies and most of all, THAT DOES NOT ADVANCE THE CAUSE OF LIBERTY.

Now, read the 5 essays and debate them, but stop spinning & pumping -- gee you are worse than Sean Hanity-Insanity.

Treg

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

I read them. I would hardly

I read them. I would hardly call them "essays". Certainly my English professors would not.

I don't think you know the difference between liberty and enslavement, to be honest.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"Annoyance is step one of thinking"
"We're all in the same boat, it doesn't matter if you like me"

I don't know the difference between Liberty & enslavement???

Do go on....I've have my popcorn out, so explain away John Ashman.

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

Rambling. All of them went

Rambling. All of them went on and on and all of them were basically clones of the other. No new ground, nothing of interest. I thought you were going to actually say something important, I thought that's why you challenged me to read them. Can you sum up what you think you were saying?

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"Annoyance is step one of thinking"
"We're all in the same boat, it doesn't matter if you like me"

You Are The Most Annoying Anti-LP Poster By Far!

Congratulations! Let's see - did Ron Paul win the nomination oh wise one? Coule we stop vote rigging? Did the GOP establishment not mock, attack and belittle the Ronulans? With no one comparable to Ron Paul and retiring - what other figure with such clout does your movement have to get so excited about?

On the other hand, LP only has to deal with some ballot laws and increase recognition and it can carry the Liberty message with or without a Ron Paul. You assume that the Libery movement wil take holdand not get watered down if it does (referring to GOP takeover).

After your strategy has failed come join us at the LP and let's get to work.

Annoying? I am just getting started.

Who you ask to we have waiting in the wings?

This man has charisma all over and is libertarian through and through baby!

Video: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-october-27-2011/andrew...

Treg

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

I Am A Fan Of The Judge But He Has No Interest In POTUS

.

How do you know this... you state it as a fact.

Do you have a link? An essay, and interview? What? What makes you say this?

I am a fan too, but I am not convinced he cannot be drafted...

Napolitano/2016

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

It's not the Libertarian Party it's the Gary Johnson 2012 Party

Gary Johnson has the credibility that the LP doesn't.

Do you think Ross Perot voters cared about the "Reform Party"?

We infiltrate the Republicans by proving that they can't win in 2016 without fully embracing the Gary Johnson vote. Power only respects Power.

BTW, loved your duopoly essay

Infiltration and subversion is the only workable long-term strategy, for exactly the reasons you describe.
However, in Ron's absence, Gary 2012 represents a rare shot to organize our horde into a measurable bloc that cannot be easily dismissed. It would be a great shame, after all Ron's done, for 2012 to go down in history as a year the Liberty-minded had zero influence on elections.

Really? You want to strike BLOOD?

Lets target anyone of the 3 top NeoCons who love every war they've ever seen.

Take your pick...who should we in the r3VOLution go after?

a) John McCain (Count me in for that!)
b) Joe Lieberman (Make Israel cry)
c) Lindsay Graham (Let him retire to a San Fransisco bath house)

Now taking down just ONE of these senators with a full on RON PAUL ANTI-INTERVENTIONIST PATRIOT sends SHOCK WAVES.

It would strike BLOOD into the NeoCons long grip on the Senate.

A victory here would do more for Liberty than working over time and getting GJ a late evening news "also ran" mention on the nightly news.

Use our r3VOLutionary energies wisely I say.

Treg

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

Why are these ideas contradictory?

If we get a Freedom candidate to run in a primary against a, b, or c, fantastic.

After Tampa, the only Freedom candidate we'll have in THIS election is Johnson.

If Johnson wins more than Romney's margin of defeat, so much the better because it will prove conclusively that the Republicans can't win without a Freedom candidate.

That should help us in our infiltration efforts.

If Gary even so much as gets

If Gary even so much as gets blamed for causing Romney to lose, it's a HUGE victory.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"Annoyance is step one of thinking"
"We're all in the same boat, it doesn't matter if you like me"

In that case, just vote for Obama

and then get on with advancing Liberty Patriots into the DNC & GOP by going after vulnerable congressional races. Pit a Ron Paul Patriot against a socialist any day.

Ok John, we all will vote GJ. So will you leave it alone now?

No you won't, you want more from us. You want us to work for the LP and get GJ on all 50 ballots and give money to his campaign and on and on... and THAT is why I say, its a waste of our time and energies.

A simple vote for Obama assures us that he is out in 4 ( a HUGE victory as you say) and we can be busy promoting a real libertarian with real charisma come 2016... http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-october-27-2011/exclus...

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

Voting for Obama is the worst possible choice

That will cause everyone to misread the Romney defeat, and attribute no relevance to the Liberty movement in 2012.

Drednot...... lets think that through together...

First, perhaps you are like me and believe that POLICY wise, GW Bush and Obama have been essentially the same. Further, they were both Big Spenders and Big Warmongers, ie nothing changed from Bush to Obama. We just get more of it with Obama.

Agreed?

Now perhaps you will agree that there will not be a POLICY change going from Obama to Romney. Nothing here changes fundamentally as well. Further, spending and MORE warfare are sure to come under a President Romney.

Agreed?

So, the ONLY difference to us in the R3VOLution is Obama is out in 4 and we can be back fighting for Napolitano/2016 (or maybe Rand/2016)

But notice this important fact: With a Romney win in 2012, the GOP republicans will be screaming for "4 more years for President Romney". Hence the r3VOLution will be on hold until 2020... YUCK!!!

So from my point of view, if this race is a close, I will not vote for GJ and vote FOR the r3VOLution by voting Obama so he is out in 4 years.

Treg

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

No, actually that's all I

No, actually that's all I want! I don't believe in parties, I don't believe in donating to politicians. I believe in an informed electorate that makes decisions on facts and solid understanding.

Seriously, I just believe in making your vote count. I won't even give money to Gary, but I will spread the word.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"Annoyance is step one of thinking"
"We're all in the same boat, it doesn't matter if you like me"

Let me get this....

We should work in the Republican Party, but not play by their rules (see Rand endorsing Romney)?

That is right, infiltrate the GOP and DNC

What do we "win" by doing going inside the 2 party duopoly?

1) Their Database of their voters.

2) Access to their official Debate Stage.

Now why is this important? How does this give us a win? And what does winning look like?

1) With their database of voters we make our 'LIBERTY VOTERS list". To come up with this list, our Ron Paul Patriot PC's go door to door TALKING to each republican voter. The RP Patriot LISTENS to each republican voter. He/she then places that voter into 1 of 5 categories.
a) Liberty Leaning Voter,
b) Personality Voter,
c) Single or Double or Triple issue Voter,
d) NeoCon Statist Voter,
e) Big Govt Religious Voter.

So now take a look at all the 6 Jeff's my "LIBERTY VOTER's LIST" from all my PC work. Ask yourself, who am I calling days before the election to get them to go vote?

1) Jeff Johnson, Rep, B & E & D
2) Jeff Keller, Ind, D
3) Jeff Kunsner, Rep, A likes Paul, needs to know he can win
4) Jeff Kunz, Rep, A & B, likes Rand Paul the best
5) Jeff Manton, Rep, C anti abortion, pro gun, anti-tax
6) Jeff Tweet, Rep, A

I can tell you this; days before and the day of the election I did NOT call 1 and 2. Those Jeff's are Unfriendly Liberty Voters.

So what has just happened here? We have been able to use Their GOP database of voters, identify them, and target the liberty leaning voters, the single issue voters and identify the ANTI-LIBERTY voters. And we are able to do this all INSIDE THE GOP using their own database. How awesome is that? We can market to those "on the bubble" for Liberty. Its great. That is powerful, and its all in YOUR hands.

2) Access to Their statewide or nationwide Debate Stage. This is what GJ hopes to get on. By being a GOP or DNC, you get on it automatically. No fighting to get on the ballot, no fighting to get media attention. You get to be on the stage, you will get your chance to shine and you will get your chance to get your message out. How awesome is that? Its great. And it confers "legitimacy" when the MSM covers the debate.

3) Because of number 1 & 2 above, you can RAISE FUNDS! Super Awesome! Now that is "getting it done for liberty!" That is where the REAL battle is. That is where we all need to be focused.

We have 70 openly admitted socialist in Congress and 3 major NeoCons in the Senate. If we took out just ONE of the high profile neocons, that would speak LOUDLY for the freedom movement. Lets target and go after Joe Lieberman, John McCain, and Lindsay Graham. Why not?

We have proven this works folks.

Treg

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

Your entire argument is on a faulty foundation:

"Gary Johnson will get .05% of the vote, that is it. It’s a failure by any measure."

That is not true. Gary is already polling above 10%. If Ron Paul is nominated, by all means, I will vote for him. If not, Gary's a fantastic choice. He WILL be the LP candidate with the most votes in history, and he will most likely have enough support to get into the debates.

Nothing Gary is doing is counter to liberty. There's nothing wrong with him running. I suspect very highly that if Paul wins the nomination Gary will drop out. He constantly says he agrees with Paul. I don't see why there is such an anti-Gary movement. They are not competing in the same election!!

It's just a strategy for advancing liberty as you say! It is not failed, that is absurd! Do you know how many people learned the truth through the Libertarian Party?? Ron Paul most likely wouldn't be in politics without it. You are shallow and political garbage from what I can see, you can't stand having anyone but "your guy" be a decent choice.

Freedom in our lifetime! - fiol.us

TelFiRE- you did not read the 5 essays, naughty naughty

Oh but you have an opinion that disagrees with mine that you did not read. You know when I write to liberals, that is I make my arguments that --getting rid of the minimum wage will raise employment --- these liberal-progressives types often do just what you did, fail to read my written argument. But they "respond" because they want me to know that I am "shallow" and "political garbage" and "uncaring" and few more choice words. It seems you have company. Now is it good company, I am not so sure.

Yes, GJ will get .05% of the vote. But it matters little if I'm half right and he gets .10% of the vote. My argument is not based upon that.

And to answer your question young man, "Do you know how many people learned the truth through the Libertarian Party?" --- Well yes I do, having voted for Ed Clark in 1980 at the age of 18 and continuing to vote and work for the LP until 2004. That is a LONG time, would you not agree?

And the answer to how many people learned "the truth" through the LP is NOT MUCH AT ALL. Very VERY LITTLE came to libertarian beliefs through any thing that the LP did. Most libertarians report that they were "born that way" or "came to it on their own" or "read a book by Ayn Rand" or in my own case "by watching FREE TO CHOOSE on pbs a 10 part video series". The LP's presidential races and activities did not get any credit, still does not. Those who have never before, but are NOW -- for their 1st time are thinking of voting GJ and the LP, are doing it because of the work we've done in the r3VOLution promoting Doctor Paul's speeches, books, and campaign.

So, I am here today to explain and remind everyone why the r3VOLution is working and why the LP is a failed strategy to ADVANCE the cause of Liberty. Sure, go ahead and make the "feel good about my self" vote, vote GJ on election day. I will either do that, or if its close between Obama and Romney, I may hold my nose and vote Obama just cause he's out in 4 years.

But that is .....NOT .... WHERE.... THE.... BATTLEFIELD ....FOR ....LIBERTY.....IS. Any time wasted promoting GJ or the LP is well, time and money wasted. The battlefield is here: http://www.dailypaul.com/238639/we-need-you-to-run-against-a...

Now, I know you would not call me "shallow political garbage" if you were not a deep wise reader yourself. So please take the time to really sit down and read those 5 essays. It will give you a bigger understanding of why the r3VOLution works...and you just might not think that I am some "shallow political garbage".

Treg

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

Lol.. Way to say a whole lot

Lol.. Way to say a whole lot about nothing and completely sidestep my point!

You are arguing against that which I did not say. I believe that's what's called a straw man good sir.

Freedom in our lifetime! - fiol.us

The System

The system is so unbelievably biased against 3rd parties that NO 3rd Party, not the LP or anyone, can win. So this desire, or belief that it is possible, is a fools errand. The LP cannot succeed in getting candidates elected. It has tried for decades, and failed.

The LP is not the same as the Liberty Movement. The movement can be successful by reinventing one of the two major parties, as has been done several times in the past century. In contrast NO THIRD PARTY has ever been successful in over 150 years.

The LP does has some value however. As long as it remains a source of enlightenment, a source of principle and knowledge, and focuses on education, it can do an enormous amount of good. As long as it doesnt try to win elections.

Once it tries to win elections the LP will be worthless, cause it cannot win.

For all practical purposes however, I think those who desire to change the system, should join one of the two major parties, and promote Libertarian Movement beliefs from within those parties. In other words there should be LP wings of both parties.

Then, and only then, will the Libertarian Movement be successful

True, there is bias in the political system

against 3rd parties. But, importantly, most of that bias is ballot access which the LP has worked hard to overcome. Most likely the LP will be on the ballot in ALL 50 states. Voters will have a choice staring them right in the face. The LP has won the ballot battle. Importantly, every vote they get helps them with future access to the ballot (at all levels of government).

The classic example of 3rd Party success is the New Democratic Party of Canada. They never one any elections but by holding the balance of political power they were able to get their ideas put into practice. That strategy might work for the rEVOLution. The more avenues of attack on the present system the greater our chances of success.

As far as for joining the Dems or GOP. I for one will not.

h-daddy

Several problems.

1. We have had 12 years of dismal performance by both the Republicans and Democrats.

2. The youth vote is being lost by Obama.

3. Marijuana legalization support is at a record high.

4. Obama has been super heavy handed in destroying civil rights.

5. Only 50% of the population fine themselves represented by the 2-party system.

6. A record 80% of the population want a 3rd option in November.

7. The Libertarian Party has never ran an electable candidate before, one that sounded rational, one that had experience, one that is pragmatic. They are now.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"Annoyance is step one of thinking"
"We're all in the same boat, it doesn't matter if you like me"

John Ashman, you are just being disrepectful now.

There is no dialog with you. You are not addressing any of the 5 essays or my arguments, you are just meming away. You probably are GJ. Those are verbatim spam talking points from GJ. Well GJ, if you wanted the support of the r3VOLution you would have got it if you would have ran for US SENATE.

#7 - Every LP candidate said that, thought that.
#6 - 80% does not matter one iota. Read my essay on Why We Must Re-brand liberty inside the 2 party duopoly. Then you'll understand why.
#5 - Read my essay on Why We Must Re-brand liberty inside the 2 party duopoly.
#4 - Again, Read my essay on Why We Must Re-brand liberty inside the 2 party duopoly.
#3 - Single issue success will not translate into your success, especially since you cannot bring yourself out of the closet and be for full on Drug Legalization, AND EXPLAIN WHY. You can't make the case. And when you hear the case, you waffle. We don't like wafflers.
#2 - The Youth vote will be back. Again Read my essay on Why We Must Re-brand liberty inside the 2 party duopoly.
#1 - Yes 12 years of bad performance? No, the Military, MSM, Banking, oligopoly at the top loves the 2 party duopoly just fine. It works for them. Hence, its only a bad performance according to you. When you understand it, you will see it works for them just fine.

Now that is the last time I will address you directly. If you continue to spam and meme your talking point responses, you will be ignored.

Treg

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

BTW...

You're absolutely welcome to pursue your strategy, I'm all for it.

But, in order to prove you're one of them, are you going to vote for Romney? Or are you going to quietly vote for Johnson?

What good is being on the inside if you become one of them and not one of us?

I'm not a Libertarian, I'm a constituitonal conservative. I don't belong to any party. But I influence my Republican friends constantly by pointing out that the drug war in unconstitutional, that the immigration laws are unconstitutional, that social security is unconstitutional, etc, etc. I persuade them and implant the idea of following the Constitution even when it doesn't agree with them. They think I'm a Republican like them but I'm not. And then I tell them I'm going to vote for Gary Johnson and they say "oh, yeah, huh. I've been hearing about him, I'll check him out".

But the first thing we need to do is stop the fantasy that Ron Paul will win. He can't win. He is jockeying for influence and disruption, and that is good, but people shouldn't be doing this because they think he can win. That's already impossible.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"Annoyance is step one of thinking"
"We're all in the same boat, it doesn't matter if you like me"

Well, I'm glad your such a

Well, I'm glad your such a good predicter then.

Gary is outpolling any Libertarian candidate ever by as much as 20 or 30:1.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"Annoyance is step one of thinking"
"We're all in the same boat, it doesn't matter if you like me"

Flawed logic.

Just because the LP has been unsuccessful in other instances, does not necessarily mean it will be unsuccessful again. In something as random as politics, the previous results do not predict the future, any more than previous coin flips predict the next flip.

I do agree that the R3voltion is much different than the LP, and much more likely to be able to stand on its own, and be competitive as an independent third party. Taking over the shell of the LP is just that, a convenient efficient mechanism to proceed.

Co-opting the GOP requires compromise, after compromise, until the r3voltiom is but a whisper of its original self, and will be unrecognizable. Go back and look at the Videos from 2007 if you don't believe me, its already happening.

Treg, I've seen you speak the truth here many times, but not this time. Winning by too many compromises is not winning at all and what profits a man to gain the world and loose his soul.