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July 4th 2013 Liberty Day Challenge

Two directions are possible from this moment on as proven by historical precedent. Either be subjected to suffering by Legalized Criminals and be forced to pay all debts collected in that evil enterprise or move in the direction of Liberty.

Make my day.

How about July 4th 2013?

If by that date the American people, as one, have invented, produced, and supplied a number of competitive legal monies, then those American people will take back their power to prosper, at will, for their own and for posterity.

Sign on in spirit or sign on in actual reality, either way the days will move in a direction and the Legal Criminals score their progress with or without your willful participation toward their goal of absolute despotism.

May God have mercy on our souls.

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If we can include the thoughts here...


I'm down. It's not just about alternative mediums of exchange. It's about everything that's unconstitutional which won't be fixed by people profiting by it being broken.

As for the alternative medium of exchange see here:

As well as being lawful... it is also just as legal as home depot using store credits.

You can use me as agent if you want to join and kick the tires.
http://www.bart-mart.com/vincent (you have to have an agent to join)

Which constitution?

Do you acknowledge in your references the monopoly constitution that creates a monopoly of force or do you have a more competitive one in mind?


Excellent question.

Go to the head of the class!

"we do establish and ordain this Constitution for the United States of America" (review the document from the archives - the U is actually capitalized contrary to what is frequently promulgated on this issue).

There is only one constitution of this country:
"Constitution for the United States of America"

Then for the CORPORATION by-laws:
"Constitution of the United States"

You are not my teacher in this case.

If you lend moral and material support to the monopoly power (criminal power) then you are the problem, not the solution.


Excuse me?

How am I lending support to the monopoly power?

I don't know.

But if you are, then your moral and material support can be measured.

I can ask.

Do you support morally and materially this thing you call The Constitution of the United States?


Technically I support

the "Constitution for the United States of America" - it does not give any monopoly force. I already had this debate with someone on my talkshoe. It is a box we placed government in. Period.


You can listen to debate #1 to get my true thoughts on this issue. Those that believe this LIE about the constitution ALSO believe they are "US citizens." A US citizen is the title of a US INC employee. As an employee you must follow the legislative rules (statutes and acts) of the corporation board (the de-facto congress).

The constitution has ABSOLUTELY NO FORCE OF LAW on any of the people. It ONLY regulates GOVERNMENT.

Competition in viewpoints?

Do you intend to monopolize the discussion?

You have admitted to supporting The Constitution of the Untied States, with a qualifier, such as "cover my ass" or what, "damage control", "plausible deniability", "limited liability", what?

You "technically" support this or that?

Your admission serves well enough to alert me to your viewpoint, why would I need to listen to any more if it?

Here are many competitive viewpoints as to your monopoly Constitution:


Here is one:


Here is a quote:

"Mr. GEORGE MASON. Mr. Chairman, whether the Constitution be good or bad, the present clause clearly discovers that it is a national government, and no longer a Confederation. I mean that clause which gives the first hint of the general government laying direct taxes. The assumption of this power of laying direct taxes does, of itself, entirely change the confederation of the states into one consolidated government. This power, being at discretion, unconfined, and without any kind of control, must carry every thing before it. The very idea of converting what was formerly a confederation to a consolidated government, is totally subversive of every principle which has hitherto governed us. This power is calculated to annihilate totally the state governments. Will the people of this great community submit to be individually taxed by two different and distinct powers? Will they suffer themselves to be doubly harassed? These two concurrent powers cannot exist long together; the one will destroy the other: the general government being paramount to, and in every respect more powerful than the state governments, the latter must give way to the former. Is it to be supposed that one national government will suit so extensive a country, embracing so many climates, and containing inhabitants so very different in manners, habits, and customs? It is ascertained, by history, that there never was a government over a very extensive country without destroying the liberties of the people: history also, supported by the opinions of the best writers, shows us that monarchy may suit a large territory, and despotic governments ever so extensive a country, but that popular governments can only exist in small territories. Is there a single example, on the face of the earth, to support a contrary opinion? Where is there one exception to this general rule? Was there ever an instance of a general national government extending over so extensive a country, abounding in such a variety of climates, &c., where the people retained their liberty? I solemnly declare that no man is a greater friend to a firm union of the American states than I am; but, sir, if this great end can be obtained without hazarding the rights of the people, why should we recur to such dangerous principles?"

The monopoly constitution replaced a voluntary association of competitive States with their own competitive Constitutions.

You are correct in saying that "it does not give any monopoly force", as I know that the criminals take that force, monopolize it, by force of lies, threats, and violence. The "Constitution" is merely a cover.


Error message again

I don't think he is right about this:

"Ron Paul is SCREWING us. I can't stand it anymore and I'm not going to hold it in. HE OWES everyone who worked DAMN HARD to come out and throw his HARD EARNED support to SOMEONE.... endorse SOMEONE DAMNIT... this is driving me up a wall with these lame arse hints about "maybe voting for Gary Johnson.""

Why confuse the two issues?

Is the focus of attention on the Bond issue or the voting issue?

To me the voting issue is easy to understand, it is a circus, it is in the realm of entertainment, as in "Bread and Circuses", it is a POWER SHUNT, whereby any defensive power that could have been used to Defend Liberty is power used to do nothing or worse than doing nothing to Defend Liberty UNLESS a Ron Paul (not a Gary Johnson) is involved in the election process (not necessarily the mere, and useless, act of voting: because votes are not counted accurately).


End the FED
End the IRS
Bring the Troops Home

If a Gary Johnson wants to do 3 but he will keep 1 and 2 working, then the Troops are coming Home to collect the POWER to keep 1 and 2 going, yes or no?


Maybe, to me, is a solid yes: where those troops come home because there will be more power used to keep the victims powerless UNLESS the FED (or anything like it) is ended WHILE the IRS is ended (or anything like it at the National Level).

In short: The Country has to return to a competitive form of voluntary government such as a Confederation/Federation/Republic where the quality of competitiveness is not outside the LAW.

Which Law?

You know already.

God's Law (Golden Rule for short?)

Common Law (specific methods of enforcing God's Law?)

Equity (not the false meaning of the word)

Which Law?

Why confuse one with the other?

What is the point of confusing one with the other?

Which one with which other?

Good with Bad.

Why confuse the two?

Why not focus attention on one thing at a time?

You tell me, please.

"But I haven't looked at the stuff on the Bond site. I will try to do that better next week. Do you want me to?"

I don't want to DIRECT you in any direction because I see the greatest value in our discussions being the value of your use of your independent thoughts and actions, but if I had 2 topics I prefer to discuss they are now:

Liberty Day Challenge (with positive moves toward ideas such as Product 1 and Product 2)

Actionable Goals that can encourage rather than threaten regular people, or The People, in defense of Liberty: such as the Bond Issue.

The whole topic of Voting, now that Ron Paul is no longer a force to be gaining POWER, is a NON-ISSUE. The Election is over unless a Ron Paul (End the FED, End the IRS, Bring the Troops Home) returns into the FIGHT as a POWERFUL FORCE.

I could be wrong, and the OP of the bond issue could be right, about the Election. I prefer not to waste time and energy on it, at this point. I could clean the bathroom and be doing more for Liberty than wasting my power on the Election (without a Ron Paul type POWER in the Election) in my opinion.

"I think Ron Paul wanted to abolish the EPA if I am remembering correctly. And here you have people jumping on the GJ bandwagon and he supports the EPA. I can't see how people are so easily swayed."

Ron Paul, if I can speak for him, which is a stretch, but I will do it anyway, wanted to get the Federal Government (which is actually National not Federal) out of the "Collectivism" business entirely, so sure, as a matter of fact, the EPA is NONE OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENTS BUSINESS unless every FREE STATE in the VOLUNTARY UNION, every Sovereign State Government in the Federation demands, in unison, to make their hired employees at the Federal Government add that to the list of things done by the Federal Government.

Where have the State governments, in unison, demanded that the Federal Employees collect money directly from The People and then redistribute that power taken that way, involuntarily, to whomever, or whatever, those Federal Agents want to buy in any case whatsoever?

Back to Patrick Henry:


"I rose yesterday to ask a question which arose in my own mind. When I asked that question, I thought the meaning of my interrogation was obvious. The fate of this question and of America may depend on this. Have they said, We, the states? Have they made a proposal of a compact between states? If they had, this would be a confederation. It is otherwise most clearly a consolidated government."

Those are not JUST symbols of English arranged on paper. That is information being transferred from Patrick Henry to you by me.

What did Patrick Henry know that was worth knowing?

If someone is going to challenge Ron Paul, it seems to me, then someone aught to have something worth challenging Ron Paul in FACT, not fiction.

That is where Ron Paul's "argument" passes the test and anyone else I have yet to deal with FAILS to pass the test.

Ron Paul knows the way back to a Confederation, or Republic, or whichever word actually works to transfer the FACT that government has to be voluntary, or as voluntary as is humanly possible, because that is the way back to a FREE MARKET.

That is why the BOND Issue fits so well, because that is driven by those competitive choices that make up the FREE MARKET, by way of competition.

You don't see, but eventually you will see, because you keep fighting, and don't let yourself, or anyone else, accuse you of being a coward again, if that is happening, I can't know, but if that is happening, if you are losing power internally, then don't let that happen, you are very brave, demonstrably brave, to the extent that you can be brave, like a bear with her cubs, you will be the bravest you can be, even if you don't want to be, ever, in that situation where you WILL be uncompromisingly brave.

Known better - please.


That's my quote

and I stand by it 100%. I do not usually refer back to it however because I know about the commandment:

"Thou Shalt Not Diss Ron Paul!"

The FACT is... if he was going to drop out... not officially state that he was running independently... it was wrong to not try to galvanize his support towards someone. Ron Paul in 2010 endorsed Gary Johnson if he was not going to be running himself.

I take issue with this. In this particular case... Ron Paul chose party loyalty over doing what was best for the country. There was nothing unconstitutional about this of course. I'm simply stating that it was wrong of him to just leave all his supporters hanging and not at least let us know categorically who he would want in his absence of seeking the presidency.

If you want to demonize me because I criticized Ron Paul... so be it. I worship God... not Ron Paul. I'm allowed to disagree and also be critical of him. Just because he had such a great track record doesn't mean he's somehow sacrosanct.

There's no conspiracy here. I picked that name RPvGoldman Sachs to demonstrate to people there were only two choices: Ron Paul or Goldman Sachs. The debate over Obama/Romney for example was a non-debate as you all well know... but for THAT reason alone. They were both being paid out of the same till.

The ID I use now is the same as skype, my blog and also my yahoo account. I'm not attempting to hide from anyone. I like the guy a lot.. think he's the best congressman we've had in generations. I'm just not a blind cheerleader.

Windows of Opportunity

1) “Is the focus of attention on the Bond issue or the voting issue?”

The same ID RPvsGoldman Sachs wrote about both issues. I do not trust the voting post that was written, so should I trust the Bond post?

2) Also on that OP Bond site ID Clay Carey is commenting and asking people to contact him directly. Danger, Danger, bear…or …Josf? What cannot be shared publicly, who is trying to get me/anyone to contact them privately and why?

3) Also on that OP Bond site ID The South is commenting. That is the same author of a post that I directed you to that you said you were not going to go to because you did not want to confuse the issues and you suggested that I am connecting dots :) I think the dots have connected themselves?

4) I still cannot quite understand how the Bond issue is supposed to help me. I do not plan on getting into trouble and if someone puts me into trouble I don’t think there will be any help available. But I am willing to learn and will spend the cost if you think this is a viable issue, but you will have to beat a dead horse until I can open my mind enough to see what you are seeing. So, or Sew buttons on underwear, if you are willing to spend the cost beating a dead horse or “pissing in the wind,” I think you phrased it one time, then I will be the horse or wind. May I suggest that you stand with your back to the wind.

Where would you like me to start in my learning? i.e. what should I completely read or watch?

5) I feel the voting issue is very important right now as far as education is concerned. You are smarter than a lot of the rest and have words to offer so that people might know better. For example, on the Why won’t Ron Paul endorse someone site…I can see the answer is the one you gave me as well as the one Ron Paul gave on 10/13 (I believe it was) regarding the validity of the vote. People need to hear that loud and clear.

6) The pro Gary Johnson posts need some education as well. Just like what you just wrote me about Ron Paul knowing how to get back to Liberty or a Confederation. It concerns me greatly that those who claim to be proponents of Liberty do not understand that simple principle and are willing to believe that GJ is a Liberty candidate. I think that it is not just the voting issue as you have helped me see. I think this is a great time for educating Friends of Liberty. This window will be closed after the election in November. We, or just me, have only a couple of very short weeks of opportunity to help people to hear the truth. Some people I believe are deceived and just need an opportunity to hear the truth. Others may be purposeful deceivers, and their message needs to be pointed out for what it is. I kind of know, but you, Joe, know and know why.

What say you, “Old Man?” (You are about 5 years older than I. The lady who helps me in SS is about 2 years older than you. I do not consider her old. Our family had lunch today with a couple of 70 year olds…they are not old either. Additionally the Baton Death March widow was with us. She is 90 something…she is getting frail. Have you ever heard of the book Horror Trek? Her husband is in it.) Can we work during this short window of opportunity to help Friends of Liberty know better?

Can 2 things be done at the same time?

A bear, learning to be brave.

Please my friend, look at this http://www.dailypaul.com/259781/un-monitors-at-us-elections from here: http://www.dailypaul.com/259781/un-monitors-at-us-elections and tell me, what can we do?

Quick reply

I am going to make my next reply on this topic in a new topic with the same title (if possible).

The Bond issue is pioneering stuff, so I can't offer much more information that your questions ask, we are in the same boat on this river, so to speak.

I don't know if the 504 errors were loading while the sent edit work was saved or not.

I think we both need to stick to principles of Bond issues more and stop "Friend or Foe" identification work for awhile, in other words, DO NOT SHOOT THE MESSENGER.

Read the message.

Understand the message, and then question the messenger - please.



I'll wait for your new topic. I am not sure what you think I can add to the research. You understand and remember the big picture when looking t things. I tend to revert back to old thought patterns, but I will try to be competitive. As well as insisting on connecting dots, I tend to see the negative side of things, so if I am too much of a downer, say so. You may have to coral me a little to get me headed in the right direction. If I slow the boat down, just let me know and I'll hop out.

I will try not to shoot the messenger, but I am going to tell you I see a lot of chest puffing in that Bond post, it may be a guy thing, and it may be best left to the guys to hash out. You might enjoy talking with the guys for a while and you do not need a bear around; that will not hurt my feelings. The other thing, which I suppose are dots, for all I know there is a single person speaking under the same ID in those 3 ID’s I mentioned in a previous comment. Another thought I am thinking is that this may be some kind of entrapment for certain propensities since all of the sudden I am seeing many of the same type of posts.

Did you and your nephew get a chance to play together? I don't know if I told you, but our oldest is taking piano now. He likes to write lyrics and mentioned that he would like to do that more so we thought piano would be an asset to him. He wrote some lyrics when he was 5 or so and the school music teacher put them to music and the school sings the song when ever she is in charge. She is his piano instructor so I feel he is in good hands and with someone who has an interest in him.

And I want to know. Did you read all of my 2 in 1 post? You don't need to answer it. I just want to know if you read the words.


Hang on a sec

Are you accusing South and I of being the same being?

I am not accusing anyone of anything...

I said "for all I know..." ...and your ID was never mentioned. I've seen you around lately though. Aren't you the guy that started the "match making" post?

Time out agian

I tried to post that above and got the time out many times, then I tried many times at once, and they posted, so now I'm editing out the duplicates.


504 again

I can try later to restart this topic with the same title?


I got a 500 server error

when editing to add a couple of lines to the end of my last comment to you. It surprised me to get the error as I haven't been getting any. However, even with the error my edit was saved in the post. Have you noticed whether your edits have actually been saved when you get the 504 errors?

Liberty Movement Comercial


Check it out?


Something a Little Different

Jeff happens to like blue grass (not exactly my cup of tea) and this was playing when I used his car last week. I liked the musical composition and I immediately thought of passing it on to you as I thought the notes played on the guitar an interesting tone. There is a mandoline played too. It is funny, Jeff always skips the song and I was attracted by it. You may have the same impulse he has...


Have a nice day, Joe.


I have a nephew who visited from Virgina recently and the sounds he can play on the guitar have that tone that is so unique to the south eastern parts of America.

A more commercially successful example of that type of music (as far as my ear can tell) is this:



Honest Money

Am I supposed to watch a commercial or is the commercial the money bomb?

Ran across this today: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?261839-Honest-Mo...

I've heard that the "real" Ron Paul supporters have gone to that site so I decided to take a look. I never have been drawn to the site. I happened to see a link for Sound Money so I decided to check it out and decided I should link it here on the 2012 Liberty Challenge should it be a competitive source of information.

I haven't said Thank you today, so am doing so now. Thanks, Joe for all your help, here and over at the Bond site.

504 again

I have a poorly edited response on the Bond site. I tried to edit it and ran into the 504 error again.

I just tried to cut that edited response here and the same 504 error happened again.

I can save that edited response on a Word file, but I can't post it on this site.


504 thoughts

Josf, I have had a couple of thoughts about the 504 issue.

1) Is it the error something new since you have been using Word to cut and paste?

2) A work around may be by going to your "Me" page and then clicking on the comments tab (where all of the comments you have made show up) and doing the edit from there instead of the OP.

Sometimes I reply to you or look at your comment from your comment tab because I do not want to wait for the 2013 Liberty Challenge to load. It takes forever...I guess because we and a few others have contributed to a very large book...and it is only October. Maybe it is a good thing it took 20 years to happen upon a reciprocal conversation...you may have had more books than could possibly ever be published... LOL :)

3) Also wondering, do you need to clear your temporary files? Not that I am a computer geek, but sometimes people have told me to do that when things get quirky.

Working on it, thanks

"1) Is it the error something new since you have been using Word to cut and paste?"

I do not use Word to compose, I use the Forum to compose, and then edit, and that was working fine, the only possible explanation I can see is external to my system, which is then subject to any number of possibilities including the two most obvious ones, which are a change in the forum software or a change in the path between my system and the forums system, which to me is the most likely, since the Cable Service Provider is providing me with a connectivity that is intermittent. Somewhere between my system and all the systems I connect to, any other I.P. Address, is subject to this intermittent connectivity, so my guess is that the forum software here is detecting that measure of resistance to connectivity by some calculation of some kind.

That is a wild guess, based upon information from various sources not limited to the information offered by people on this forum.

"2) A work around may be by going to your "Me" page and then clicking on the comments tab (where all of the comments you have made show up) and doing the edit from there instead of the OP."

I can try that too.

"3) Also wondering, do you need to clear your temporary files? Not that I am a computer geek, but sometimes people have told me to do that when things get quirky."




Hopefully it will get itself straightened out. I listened to a Gary Johnson speech today http://www.dailypaul.com/259524/who-to-vote-for-judge-andrew.... He sticks up for the EPA. He sees the agency as a controlling force for bad actors. I suppose I am wasting my time, but I thought I should at least give him a listen. I haven't been in the mood to communicate today. I still can't see much use for the bond issue unless it is used to mitigate legal crime immediately. I don't plan on getting in any trouble and by the time they come and pick people up it wont matter.

The Point

"I don't plan on getting in any trouble and by the time they come and pick people up it wont matter."

The point is to make it matter so that "they" (us) are not at each other's throats all nice and legal.

What does self government look like when "they" willfully attack us?

Those who are attacking do not have badges (you seek people with badges in that case)
Those who are attacking have badges (you volunteer to be an authority in that case)
a. You hire a Union (badge) Lawyer
b. You hire a Non-Union Lawyer (gave him or herself a badge)
c. You compete in defining the meaning of authority (you volunteer to deputize yourself)

If you never even consider B, then who is "they" when speaking about government?

What does self government look like, if you care to look?


I knew you would have an

I knew you would have an answer, but how can anyone achieve self-government? And furthermore how does it work to look for someone withouta badge in a Gulag system? Do you see a way for the Bond issue to pre-empt the Gulag? Hopefully next week I will put my thinking cap back on. But the way I see it is that the Bond system needs to be used by someone to pre-empt the legal criminals, if in fact the bond system is worth anything at all. But I suppose you have read the whole document, which once again, I have failed to do, so maybe you see what I cannot.

d. What happens when the UN peacekeepers attack

Reality tends to illuminate in time.

What is happening can be seen in many ways from a very general overall perspective or from a very specific time and place perspective (down to the second of time and within inches of space).

In the "by morning" thread by the OP on the Bond Issue there are two examples of The Gulag Coming to a Theater Near You.

One is a youtube video from a Cop (revenuer, tax collector) perspective as he arrests two people in real time, live, like reality television.

Who is being injured by who in that case?

How will that case be resolved?

In that same "by morning" thread another welcome contributor offers this:

<< I had a friend in the DP went to court yesterday on a BS public drunk charge - the cops came to his house and arrested his wife, then him. So he went to "court" and his name was called... he said - I am the living beneficiary of that estate - the judge said ok - we will take your case in 15 min... They start - she calls the STRAWMAN - he replies I am here for that matter as the living beneficiary of that estate - she again asks if he is MICHAEL P - he replies I am the living beneficiary of that estate and here for that matter if you wish to call me a name you can call me Michael. She asks him if he has the birth certificate bond for the estate? He does and hands it to the bailiff - he stands behind the bar at all times and never enters the ship - and she examines it. She then calls to prosecutor and confers with him - after 2 min she asks him how he intends to proceed... he says - NO PROSECUTORE - and she says very well - she then says STRAWMAN this case is NO PROSECUTORE and you are free to go... and Michael - you are free to go as well... WOW - this is working - you must know who you are - and how to conduct yourself in "court" and this is just the beginning...

If it can be assumed that those words report an actual event and the event is reported accurately, then my question to you is to ask if you understand what happened and to ask if you understand the significance of what happened?

If the answer is no to either question then I can report to you that my viewpoint may be more competitive (still) compared to your viewpoint on that matter, and I am more than willing to share my viewpoint if you are still willing to spend the costs required in such a transfer.

"d. What happens when the UN peacekeepers attack"

If you are living in a major city then you are going to have a much different answer compared to someone living in a more rural area.

Where will they attack first?


Well, it seems to me that we

Well, it seems to me that we call the bill of rights robbing legal criminal's bond and then we proceed as a strawman when the legal criminals retaliate. I have to go to a soccer game and then a picnic today. I would like to iron this out so I can understand that when they come and take my kids for some unknown reason like they do in the UK in the middle of the night I can appear in a non-court as a strawman when all the rules are upside down.

Futhermore, can you tell me what the role of government is? Gary Johnson says the role of the government is to protect the people, thus the EPA protects the environment which protects the people.

Didn't ron paul say the role of the government is to protect the Liberty of the people? I think this is a very necessary thing to bring up here at the DP, but I don't know the answers, I think I just know when I hear something that is not right. I have to run.