11 votes

The decline of the R3VOLUTION...

I am beginning to wonder if many Ron Paul supporters truly understand the principles and ideas they are fighting for, or if they've merely jumped on a bandwagon. The amount of ignorant and frankly idiotic statements I read on this message board lately astounds me, particularly those comments that argue AGAINST the principles of liberty (though the poster does not realize they are doing so). It seems more and more like many people here are simply contrarians and followers, they joined the movement only because it is unpopular or un-mainstream, or they found something to 'belong' to, even though they don't have the first idea what it's all about, and know even less about politics in general.

The latest absurdity comes in the backlash against Rand Paul voting NO on GMO labelling. REALLY? We should be arguing against Federal mandating of ANY LABELING whatsoever! Personal liberty includes personal responsibility - which means, if you don't want to eat genetically modified foods, do the research to find out what you can and can not eat - don't depend on the government to strong arm companies into telling you.

Personally, I don't mind labeling (saves a lot of time!), but it's about PRINCIPLE, and for all the posturing I see on here about "not compromising our principles!" and bla bla bla, I am quite surprised at the community's reaction to Rand's vote.




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It's the number one most abused clause

in the entire Constitution. Second worst is the commerce clause, for similar reasons of generalized abuse.

Madison stated that if that general welfare clause was ever used as a catch-all reason to circumvent the limitations of the Constitition, that the entire document should "be thrown into the fire, at once".

The general welfare clause is the bastion of leftists and subversives(both pretty much the same thing).

woops. doubled it up.

woops. doubled it up.

You have to look beneath the surface.

On the surface, they are "arguing some issue", and taking it to the "nth degree" and can't let go.

Under the surface, they are engaged in an effort to fracture and fragment what remains of the movement, after their initial attacks concluded.

Do NOT make the mistake of thinking that everybody on this forum is a Ron Paul supporter. There are many people here with ulterior motives, who are aiming to swerve and destroy.

There you go with the contradicting

and idiotic statement that just wont go away.

"We should be arguing against Federal mandating of ANY LABELING whatsoever! Personal liberty includes personal responsibility - which means, if you don't want to eat genetically modified foods, do the research to find out what you can and can not eat..."

On the one hand you say that no labels should be mandated which means that anyone can or cannot put labels on there product. THEN you say we should research what is in our food when there is no way for you to find out because the business don't have to disclose what they are selling. And since there are no regulations over labeling then anyone can put what ever label they want on there product just to appease the market.

I am finding that you so called "true libertarians" or "purists" suffer from the same problem as the communists. You have a great idea that just doesn't work in the real world.

1) Privately funded consumer

1) Privately funded consumer advocacy groups exist...

2) It is perfectly legal for citizens or organizations to scientifically test consumer goods and publish their findings...

3) Individual states, counties, or towns could prohibit the sale of products that don't have labels.

False advertising (stating your product contains things it doesn't, claiming it's not GMO when it is) is illegal.

Thanks for your time.

When the opposition can't make a comeback argument

then you know you have won.

Thank you for posting this!

Thank you for posting this!

How would Ron have voted?

"The federal government lacks constitutional authority to mandate labeling of products containing genetically-modified food. Furthermore, those who do not wish to consume genetically-modified products should be leery of federally-mandated labeling because history shows that federal regulatory agencies are susceptible to ‘capture,’ where the regulators end up serving the interest of the business they are supposed to control.

In the case of labeling, federal agencies could redefine the meaning of ‘modified’ to allow genetically-engineered food on the market without fully-informing consumers of the presence of genetically- engineered ingredients.

Instead of federal regulation, consumers should demand that manufactures provide full information and refuse to buy those products that are not fully labeled. Once producers see there is a demand for non-genetically-engineered products they will act to fulfill that demand. Of course, makers of genetically-engineered food should be held legally responsible if they fraudulently market their products or harm anyone."

- Ron Paul

That has already happened with the FDA

They don't do many of there own studies the companies do them. And 40 percent of there funding comes from the companies seeking approval of the products or those products would not of been allowed on the market without being safe in first place.

Plus they have a bill in congress now that will exempt them from any law suits like in Brazil where they were sued and lost billions. It is kind of hard to argue for something that damages other species and also hurts human health that's not Freedom it is just disinformation.

Conformist, thanks for

Conformist, thanks for displaying RP's answer. I especially like

because history shows that federal regulatory agencies are susceptible to ‘capture,’ where the regulators end up serving the interest of the business they are supposed to control.

The bolded portion is meant to stress the regulators become guards of the businesses. The regulators let in the businesses to do what they want while attacking business not those let-in businesses. Couldn't draw a better instance of fascism, the togetherness of business and government.

School's fine. Just don't let it get in the way of thinking. -Me

I had no idea

we all had to be in lock-step to be considered a part of the r3volution.
I see it this way - I don't want to eat GM products. I cannot know what is or isn't GM unless its labelled. I try to grow as much vegetables and fruit as I can but I'm not the best home gardener so do rely on farmers markets, etc to supplement what I grow.
I also don't like the idea that GM pollen affects my home-grwon organic produce or organic farmers' products - but that's a whole 'nother issue.
Right now there are labelling laws. Until the day the govt relinquishes that control, I say use it to label GMO products.
Please do not be so elitist as to decide what I have to believe to be a part of anything.
IMO, you have shown your disrespect for individual opinion.

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
James Madison

I think that,

you hit the nail on the head when you said that "I don't want to eat GM products. I cannot know what is or isn't GM unless its labelled." What you say is true as it is for most all of us, but what I would ask is that you consider your own purchasing power to make companies label their product. No matter how good it sounds, government involvement usually means some form of corruption that is not in your best interest. It's not so much wanting to force you or anyone to be in lock step, it is more of us encouraging each other to apply liberty principles when faced with an issue, just like Dr. Paul does. I think he has made it clear that it is how he has remained so consistent in his views.
Some here may be rude or crass I agree, but try to look past that. I know it's hard at times, but I believe the sincere folks here are really just trying to watch out for each other and help remind each other to always apply our principles. At least I hope so.

reedr3v's picture

You fall into the same trap as have so many

so-called revolutions of the past, including the recent past such as the Tea Party and Occupy. Those people never had principles that guided their policies and actions in every instance, so they either disintegrated or allowed their ideals to be corrupted for short term "gain" that backfired and brought systemic corruption due to power for sale, or tyranny. It happens over and over nauseatingly through history.

If one does not keep a movement rooted in true universal principles such as the Nonaggression Principle for the Liberty movement, there is no chance that all of your good intentions can withstand the onslaughts and lures of political power. Try to use the Gun aggressively for any good you name, it will back fire and shoot down all you cherish.

The Granger's picture

One of your best posts RIGHT ON

TY!!!

STAND WITH RAND 2016

reedr3v's picture

You fall into the same trap as have so many

so-called revolutions of the past, including the recent past such as the Tea Party and Occupy. Those people never had principles that guided their policies and actions in every instance, so they either disintegrated or allowed their ideals to be corrupted for short term "gain" that backfired and brought systemic corruption due to power for sale, or tyranny. It happens over and over nauseatingly through history.

If one does not keep a movement rooted in true universal principles such as the Nonaggression Principle for the Liberty movement, there is no chance that all of your good intentions can withstand the onslaughts and lures of political power. Try to use the Gun aggressively for any good you name, it will back fire and shoot down all your cherish.

I have respect for others

I have respect for others opinions, but little patience for ideological inconsistency. Though I'm not much of a fan of ideology any way.

The issue is that so many are persecuting Rand for allegedly betraying his principles, and then going and doing it themselves by saying he voted the wrong way. Free market economic theory (which they claim to support) has solutions to these problems that do not require government force.

I understand that the complexities of this issue (particularly when we come to the GM pollen mixing with organic) seem to necessitate government action, but the irony is that this is exactly the kind of "compromise of principles" that so many are disparaging Rand for.

I am curious.

I agree with your post, but what do you mean when you say, "I'm not much of a fan of ideology anyway"? It sounds contradictory but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Please elaborate, I'd like to hear what you mean by that. Thanks.

John F

I should have said dogmatic

I should have said dogmatic ideology? My point being that those who criticize Rand the hardest seem to be very rigid and dogmatic in their beliefs, ideas of strict free-market principles, etc. I don't agree with that way of being, but if one is, they should be consistent. Instead, they let Rand's "betrayal" blind them on issues like these, where they SHOULD agree with his vote, as if they were in the Senate one would suspect them to vote the same way. But they are inconsistent on the issue out of personal, not intellectual bias. It leads me to believe that these types are more intrigued by HAVING a rigid philosophy, fixed beliefs, being part of a movement/team, or whatever, more than they are by the philosophy and principles themselves.

Thank you.

That clears it up very well. I agree with you. Hopefully I won't fall into this category, as I strongly differ with Rand's endorsement of Romney but not at all with the GMO thing. To me, the principle he betrayed was the ends justifying the means. Some believe that's true. I don't. Again, thanks for clarifying.

John F

Truth in Advertising

ACTUALLY there is a government standard to decide here-- can a GMO apple be called an apple. Presumably it can be challenged as a matter of truth in advertising.

Excuse me? Enough time does

Excuse me? Enough time does not exist for a person to contact a company or check the internet regarding every single box/jar/package of food they buy. That's ridiculous.

I suppose we don't need labels on food at all. We can just choose to not buy commercial food from companies that don't label. We can just grow our own or buy directly from farmers we trust. That's what I do.

If food companies want my business - they will provide the info I desire/need - or lose the sell.

Excellent Point....

"If food companies want my business - they will provide the info I desire/need - or lose the sell."

EXACTLY!

I agree but...

I think that you're being a little harsh. I do agree that people are missing the point as far as what true freedom means but I doubt it's due to the fact that everyone jumped onto the bandwagon. Stuff like this happens because people are often misguided. I saw the same thing happen back when after 9/11 many people in the local Libertarian party which I was a part of began beating the war drum and calling for an invasion of Iraq. Sometimes people are confused, scared or misguided. I think now more and more people recognize the danger of Monsanto and GMO just they don't fully understand that it's not all right to use government power even if it seems to be for the right reason or a good cause. But there are many principled supports of freedom and liberty and I believe that we can properly educate people on what freedom means and how to move forward.

Politics, freedom, truth, Ron Paul.Feel free to check out my blog on politics in my profile.

Why we are here.....

While everyone may not be here for the same reasons you are, you need to respect that they are here.

This movement has pulled in people from all belief systems because it's focus is pure and rooted in Love of country and a desire to see some honesty and truth in out political system.

The reason some many have gravitated this way is the focus on the BIG important issue instead of arguing in circles over trivial matters.

This movement has always been fragile and some people deal with set backs or let-downs in very different ways. Libertarians trying to pull you to Gary Johnson, People lashing out at Rand and claiming the sky is falling to name a few courses.

The point is,we are a community built of weak and strong, we need them all and if there is one chance to get Paul in office I promise you all of our people will show up and fight.

Silk Shirt's picture

Great comment.

That's what I meant to say!

Lord Acton, Lord Chief Justice of England, 1875 - "The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the People v. The Banks."

Its a Fraud issue. Its an issue to hide ingredients

And like it or not, the standard of Consumer's Right to FULL DISCLOSURE of what your product IS has lots of case law behind it. Private Property is one thing, hiding what your private property is is another. If I make "chocolate chip cookies" and sell them to you and its Not Chocolate, I must disclose that. If I did not disclose that too you, that you were not eating chocolate', it was Really just 'other ingredients but NOT chocolate, you'd rightfully be pissed.

Similarly, if you grow "peaches" and its "peaches" with fish genes and human genes, they are no longer "peaches" in the normal sense and this MUST be or SHOULD be disclosed or its fraud. Monsanto wants to pass off its GMO foods as the real deal. It ain't.

Rand Paul's vote was a failure to think through the issue.

I wonder if Ron Paul voted differently on this in the past.

Treg

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My GOD you are ignorant. This

My GOD you are ignorant. This is why you will NEVER succeed at life. You don't accept science. Which is why your life is worthless in modern society. IT is NOT fraud and a GM peach IS a peach.

Let me guess...you think the Earth is 5000 years old and dinosaurs didn't exist.

I suspect Ron Paul would also

I suspect Ron Paul would also have voted NO for the following reason:

If you sold me those cookies, I could take legal action against you. That possibility would deter you from falsely advertising your cookies in the first place. The role of government is to settle the dispute and punish you for committing fraud, not forcibly prevent you from trying to defraud me.

In any case, the free-market solution to this problem is seen in most grocery stores: Many companies that do NOT sell genetically modified foods advertise this on their labels. Theoretically, other companies will follow suit (fearing consumers will assume their products are GM), until we are able to determine a food is GM if the label DOES NOT make any claims to the contrary. No government force necessary.

A word on "consumer rights", full disclosure, and case law: Look to the Constitution for what our Federal government can and can not do, not to what a judge decided based on their own interpretation of their own limits.

i have every right to hide my private property thank you.

Actually if it was a big enough problem for me I would quit buying the companies product... look at all these hypicrites on here... the free market is the free market you don't use force to get your way you imbiciles. Stuff like this is why we have problems like monsanto with state subsidies. You think a label is going to change anything? your still going to eat shit food if it has been processed, grow a garden or get used to it... I don't eat organic and im perectly healthy. Stop using my tax money to push your FDA regulatory agenda.

Hmmm....

I totally agree with you that this SHOULD be disclosed...but the problem the way I see it is that Monsanto has paid off the right folks so that the definition of what is "real" has become skewed.

It's like the "High Fructose Corn Syrup" commercials where they say "sugar is sugar".
They get away with that crap because somehow they can still call it sugar. (although on a side bar...they did lose their case to change the name to "corn sugar" since it is a syrup and regular corn syrup is already an ingredient)

I still think it is going to boil down to folks buying what is proven to be "real"...which will be small companies. When the money dries up the bigger companies will start to label all their items as "non-GMO" and then they will have to "prove" that they really are.

Again...just my opinion...