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Milton Friedman on Libertarianism, Humility, and Tolerance

Based on the past weeks events, and the reaction of some here. I would highly recommend we watch this video.

"There is a related strand of utopianism in the libertarian movement that I believe is also productive of intollerance and is fundamentally inconsistent with the basic values I believe we stand for." - Milton Friedman 1990

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bibfslEFk2s

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Wow. Great video. Thanks.

I fully agree that it doesn't make sense to be against all cases of "initiation of force." Like he said, what's so bad about initiating force to stop a person that's about to jump off a bridge to commit suicide?

I think the anti-initation of force libertarians are a major problem for libertarianism. They're the ones led to bizarre conclusions like opposition to voting.

RAND PAUL 2016.

Terms like statist and

Terms like statist and socialist are ridiculous; they are like the terms nazi. It is a sliding scale. To an anarchist like Molyneux, Ron Paul is a socialistic statist.

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

Big time bump!

Friedman was wrong on monetary theory. But, there IS an element of libertarianism that is HIGHLY intolerant of anyone that is not "enlightened" enough to be completely pure. Lew Rockwell is a perfect example. And, again, I have great respect for Rockwell and the great work he has done at the von Mises Institute, but encouraging people NOT to vote ever at all is utter NONSENSE! You can't change things in this country if you're so stuck on yourself that you don't vote for candidates who don't pass your perfectionist, libertarian criterion.

Milton Friedman was a socialist.

He was what he hated.

Withholding tax and Negative Income Tax, need I say more?

The sooner his ideas are replaced by the ideas of Mises, the better off we will be.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

I assume you mean "von

I assume you mean "von Mises". Unless you were talking about Moses.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"Annoyance is step one of thinking"
"We're all in the same boat, it doesn't matter if you like me"

He is commonly refered to as Mises

everybody here knows who you are talking about when you say Mises.

You don't have to say Ludwig von Mises, or von Mises, every one here is familiar with him.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

No

He speaks about that topic in this video. I suggest you watch, since you seem very intolerant

I am intolerant of coercion.

There are things we are supposed to be intolerant of, murder, theft, fraud, and all other forms of initiatory violence, as well as the people who advocate for them.

I don't tolerate violations of the Non-Aggression Principle.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

Huh.

"I don't tolerate violations of the Non-Aggression Principle."

But you have a fit if another candidate leaves it open that he might not tolerate it either, you claim he's not a "real" libertarian. How ironic.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"Annoyance is step one of thinking"
"We're all in the same boat, it doesn't matter if you like me"

If you don't..

If you don't believe in the Non-Aggression Principle, then by definition you are not a libertarian.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

That's not true.

That's only one form of libertarianism, probably the most popular. But it's not held by people like von Mises, Hayek, and Friedman. They're in the "consequentialist" school of libertarians

RAND PAUL 2016.

NAP is not exclusive to only Natural Rights libertarians

There are both Deontological and Consequentialist justifications for the Non-Aggression Principle.

Mises and Hayek were both Classical Liberals, they pre-existed modern libertarianism.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

You're mistaken.

Consequentialist do not agree with the NAP. They may think it usually has the best consequences to not initiate force, but none of them agree that force should NEVER be initiated. For example, that's why some libertarians like Hayek supported a welfare state.

Think about it...a consequentialist would have a very tough time proving that EVERY case of refraining from initiation of force is going to have the best consequences. That's an impossible task.

Jeffrey Mirons is an example of a contemporary living libertarian consequentialist.

RAND PAUL 2016.

I wasn't saying all consequentialists support the NAP...

I was saying that there is a consequentialist justification for it.

In my opinion if someone initiates force against someone else, they can call it libertarian all they want, but it doesn't make it so.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

Name one

consequentialist that supports the NAP as a universal rule.

RAND PAUL 2016.

You are aware...

You are aware that there are many consequentialists in the Libertarian Party, which requires adherence to the Non-Aggression Principle as a prerequisite for membership, aren't you?

We see minarchist libertarians who believe in Non-Aggression Principle, fall back on consequentialism when confronted with voluntarism, all the time.

Consequentialism is so full of holes that it can be used as a justification for anything, and I do mean ANYTHING.

Why is it so hard to see that there can be a case made by consequentialism for the Non-Aggression Principle.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

If a consequentialist is an official card-carrying member

of the Libertarian Party then he lied when he signed the promise to never support initiation of force.

Again, who is an example of a consequentialist libertarian writer who agrees with the NAP?

RAND PAUL 2016.

I don't know of any NAP adherent consequentialist writers

But, I don't pay any attention to consequentialists.

I have however run into many people who have held both beliefs simultaneously, in the course of debating Anarcho-capitalism VS Minarchism.

They are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

Brother, don't feed the animals at the zoo, especially a day old

kind; like the welfare state, the more you feed it, you'll simply get more of it!

LOL

If I DIDN'T know that there weren't for insane voluminous amount of trolls even more so than usual especially after Mutt WRONGney endorsement, I'd feel like I'm in a Twilight Zone if these actually were legit DP members asking these most asinine 'questions'; can't believe we're still parsing what libertarianism is on THIS site after 5yrs, no less.

Funny, you'd think Mutt WRONGneyites would be rather happy and satisfied with Rand in their court now, so why bother trolling here?

Must not be satisfied with the reality of Mutt's actual delegate count.
Muahahahaha!!!!

.D

Predictions in due Time...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGDisyWkIBM

"Let it not be said that no one cared, that no one objected once it's realized that our liberties and wealth are in jeopardy." - Dr. Ronald Ernest Paul

You'll love this guy, Merc.

He's already been banned once for trolling.

And he say's Rothbard's not a libertarian, what a joke.

This guy's one of those LP trolls, they came like sharks when they saw the blood in the water.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

lol, guess Rand' endorsement was like a RINO Troll BatSignal!

I'll do you one better: Kumar.

Now, I couldn't think of a more wacky character if I were writing a script! I mean there are "trolls," then there are trolls:
http://www.dailypaul.com/239341#comment-2545114

He's another Tarpley Moses worshiper who characterizes Mises as a "fraud," but not the Misesian Austrian School of Econ.

Truly wonder how some can be so utterly cognitively dissonant. Oh right... because they're merely using 'our' buzzwords for effect..

Actually, its seems like all of these particular recent line of attacks against Dr. Paul and the Pauls in general, and against Mises and Hayek all started since Tarp's interview at Chantilly by both AJ and Adam. While these moronic statist views of Tarpley's have long been tolerated by those of us who respected his geopolitical acumen enough to let slide as we've discussed several times as of late, at Chantilly, Webster truly, simply went into Fukushima meltdown mode.

And ever since, every single talking point he's laid out are being regurgitated all over the web, DP and YT comment sections: like how RP's sole point of R3VOLution was purely for nepotism and hiring 61+ family members (as if, if you're Ron Paul whom the Ruling Class seeks to undermine you at every juncture that's even a 'bad' thing vs. hiring professional overpaid political mercenaries is an automatically a better or more moral decision. Though no doubt some who have leeched on to his close circle obviously are questionable (Benton, Olson, Tate, et al). But Dr. Paul is who he is, along with all his 'managerial flaws.' Hey, if you're a non-micromanager, trusting someone is a risk you always take.)

Or, to accusing Mt. Pelerin Society = worse than Bilderberg meme, and how Mises & Hayek were paid agents of the NWO (yes, at least Mises I know for fact were at one point funded by Rockefeller, just as Rothbard for a time was paid by Kochs, until they knew better, as if that automatically is enough to characterize them as a complete 'puppet' in the same league as Mutt or oBUSHma, or their equal memed operation to fund Marx/Engels, Trotsky, Lenin, Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler, Mao, etc. But Hamilton-Lincoln-FDR worshiping Tarpley apparently deludes "libertarianism" is a strict creation of the Rockefellers et al, a 20th Century phenomenon, 'cause you know as we all learned from history Thomas Jefferson, Lysander Spooner, and Frederic Bastiat were ALL Rockefeller's agents, when he took HG Wells's time machine to fund them, YEARS before his own era! NOT!), how Austrian economics is what brought us to this current econ malaise, how public unions would save us all as if they were the sole consistent bulwark against Military Industrial Complex Wall St. Banksters!

Don't know, but last I checked, never seen Teachers Union protesting NDAA, Patriot Act, illegal wars, torture, or even Wall St. Bailouts en masse, or the Federal Reserve, or more to Tarpley's point: protest Mil. Ind. Complex.

Ah... to be a 'genius' and be so stuck in your own bubble. I'd like to crack open and see how many 'My Little Unicorns' Tarpley keeps daydreaming them in his neural barn of alchemical barnacles of hardy har har.

Must be all the Webster Tarpley douchebags. Speaking of which, it was kinda funny listening to AJ being spent, fatigued from the rage and angst at the prospect of Rand's endorsement of Bilderberg Mitt, and watching him so tired and obviously a bit too soured to even bother 'trying to defend' Dr. Paul, his honor, Austrian School, and libertarianism in general against Tarpley's outright smear vs. Rand and Ron all day. Would you believe Tarp equated Mt. Pelerin Society founded by several Nobel Econ Laureates and antiwar activists to be on equal par with Bilderbergs, as if they were CFR, or Brookings, or AEI or AIPAC who actually DO OWN CONgress??

And perhaps because AJ wans't aware or were too tired to bother, he couldn't or be bothered to refute Tarp's charges?

Predictions in due Time...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGDisyWkIBM

"Let it not be said that no one cared, that no one objected once it's realized that our liberties and wealth are in jeopardy." - Dr. Ronald Ernest Paul

Tarpley and the Greenbackers

Tarpley's nonsense is practically the same as the Greenbacker drivel we see here all the time, except Tarpley has a larger platform to spout his idiocy from.

That's why we need someone like Tom Woods to address him, we foot soldiers can only do so much, we need one of the top guns of LvMI to refute him publicly.

Mises received barely enough to live off of from the Rockefeller Foundation, and once they realized his ideology would be of no use to their cronyist goals, they abruptly cut off his funding.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

I vote for Woods/Murphy/Wenzel/Molyneux vs. Tarpley debate!

post-haste!

Yup:

"Mises received barely enough to live off of from the Rockefeller Foundation, and once they realized his ideology would be of no use to their cronyist goals, they abruptly cut off his funding."

Which is what that Kumar kid refuses to research, or understand the full context of. Oh, WTF am I talking about, the kid's a troll. LOL. Oye vey; even with trolls, my initial reaction is to try to lay seeds and 'convert.'

lol.

Predictions in due Time...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGDisyWkIBM

"Let it not be said that no one cared, that no one objected once it's realized that our liberties and wealth are in jeopardy." - Dr. Ronald Ernest Paul

again

He discusses your issues with the Friedman in this video, watch...

In fact Ron Paul shares Milton's view on the approach of going from Statism to liberty. Milton believes it is immoral, for example, to eliminate medicare all together. Instead Milton wants a transition. That is also Ron's view, as explained in his budget proposal.

Those aren't my only issues with him.

He has many more qualifiers as a socialist.

The Chicago School of Economics he advocated is just a slightly more free market friendly flavor of the Keynesian monster.

Walter Block once famously called Milton Friedman a "Road Socialist" in a debate, Friedman later admitted he was one.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

Mises agrees with you..

www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkQfK8hn0ds

hehe

No one can find a safe way out if society is sweeping towards destruction. Everyone,in his own interests, must thrust himself vigorously into the intellectual battle. None can stand aside with unconcern; the interests of everyone hang on the result. - LvM

I assume you mean "von

I assume you mean "von Mises".

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"Annoyance is step one of thinking"
"We're all in the same boat, it doesn't matter if you like me"

You wouldn't have to assume anything

if you had checked out the video.

But yes, Ludwig von Mises

like "Mises.org"

like the "Mises Institute" Mises.

like the Mises quote in my sig

Who else?

No one can find a safe way out if society is sweeping towards destruction. Everyone,in his own interests, must thrust himself vigorously into the intellectual battle. None can stand aside with unconcern; the interests of everyone hang on the result. - LvM

Don't let that guy ruffle your feathers

He's just an ass.

Yesterday, he tried to make the argument that Murray Rothbard and all AnCaps/Voluntarists aren't libertarians.

And he rejects the Non-Aggression Axiom, yet thinks he's Mr. libertarian.

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard

The best part about being an Austrian...

Is you get to call Milton Friedman a socialist! lol

Check out the Laissez-Faire Journal at LFJournal.com


"The State is a gang of thieves writ large." - Murray Rothbard