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July 4th 2013 Liberty Day Challenge

Two directions are possible from this moment on as proven by historical precedent. Either be subjected to suffering by Legalized Criminals and be forced to pay all debts collected in that evil enterprise or move in the direction of Liberty.

Make my day.

How about July 4th 2013?

If by that date the American people, as one, have invented, produced, and supplied a number of competitive legal monies, then those American people will take back their power to prosper, at will, for their own and for posterity.

Sign on in spirit or sign on in actual reality, either way the days will move in a direction and the Legal Criminals score their progress with or without your willful participation toward their goal of absolute despotism.

May God have mercy on our souls.



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Walls of Text for the Scaling!

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/05/dialectic.htm

I have added it to my library and read just abit. I made a comment one time about two steps forward and one step backward here on the daily paul and someone pointed me to the Hegelian Dialectic. I read on it briefly then, but not this document. I probably read that “reliable” source wiki. You know, the one that can be edited and re edited to no end.

“Hegel's dialectic is the tool which manipulates us into a frenzied circular pattern of thought and action. Every time we fight for or defend against an ideology we are playing a necessary role in Marx and Engels' grand design to advance humanity into a dictatorship of the proletariat. The synthetic Hegelian solution to all these conflicts can't be introduced unless we all take a side that will advance the agenda. The Marxist's global agenda is moving along at breakneck speed. The only way to completely stop the privacy invasions, expanding domestic police powers, land grabs, insane wars against inanimate objects (and transient verbs), covert actions, and outright assaults on individual liberty, is to step outside the dialectic. This releases us from the limitations of controlled and guided thought.”

Do you believe the above statement to be true?

“Consider an example of this Thesis - Antithesis = Synthesis stuff such as the will creation of a powerful group of a few people who call themselves Federalists and they know how to gain power so they create a false version of themselves called Anti-Federalists, and the concept here is to keep the Federalists fighting the Anti-Federalists while they control the outcome which will be Nationalism or Synthesis.”

Do you think where we are today was planned so long ago, or just an outcome of a nationalism? Do you think we still belong to England? The Granger gave me a link that indicated that we fought the war of 1812 even though England had repented with their exploitation on the high seas.

How about another example of the Hegelian Dialect: Republican vs Democrate = Fascism

How about they do not even change names anymore: tea party started by Ron Paul / tea party co-opted by the Republican party becomes the neocon tea party.
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“If you read this and you then do the search yourself, then you are testing the experiment as a social scientist, but you certainly do not need to call yourself a socialist, since you might then be burned at the stake. You are just a Bear looking to see if your invention gains currency (perhaps).”

Perhaps the word socialist became used by the Hegelian Dialect and that is why I would be burned at the stake?

“If a week goes by and the word does not show up on a Google Search I can then post the work as a title of a Forum post on my Forum, which is a well connected forum, and then as has happened in the past, the new word will show up on a Google Search. “

Yes, feel free. It would be interesting to see if that word gains currency and whether an anti-thesis would be created.
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ME: "The Mojave dessert is fine with me. But actually I like rolling hills and trees like we have in Missouri."

And going 85 is not safe on a two lane hilly/curvy road prone to deer, wild turkeys and tractors…

“Missouri sounds even better, for those who prefer colder climates.”

I hibernate in the winter and get a little depressed due to lack of sun, but I really like the 4 seasons. We did not enjoy 4 seasons in Texas. Talk about hot in Texas, after getting home from work in the summer all I could do was go straight into the house! But the hot car did feel good after being indoors all day at work.
How about a Modular Farming Link?
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“Love thy neighbor, sure, but love thy future existence too, don't sell they future short for a present feeling of goodness in helping out a friend in need. “

Love thy neighbor as thyself is the command. Not your neighbor more than yourself, but as yourself.
1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
What if Love is entered as the power into Joe’s Law?
Power produced into oversupply reduces the price of power while purchasing power increases because power reduces the cost of production.
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“They store their very, very, very, very, very larger supplies of surplus POWER to PURCHASE in vaults. The FED pays them to not spend it. The FED pays good, a competitive return on investment, to invest their POWER in not allowing anyone else to employ that POWER to PURCHASE. “

Really? Like paying farmers not to grow a crop?

“1.
Lend POWER to FOOD farmers because the lender prefers to make a killing on the scarcity of "credit" where farmers will pay almost any price to gain the credit needed to keep farming.”

It scares me to think of the day when farmers cannot get their loans to plant. I wonder if they realize they are at the mercy of the beast?
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“How much does that father, in that parable, pay the "servants"?”

Why do you ask that question? Why do you say the following?

“If the servants work their butts off for less than a living wage because employment opportunities are made scarce because a few very POWERFUL fathers own everything and keep all the POWER they collect over the years in vaults and the system of monetary exchange is geared toward moving excess power from those who create it to those who invent, produce, and maintain the system, with a working Business Cycle, then those "servants" may be doing just about anything asked for the bare minimum required for survival, while the Fathers can spend fortunes on sons who may or may not use that POWER to make more POWER overall, but so long as the Father eventually has someone to pass on the whole Business Cycle, all is right according to that Father.
No son, you are not a lowly servant, you are one of us, and we keep those servants in line, because we control The Business Cycle, you and me, so it is OK if you "sow your wild oats", there is plenty of money to burn, for us, but for the "servants" we charge interest, which is very interesting, if you care to know, now that you have "sowed your wild oats"?

Do you pre-suppose that father evil because he was a man of wealth or bad because he had employees? The son says that the hired servants have bread enough to spare. They were well paid in that they had more supply than needed!
17And when he came to himself, he said , How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare , and I perish with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, 19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

The way the father treated his servants in contrast with the way the son was treated as a servant while away:

15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat : and no man gave unto him.

Did the son have enough to eat as a servant? No that cruel employer was starving his employee. The son, however, knew how his father’s servants were treated. They had more bread than they needed. (And by the way, just who do you think was going to eat 700 pounds of meat supplied by the fatted calf? It was going to be a big party which would include all the employees wouldn’t you think?!!!) Yes of course it would. 700 pounds is a lot to eat!
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“Is the human father supposed to be demonstrating how forgiveness works or is there a different forgiveness involved when God or Jesus forgives someone?”

Yes. Just like here:

Luke `15: 1Then drew near * unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured , saying , This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

See who Jesus ate with! Not the religious police but sinners http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/hamartolos...
and publicans [tax collectors]. http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/telones.html

Anyways, back to the father’s forgiveness. Here is a picture in heaven when someone repents.

3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying , 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost , until he find it? 5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing .6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost .7I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth , more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Why do you think Jesus ate with tax collectors and men of vice? Because he came to seek and save that which is lost. There is also a Bible passage that says Jesus did not come for the well, but the sick (Luke 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.)
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““That does not work well for me. Too much information is missing. If the son who spent all that power on entertainment returned and then did the same thing twice, three time, four times, after the father held a party for the son returning after spending all the power on entertainment the first time, then the second son should go find another place to live, since the father is obviously as bad as the brother.
On the other hand if the son who had his fun, returning to a welcome home party, did straighten up and the family could then return to using the power available to make more power available, storing enough extra power to last through the next famine, and still have enough extra power to throw parties, then the second son may "forgive" the father and the brother and choose to stay at home?”
On the forgiveness part. The son came with in repentance. 21And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son

Notice that the son admits sinning against his father AND against heaven. That is the whole point. Sure we sin, we might sin against ourselves, we might sin against our neighbor, we might sin against those we love, but the truth of the matter is when we do those things we are actually sinning against God. That is the first thing that must be realized. Sin hurts people, yes, but sin is against God and separate us from God. Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear .

Jesus came so that we might have a relationship with God because when we are forgiven by God this is what happens to our sin: Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
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Joe, look here, look what the boy’s older brother did when the father killed the fatted calf:
Luke 15;25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant .27 And he said unto him *, Thy brother is come ; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound .28 And he was angry , and would not go in : therefore came his father out , and intreated him. 29 And he answering said to his father, Lo , these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: 30 But as soon as this thy son was come , which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf. 31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.32 It was meet that we should make merry , and be glad : for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again ; and was lost , and is found .

That brother begrudged his little brother for coming home and getting a party. That older brother wasn’t happy for his father who loved his son and missed him and was glad to see he was still alive. Also, please note that the older brother says all these years have I serve thee. You see these weren’t spoiled brat rich kids. They were co-laborers with their father. My brother-in-law has a lot of cattle and family land. He works till 2 am bringing in the crops in the summer. Sure they have some farm employees, but that doesn’t mean my brother-in-law kicks back. My sister hardly sees him during planting and harvesting.

Also on the note of forgiveness:

Jesus was asked this question by Peter: Matthew 18:21Then came Peter to him, and said , Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Forgiveness is a very serious business. There is a parable after those verses you can read if you like, but I have already given you so much to read I am not going to copy and paste it here. Just the link: http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/matthew/passage.aspx?q=ma...

“…then "forgiveness" can be a very bad investment if the son takes that "forgiveness" as "permission" to repeat the measurable offense of consuming POWER that was not his to consume.”

That would be called licentiousness/lasciviousness,. Or license to do as one pleases because one is going to be forgiven anyways. Jesus speaks against that:
Mark 7:18 And he [Jesus] saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive , that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; 19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? 20 And he said * , That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Also found in Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound ? 2 God..
When one repents, it is not to just say that one is sorry, it is a change of mind. The Greek word for repent is metanoeo: http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/metanoeo.html which means change of mind. A change of mind changes the person whereas a change of action may not be a change of mind. Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth , more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
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Also, in the context of Luke 15, the story of the Prodigal son is found with 2 other parables of things being lost and then found. One of the things was a silver coin and the other was a sheep. The 3rd was that son.
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“Perhaps I don't have the whole "inheritance" thing understood either.”

Luke 15:12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me.

The inheritance refers to the part of the estate that would have been passed on to the son upon the death of the father.
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“I don't share the concept of ownership with almost everyone else, since I think in terms of POWER, not "ownership", since the fact that someone claims to "own" something, even his person, or her person, is subject to dispute by someone who may "own" that person despite the claims made otherwise.”

I am not sure I understand ownership vs power, but as a Believer I am not my own: 1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

“I think that my capacity to understand this particular verse in scripture is very poor, and it may be due to my frame of reference, which is based, principally, on the accurate measure of POWER, not limited to physical power, since there is much in the way of POWER psychologically, or in the mind, and then there is that POWER which can be called Spiritual Power, which in my view is everything, or all things seen, and all things not seen, so that Spiritual POWER, to me, includes physical power (economic power) and psychological power (political power), and everything not included in physical or psychological power, every thing, without exception. “

What I hear you saying is that God is everything? I may not be understanding correctly, but what I am hearing is Pantheism. My understanding from the Bible is Monotheism. God has specific attributes. One of them is: TRANSCENDENT
http://preceptaustin.org/notes_on_attributes_of_god_(2b).htm#TRANSCENDENT

This means that God is above creations and exists totally apart from His creation. However, creation is dependent upon God. God is not creation; creation cannot exist without God.

“This is where I see much of what you have offered, in your interpretations of scripture, confirming what I think, such as The Devil being within the POWER of God. God is every thing. The Devil is a thing, therefore within God. I see things that way, and if my understanding of your interpretations of scripture are accurate, then you see thing similarly in that specific angle of view.”

Here I may not be understanding what you are saying, but I would not say the Devil is within God. The Devil is under God’s dominion. I would put the Devil under the Sovereignty of God. SOVEREIGN
http://preceptaustin.org/notes_on_attributes_of_god_(2b).htm#SOVEREIGN

God is in total control & is totally supreme. God does whatever He pleases. Creation is His
“As to forgiveness, I don't know, but I can say that forgiveness, if it exists, can certainly be a thing, and if it is a thing then it is another part of God, since God is all things. God is all things seen, and all things not seen.
I am not seeing the forgiveness thing.
Forgive me for my error?
Forgive me, I promise not to make that error again, but I am only human, so I may make that error again.
If I make that error again, and I as for forgiveness again, then again, then again again, then someone is probably missing the point.
It is customary to ask for forgiveness?”

It is necessary to forgive and be forgiven. There are 3 short pages of short verses here: http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=forgive&c=nt&t=kjv&...

You will see that if one does not forgive, God will not forgive them. You made me look up the word forgive. I was somewhat surprised: http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/aphiemi.html
I think it carries the meaning as casting as far as the east is from the west. Or casting into the depths of the seas. That is all. Instead of holding on to something that someone has done, i.e. a grudge or exacting revenge, one simply lets it go, casts it away. When we are forgiven by God, he simple no longer holds us accountable. But asking forgiveness is not glib, i.e. just mere words, it is from the heart. But yes, there are times when I ask God to forgive me knowing good and well it will not be the last time I do something, but the point is the same, I am crying out to God for mercy and help to overcome along with forgiveness.

“If I recognize, after learning a lesson, that my behavior is not good, where I've passed on costs for example, then I can seek credit from people, by asking for their forgiveness, not for the bad things I've done, but for the credit of having learned a lesson, and learned not to repeat the same mistake over, and over, and over, and over, and over again?” 1 John 1:9 “9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

But Joe, the cry of my heart is often: Mark 9:24 “And straightway the father of the child cried out , and said with tears, Lord, I believe ; help thou mine unbelief.” Lord, I am but flesh and blood, help me. I am but a grasshopper, I need you. You know I believe Lord, but there is unbelief present as well.

Yes, think of “passing on costs” as “trespassing” into someone else’s sovereignty. You as forgiveness for the trespass. I am sorry. I realize I have done wrong. Will you please let it go (forgive me). Remember our discussion about David and his sin. Here is a song he wrote afterward: http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/psalms/51.html (Yes, David was a real person.)

Forgiveness stems from mercy. God is merciful; He exhibits active compassion against those who offend him. MERCIFUL:Lovingkindness / Compassion
http://preceptaustin.org/notes_for_attributes_of_god_(1b).htm#MERCY OF GOD

“Had I listened, in person, to the works spoken by Jeff, in this specific case, I may have understood sooner?”

Yes, I wish you could have. We are working on getting current topics uploaded to Youtube. I have offered to help him and am waiting for him to show me what I need to know. Right now, here is the link http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fbc+lowry+city&o... ,
or http://www.youtube.com/user/fbclowrycity
but it will not contain the sermon on the Prodigal Son. You might enjoy the Ed Black series. He grew up in a gang area. He is the director of the Star of Hope Mission in Houston Texas. We don’t have a premium subscription so everything is in 10 minute segments…

“That one may be even tougher than forgiveness. I still don't want anyone dying for my sins, that is ridiculous to me.”

Because God is wrathful (has hatred for all unrighteiousness), it was necessary for Christ to die for sins for anyone who will accept the merciful give bestowed upon man by a loving Father.
WRATHFUL: http://preceptaustin.org/notes_on_attributes_of_god_(2b).htm#WRATH OF GOD

"And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost."
I gave you that quote to show that Jesus gave up the ghost, or his life spirit, it was not taken from him. Some Christian (maybe in name only) groups (those that lead those groups) teach that the Jews are responsible for Christ’s death and therefore they hate the Jews for killing Jesus. No man killed Jesus. Jesus gave his life. He could have stopped the process at any moment, but his death was necessary to appease man’s punishment for sin. Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past , through the forbearance of God;
He died for someone's sins? I was not yet born, not mine. You repeat the line about everyone is a sinner, and I know better, here are babies born into this world and some are murdered, like in Waco Texas, and they did not sin, not in their entire life, they did not sin.

I know those babies did not sin. If God is God would not God do what is right concerning those babies? I trust God to do that. Another thing about God is that he is Just: He is fair in all His actions. Why would God not be so? God is JUST:
http://preceptaustin.org/notes_for_attributes_of_god_(1b).htm#JUST

I have no authority. God is the only authority to declare what is right and what is not right. I cannot judge. I can only look at my own life to make sure that I am walking in step with God. Anything done outside of love or faith is sin, put simply.

“Now I think the message intended is that God forgives and his way of forgiving is to crucify his own human form, and this is to me like a bad horror movie. I want no part of it. If that is God then he can forgive other people that way, not me, I'll be damned if that is the case.”

Crucifixion or eternity in hell is what sin deserves. God was merciful in that he took our punishment upon himself. It would be like you standing infront of your family ready to give your life if an intruder came to your home. Yes, you might be armed, but I don’t think you are going to be hiding under the bed while your wife answers the door. That is what God did. He answered the doorbell of sin and took care of it. He didn’t hid while we all go on our merry way to hell. Christ’s death did not end with the crucifixion. He rose again and conquered death and hell. That is the victory. Death no longer has power because Christ conquered it.
“God is the POWER, to me, that invents, produces, and maintains things, the CREATOR POWER, the driving force, the reason for every thing that exist, and without that POWER there is nothing.”

Yes, I think I agree with that statement. That is what I was saying above, and got to your statement here.

I know there are injustices like Waco in this world. This world has been contaminated by sin. Satan is the prince and power of the air and works in the people of this world that belong to him: Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

“It is all beyond me, but that does not stop me from thinking about it, and your help is appreciated, even when the fruits of your labor produce nothing but disagreement. “

It is beyond me too. If I were God I would do things a lot different. But I am not God. And I suppose if I were God, really God as God is, I would do just what he has done. Isaiah 55:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” Really, we cannot fathom God. Can we even begin to create out of nothingness? Can we know all things at all times all at once and be everywhere all at the same time and do everything perfectly all at the same time? No, we are not God. Who would want a God otherwise who is not truly God.

“Jesus can have his flock, those who inspired God to torture and murder the man for their sins, whatever, it makes no sense to me.
It sounds too much like passing on costs to me. “

Josf, whether you accept Christ’s death or not. It was done for you. The travesty is that such a gift has been given and it is rejected. That is what is going to get you into the most trouble with God. He provided a way and you said, No, God. I will not have it. John 3: 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved .18 He that believeth on him is not condemned : but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved .21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest , that they are wrought in God
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Is there a song taken from scripture along those lines?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHvf20Y6eoM
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/ecclesiastes/3.html

I did not edit my friend. Please let me know if there is miscommunication or misunderstanding. I have tried to answer to the best of my ability. Please do not let God being God stand between you and God.

...

Polictics or Economics?

Both?

"Do you believe the above statement to be true?"

Yes. The giant wall of text that you found, quoted, and published, is true. The Thesis - Anti-Thesis = Synthesis is a political strategy involving the employment of falsehood, threats of violence, and violence upon the targeted victims in which the victims are closed into a thought loop from which there is no escape.

Someone a long time ago saw something similar to a broken record on a turn table where the song would play out from beginning to end but the record was broke and the same section in the middle of the song played over, and over, and over again, cycling, like a Business Cycle, as predictable as the Earth rotating around an axis, and that person had an idea to take that concept and apply it to mankind.

The song is called Liberty and the criminals scratch the record so that the record is broken and it skips along the same grove over and over and over again, and if anyone reaches for a kick on the record player they are tortured, their whole families are tortured, and their torn apart corpses are hung in the village square as a warning to anyone who may also try bumping the needle out of the well worn groove.

What that Hegelian Dialectic quote does not say is that it repeats.

(Thesis - Antithesis = Synthesis) - (Thesis - Antithesis = Synthesis) = (Thesis - Antithesis = Synthesis

or

(Thesis - Antithesis = Synthesis)2

or

Thesis - Antithesis = Synthesis - Anti-thesis = Thesis - Anti-thesis...

There is a symbol for infinity, a sideways 8 or so, in music there is a repeat sign.

You may say, wait a minute, that whole thing consumes itself in time, and there is where you have to step back to see the bigger picture.

In 1984, a BOOK, written by an "insider", it was shown how 3 powers work to keep the needle in the same groove. While Oceania is Peaking on the BOOM cycle, as Thesis, then Eurasia is almost at the bottom on the way down the BUST cycle and that is Anti-Thesis, and on the way up is Eastasia which is Synthesis.

Here is where it can be understood that there already is a New World Order, but it isn't new, it is the same closed loop operating in the minds of enough people to make it real.

Those people attacking me, may not know any better, but they are agents of this Hegelian Dialectic, they are volunteering to keep the record player "FREE" from those of us trying to kick it.

"Do you believe the above statement to be true?"

Yes, but as explained above, it is a part of the wider view, it is an integral section of the puzzle, no longer just blue pieces of a all blue sky, you are finding actual images appearing into view as the puzzle takes on a recognizable shape.

If you get to my level you can see that it is actually all part of a power struggle between those who resort to deceit, threats of violence, and acts of violence upon the targeted innocent, and those defending against that or very simply put:

Legal Crime versus Defense of Liberty

or even more simply

Crime versus Non-Crime

There are as many inventions, options, and neat things to do as there are grains of sand, but a Thesis is created and then everyone is made to join it, so as to then have an Anti-Thesis whereby roughly half of the people are made to join that half, and then a battle ensues, with no bid contracts, war profiteers, and somehow, out from all that destruction, some people appear with a lot of cash to buy things up at the lowest prices?

Really?

That just happens that way, accidentally?

A force of Nature?

How about following the money to the source of the ONE Fraud money and once in that house look to see who bought what, when, and it may then be OK to trust that those people don't tell the truth, so don't trust their words that claim such things as saving the children, and spreading democracy, and liberating the Iranians from their Dictators, or fighting them over there so as not to have to fight them over here, and we are broke, sure we are broke, while they fly off to another elaborate and very expensive vacation on their private jet to a place that they own.

Yea, we are broke.

The same tune over and over and over again.

"How about another example of the Hegelian Dialect: Republican vs Democrate = Fascism"

The infection isn't infecting the people at the top, they know better, they say "we are broke", and they know better. They are not broke.

They can call it any name that works. They can call it Fried Chicken and if the dupes are stupid enough then we are all going to work harder, pay more, and buy into Fried Chicken, who cares what name is used, so long as the POWER keeps flowing the same way, and that is the same way reported to The People in Common Sense in 1776, as "we provide the means by which we suffer".

Look, see, it isn't that tough. If we stopped providing then we would stop suffering so much.

What does that tell you?

Use your own brain to listen to the answer.

I will give you the answer.

If we stop providing the means by which we suffer then those provisions are now piling up in our Bank Accounts, we suffer a lot, who pays for our suffering? We do.

We stop.

We no longer suffer by the amount at which we paid.

No more of us paying to make us suffer, what does that mean?

It means we have power to burn on something other than our own suffering.

That is what Legal Criminals cannot allow.

We could waste our power and be much better off, rather than "providing the means by which we suffer", but we won't waste our power, we would realize the need to use the power we have to make us more powerful, for defense, for increasing our ability to use the power we have to make us more powerful.

This goes back to my earlier question about which targets they pick first.

The criminals do not start with the hardest targets first, they start with the easiest targets first, and they take power from the easy targets, and then they are more powerful. Then they move onto the harder targets, because they can afford to move onto the harder targets.

Where do the criminals get their power?

Is this making sense yet?

The whole concept of Legal Crime is a fraud, and I can illustrate it with a story.

When I went to school, the all black school, for example, I wasn't the last one picked on the basketball team when the team captains where picking sides. I was the one not picked. Then the teacher steps in and forces one team to use me. I get used. How?

Somehow I get the ball, I can't remember, an accident. I have the ball. Someone on the opposition team looks at me in the eye and orders me to pass him the ball, pretending to be someone on my team, and I fall for it, and no one on my team steps in and says, no, no, no, Joe, that guys is on the opposing team, don't pass the ball to him, there isn't any time for that, and everyone knows a dupe when they see one, so no one want's a dupe on their team. I pass the ball to the opposition, because they say so in a very convincing manner.

Don't get me wrong here, I was treated worse at the all white school, but we moved from the all Black neighborhood for reasons I don't know. My parents were divorced by then. I got my shot out of the dark in junior high, a crippling blow that left me out of breath in the crowded hallway, just like everyone else, that was "initiation" in junior high. Had we stayed I would have went to Catholic School, if it could have been afforded, since "initiation" in High School was being stabbed, not punched.

I remember a boy, not as dark, a lighter color, and red hair, he was sort of a friend, as far as that goes, he would tell me things to do to stay out of trouble, and I remember well, this 10 year old, or so, I can't remember exactly, but he showed me his knife scars on his belly, just lifting up his shirt, a crowded play area, black top, if I remember well.

Someone had the bright idea to join up as a crossing guard. I wore a badge.

Vague memories. I remember the eyes and the command to pass the ball to the opposing player. I remember that lesson very well.

That is Legal Crime, that is the essence of it, the rules at play. Pass me the POWER.

That is the Big Picture.

The Hegelian Dialectic is a tactic or strategy and it fits into large and small scale applications, it is modular, it is a counterfeit version of adaptation, and Liberty.

Today we are poor as we have little power (thesis) + the power we have today is used to make more power for us (anti-thesis) = tomorrow we are less poor (synthesis)

It is not the tool that is responsible for how the tool is used.

"How about they do not even change names anymore: tea party started by Ron Paul / tea party co-opted by the Republican party becomes the neocon tea party."

Yes, and if you are going to think inside the closed loop then you are told to think that it is human nature at fault; you are supposed to accept that fate, whereby anything good will always be counterfeited and then bad will be the inevitable result, and so pay your taxes and the least evil among us will continue to make all the same mistakes that continue to appear to be going the wrong direction.

Please know that that script only works for the Generation that is on the down cycle. When the generation is on the up cycle (think China now, or think U.S.A. after World War II), then people are eagerly giving up power to make more power as their supply of power (Fraud Money) is inflating rapidly.

We are the good guys now, see how rich we are, and getting richer?

Know also that minor booms and busts occur within the major trend of boom or bust Nation Wide. We are on the down side, while China is on the up side, and Eurasia is at the bottom turning around the bottom and ready to start going up again. We will be at the bottom when World War III is over and we are the losers, and China will be ordering us to pay for all the war debt, and they will be the new owners of The World Reserve Currency Power, which is the False Front covering up the actual New World Order.

The New World Order has been in existence since at least the days of the Roman Empire. The actual fact of which current most powerful Legal Criminal is the most powerful one is a well kept secret in all those centuries whereby this Business Cycle has been wearing the groove in the broken record.

There are exceptions, and those are very instructive studies, again, Holland, Switzerland, and that period of time between 1776 and 1788 here in America after it was part of the New World Order under the English Banking Monopoly Power (Fraud) and before the New World Order began operating out of Wall Street, as The Dollar Hegemony.

The Civil War was a case of making sure that The Dollar Hegemony stays on schedule as The New World Order, a.k.a, World Reserve Currency Fraud Power. The Civil War was actually set-up in The Constitution, it had to happen that way, because that is the way it was set-up. The North Legal Criminals (lower level) made a deal with the South Legal Criminals (lower level) to enslave, or Consolidate, the whole Nation into one State, but it had two heads.

One head was the Banking Monopoly power in the North, at it would win, it would make The First Bank of The United State, fail at that, then it would make The Second Bank of The United States. It was morphing into the mold.

The head that had to be chopped off was the agricultural monopoly power in the south and it would not remain in power because it was based upon expensive labor, or labor that required a whip to inspire production, and it was going to loose, the Southern half of The Dirty Compromise was a Dead Man Walking at the signing of The Constitution. It was already written into the cards that the South would lose, the whole Civil War (all war) is in the cards to keep the slaves busy, to keep them from gaining too much power, and when I say slaves I mean anyone who was forced to pay anything to anyone else involuntarily, pay or else, to provide the means by which we suffer.

"Perhaps the word socialist became used by the Hegelian Dialect and that is why I would be burned at the stake?"

There are very dangerous paths inside the broken record since so many people are more than happy to defend their lies, just look how much money flows to known liars like Clinton, Bush 1 and 2, and now Obama, and even the new puppet for hire Mittens Romney.

Someone is investing heavily in liars. It is also known as selling short. They are betting heavy on America going further down into living hell, and if it does, they hit the jackpot. That is the name of the game.

"Yes, feel free. It would be interesting to see if that word gains currency and whether an anti-thesis would be created."

BREAK

Politics is the battle lost in each victims head, it is of the idea POWER, it is psychological, and a slave is one because a slave cannot see any other life, there isn't even an effort left to look for a way out, a walking example of Check Mate, an empty vessel, a drone, a robot, a machine for extracting all value out of anything of value and then that value is moved up to the slave masters while the worker units pay all the costs.

Economics is the physical battle involving the actual movement of things along the paths that things travel like gold traveling from the many mines to the many mints to the few vaults.

Absolute despotism would be one bank of POWER, all the oxygen, all the sunlight, all the food, all the electricity, every physical power accumulated into one vault with one person demanding interest payments for every loan that withdrawn from the one POWER bank.

You want a child, you can get just enough power to make 2 children, give the despot 1 child.

Legal Crime can't perpetuate if there is only ONE known criminal as it would then be a POWER struggle between every single victim against the ONE known criminal. The Legal Criminals figured it out, and they perpetuate their Hegelian Dialectic (Business Cycle) by creating Men of Straw, or Legal Fictions, inspired The People (victims) to join one, but not just one, there is at least three, like a farmer keeping one plot fertilizing while the other plots are engaged in the work of producing the product desired.

The product desired is not money, either, it is POWER, absolute POWER, and in order for them to have more than their victims they must make damn sure that their victims remain less powerful.

Why does some criminal type, some despotic, revolting, rat like, PERSON, using the term loosely, why, why, why, do they feel the need to beat their wives, children, dogs, cats, torture, ridicule, insults, abuse, abuse, abuse?

To make their victims appear to be worse then they are, and that makes them appear much better in their own counterfeit humble estimate?

"Yes, feel free. It would be interesting to see if that word gains currency and whether an anti-thesis would be created."

I searched with Google for equitablist again, found nothing (08/18/2012), and then I published the word on my Main Page (which was once the Forum), and then I published a new Topic on my Forum titled Equitablist, and so there is a very good possibility that the word will show up on a Google search soon. This is a retest of my Forum's connectability. It may not become popular, in fashion, and become used by anyone other than us two, as far as we know, but then again you may become the inventor of a new word, and it will be well documented in this way. That is not to say that other people are not already using the word, in other languages, but there is a need to actually offer a definition of the word.

All I did was place the word on two Web Pages (two more web pages since the new word is already on these pages).

I have worked on the idea, not yet producing any actions on this path, of writing a script and then asking my very busy daughter to act out a theatrical youtube video to be uploaded and then testing for connectability. See how that works? If the title of the YouTube video, and the title of the theatrical product was Equitablist then gaining currency would be accelerated.

In economics this is pushing, and if the production was designed to entice or to work as a carrot on the end of the stick then the economic word, if I understand these words, would be pulling.

"And going 85 is not safe on a two lane hilly/curvy road prone to deer, wild turkeys and tractors…"

If you say so. If I am not busy making driving fun I may fall asleep, and all that can be calculated accurately, so as to remove inaccuracies when figuring out insurance liabilities (costs or prices).

How about 85 on straight downhill sections through open fields so as to build up momentum for the next uphill?

Nein, dass ist verboten!

But it is OK so long as you don't get caught?

A victim hit by a person driving recklessly having the power afforded to him, or his or her surviving loved ones, to seek for redress of grievances and receive equitable redress of grievances, just like any other person, tends to hold reckless people to account for being reckless rather than punishing everyone except the reckless people, which is bad, but not as bad as rewarding lying, cheating, frauds, who make torture, serial killing, and mass murder with the highest pay rates ever known to mankind.

1.
Holding responsible people accountable
2.
Punishing everyone except those responsible
3.
Rewarding those responsible the most for doing the worst

It could be worse, just keep providing the means by which we suffer and find out.

"How about a Modular Farming Link?"

I lost track of a specific company that was going strong and then suddenly ran out of credit, like Elon Musk and Tesla Motors, suddenly having the rug pulled out from under a solid business plan reaching to "take over the world" with higher quality and lower cost.

I can link the stuff I can still find today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItMRlJ85x9Y

Valcent, if I remember right, bought out Vertigrow, and then things appeared to grind to a halt.

This is not a new thing either. I may have told you about how Germany powered up their Military with Synthetic Fuel made from Coal. That is a long story, but it is similar to this new method of producing motor fuel with Modular Vertical Farming Units.

Why can't you grow tomatoes, carrots, corn, etc.?

What is the cost per calorie?

Why convert the cost in Fraud Money?

Why not convert the cost in calories, which can be converted into kilowatt/hours?

http://www.onlineconversion.com/power.htm

Mass is mass.

Time is time.

Intervals between time and space is velocity.

This much mass moves this far in this much time.

How much is that?

Your body is in bed. You have to get to the kitchen to get a bite to eat. The kitchen is 30 feet away. It takes 5 minutes to cover the distance, not counting elevation changes which may add or subtract to the cost of doing business.

Too much math?

How much did you weigh at the start of the effort?

How much do you weight before taking a bite?

How many calories did it cost?

How much POWER did you spend?

This really hit home, to me, got me focusing on my POWER law, reinforcing it, when I read from Alexander I. Solzhenitsyn, how they knew how much to feed the victims to stretch out their death to an agonizingly slow decent into living hell, just less than the minimum cost to survive, and then make them work.

I think it was something like 1200 calories per day.

A quick search on the net found this:

http://www.exulanten.com/bingthree.html

"The gulag's daily food ration was padded with 400 to 800 grams of bread, more than half of the prisoner's daily 1200-1300 calories. The most productive workers received a modest food bonus ironically, the Morgenthau Plan for occupied Germany suggested the same allotment of 1300 calories a day per German, while the suggested minimum requirements for heavy labor are from 3100-4000 calories per day). In the gulags, the prisoner's food ration was linked to his production. Realizing that the most productive work done by prisoners is in the first three months of captivity, after which they were too debilitated to perform well, the exhausted prisoners were simply killed off and replaced with fresh blood, ensuring a constant flow of new labor."

These people who attack me, what can I say to them? Go ahead, throw me under the bus, fine, and pay, and pay, as if you are so eager to find out what happens on the end of this path. This isn't mysterious. This is very well documented. This path is well worn.

Pay with vigor!

You will get what you pay for, but not soon enough? You feel the need to throw me under the bus right away?

Post-haste?

Look, there goes one of those, ahhhhh, what are we calling them today? Equitablist?

No Franky, they are still conspiracy theorists, then terrorist, then human dross, then waste material, then perhaps Equitablist, no fair reading ahead.

"What if Love is entered as the power into Joe’s Law?"

Is it a productive power? Is it a power that reproduced itself whereby the power starts out small but grows exponentially more abundant as that power is used to make more of that power?

In my opinion that is the most powerful force even above the power of truth because why would anyone ever seek the truth if there were no good reason to do so?

If there were no good reason to seek the truth would there only be luck involved in choosing right from wrong, sharing truth from spreading falsehood, healing from injury?

Like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhXJcfczNIc

"Really? Like paying farmers not to grow a crop?"

It is very sick, goings on down this road, and yes, sure, that is exactly what is happening right now. Gary North, one of the Austrian Economists keeps a close eye on the official accounts published by The FED and he offers much in the way of precise and accurate analysis of what they are doing and why they are doing what they are doing.

I once won an M1 Rifle through a program put out by the DCM, which is a Federal Agency, got that?

This is a bit of a story, but there is a point to it.

I get this gun, it is Army Issue circa World War II, for cheap, about half market cost, from the Federal Government because I prove to them (Department of Civilian Marksmanship or something like that) that I can shoot really good. I uses my 44 Mag, my Semi-Auto Tommy Gun, and my 45/70 Buffalo gun replica in the competition. I like making big holes in the target so as to take out more paper closer to the bulls eye.

I win the gun, and I give it to my old Boss who had casually said that he would like one of the guns he had when he was in Korea. I said, I get that for you. So I won the gun and handed it over to Gene. Gene told me a story about his time on the farm in The Great Depression. Guys with badges showed up and said to Gene's Dad, shoot those cattle, and bury them.

Got that?

The Great Depression.

Farmer.

Cattle.

Shoot the Cattle and bury them, or what?

No or what, they shot the cattle and buried them according to Gene, an eye witness.

I have a book by Rothbard covering the Great Depression. It was all a set-up, recording in black and white, no ifs, not buts, a fraud that went from doubling the money supply to cause the Roaring Twenties and then taking half the money out of circulation to cause The Great Depression and then when everyone is willing to do anything to survive they start World War II.

BOOOM BABY BOOOOOOM!

I'm a baby boomer.

BOOOOOOOM!

Party is now over.

It is China's turn.

Eastasia

We now get the jack boot.

Pay, man, pay, faster, pay more, more, more. What are you waiting for?

Pay.

Look, over there, that one is not paying enough.

Where is that bus?

Where is my rope?

"It scares me to think of the day when farmers cannot get their loans to plant. I wonder if they realize they are at the mercy of the beast?"

There is a tipping point at which roughly half become the willing members of the beast, and they know exactly what they are doing, look into Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports. The beast isn't one guy, or one group of people sitting around a table, that is all part of the Man of Straw that can be easily taken apart.

Not until everyone gets up, looks in the mirror, and finds the BEAST staring back with there be enough defensive power to do as Henry Ford warns.

Henry Ford was warning his fellow cohorts by that time in his life, I suppose, since he was all about capitalism at its finest during his rise to power, then what happened?

Ford was tied in with the push to finance the Nazi's, same as Bush senior, GEEEEEEE DUBBBYAAAA's grandpa I suppose.

It was a warning to his buddies:

http://www.albertarose.org/articles/quotes/henry_ford_quotes...

Check out some of those quotes, the guy was a business genius.

"Nobody can think straight who does not work. Idleness warps the mind." - Henry Ford

You think the Welfare people are getting something for nothing?

Do you know what is now being done to the remaining Native American population?

Some of the "Indians" around here get enough cash each month to buy every repo property that the Banks trickle on into the market, one a month, more or less, and one "Indian" can buy this town, for free.

Is that free?

The person in question, the "Indian", getting an unimaginable sum of money every month, spends it before the first week is over. You can guess where the power flows, like dumping 300 tons of 100 dollar bills inside a (counterfeit) war zone.

"Do you pre-suppose that father evil because he was a man of wealth or bad because he had employees?"

Presupposition in the form of a question? A question is a question. If I ask a question then my intention is to find the accurate answer generally, and in this case the question intends to suppose that the question could be answered accurately, so as to know the full story, rather than half the story.

If the full story included wealth earned through legalized crime, then having that part of the story missing in the story is a curious case of omission. If the full story does not include wealth earned though legalized crime then that situation could be added to the short list of examples of how wealth is earned without resort to legalizing the resort to deceit upon the innocent "servants", and without resort to threats of violence upon the innocent, and without resort to aggressive violence violently whipped into the targeted innocent victims.

A.
Curious omission of vital data.

B.
Curious omission of vital data.

How did those servants become servants - exactly - or what does that word mean - exactly - this "servant" stuff?

To me there is no difference between the Employer and the Employee. When I sold my labor I was employing those people who sold their work loads to me. They had excess work to sell. I bought that work, so they were sales people, essentially, and I made a deal with them, an equitable deal.

We, our combination of their power to invent more work to do, and me having my power to do that work, were combined to be hired, or to hire people wanting rocks and sand for construction.

Why does one have to be Master and one has to be Slave?

What ever happened to equity?

Why does it have to be iniquitous?

The right answer is that it does not have to be iniquitous.

Some people invent iniquity, and they force that invention upon all the victims, by fraud, by force, by hook, or by crook.

Joe

Out of Control

There is alot of ground covered in this comment! Lots of different subjects. I am just telling you, this made me so sad. I am not saying that so you will lay off. I am just sharing how it impacted me. These are things I need to know. What is that song...Jesus in Disguise...Open my eyes as wide as I can as blind as I am... I also felt completely like an insignificant idiot playing little games as I type my little comments on the DP while there is a raging problem that is continuing to mount and it seems with no reprieve. A complete sinking feeling of not being able to do anything to fix anything. It is all so out of control. Why do you even spend any time trying to pound things into my head?

I remember you saying something about a silver spoon. I have a friend who grew up with an alcoholic mother and a mean father. She called me spoiled one day. It really hurt my feelings. I had someone yesterday say to me that they bet my childhood was a great one. I explained a little, then she said...well I left at 17 and got married to get out of my house it was so bad. I really know nothing about how bad bad can be.

“Don't get me wrong here, I was treated worse at the all white school, but we moved from the all Black neighborhood for reasons I don't know. My parents were divorced by then. I got my shot out of the dark in junior high, a crippling blow that left me out of breath in the crowded hallway, just like everyone else, that was "initiation" in junior high. Had we stayed I would have went to Catholic School, if it could have been afforded, since "initiation" in High School was being stabbed, not punched. “

I cannot understand this. The worse thing that happened to me was when I was invited to sit with the “in” group for lunch and got to the table with my tray I was told there was no room. There was room, but just not for me. That is the day I decided to hang with the drug crowd. There was no room for me because miss goody two-shoes wouldn’t let the “in” ring leader cheat on her sit up count. Yes, that is me, from no cheating for someone else to taking drugs for myself. I was never punched in the stomach. Why was that allowed to happen? To everyone? I cannot understand. I cannot understand high school where people are stabbed. It is beyond my imagination. It puts my poor, poor me into a different perspective. Joe, I am so sorry you had to go thru all that. No one deserves to be treated that way. I am also sorry your parents divorced. Jeff's parents divorced as well. His mom left them.

“I remember a boy, not as dark, a lighter color, and red hair, he was sort of a friend, as far as that goes, he would tell me things to do to stay out of trouble, and I remember well, this 10 year old, or so, I can't remember exactly, but he showed me his knife scars on his belly, just lifting up his shirt, a crowded play area, black top, if I remember well. “

Why did he have knife scars?

“Someone had the bright idea to join up as a crossing guard. I wore a badge. “

I do not understand what that means.

“That is Legal Crime, that is the essence of it, the rules at play. Pass me the POWER. “

…I’m on your team…not

“…and China will be ordering us to pay for all the war debt, and they will be the new owners of The World Reserve Currency Power, which is the False Front covering up the actual New World Order.”

Who is the World Reserve Currency Power? Do you think is it the Rothchilds and the likes?

The New World Order has been in existence since at least the days of the Roman Empire. The actual fact of which current most powerful Legal Criminal is the most powerful one is a well kept secret in all those centuries whereby this Business Cycle has been wearing the groove in the broken record.

That statement makes me think of this verse: 1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come ; and even now already is it in the world.

The Apostle John wrote that in the first century. He said the spirit of anitchrist was already at work in the world. I also saw some youtube video that said the royalty in GB are actually Jewish. Do you know about that? I’ve watched a bunch of stuff, not knowing what to believe.

“There are exceptions, and those are very instructive studies, again, Holland, Switzerland, and that period of time between 1776 and 1788 here in America after it was part of the New World Order under the English Banking Monopoly Power (Fraud) and before the New World Order began operating out of Wall Street, as The Dollar Hegemony. “

I can remember if it is Greenland or Iceland that kicked the bankers our recently. Do you know about that?

“The Civil War was a case of making sure that The Dollar Hegemony stays on schedule as The New World Order, a.k.a, World Reserve Currency Fraud Power. The Civil War was actually set-up in The Constitution, it had to happen that way, because that is the way it was set-up. The North Legal Criminals (lower level) made a deal with the South Legal Criminals (lower level) to enslave, or Consolidate, the whole Nation into one State, but it had two heads. “

I remember asking you if the civil war was preplanned after you gave me the link to the dirty compromise. You did not come out and answer me straight like you just explained. Why? Is that because it is too much conspiracy theorist leaning? Joe, I had a lot harder time with all the socialism/communism stuff we discussed than conspiracy stuff. I do think there is a long term plan passed from generation to generation. Jeff does not tend to think so, or at least he didn’t last time I brought it up. He doesn’t see why any group would have a long term plan. I tried to explain that just like fathers leave their kids companies and inheritances, they also would leave control. I did not know to use the term “power” then. I watched a lot of youtube videos in the beginning when I was trying to figure out what was going on. I’ve watched stuff on the illuminate, bilderbergs, I used to listen to Alan Watt http://www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com/ he speaks on a world wide view, not just US view. I haven’t listened to him lately. I felt the information started to be just a new twist on the same thing. His programs are a little way down the page on the left side. He has a new one every night. I used to listen to Radio Liberty with Dr. Monteith http://www.radioliberty.com/ Some of the programs even talked about people who are like walking zombies whose personalities have been psychologically split to be Manchurian Candidates and are ready to do some ones bidding. It seems one of the Nazi docs did some of that research. I don’t know what to think about all of that stuff. A lot of it is frightening. Some of it may be misinformation. But I know good and well that this evil and demise of our land is no small scale thing.

Jeff has even picked up my Bonhoeffer book and started reading it in the last couple of weeks. I think he is realizing something is up. It is just taking longer for him. Everything I show him he counters. I was telling him yesterday about that Marine Brandon Raub getting indefinately detained. He wanted to defend the situation, then today the a DP post came out saying the Rutherford Institute is representing Brandon. Jeff got a little more interested because he respects that group. We even talked about me getting picked up because of the things I write. Said the doorbell could ring at any moment and the kids would get parceled out.

The saddest words from Patrick Henry to me:

“But I am fearful I have lived long enough to become an old-fashioned fellow. Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned; if so, I am contented to be so. I say, the time has been when every pulse of my heart beat for American liberty, and which, I believe, had a counterpart in the breast of every true American; but suspicions have gone forth—suspicions of my integrity—publicly reported that my professions are not real. Twenty-three years ago was I supposed a traitor to my country? I was then said to be the bane of sedition, because I supported the rights of my country.”

“Absolute despotism would be one bank of POWER, all the oxygen, all the sunlight, all the food, all the electricity, every physical power accumulated into one vault with one person demanding interest payments for every loan that withdrawn from the one POWER bank. “

Remember the some of the cartoons when we were kids. Underdog fighting someone trying to take over the world…It always seemed someone was trying to take over the world and here we are someone is really taking over the world.

“Legal Crime can't perpetuate if there is only ONE known criminal as it would then be a POWER struggle between every single victim against the ONE known criminal. The Legal Criminals figured it out, and they perpetuate their Hegelian Dialectic (Business Cycle) by creating Men of Straw, or Legal Fictions, inspired The People (victims) to join one, but not just one, there is at least three, like a farmer keeping one plot fertilizing while the other plots are engaged in the work of producing the product desired.”

That makes me think of Thomas Paine: “Absolute governments, (tho' the disgrace of human nature) have this advantage with them, they are simple; if the people suffer, they know the head from which their suffering springs; know likewise the remedy; and are not bewildered by a variety of causes and cures. But the constitution of England is so exceedingly complex, that the nation may suffer for years together without being able to discover in which part the fault lies; some will say in one and some in another, and every political physician will advise a different medicine.”

I would not have my Henry and Paine quotes if it were not for my JTK education.

“All I did was place the word on two Web Pages (two more web pages since the new word is already on these pages).”

Yes, I saw you used it in one of your DP comments as well…you, Equitablist, you! Is that going to be your new label? A unique label that you might define? Or did I already define it: Those that advocate Equitable Commerce.

“I have worked on the idea, not yet producing any actions on this path, of writing a script and then asking my very busy daughter to act out a theatrical youtube video to be uploaded and then testing for connectability. See how that works? If the title of the YouTube video, and the title of the theatrical product was Equitablist then gaining currency would be accelerated.”

That would be interesting indeed!

“How about 85 on straight downhill sections through open fields so as to build up momentum for the next uphill?”

Yes, I do try to be safe, slowing at the tops of hills so if someone pull out just over the crest I wont hit them. There are a lot of blind driveways on those roads.
“Nein, dass ist verboten!
But it is OK so long as you don't get caught?”

No, I was breaking the law. That is why I was wrong. I should obey the law. It is the law.

“This is not a new thing either. I may have told you about how Germany powered up their Military with Synthetic Fuel made from Coal. That is a long story, but it is similar to this new method of producing motor fuel with Modular Vertical Farming Units.”

Yes, I remember you telling me about Germany’s synthetic fuel. And with algae link you supplied: 1/10th of the state of New Mexico in vertical algae production would meet all the energy demands of the United States. (and the corn could feed the world instead of running our cars). I wonder if humans can eat algae? So, the Legal Criminals couldn’t afford to allow algae farming to gain power…It is hard to stomach. Especially with all the so called “green” jargon. Can you imagine how much pollution would be saved by using algae farming? We wouldn’t be sending money to the Middle East either to buy oil. How sickening it must be for these inventors and scientists to come up with solutions just to have them bought out and covered up. I wonder if the patent was purchased to shut it down?

“Why can't you grow tomatoes, carrots, corn, etc.?”

I think the system would have to be different than the algae system. Algae is tiny and can be processed thru the closed loop water/light system. But I don’t know why those long bags couldn’t be filled with dirt and have openings for seeds to be planted. I suppose the water could be in a closed loop system so that it does not evaporate.

"The gulag's daily food ration was padded with 400 to 800 grams of bread…
I read the link. I also had never considered what happened to all the German soldiers. I just don’t think about those things. I suppose Jeff knows. I did know that the Russians were cruel, but I did not know about the Americans being cruel as well. Do you think that was true?

No Country fo old men. That was weird. The coin toss. Kind of scary too, but I haven’t seen the movie. Why did you want me to watch that?

“I once won an M1 Rifle through a program put out by the DCM, which is a Federal Agency, got that?
…I used my 44 Mag, my Semi-Auto Tommy Gun, and my 45/70 Buffalo gun replica in the competition. I like making big holes in the target so as to take out more paper closer to the bulls eye. “

Maybe the “Federal Agency” wanted to know what kind of guns you and the rest of the competitors had? See how my mind works.

“No or what, they shot the cattle and buried them according to Gene, an eye witness.”

Did he say why? Did they have a disease?...that is the first thing Jeff said to me. And now I am remembering this year, Michigan, I think it was that all pigs that had any feral characteristics had to be killed…government orders. I think I will mention that to Jeff when he comes back in.

“I have a book by Rothbard covering the Great Depression. It was all a set-up, recording in black and white, no ifs, not buts, a fraud that went from doubling the money supply to cause the Roaring Twenties and then taking half the money out of circulation to cause The Great Depression and then when everyone is willing to do anything to survive they start World War II.”

I didn’t reread that part above before talking to Jeff, but I did tell him the depression was orchestrated…he went into the “dust bowl” etc. What is the name of Rothbard’s book?
“There is a tipping point at which roughly half become the willing members of the beast, and they know exactly what they are doing, look into Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports. The beast isn't one guy, or one group of people sitting around a table, that is all part of the Man of Straw that can be easily taken apart.”

There are some people here looking into those reports: http://www.dailypaul.com/249162/watch-citizens-take-back-the... my comment has the time on the video where CAFR is mentioned: http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2672775 I wonder if all CAFR give over sight authority to citizens groups?

Henry Ford makes me think of Josf: "If there is any one secret of success, it lies in the ability to get the other person's point of view and see things from that person's angle as well as from your own." - Henry Ford

"Nobody can think straight who does not work. Idleness warps the mind." - Henry Ford
“You think the Welfare people are getting something for nothing?”

No, they are getting something from me to the tune of 6.5 months out of the year, and they are also getting nothing but a warped mind because of it as the costs are passed on to them.

Some Christians were starting to sit around and wait for Jesus to return. They quit working etc. This is what Paul said: 2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work , neither should he eat.

I suppose that would make sure everyone did their fair share as well as keep their minds sharp.

“Some of the "Indians" around here get enough cash each month to buy every repo property that the Banks trickle on into the market, one a month, more or less, and one "Indian" can buy this town, for free.
Is that free?
The person in question, the "Indian", getting an unimaginable sum of money every month, spends it before the first week is over. You can guess where the power flows, like dumping 300 tons of 100 dollar bills inside a (counterfeit) war zone.”

No, I do not know anything about that. Is it the casino money they are getting? I remember Obama saying something about now it was the Indian’s turn. Did they make the housing bust on purpose so the money could be laundered thru the Indians?

"Do you pre-suppose that father evil because he was a man of wealth or bad because he had employees?"
RE Father in Prodigal son: Presupposition in the form of a question? A question is a question. If I ask a question then my intention is to find the accurate answer generally, and in this case the question intends to suppose that the question could be answered accurately, so as to know the full story, rather than half the story.
If the full story included wealth earned through legalized crime…

A Parable put simply, is an “earthly story with an heavenly meaning” A parable does not extrapolate all points of truth but the point of truth is meant for the subject of the parable. In this set of 3 parables in Luke 15 something is lost and then found. In the 3rd parable: The Prodigal Son: the Father represents God. The elder son represents the religious leaders and the younger son represents the publicans and the sinners.

The reason Jesus told this parable, or the context of the situation, is found in Luke 15:1 Then drew near * unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured , saying , This man *receiveth sinners, and eateth with them. 3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying”

Specifically vs. 2: The Scribes and Pharisees are disgusted that Jesus is entertains the company of sinners….that terrible “class” of “evil” people. So Jesus tells a story which shows them as that elder brother who begrudged the fact that the father received back the sinful son. Jesus was calling the religious leaders on the carpet.

“How did those servants become servants - exactly - or what does that word mean - exactly - this "servant" stuff?”

Ya made me look…Some of those servants were hired as in vs. 17: http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/misthios.html “an employee for hire”

Some of those servants were bond as in vs. 22 http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/doulos.html “a man of servile condition; slave”

Some of those servants were children: vs 26
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/pais.html

I cannot tell you why he had servants or who those servants were. That is not what the parable was about. It was an earthly story that everyone could understand which had a specific heavenly point to it.

The Father God received the publicans and sinners as they received Christ and the religious leaders were not happy about it. That is the point of the story as well as that the father fell on the neck of those sinners and kissed them and had a robe, shoes and ring brought to them and made a big party for them. Those “sinners” that had been living their lives at will while the religious leaders looked down their noses at them were welcomed and received by the Father. The religious leader’s response? They killed Jesus. They could not let him talk about them like that. He was taking power from them that they had held over the people.

Like this:Luke 18:8 [Jesus Speaking] I tell you that he will avenge them speedily *. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh , shall he find faith on the earth? 9 And he spake *this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray ; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess .13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying , God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased ; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted .

“To me there is no difference between the Employer and the Employee. When I sold my labor I was employing those people who sold their work loads to me. They had excess work to sell. I bought that work, so they were sales people, essentially, and I made a deal with them, an equitable deal. “

I see employers as those who own the ability to employ. I am not an employer right now (except of myself), but when I had cancer I was too weak to even clean. I hired an Amish girl to come and clean for me 4 hours a week. This was my first time to personally know an Amish person. I paid her more than she charged because I wanted to. I did not think $5 an hour was enough so I paid $7.50. I also rounded her time up. I also told her thank you for helping me. I did not have to do that. I did it because I wanted to and because it was within my power to do it. She did not keep her money until she turned 18. Up until that time it went to her family. I made the check out to her father. When she turned 18, I started making the check out to her. Just last month I gave her $20 for her birthday. She doesn’t work for me anymore, but somehow I became aware it was her birthday and I took her a card. She was not expecting that from me. I wanted to do it. Just like when I take that older Amish couple to town when we eat lunch I treat. Yes I am already driving, using my time, and then I turn around and buy their lunch. I am their servant as I place myself at their dispose. I do it because I want to. I didn’t even know the couple before I started to help them. The other day I overheard one of our single mothers at church saying she could not afford to send her daughter on the youth outing. She only had $5 and the cost was $15. I slipped her a $20. I have helped her often, even when I did not know of a need, but just felt impressed to do it. . I don’t have to do that. I couldn’t do that if Jeff wasn’t working an extra job. She works. She got a bad deal when her husband kicked her out. She even took in a homeless pregnant girl so she could help the girl. As soon as the baby was born the girl signed up for WIC and started taking drugs again. My friend still helps with the baby. See she helped someone and I helped her. All voluntary. It is easier for me to slip a $20 than take in a pregnant drug addict. We all have our callings.
An employer (or a friend) has the right to do what he wants to with payment. I happened to want to do more than was requested of me. As an employee I also gave more to my employer than was requested. I showed up early and stayed late. I worked all day long for my employer at an “outstanding” rate and did not take time away for personal business etc. while on the clock. But that is me. Each employer and employee and friend has to answer for himself

As far as slaves. Daniel Boone’s wife came to America as an indentured servant. She traded how many ever years of service for passage to America. She traded a time of bond for a life of liberty. There are good things about servitude as well as bad. Not all parents are good. Some are extremely evil to their children. So is the answer that no one should have kids because some parents are evil? Shall we give all the kids to the state to raise? If 90% of people are good and those 90% had servants and kids how will they treat them?

Proverbs 17:2 A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame , and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.

Proverbs 29:21 He that delicately bringeth up his servant from a child shall have him become his son at the length

My earlier write up on slavery http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2599788 stated that in my opinion there are true forms and counterfeit forms. I should add now that there are kind people and evil people that make the difference

Please consider this: When the constitution was written between the people and the consolidated government Patrick Henry took issue that it was not written between the states and the government. The states were the protectorate of the conglomerated public in that state. Families: Husbands, Wives, Children, servants are also protected in a conglomerated protective family institution instead of every man for himself. Look what we have now: People working 6.5 months for a consolidated government while the people who may have been employed by employers (private employers like me) are sitting on their porches having their minds warped by lack of work. I am now the servant to those people sitting on porches because I am paying them to do nothing. They should be working for me since I am paying them. Instead I pay for my demise because they are now allegiant to the federal government that pays them my money.

“Why does one have to be Master and one has to be Slave?”

It depends on what you mean by slave, but IMO

a) Because some people work harder than others and get ahead and that snowballs, while some people are slothful and do only what it takes to get by and never get ahead.

b) Because for some strange reason some people are just lucky and get ahead while others are unlucky and stay behind

c) Because some people make money and turn around and make that money make money for them while other people spend every penny they get (me) and don’t have any money to make money for them.

d) .Because some people are born into positions of wealth.

e) Because some people are born with more intelligence than others.

f) Because some people are more intelligent but fail to use that gift and squander it, while others who are hard-workers get ahead.

g) Because evil people steal power

h) Because as Grep P says humans want to dominate each other. But I think we should add the word “some” before humans or maybe the words “more than others” should be added after the word other; i.e., Some humans want to dominate each other more than others.

i) Because 10 year olds playing basketball take advantage.

“What ever happened to equity?”

What is equity?

“Why does it have to be iniquitous?
The right answer is that it does not have to be iniquitous.
Some people invent iniquity, and they force that invention upon all the victims, by fraud, by force, by hook, or by crook.”

Iniquitous is not the opposite of equity. Iniquity is another word for sin. Inequity is the word for unfair. And I suppose that fairness has to do with who is the judge of what is fair.
Just because someone has a so called better position in life does not mean that they got it by evil means. I would dare say that even among Friends of Liberty that some would achieve and some would not even if everyone was paid that same amount per hour, some would work longer to get more or some would be more frugal and some would see opportunity to make money and make it. Some would not give a hoot about making money and would make just enough to get by and spend the rest of their time smelling the roses. If opportunity is removed, I believe the system would become an involuntary one like forced socialism or forced communism.

Darkness

"Who is the World Reserve Currency Power? Do you think is it the Rothchilds and the likes?"

One very strong reason for my tendency to believe in God is the absolute understanding that The Devil exists in human forms. Once in awhile one of those devils will be nearby, and this is very, very, very bad.

I think the best guess is that the worst of the worst call themselves Jesuits. This makes the most sense to me, since they would take on and corrupt the greatest power for good.

I spent almost no time going down that path, of trying to find out which group is the most powerful group, but many people have done extensive work in many directions, looking for that most powerful group, the one's pulling the strings.

I see no point in it. That group must be where hell on earth exists, in real time, just imagine what you would have to be just to be near it. This is unfathomable territory, in my opinion, for someone who has a working conscience, another world, so I prefer to keep my boundary.

The whole concept of a worst person isn't fantasy, it is merely a matter of which method is chosen to measure the facts, and that worst person may not last long since another rival may be raising the bar, so to speak, so the concept of a worst person can be a diversion, an image of a bunch of witches around a black pot, something to discredit anyone who may focus defensive power toward the worst person, and the second worst person, and the third worst person. They don't even have to know each other, they are connected in DEEDS and MOTIVES. They share the same Destructive POWER.

That is the enemy, and it is human form, and if you care not to look at the details, then I can concur in that decision, there is no point. There are plenty of lower level bad guys, Presidents of these American people, counterfeit versions, to employ, to measure, to know, and then to use as Good Cause to stop sending them any more power. Those minions, those Presidents, are the connecting nodes to the Victims, so that can be severed, that connection, and it can be done peacefully, just look in the mirror, know of the need to stop sending them power, then work to get other people on the same page, and if we succeed, by such and such a day, then we stop being victims that way.

We stop providing the means by which we suffer, and then deal with other things.

We can't deal with other things while we are anemic and while we keep letting the "doctor" cut on us, letting the blood out, supposedly curing us.

This is also not news. I have a very good book concerning how things were between Kings and Doctors in the 16th century. Blood letting.

Kings new their days were numbered when the doctors showed up.

The cure being worse than the ailment is not news.

Who does the diagnosing? Who does the prescribing? Who does the treating?

Best get up, go to the bathroom, look in the mirror.

Stop pretending that high paid liars are our masters, it isn't healthy for any human being on Earth.

Jesuits are my best guess, and it fits, and I'm not even going to pretend to know better, that is merely a guess.

"…I’m on your team…not"

The lie has to be convincing, or there is no power in it.

"That statement makes me think of this verse: 1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come ; and even now already is it in the world."

My guess is that you speak to all of God's Creation so as to help them learn what you know, what you believe, and we, as one, appear to you as one thing, more or less, not in a bad way, just a general viewpoint, a method of seeing the forest, and not having to count the rings in each tree. I do not disbelieve these translations that you offer of scripture, but the stakes are high, and I can't allow myself the luxury of blind belief, or as I call it counterfeit belief.

I think you can understand, and don't let me set you off too far in your routines, or methods, of spreading the word. I may be an exception to many of the rules of thumb that apply well to God's Creation.

"I can remember if it is Greenland or Iceland that kicked the bankers our recently. Do you know about that?"

Iceland has been a place where there has been a history of anarchism, if such a word can be understood without too much confusion, and you can look up the word Icelandic Commonwealth.

Add Iceland to the short list, sure.

1. Holland
2. Switzerland
3. Iceland
4. American between 1776 and 1788
5. Average suburban or rural town in America (discounting the connections to The FED via The IRS and the Consolidated Government including the accounts recording in Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports)

I'm don't remember much about Greenland, it is not ringing a bell.

We in America have peaked past the major BOOM cycle, many minor Boom/Busts along the way, but I think we are on the way down now, so all this American Dream stuff will no longer apply so long as the Worst Power still has Power over us, so long as we still "provide the means by which we suffer" through The Dollar Fraud, or whatever will replace that Fraud with another Fraud, a new World Reserve Currency POWER, anything but our own accurate and competitive Legal Money.

Even our suburban examples of what does work, competitively, will be rendered powerless if the Cycle is allowed to BUST out on schedule. We may have small micro Booms to keep the Dupes guessing, playing the rigged Monopoly Game, but the trend from here on out is DOWN into the abyss.

We are on the schedule to lose World War III, and that is hardly a prophecy, the warning signs, the actual measure of that fact, is easy to see if you care to look, but this is again like looking for the very worst people: what is the point?

Know the way out, and get out.

Opt out.

What can they do without us providing the means by which we suffer?

Nothing.

They know it. Why is so much POWER spent on keeping the victims powerless, and keeping them connected to their Masters?

BREAK

"I do think there is a long term plan passed from generation to generation. Jeff does not tend to think so, or at least he didn’t last time I brought it up. He doesn’t see why any group would have a long term plan."

If a thought works on you to inspire you to be powerless then it may be a good idea to seek out the origin of that thought, to try to back space your way to the actual source of the thought, is the though internal, as in a part of your spirit, your intuition, or is it a part of your thinking brain, a calculation, logic, reason, or is it common sense, or is the source of the thought external, a thing told to you by someone else, and upon closer inspection the source is ambiguous, not in scripture, not actually accountable to anything; what then?

The Thoughts and DEEDS that connect criminals, especially legal criminals, are common to them, they don't have to be at the same table, or in the same century, or following the same written agreement, and they don't have to all have some nebulous secret hand shake. Their commonality is the acquisition of power from the weak, from the innocent, so as to then have the power to take more power and more power, the opposite of what you identify as God's commandments.

It matters not if the worst people in the last century have anything to do with the current worst people pulling the strings now, other than an academic exorcize or worse it is a false front, a diversion, a way of keeping the victims divided, as one victim looks at another victim and blames the fellow victim for being a "conspiracy theorist", so how well does that tactic work in reality?

Divide and conquer or The Hegelian Dialectic, the words cover up very bad deeds, and how many very bad deads can you count on two hands?

I have three.

1.
Resort to deception as a means of destroying the innocent and transferring power from the victim, and passing on all costs to the victim.

2.
Resort to threats of aggressive violence as a means of destroying the innocent and transferring power from the victim, and passing on all costs to the victim.

3.
Resort to aggressive violence without limit as a means of destroying the innocent and transferring power from the victim, and passing on all costs to the victim.

Willful Crime perpetrated by criminals who formulate a plan, target victims, and then perpetrate crime upon targeted innocent victims.

If they make their crimes legal, that is merely deception, already covered.

The worst people are going to be the best criminals, the most deceptive, the most able to threaten (without the victim even knowing from where the treats originate), and the most violent.

The worst people are going to be the most able to destroy and therefore they will be the most powerful people who then willfully employ their power to make their power more than anyone else, and they accomplish that through those same means, already covered, and the name of their game is destruction.

They gain power so as to destroy life.

That links every one of them to each other, even if they never meet personally, they are as one because they do the same things.

So what is this fixation on "conspiracy"?

Why is that word any more significant than entropy or ectropy?

The obvious answer is that the word "conspiracy" is a divisive tool used to divide the targeted victims. If the word merely meant two or more people planning to injure someone then there would be no connection to "theory" it would be merely two or more people planning to injure someone.

"Conspiracy Theorist" is like "Monetary Crank" or "Sinful Messiah", where the object sought by pushing that form of currency, that message, that term, is to make people fight each other instead of people agreeing with each other, the object of the invention, production, and maintenance of the lie is to dilute the defensive power of the victims, so that the victims are weak, divided, and helpless.

Divide and conquer.

Hegelian Dialectic.

A thief will arrive at the store, find what to steal, get in place to steal the thing, and then point in another direction and yell out "thief". While all heads are turned in the direction of the intended diversion the thief picks up the thing stolen.

Who falls victim to that twice?

How stupid is it to pay Federal Income Tax with Fraud Money so that criminals who make their crimes legal gain more power while we grow weaker by the penny?

How many pennies does it take to make 300 tons of 100 dollar bills?

How stupid is it for one of us to help the criminals make each other of us pay Federal Income Tax with Federal Reserve Notes?

It is not at all stupid if that is how we earn our living.

What is the quota required to make a living wage, along with a healthy retirement plan, as to how many fellow victims are kept in line, by our thoughts, and by our actions, as all those thoughts and actions are added up to make a total power of collective force?

How far off is Tax Evader from Draft Dodger?

Why do you think people attack me? I threaten the broken record, and they know that if the needle jumps out of the groove then the Liberty song will start playing again.

There goes their something for nothing plan.

Attack that conspiracy theorist anarchist nutcase with the tin hat before something really bad happens, and make sure that he pays his fair share.

Why?

So torture and mass murder can stay legal, make sure that person can't transfer another idea, because those ideas can upset our pay rate?

A whole lot of people have to get up, go to the bathroom, and take a serious look in the mirror. Many have, and they choose to kick the can down the road, and they choose to rat on those who don't obey without question, and they choose to profit at the expense of who cares who, what, when, or where, just pay, pay, pay, and do not question authority, so long as it isn't my turn to be tortured or murdered, and if the order goes out to terrorize the "conspiracy theorists" or the "terrorists" or whatever name works today, then how high should I jump now boss, and let me lick those boots, since there seems to be so much blood, brain matter, skin, hair, and other debris soiling them, lick, lick, slobber, slobber, ahhhh, so much better now.

It is pathetic. It is pathology. It is so far from common sense that there has to be a logical reason, and that isn't too hard to figure out, it pays well, in the short term, and now, after the peak of the BOOM, the pay rate is a steady rate of diminishing returns.

Best get better at Legal Crime, cause there ain't going to be enough dupes to go around.

"It seems one of the Nazi docs did some of that research."

Look into Edward Bernays, his work predated the Nazi version, and the Bolsheviks improved the technique, and The Khmer Rouge people, all financed through The Dollar Hegemony set the bar so high it is unlikely anyone can get that good at torture and mass murder so fast again.

The bar of just how well someone can be the most evil is set very high already.

Want to find out if the bar can be set higher?

Pay more, you may get what you pay for in spades.

"Twenty-three years ago was I supposed a traitor to my country? I was then said to be the bane of sedition, because I supported the rights of my country.”"

Conspiracy Theorist! Tax Evader!

Where is my rope?

Where is that bus?

Note: "My country", according to the study done by Lysander Spooner, was meant to be The People as a whole, rather than naming every person in My Country, it was not meant to be a Legal Fiction of Limited Liability, an entity unto itself, a False God on a pedestal, or throne, where The People are mere subjects, and the Nation State is the source of all POWER including authority.

"I would not have my Henry and Paine quotes if it were not for my JTK education."

OK, but see the nature of how Modular the tactic can be, as with the English (Fraud) Government (Legal Crime) there were three entities, each supposedly fighting the other one, King, Commons, etc., and scale that up, and you find the work in the book 1984 with Eurasia, Oceania, and Eastasia, and note the time frame required on the largest scale, whereby the battle lasts longer than one generation. The English may finally figure out their state of being subjected to fraud, but after the war with Oceania the next generation is born into a new version of the same story, jumping back into the groove of the broken record.

France was in power before England, after England was America, and after America will be Asia, and the confused victims can't remember from one generation to another if their history is false.

The Founding Fathers were one group and they all worked to give us security with their conservative Constitution. That is a pack of lies.

Lincoln freed the Slaves!

Have you read anything about Grant, Sherman, and The Indian Problem?

Where do you think Grant and Sherman learned how to slaughter people so well?

"Or did I already define it: Those that advocate Equitable Commerce."

Is that the official definition from the source?

Can I quote that?

"I wonder if humans can eat algae?"

I can try to find something along those lines and this is something I found by accident. I saw Marlon Brando being interviewed by Larry King and Marlon was pushing seaweed as a food that can feed the entire world without any trouble. Marlon had a seaweed cookie to let Larry try too.

The whole "overpopulation" scare is a diversion, a false front, like Global Warming. While they starve people they blame it on the victims, and while they heat up the globe (so as to starve people) they blame it on the victims.

This is not news.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jul/10/business/fi-seafarm10

Sea water, not desalinated water, is usable in producing that crop. Why are people starving?

Knowledge is powerful.

That knowledge of knowing how to feed starving people is POWER, so what do you think happens to that much POWER, that knowledge?

"I wonder if the patent was purchased to shut it down?"

That is the story behind Synthetic Oil made from Coal.

I found this:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Crime-Punishment-I-G-Farben/dp/002...

That, if I remember correctly, led me to the work done by Sutton:

http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/

http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/bolshevik_revolution/

Germany was allowed to use the Synthetic Petroleum Formula to fuel their Military, that is a documented fact. Synthetic Petroleum was alive and well in Germany since the 1930s. Petroleum as a fuel, a POWER, was not even known before 1860, so why is petroleum now an "addiction"?

There is no Oil Crisis, and you may like listening to this person:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbakN7SLdbk

There is no Financial Crisis, either, these are crimes in progress, so why not process the criminals with due process?

Why put Willie Nelson in jail while torturing mass murderers are running amok at the Head of our Country?

"No Country fo old men. That was weird. The coin toss. Kind of scary too, but I haven’t seen the movie. Why did you want me to watch that?"

The character who flips the coin is an assassin in the movie, and the concept of the coin toss, if I am not mistaken, intends to be a counterfeit version of a conscience. If the coin toss is wrong (or right) then the assassin kills the person betting on the coin toss, if it is right (or wrong) the assassin does not kill the the person betting on the coin toss.

I should not have linked that video to someone who did not watch the movie or read the book.

"Did he say why? Did they have a disease?..."

The cows were healthy sources of food in abundance during the depression.

If food is made scarce what happens to the price of food?

It is that simple. They made food scarce. They were raising the price of food. They were experimenting with their POWER to take more POWER. They were in POWER, Gene was merely a witness to the abuse of power demonstrated in real time.

What will people not do when ordered?

"What is the name of Rothbard’s book?"

http://library.mises.org/books/Murray%20N%20Rothbard/America...

There is the free version. The Austrian Economists want to spread the word faster. The price for that is cost? What is the price for that book?

"I wonder if all CAFR give over sight authority to citizens groups?"

The probable first wide spread warning about C.A.F.R. was Walter Burien in the year 2000, published on VHS tapes.

Since then the Legal Criminals have been closing up those published confessions of their crimes. This is common sense.

Taxes were paid, tax funds were invested into profit making ventures, funds grew over time, and people were recording those tax collections, those investments, and those profits.

The actual investments of tax collections, Nation Wide, have been recorded since World War II, or so, according to some investigations, including Walter Beurien's work. The evidence discovered, in those investigations, record large profits from those investments, and that information was kept from The Public, while The Public was fed the Budget information.

The Budget information reports claimed that "we are broke".

They were lying with The Budget information.

They were recording the accurate accounts on Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports (at least some of the information, certainly not all the information concerning who does what with which money).

In essence the Budget was the False Front covering up the profits which were being made through tax collections invested in profitable ventures. The CAFR reports were the actual records that needed to exist, to know what went where, and those CAFR reports had to be covered up with The Budget False Fronts.

If any government was involved in this type of cover-up, then a process of discovery, gaining access to a Comprehensive Annual Financial Report could prove the fact, so long as those people running that government has not yet covered those tracks since the year 2000.

It is now 2012.

What about archives?

Does your (or my) city archive outdated Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports, and if you are going to fight this fight are you prepared to win it?

That video of Citizens volunteering to hold their local governments to account are instructive, very instructive, but to me those Friends of Liberty are going to run into the State, and then The Federal Government Agents, and are those Friends of Liberty prepared for that battle?

All those accounts are denominated in Federal Reserve Notes, or Legal Fraud units of Legal Money.

Those Friends of Liberty are treating specific cuts in the body, a good thing, but the cause of the cuts, the Legal Criminals who hire these "doctors" (local government agents), may not like their subjects (tax payers = targets) taking law (counterfeit) law, taking law into their own Friends of Liberty hands.

I'm just saying that this type of local action may gain significant ground for Liberty, but the real battle must someday deal with the FRAUD money supply and the FRAUDS who run it at the Top of this Country.

"For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work , neither should he eat."

Just work, or is it assumed that work produces more power out of less power?

That is not a trivial question.

Work, a generic term, could mean someone digging a hole, and then someone else filling in the hole, and those two workers keep doing that for years, going in one circle, ten feet in diameter. If they work really hard they can dig a 1 foot hole, 1 foot in diameter in 10 spots around the 10 foot diameter area many times in one day, going around, and around, and around, so that they can earn their share of the food?

"Is it the casino money they are getting? I remember Obama saying something about now it was the Indian’s turn. Did they make the housing bust on purpose so the money could be laundered thru the Indians?"

The Indian problem has not reached The Final Solution despite much in the way of trying to get to that goal. The same is true for the Jewish Problem with that Final Solution, it did not quite reach the goal? Who made torture and mass murder legal?

Your ancestors, those Founding Fathers?

I don't know much about the current efforts to solve the Indian Problem, probably Casino money, which is a License given to "players" who then have the Legal License to fleece the flock legally, according to the rules, and who pays those costs?

Gamblers?

Like a gambler on Wall Street?

The games are rigged, and they hate it when "players" game their game, "reading" cards, etc.

Competition?

Incorporation?

Hey, how about a treaty?

We let you have access to our tax payers and you still don't have to pay any tax, but we get a piece of the action, how is that, a partnership? We scratch your back, and you scratch our back?

"He was taking power from them that they had held over the people."

Monopoly POWER has to destroy competition, one cannot exist if it is two not one.

Incorporate (corrupt) the competition or, if they do not obey without question, then crush them.

Monopoly cannot exist in competition, it is a contradiction, it can't happen.

BREAK

"So is the answer that no one should have kids because some parents are evil? Shall we give all the kids to the state to raise? If 90% of people are good and those 90% had servants and kids how will they treat them?"

All that, to me, are symptoms. You speak of transferring numbers of dollars, or $, which is POWER, and it is Legal Power.

That is the cause of all those symptoms. Not you using money. The cause of all those symptoms is the fact that everyone is made to use that ONE money from that ONE source.

If you can't see that, that way, then I do not transfer my POWER to see the Big Picture to you. The puzzle is not in view if you do not see that the PROBLEM is that unit of $, because that is FRAUD, that is a crime in progress, your use of that money marks you as a mark, a victim, a slave, a weaker, and weaker, and weaker human being, as time goes by, so long as you are under that influence, along with everyone else connected by that connection, that Medium of Exchange, Legal DEBT, $$$$, you are connected to the worst Evil mankind has ever had the extreme misfortune to suffer.

Know the problem or you will never solve it, and you will forever be misdirected, divided, discouraged, and off chasing your tail, failing to see The Forest, as it burns, because you can't see the arsonists who keep the fire burning, who keep the Fire Trucks held back at the gate leading into the Compound where the church goers are supposedly committing suicide as they jump under those tank treads within the fire.

You transfer POWER to people who are weaker, and that is the definition of generosity, but the Medium of Exchange is a virus, like those plague ridden blankets "given" to the "Indians", the blankets are powerful forms of insulation against loss of heat, powerful tools, life saving tools, blankets, or Mediums of Exchange, money, but what is hidden in those tools?

Under closer inspection the Blankets turned out to be Trojan Horses.

Here, take this gift, it will keep you warm at night.

A peace treaty.

A Final Solution to the Indian Problem.

The Great Depression, a BOOK, shows how a TOOL works for evil people who use that tool, which was a combination of The Federal Reserve with The IRS, both of which were "enacted" into "Law" in 1913.

The "gift" was to "save the children" from harm, to save them from Booms and Busts that were so destructive, so bad, so bad, that The Federal Reserve and The IRS were given to The People to help them avoid so much destruction caused by Booms and Busts GONE WILD!

Guess what?

They, those criminals made legal, were the prime cause of those Booms and Busts before 1913, those criminals who Monopolize, who Consolidate, who enslave, who incorporate all competition, or crush all competition, and they perpetrated a FRAUD in the creation of The Creature from Jekyll Island.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Creature-Jekyll-Island-Federal/dp/...

The FED and IRS were and are working Trojan Horses, working Disease infested blankets, working DEBT NOTES, and how well does it work?

They keep score, and this score board is a tip of the Iceberg, itself a False Front covering up the real score.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

You think that you only owe 139,937 dollars to the IRS, one way or another, they will kill you or get that out of you, and that doesn't even count the DEBT owed by your children, and that is all you owe, only that much?

Guess again.

The collectors on those bad bets won't be the most evil people, hardly, since you only have to get up, go to the bathroom, look in the mirror, to find the real culprit, the ONE who has been led to believe in that DEBT. The worst people will hire minions to collect the debt.

Look in the mirror.

You use the money.

You are an integral part of the Network of DEBT, the same as everyone else who uses that money.

If every victim to it knows their fate and at once every victim to it stops using it, and starts using accurate money instead, powerful money instead of FRAUD money (very destructively POWERFUL because it transfers power in hidden ways), then the Revolution is over, and we win, the former victims win.

Which victims?

Do you get a handsome divided each month for your investments in Dollar denominated funds?

Will your income stream vanish if everyone else switches over to another money?

yes

no

Why are so many people working to keep The Dollar Money so (destructively) powerful?

They are stupid?

Is that an interesting question?

If a jackal arrives at your door and says that there is a deal for you, something that pays very well, if you would just stop bemoaning the fact that the authorities are evil, lesser evil, evil, and you seem to be gaining currency with your whistle blowing, so take the deal, you can't afford not to take the deal, and you too will be paid well, comfortably well, which is a very interesting proposition, all you have to do is this, this, and this, and you will be set for life.

Keep your mouth shut, use the money, and use it the right way, and things will be just fine.

Don't question the money.

Please, for your own good, don't question the money.

Take the deal, it is in your best interest, says the jackal, because the next guys to knock on the door won't be so nice.

Just fall in line, take the deal, it is in your best interest, do not question the money, and things will be fine.

Take the deal.

Don't question the money.

Take the deal.

Don't question the money.

Go ahead, fight this or that battle, no problem, but take the deal.

Don't question the money.

We are all in this together.

Don't question the money.

Are we really that stupid?

No, many of us have a vested interest, which is very interesting, in keeping that money doing what it does so well, for awhile longer.

Just know, get the best insider information possible, know, know, know, when to hedge, when to sell out, when to put options on destruction, and don't get caught holding the empty bag.

All will be fine.

Don't question the money.

Use it to your own advantage, it is in your best interest.

Everyone, and I mean everyone, satisfies their own requirements as completely as possible to the exclusion of all others, so use the money, that is what it is designed to do, use it as leverage, use it to your advantage, but don't get caught on the short end of that stick.

Everything will be fine.

OK?

Don't question the money.

OK?

Do we have a deal?

You can't afford not to take this deal.

OK?

"I should add now that there are kind people and evil people that make the difference"

Which money do they use?

"They should be working for me since I am paying them. Instead I pay for my demise because they are now allegiant to the federal government that pays them my money."

While you look at hired voters to be the enemy, and while I look at forum members protecting their income stream by down voting my warnings here as the enemy, neither one of us focuses attention on Ending THE FED, THE IRS, and THE TROOPS slaughtering the innocent for money?

The FED borrows money from The Good Faith and Credit of The American People.

Is that true or not true?

People at The FED double the money supply, like they did to cause the roaring 20s, to then cause The Great Depression, to then finance all sides of World War II, and they just doubled the money supply again in 2008, and that is them, those people, borrowing from us the Good Faith and Credit of The American People.

They borrow from us.

Is that a true statement?

If someone, anywhere, wonders why they are now Up-Side-Down with their home mortgage, do they have to wonder long?

Are we that stupid?

You wrote:

"...the constitution was written between the people and the consolidated government..."

NO SUCH THING

That type of thinking is still infecting your soul?

You want me to tell you what to do, then listen to me, or rather listen to Lysander Spooner, call him any name you want, just remove him from the message and judge the message to be true or not true.

Here:

http://jim.com/treason.htm

Free information right?

Free, free, free, ohhhhhhh isn't it marvelous to be free?

_______________________________________________
“Why does one have to be Master and one has to be Slave?”

It depends on what you mean by slave, but IMO
_______________________________________________

Focus attention on people who decide to be paid for doing nothing?

Is that an interesting focus of attention?

In a Monopoly Money POWER regime, that is the rule, not the exception.

What makes Ben Bernanke any different than any of the other employees (slaves) to that system?

Ben works harder?

How about smiles?

Ben smiles, how about those people you appear to be focusing your attention upon, do they smile, ever?

"some people are slothful and do only what it takes to get by and never get ahead"

Ben is better because he is energetic?

"b) Because for some strange reason some people are just lucky and get ahead while others are unlucky and stay behind"

The Dice is loaded, so where is this luck factor, exactly?

Heads they win.

Tails we lose.

Tax evader!

Man, do I ever stop playing the same record, I wonder, don't I have a back up tune?

"c) Because some people make money and turn around and make that money make money for them while other people spend every penny they get (me) and don’t have any money to make money for them."

That is interesting, how does that work?

"d) .Because some people are born into positions of wealth."

Relative to what, a person starving to death faster than their children, so as to prolong their children's misery, wealthy realtive to that condition of "life"?

My wealth was handed down from my father the Corn tycoon, where we "make corn scarce to save the children"?

Which money was being used at that time?

"e) Because some people are born with more intelligence than others."

So they take the deal, because it is obviously less taxing?

"f) Because some people are more intelligent but fail to use that gift and squander it, while others who are hard-workers get ahead."

I worked for 25 years, hard labor, not always, but relatively speaking my labor showed up in callouses, worn out joints, scars, emergency trips to the clinic, suffering. I got ahead of the tax man, just barely. Had I figured out the, what is the acceptable word, the false front for tax evasion, you know, come on, you are not unintelligent, the word is a term, the words are loop holes, whispered, loop holes, and just how much farther ahead could I be now?

How much farther ahead could I be had I not squandered my intelligence those 25 years of hard labor, that I would not trade for anything, since that is my life, that is how I traveled while I walk the Earth and stand for LIFE?

How is this non-squandering of intelligence measured, please?

"g) Because evil people steal power"

That is my prize. That is my wealth. That is the sum total of my earnings, if I don't count the production of 2 children, which I don't count, that is a gift to me from God, not my "profits" realized by me not squandering my intelligence, and not my earnings from my hard labor. My prize is knowledge.

"g) Because evil people steal power"

Failure to know that is measurable. How about keeping score?

"What is equity?"

The opposite can define equity by contrast, like day can be defined by night. I think that the opposite of equity is iniquity.

I can have things mixed up, of course.

My way of defining equity is to negotiate right from wrong among any number of people sharing that goal honestly and effectively.

You can define words as you see fit, of course.

If you borrow my definition then that may be an example of equity as you agree to find the right definition of that word. Equity is an equitable word if we negotiate the meaning of that word equitably.

This is like the word euphemism. Euphemism is a euphemism, if it were not a euphemism then the accurate word would be deception, or lie, where the intended meaning of Euphemism was to identify a deception in progress, to show that the real thing is called what it is, instead of making up another word to stand in place of the word that works best to describe the real thing. A euphemism is a euphemism for a lie.

What is a lie?

A lie is a lie.

What is a euphemism?

A euphemism is a word that is invented to cover up the real word that works best to convey the accurate meaning.

How about examples of Euphemisms?

1.
Extraordinary Rendition
2.
Liquidation of Human Capital
3.
Quantitative Easing
4.
Enhanced Interrogation Techniques
5.
Austerity Measures
6.
Legalese
7.
Monetary Interest
8.
Waste Removal Technician
9.
Family Planning Agent
10.
Tax Payer

Euphemisms are grand experiments in language embellishment!

"What is equity?"

Ve have veys of defining that word too.

There are worse things than equity, but not if you depend upon crime for a living.

"Iniquitous is not the opposite of equity."

OHHHHHH BOOOYYYYYYY

Now I am on the edge of my seat, seriously, because here is where I can learn to be more accurate when employing English language effectively. I do not like using the wrong words when I try desperately to convey accurate meaning with English.

I really do think, up until now, that equity is the opposite of iniquity, so please understand my euphoria at this point, the stage appears to be set up very well for my education in this matter.

I don't want to be disappointed, but you can probably tell that I am skeptical. This could be a very important moment in my education process.

"Iniquity is another word for sin. Inequity is the word for unfair. And I suppose that fairness has to do with who is the judge of what is fair."

OK, well, that was a major let down. Where does equity not become the opposite of iniquity? Your words appear to say the opposite, your words appear to confirm, in fact, that iniquity is the opposite of equity.

Who is confused here?

"Iniquitous is not the opposite of equity."

I don't know how anyone can accurately communicate to anyone else with this English stuff, it is like using a butter knife to eat a tough steak. Hack, hack, hack, and the steak is still whole.

"Just because someone has a so called better position in life does not mean that they got it by evil means."

OK, here is where I look left, around behind me, I look right, again look around behind me, I'm looking for whomever you are speaking to with that version of why equity is not the opposite of iniquity.

So you can read Equitable Commerce by Josiah Warren and you then converse with me in those words?

Joe throws up.

Hands.

Figuratively.

Now what?

"I believe the system would become an involuntary one like forced socialism or forced communism."

OK, I get it, right.

Never forced religion, when talking to me, for some reason.

Never forced conservatism. Me gain, I get it.

Never forced capitalism, because it is me on the other end of this lesson.

Never forced equity, because that has nothing to do with iniquity?

I just fell off the tuna boat, plop, and here I am to be the object of some nebulous Man of Straw play acting?

What am I supposed to say now?

I am a socialist!

I am a communist!

Why don't you just shoot me and get it over with sooner?

Joe

Enough Said?

I am feeling abit like I may be out staying my welcome. You do not have to reply to this or even read it.

“I spent almost no time going down that path, of trying to find out which group is the most powerful group…”

When I woke up, I did not know what in the world was going on. I did some searching, but certainly did not know what to believe. I don’t feel the need to delve into finding out the evil either. It is what it is. I was just curious as to what you thought was the source “group.” I did some reading on that group earlier on, but there are so many theories about everything I really didn’t peg that one or any of them except that there is a collective evil at work in the world and in our land. Once I found Ron Paul and started hearing the truth of his message and then ran into you I no longer felt the need to continue searching for what is wrong. You have enlightened me to understand why Ron Paul stands for ending the Fed & IRS; and bringing the troops home.

My guess is that you speak to all of God's Creation so as to help them learn what you know, what you believe…”

Yes, as the opportunity arises, but if the door is shut, I do not proceed. It is not my job to pry doors open to teach. There are those who will hear. There are those who will understand.

You did not shut the door and you were willing to hear, to listen, and discuss.
___________________
“Add Iceland to short list, sure.”

Why do the criminals allow Iceland to resist? Is the value of that commonwealth not high enough with which to be concerned?

I remember speaking with Greg P about New Hampshire. His idea is to get out of the US. Maybe the idea there is to go where residual value of the land is not great enough to be raided by the Legal Criminals?

“The obvious answer is that the word "conspiracy" is a divisive tool used to divide the targeted victims.”

Also perhaps a Parthian Arrow for those that do not what to hear about the problem? I guess that is part of the dividing process. It gives those that would be on the side of Liberty a reason to stay apart from Liberty as well as dividing Friends of Liberty.

"Sinful Messiah"

What do those words mean?

How far off is Tax Evader from Draft Dodger?

People went to Canada to get away from the draft. They ran, they did not stay and stand for their Liberty. So the approach here seems different unless Friends of Liberty hide.

This is said 2 times in Proverbs
• Proverbs 22:3 A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on , and are punished .

And again in

• Proverbs 27:12 A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself; but the simple pass on , and are punished

Proverbs also says:

• Proverbs 28:28 When the wicked rise , men hide themselves: but when they perish , the righteous increase .

I am not sure if that means Friends of Liberty should hide or stand. Maybe it means when wickedness is too great it is wise to hide. Is that Lew Rockwell’s message. Disengage? …I pretty much am just hearing that message 2nd hand here on the DP so I don’t quite understand where that man is coming from when Ron Paul is engaged in a political fight for the sake of Liberty:
End the Fed
End the IRS
Bring the Troops Home
And may have found a way of doing it with the delegates and unseating individuals with political power within the GOP
____________________
“Why do you think people attack me? I threaten the broken record, and they know that if the needle jumps out of the groove then the Liberty song will start playing again.”

But maybe it is because the enemy has spread so much disinformation RE the Hegelian Dialect. Perhaps then, people are not attacking you, but attacking that which they have been deceived to attack. That is where education seems to me to be the goal: So that if at all possible, those true Friends of Liberty who are deceived can become fully aware, one at a time. And if they are clinging to gold, well it may be time to pledge life and fortune; i.e. the money and the banana in the jar? Let go of that golden banana, already.

“Look into Edward Bernays, his work predated the Nazi version, and the Bolsheviks improved the technique, and The Khmer Rouge people, all financed through The Dollar Hegemony set the bar so high it is unlikely anyone can get that good at torture and mass murder so fast again.

Alan Watt often quoted Edward Bernays. I can’t remember what it was about now though, but it seems if I remember correctly like he was an insider?

“Lincoln freed the Slaves!”

Lincoln also tried to end the Fed or something to do with the money didn’t he? That is what I don’t understand. I have read things about him ending the monopoly money and at the same time doing things that were anti-liberty.

Do you understand the dichotomy?

“Have you read anything about Grant, Sherman, and The Indian Problem?”

So are you saying they practiced on the Indians? I do know about the infected blankest though. Small Pox, I think? I got that info from a movie at some time or another. But I don’t know if that has anything to do with Grant and Sherman. I don’t know much, Joe.

"Or did I already define it: Those that advocate Equitable Commerce."
“Is that the official definition from the source?
Can I quote that?”

Yes, you may quote that if you that is what you want the word to mean. I did say we should both define it together, but maybe I had already defined it to your liking? Why didn’t you just say so? Why didn’t you just say, “I don’t want to define it with you;” or “you already defined it you, dim wit, you;” or “I would prefer to define it myself without your input.” Why just silence on the matter? I ask questions a lot and I get silence. You could say, “none of your business;” or “that is off-topic;” or “I don’t want to talk about that;” or “let’s change the subject.” Instead it is silence so I get the idea…we are not going to discuss that, which is just with me. I can read between those lines enough.

"I wonder if humans can eat algae?"

I certainly wouldn’t mind eating algae. I get tired of trying to figure out what to cook next. That is why I asked you if you had a set menu. Jeff and I were married nearly 20 years before the boys came. I was used to a roast lasting so long we got tired of it. Now I am lucky to get 2 meals out of it. I am sure the day is coming that we will only get one out of it. I used to go into the kitchen, look in the cabinet, and create something good out of my head. Now, since I have had cancer/chemo, I go into the kitchen and look in the cabinet and I am blank. And the meals need prepared around the clock now! Oh well, I got used to increase in laundry, I suppose I will figure out how to feed 3 men.

“The whole "overpopulation" scare is a diversion, a false front, like Global Warming.”

Yes, it is disgusting.
“Hodges has already built such a farm in Africa. Political upheaval there shut much of it down in 2003. That's why he's determined to construct a showcase project in North America to demonstrate what's possible.”

Of course that might give too much power to those starving people over there. And of course we need our crop subsidies here in the US (I suppose that might tie in somewhere) after all we take power from the people, control the farmers, and give gifts to foreign nations in the tune of food. How dare anyone decide that they can possibly feed themselves using ocean water. After all we must solve global warming and ice melt, then of course we could just let the land flood and take care of some more of that over-population problem with flooding…Besides, it will be easier to control smaller masses of land and smaller masses of people. Nope, we must have political upheaval over there in Africa. We = Legal Criminals.

• It seems to me this man Hodges is doing exactly what God said to do as in “subdue it”: Genesis 1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful , and multiply , and replenish the earth, and subdue it : and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Hmm. Lindsey Williams…It seems like I heard him on Radio Liberty? He was an insider, or had insider info from an oil tycoon. Did you listen to that link you gave me? At the end of it he said he was a Baptist Minister used to being around honest people…Joe, that is what I am used to for the most part. Not perfect people, but good people who are honest. Not those out to be evil to gain the world. That is why I have such a hard time remembering the Big Picture as you explain it. My world is a microcosm of nice people and I guess I it is my tendency to think everyone is nice…even though when I get wind of the evil it scares me.

“Why put Willie Nelson in jail while torturing mass murderers are running amok at the Head of our Country? “

I didn’t know he was in jail.

“I should not have linked that video to someone who did not watch the movie or read the book.”

No problem, I just wanted to make sure I got the point.
“There is the free version. The Austrian Economists want to spread the word faster. The price for that is cost? What is the price for that book?”

Can you explain to me (probably again) why the Austrians are enemies since they are Gold Bugs. Ron Paul advocates Austrian economics and wants to do those 3 things End Fed & IRS and Bring home the troops. I still don’t have it straight in my mind what is wrong with gold as one of the competitive money supplies. Remember when you listened to Ron Paul’s hearing RE: competitive money. He also had 1 guy who was heads competitive community currencies. Can’t everyone just work together? Can’t gold just be one of many? Or do Gold Bugs say Gold only and nothing else?

Greene used the price of gold as the value of his paper currency.

I think I was wrong about Spooner as I went back and read because you questioned me. He said the value of his currency would be AS WELL KNOWN as the value of gold/silver, so I misread him.

Warren uses the cost of labor as the value of the paper however, the cost of labor was tied to the price of corn such as so it was convertible incase the payee did not want the labor hours of the payer but wanted corn instead.

It seems to me that all 3 of those political economists tied paper to something. Is that so that paper is tied to intrinsic value? Now if I remember right the Indians used beads? Were those beads tied to anything of intrinsic value? Do you know about Indian Trading Beads?

“Does your (or my) city archive outdated Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports, and if you are going to fight this fight are you prepared to win it?”

I do not know, but it seems to me if we would all fight the CFR issue locally all at the same time perhaps it would overwhelm the PTB. I think one of the problems is that we do not unify and actually do something directly in opposition to the Criminal Cabal. I signed on to the 2013 challenge but I am not creating a currency. Sure my currency is learning and spreading my learning, but that does not do anything when it comes time for me to fill my gas tank. I saw your post “Confusion as a rule” Great discussion BTW. Anyway you said:

“We The People disconnect ourselves from the Federal Government, as it should be in a Democratic Federated Republic, and our business returns to a more local sphere of influence, our State government,”

And I think part of that is that each one of us start doing that locally in some way or another. That is what Ron Paul encouraged: get power positions in local GOP establishments. Well, maybe “politics” isn’t for everyone, but maybe auditing financial reports is more along the lines of what some people would enjoy: Analytical work. To me that might stem the tide of local criminals such that they do not gain power locally and then those locals are no longer adding base strength to the pyramid. You know. What good does it do to chop the point off the top of a pyramid? The base structure is still there. The criminals do that themselves from what you have explained to me. They are constantly fighting amongst themselves for positions of power. What if we the people worked on the base such that the foundation was no longer strong enough to hold the structure? How close are the states to the top of the structure? And how easy would it be to take those over? I really think we (Friends of Liberty) must be active at the local level and those Friends of Liberty who are naturals at the game can move up the pyramid to the state and national level. I think that also is the beauty of having local currencies. If there are too many brush fires how can the Legal Criminals put them all out? IMO we (FoL) must be vigilant in local activity as we (FoL) who love peace never have been vigilant before.

How about if we work at the base and at the top at the same time? Would that not be effective?
__________________
"For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work , neither should he eat."
“Just work, or is it assumed that work produces more power out of less power?
That is not a trivial question.”

Paul made tents while he preached the Gospel so as to not be a burden to the people. No, not just digging holes to fill them back in. Work because there is plenty to be done, or perhaps in the JTK fashion 4 hours for you and 4 hours for me instead of 8 hours for me and 0 hours for you to do nothing. In saying “you” I am not talking you, I am saying whoever needs to do something. Whoever is eating while everyone else is working needs to start helping out.

“Your ancestors, those Founding Fathers?”

And who are your ancestors? I think my roots came over after the founding. Have you ever watched Davey Crockett or read about him? We got the old 50’s Disney edition for the boys. I don’t know whether it is exactly factual. But he went to Congress and fought the graft. Congress was trying to break contracts with the Indians and Crockett stood his ground and won to battle in Congress. We have to overwhelm with numbers, not just with a president, not just locally, but everywhere, which gets back to my “everyone run for office” at the same time idea. If the pool of good people out numbers the Legal Criminals, just maybe we might get somewhere, because even if we have competitive money and carry out those 3 points (End the Fed, IRS & Bring the Troops home), if we do not stay engaged, the Criminals are going to continue to do what they do by re-amassing the power.

“If you can't see that, that way, then I do not transfer my POWER to see the Big Picture to you. The puzzle is not in view if you do not see that the PROBLEM is that unit of $, because that is FRAUD…”

I do understand that. I don’t always remember it, but I do understand. I am sorry I cannot always remember. I need to take note of that. Yes, note, has been made. I agree logically that is the problem. End the Fed, End the IRS, Bring the Troops Home in order to release ourselves from the Federal Monopoly Money and Power. It is a numbers game though. What are the odds? We have a long shot at those odds in Tampa next week.
“You are an integral part of the Network of DEBT, the same as everyone else who uses that money.”

And so are you unless you have figured out how not to use it. Tell me. HOW. How do you want me to pay my light bill this month. How do you want me to fill my gas tank tomorrow. How do you want me to pay $1200 this month for medical insurance? Tell me. Scripture and Verse…HOW?

“If every victim to it knows their fate and at once every victim to it stops using it, and starts using accurate money instead, powerful money instead of FRAUD money (very destructively POWERFUL because it transfers power in hidden ways), then the Revolution is over, and we win, the former victims win.”

Oh, here’s the HOW…I have to wait for everyone else while I continue to pay for my demise. Gee, that is helping me a lot. Uh, Joe, are you waiting too? Yes, let us all wait together while we get weaker and weaker.

“Do you get a handsome divided each month for your investments in Dollar denominated funds?”

Uh, No, it is retirement. If I touch it I lose 30-50%. I have to wait until I am 65 or something like that. Let me see…how many more years. Hmmm 16 more years. I wonder if that money will be there in 16 years. I wonder how many times the fed will double the money in 16 years. Hmmm, how much did I pay in interest for a house. Oh gee, more than my retirement is worth. Good going. I am soooo smart.

“Will your income stream vanish if everyone else switches over to another money?”

I really don’t give a rip. I want Liberty whose value is more than any money. I want it for me and my posterity. I want it, but so far I am not doing anything to secure it except support Ron Paul.

My point with generosity was not for you to look at the Money Monopoly. It was to say, when we get competitive forms of money and people have liberty and if 90% of people are good, then we will treat each other with generosity no matter what our station in life is.

“While you look at hired voters to be the enemy, and while I look at forum members protecting their income stream by down voting my warnings here as the enemy, neither one of us focuses attention on Ending THE FED, THE IRS, and THE TROOPS slaughtering the innocent for money?”

Again…HOW? I’m waiting.

"...the constitution was written between the people and the consolidated government..."

NO SUCH THING

WELL I’M ONLY QUOTING THE LINK YOU GAVE ME: http://www.wfu.edu/~zulick/340/henry.html

“The question turns, sir, on that poor little thing—the expression, We, the people, instead of the states, of America. I need not take much pains to show that the principles of this system are extremely pernicious, impolitic, and dangerous. Is this a monarchy, like England—a compact between prince and people, with checks on the former to secure the liberty of the latter? Is this a confederacy, like Holland—an association of a number of independent states, each of which retains its individual sovereignty? It is not a democracy, wherein the people retain all their rights securely.” -Patrick Henry

“That type of thinking is still infecting your soul?”

Yes, because you told me to read it. You did not tell me to read Spooner. I suppose you thought perhaps I would have respect for Henry and not Spooner.

“You want me to tell you what to do, then listen to me, or rather listen to Lysander Spooner, call him any name you want, just remove him from the message and judge the message to be true or not true.”

It depends on what is is, not upon what Spooner has written he even says as much:

“Inasmuch as the Constitution was never signed, nor agreed to, by anybody, as a contract, and therefore never bound anybody, and is now binding upon nobody; and is, moreover, such an one as no people can ever hereafter be expected to consent to, except as they may be forced to do so at the point of the bayonet, it is perhaps of no importance what its true legal meaning, as a contract, is.”

Additionally, you said this on the Rothbard Thread which I do not want to go back to. I just want it to be buried unless you think otherwise. But you said:

“Here is where the John Birch folks really shine as they warn of a Constitutional Convention being a ploy to get rid of limits on The Constitution. They say, sure, there may be an effort by people who mean well, today, asking for a new Constitutional Convention, but beware that those people may be misdirected and they may actually be looking to overthrow, or usurp, limits on government.”

That is what scares me with all this anti-constitution talk. I understand that it was a con con. I understand that it can be played as a 4 string fiddle, but what are we supposed to do with the Birch folks warning. If we end the fed, end the irs, bring the troops home how long will that last? Other presidents have tried to end the fed. They end up dead. Do we end the constitution too?

“Focus attention on people who decide to be paid for doing nothing?
Is that an interesting focus of attention?”

I am sorry Joe, but we are working till July 15 to pay taxes while some people are not willing to help. Yes, that is a problem. It is a problem for me because my husband is putting food on their table without being asked. That is robbery. I could have had wic and state insurance, I did not seek it. Why, it is not up to the state to pay my way. It is up to my husband and me to pay for our food and insurance, not someone else.

Yes, I am going to focus on people who do not work because it is not my fault they will not get up and go look in the mirror or should I say the refrigerator to see who is paying their bills. While they vote against me. Anyway, I wouldn’t be surprised if votes are actually purchased in other ways as well.

The American Dream was to work hard and get ahead. The American nightmare is to work hard and get behind. Instead of us all working together only some of us are working, but we are all getting behind together. I am not budging on the topic.

Just what would happen to the wash woman in Equitable Commerce if she was too lazy to do the laundry? Sure the hardness of her labor exponentially increases her labor dollars, but if she does no labor she has no hardness and therefore has no dollars with which to exchange at the store for food or at the boarding house. She would soon find herself outside of the society or upon the mercies of someone within the society. She should not find herself on the mercies of anyone if she is too lazy to do the laundry. That is where she may need to attach herself to someone who can manager her time for her. However, if she is a hard worker and get’s both arms mangled in the wringer, well, IMO she should find mercy from those within the equitable society.

"b) Because for some strange reason some people are just lucky and get ahead while others are unlucky and stay behind"
YOU: The Dice is loaded, so where is this luck factor, exactly?

That is hog wash. Sure some people hold an ace. But that does not mean that other people are not in the right place at the right time and do the right thing and make some money doing it legally (and I am not talking able legal criminals). Perhaps you and I do not define wealth the same way. I am not talking about the ultra rich. I am just talking about people who do not have to worry from month to month. People who have enough to enjoy vacations etc. You know, those poor people who only make $250,000 a year and should not be included in a tax increase. I am not talking about million and billionaires. Maybe that is why we don’t hear each other the same.

"c) Because some people make money and turn around and make that money make money for them while other people spend every penny they get (me) and don’t have any money to make money for them."
YOU: That is interesting, how does that work?

Take your money that you earn with your time and buy something and resell it for double what you purchased it for. It is not rocket science. It takes time and an interest in doing it, but if you are successful say $20 an hour will turn into $40 an hour by investing the $20 in an item and selling that item for $40. You know, like my eBay business, except one has to pick a better market than I did. I took money that Jeff earned and doubled it. Then I took the money I doubled and doubled it repeatedly.

"d) .Because some people are born into positions of wealth."
YOU: Relative to what, a person starving to death faster than their children, so as to prolong their children's misery, wealthy realtive to that condition of "life"?

Not every person that has money is evil. You need to get over it already. Why do you think the Chick-A-Fillet owner was so vehemently hated? He is wealthy, but not owned. He closes on Sunday, can you imagine that? Supposedly one of the best days to have a fast food joint upon and he closes. His principles are not all about the money. There are good people with money. Like the guy Jeff works for. Very nice family. They are wealthy. I do not begrudge them, I am thankful for them.

"e) Because some people are born with more intelligence than others."

YOU: So they take the deal, because it is obviously less taxing?

No, they use their brains and make money by thinking. By solving problems. Why do you think you were able to be a High Paid Laborer? You were not stupid. You worked hard, used your head, and applied yourself. If you could not use your head, you might have been digging ditches with a manual shovel somewhere. Not that that is bad. I am not cutting that down. I am just saying you made more than a manual ditch digger because you had the intelligence and ability and drive to operate heavy equipment and you were not lazy about it from what you say. If I were an employer I would want your skill because you applied them all day as opposed to sloughing off. You were in high demand because of your ability and your drive.

"f) Because some people are more intelligent but fail to use that gift and squander it, while others who are hard-workers get ahead."

YOU: I worked for 25 years, hard labor, not always, but relatively speaking my labor showed up in callouses, worn out joints, scars, emergency trips to the clinic, suffering. I got ahead of the tax man, just barely. Had I figured out the, what is the acceptable word, the false front for tax evasion, you know, come on, you are not unintelligent, the word is a term, the words are loop holes, whispered, loop holes, and just how much farther ahead could I be now?
How much farther ahead could I be had I not squandered my intelligence those 25 years of hard labor, that I would not trade for anything, since that is my life, that is how I traveled while I walk the Earth and stand for LIFE?
How is this non-squandering of intelligence measured, please?

I am not talking about you squandering intelligence. I am talking about person A who is intelligent but does nothing and person B who may not be quite as smart but works hard. In the end B is going to be the winner because A did not apply himself.

“My way of defining equity is to negotiate right from wrong among any number of people sharing that goal honestly and effectively.”

Who is to say what is right and what is wrong? That is my question. My right is not your right. My wrong is not your wrong. Right and wrong seem to be ambiguous. So who is going to make the rules that are equitous? (I think that might be another new word, if you like it you can have it.)

“If you borrow my definition then that may be an example of equity as you agree to find the right definition of that word. Equity is an equitable word if we negotiate the meaning of that word equitably. “

You see, we cannot even agree with right and wrong concerning how to use the word equity. I can’t even give you the word equitablist, which is right in my eyes, but not in yours. For some reason you think that since I invented it I cannot give it away. It is my invention, I give it to you. That is equitable to me. However it may not be “fair” in your eyes. But it is “just” in my eyes because I made the word so I can do what I want to with it. It was mine to give. I would not have made up that word if I had not been working on your reply to me. You were the catalyst, so why are you not due the word? I would never in my life have even used the word equity. That is a word you use. That is a word I am familiar with now. So to me the invention of equitablist is equitably due to you so it is my equitous decision as the inventor that it is equitable to give the word to you.

“What is a euphemism?
A euphemism is a word that is invented to cover up the real word that works best to convey the accurate meaning.
How about examples of Euphemisms?”

Justice equals fairness
http://www.charactercouncil.org/resources/biblicalstudies/Ju...
“Ve have veys of defining that word too.”

I laugh every time I read that line…Yesterday, today, a couple of times today, I bet if I read it again I will laugh, yep. I think I need to cut it out and paste it to my mirror so when I look to see who is there at least I will be laughing.
ME: "Iniquitous is not the opposite of equity."
:OHHHHHH BOOOYYYYYYY
Now I am on the edge of my seat, seriously, because here is where I can learn to be more accurate when employing English language effectively. I do not like using the wrong words when I try desperately to convey accurate meaning with English.”

As you should be. Well you have been talking to a dim wit for months now who has just discovered that you are right I am wrong. I checked the dictionary of all things. You wouldn’t think I would dare go to that forsaken book, but I still do.

http://www.1828-dictionary.com/d/search/word,equitable
EQ'UITABLE, n. [L. oequitas, from oequus, equal.]
1. Equal in regard to the rights of persons; distributing equal justice; giving each his due; assigning to one or more what law or justice demands; just; impartial. The judge does justice by an equitable decision. The court will make an equitable distribution of the estate.
2. Having the disposition to do justice, or doing justice; impartial; as an equitable judge.
3. Held or exercised in equity, or with chancery powers; as the equitable jurisdiction of a court.

http://www.1828-dictionary.com/d/search/word,iniquitous
1828 Definition
INIQ'UITOUS, a. [See Iniquity.] Unjust; wicked; as an iniquitous bargain; an iniquitous proceeding. [It is applied to things rather than to persons, but may be applied to persons.]
1913 Definition
Iniquitous (iniquitous)
a. (?)
In*iq"ui*tous
[From Iniquity.]
1. Characterized by iniquity; unjust; wicked; as, an iniquitous bargain; an iniquitous proceeding.
Demagogues . . . bribed to this iniquitous service. Burke.
Syn. -- Wicked; wrong; unjust; unrighteous; nefarious; criminal. -- Iniquitous, Wicked, Nefarious. Wicked is the generic term. Iniquitous is stronger, denoting a violation of the rights of others, usually by fraud or circumvention. Nefarious is still stronger, implying a breach of the most sacred obligations, and points more directly to the intrinsic badness of the deed.

And guess what…chicken butt

http://www.1828-dictionary.com/d/search/word,inequity
1828 Definition
A form of this word [inequity] is NOT found in the 1828 dictionary.

1913 Definition
THIS exact word [inequity] is NOT found in the 1913 dictionary.

But some time during the last century the word was created:
in•eq•ui•ty
noun, plural in•eq•ui•ties for 2.
1. lack of equity; unfairness; favoritism or bias.
2. an unfair circumstance or proceeding.

“I don't know how anyone can accurately communicate to anyone else with this English stuff, it is like using a butter knife to eat a tough steak. Hack, hack, hack, and the steak is still whole.”

Laughing again.
______________________
ME: "Just because someone has a so called better position in life does not mean that they got it by evil means."
“OK, here is where I look left, around behind me, I look right, again look around behind me, I'm looking for whomever you are speaking to with that version of why equity is not the opposite of iniquity.
So you can read Equitable Commerce by Josiah Warren and you then converse with me in those words?”

I guess. I don’t know. Are you saying everyone is supposed to be equal? I don’t know Joe, just say it. Don’t make me read Equitable Commerce and understand what you understand because I don’t, or I missed it somewhere. Help me.

"I believe the system would become an involuntary one like forced socialism or forced communism."
OK, I get it, right.
“Never forced religion, when talking to me, for some reason.
Never forced conservatism. Me gain, I get it.
Never forced capitalism, because it is me on the other end of this lesson.
Never forced equity, because that has nothing to do with iniquity?”

I am not forcing or advocating the force of anything. I did not mean to make you feel like I was forcing anything. I am not trying to force anything I don’t think. I thought we were having Equitable Discussion.

The way I understand things is that each person is an individual with individual choices, talents, and paths in life. They are not all going to be equal. It is up to the individual. While all men are created as equals, all men do not act equally when taking their life and using it?

You have been thinking of these things longer than I have. You have studied them, you have deep grooves filled with knowledge of how these things work.

I have just been living in the system. My grooves are filled with that living and that system.

I think the thing I understand the most is that there are voluntary and involuntary forms of economic systems. I still do not understand how all of those systems work.

“I just fell off the tuna boat, plop, and here I am to be the object of some nebulous Man of Straw play acting?”

Laughing again. I hope not at your expense, but for some reason I think it is so funny when you deride me. The things I say to you are from an honest heart trying to understand.

“What am I supposed to say now?
I am a socialist!
I am a communist!
Why don't you just shoot me and get it over with sooner?”

Joe, I am confused.

I thought you were an equitablist.

...

Angels and Devils

The power struggle goes on in my life all the time so when this discussion ends the power struggle keeps going, so as far as I am concerned, enough will be said in my head when I am dead and then I don't know what happens next. I am confident in knowing that I will find out soon enough.

Sometimes is seems like it is not soon enough, and something is seems like it will be way too soon.

"Why do the criminals allow Iceland to resist? Is the value of that commonwealth not high enough with which to be concerned?"

When I try to put myself in the shoes of the Despots, with a lot of help, such as reading The Prince by Machiavelli, or reading 1984, or those studies on Wall Street by Anthony Sutton mapping out the financing of F.D.R, Hitler, and Stalin all at once, then I begin to sit down in their seat at the chess board and realize what they are having to do to keep their power.

I get the idea that they know better than to suggest that their job is something for nothing, as their job is far from something for nothing, as their work load is immense. They invent the lie, the carrot, of offering something for nothing when they try to incorporate the competition into their Business Psycho.

The Icelandic Commonwealth or Holland or Switzerland or all three can be compared to that time period between 1776 and 1788 in America.

If you had to crush only one and not two competitors, which would you pick?

1.
Iceland
2.
Holland
3.
Switzerland
4.
America (while it is weakest, and before it can become as strong as Switzerland and then much stronger)?

Criminals certainly must, absolutely must, pick the fights they can win, and win those fights. They most certainly will employ their scarce power in the work of gaining more power from weak people, but they must also employ their scarce power defending against strong opposition.

If they fail in either case, fail in gaining power on the backs of the weak, and thereby not have enough power to defend against powerful opposition, they are then demoted to a mid level position in that involuntary structure.

You appear to be incapable of understanding the difference between an involuntary and a voluntary association so that to me appears to me to be the area that you are weakest, and therefore most vulnerable to exploitation by stronger people.

I don't think that there is a whole lot of difference between you and I as far as that is concerned, we are all weaker than someone, we are all, for now, subjected to the power of evil with each penny flowing from producers to Legal Criminals, so the specific reasons, working in our minds, as to why that continues is somewhat academic, unless there is power in knowing those specific reasons well enough to then find a way out.

You find a way out with this deal, I suppose, made with God and Jesus, but the pennies still flow?

I find a way out with concerted effort to evade making money and therefore I don't "qualify" as a target for exploitation, but the pennies still flow, I have to eat, so I do chores, and chores lead to money transfers, and the ONE LEGAL MONEY is used, and I know how that works, pennies of power flow to the Legal Criminals.

The details of my "contributions" pale in comparison to the piles of bodies piling up.

Some people are keeping score:

http://www.amazon.com/Death-Government-R-J-Rummel/dp/1560009276

You and I can fail to see each others viewpoints, forever, but the God I know does not like those numbers, and I know that many of those screams of torture and many of those murder victims were paid for on my account as my pennies flow to the Legal Criminals residing in houses on Earth through The FED, The IRS, and their misguided Troops.

"Maybe the idea there is to go where residual value of the land is not great enough to be raided by the Legal Criminals?"

America is a prize, a very big prize, because there is so much natural power added to the exploited man (woman) power, whereby there is no place to run and no place to hide on Earth eventually, if this Long Black Train remains fueled by Americans.

If Americans get off that train, then Liberty may yet win.

America is very powerful.

Why do you think so much power is now being used to make America so weak?

They are not so concerned about Switzerland and that may also be a good vacation hideaway, while World Wars blaze all around it century after century.

Who knows?

I'm guessing.

"Also perhaps a Parthian Arrow for those that do not what to hear about the problem?"

That is common practice among the cowards, a mortal enemy would do no such thing, that is too much of a confession of weakness to be anything other than the squeals of pathetic minions.

They see their mortal enemy, facts, truth, honesty, logic, reason, common sense, and it is like water on the Wicked Witch of the West (www) or sunlight to a vampire (or roaches and rats) and so the door has to be slammed shut, and to spite their face they cut off their noses, to massage their egos with one more feeble squeak?

Did I miss the point?

"It gives those that would be on the side of Liberty a reason to stay apart from Liberty as well as dividing Friends of Liberty."

You are speaking of un-reason not reason.

It is not reasonable for someone to actually think that a conspiracy theory is cause for vehement hatred and vituperation aimed at the "conspiracy theorist". What is the actual object of their scorn?

My guess is the last traces of moral conscience is what they hate, and so they want to get rid of it, and thereby be "FREE"! At last. Thinking now it seems to me that such un-reason may also drive this "belief" in nothingness after physical death. I don't know, I'm guessing.

They hate that part of themselves that still keeps them up at night so the convenient excuse is handed to them, and they take out their inner hatred outwardly. This may be a part of the whole lie, a method of training, to misdirect focus of attention away from the actual people who are responsible and place that focus of attention upon the victims themselves.

I've heard this from people who commit crimes, they say that the victims deserve what they get, the victims ask for it, the victims are to blame.

This is typical, but it is all a lie, and it seems to me that it is only something done by people who are possessed of a weak, and weakening, moral spirit, or conscience.

Why do those people insist upon being tortured? That is something the torturer may be saying to him (or her) self.

Why do those people insist upon going to those weddings and funerals when they know that they will be droned to death - by us?

Why do those people insist upon congregating in that church when they know that they will be shot at from helicopters, burned to death, and crushed under tank tracks? They are killing themselves.

Why do they not leave that church when we tell them to leave, and why do they make us shoot them when they leave that church?

All that has to do with ego massaging, excuse, rationalization, duplicity, transference, and it is all pathology, it is that which is sick, that which is diseased, and the disease of deception and the evil twin known as aggressive violence combine, they are one and the same thing, it is called evil.

English is merely symbols.

Is is.

Why would is ever depend upon what is is?

As a very well paid liar may ask: and what can you trust to be the answer provided by the same well paid liar?

The victims made me do it?

God made me do it?

Anything but me.

The gun did it.

Son of Sam?

Why do they do it twice, if they were sorry about it the first time?

Three times?

100 times?

Where is the next funeral, we have a whole lot of drones left in the warehouse?

__________________________________
"Sinful Messiah"

What do those words mean?
__________________________________

http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=waco_tribune...

I have a voice tape of the person formerly known as Vernon Howell while that person was being tortured, along with a whole lot of other people, in a Church in Texas.

I was curious as to what the person had to say, from inside that situation. I listened to the tape. I think his basic message was to distrust false prophets. He may have done better following his own advice?

I have problems. My computer stops working right. I am part of a process where we provide the means by which we suffer some. What is it like being tortured and burned to death last, while the loved ones are having their heads chopped off and worse?

"People went to Canada to get away from the draft. They ran, they did not stay and stand for their Liberty. So the approach here seems different unless Friends of Liberty hide."

You may remember those words all to well.

I've already schooled my son, as best I could, concerning any effort by anyone to kidnap him and force him to torture and murder innocent people, so Canada may be a very good place to go if he is fortunate enough to stay one step ahead of the kidnapers (with or without badges).

You can deal with whatever comes your way, as you see fit.

"• Proverbs 22:3 A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on , and are punished ."

Yea, and I'm a coward, I think I've said that, so when in school, at age 10, I would hide out this way or that way, since the whole punishment routine appeared to me to be somewhat less than valid.

Why not march faster off a cliff when told to do so?

"Proverbs 28:28 When the wicked rise , men hide themselves: but when they perish , the righteous increase ."

If the subject being discussed is anything then any word can apply. If the subject is having a piece of paper arrive in the mail that orders me, or my son, or my daughter for that matter, to show up at the place were cannon fodder is being hammered into cannon fodder, to then be used for more torture and mass murder, then that is the subject. We can discuss voluntary participation?

When push comes to shove you will do what is right, I trust, and then costs may or may not be passed on to someone else, I can't know.

This makes a lot of sense, now that I think about it.

If there is no reluctance at all to paying taxes then offering up your children to the tax man is just as good.

On that same theme, those who don't pay taxes are bad, sure, and those who don't send their children off to be "all they can be" are as bad or even worse.

Tax Evaders!

Draft Dodgers!

Where is my rope?

I'm liking this position I am in, my cowardice, and my failure to take this deal, even more. You could say that I am seeing the light?

Do I get this right?

God, according to you, and Jesus, and all that scripture commands His children to pay their fair share of taxes, including their children when called up to "duty" for honor and country and The FED, IRS, Goldman Sachs, and Halliburton?

I may have to write a few more measures in my song about the New Marching Christian Solders. I think I've had things very wrong about what is right and what is wrong according to God.

My God, silly me, prefers that I avoid torturing and mass murdering innocent people. Damn me.

How could I be so wrong?

"I am not sure if that means Friends of Liberty should hide or stand."

There I go assuming to know anything about the meaning of scripture.

I could erase the outburst, but it is what it is, so I'll leave it flopping their on the discussion table, like a fish out of water.

A contrast:

When Friends of Liberty can act as one in defense against any power that will destroy Liberty then their combined defensive power (voluntary combination) will either be powerful enough to deter any further destruction or there will be violence.

Is it wrong to work toward the non-violent goal? How can The Friends of Liberty ever gain enough power to reach the non-violent goal if our power flows to our enemies in the form of purchasing power, votes, men, women, and children?

Is there any room in scripture for the concept of a tactical retreat, regrouping, and efficient, productive, and economic, defensive strategies that can win non-violently?

If not then why not just go jump off a cliff?

Please forgive the outburst driven by my ignorance and misunderstanding of what you were attempting to communicate. I too am confused and I too fall victim to my own misreading of basic English.

"And may have found a way of doing it with the delegates and unseating individuals with political power within the GOP"

I spoke to my brother, my mother, and my aunt over at my mother's house last night. They heard what I had to say, because they see the truth in it. We, as a people, are waking up to the facts in many ways. How will those thoughts turn into actions now that the cat is out of the bag concerning the "authorities" and what they have been doing with our money?

Here is where you don't have my viewpoint, which spans 3 decades of measuring the score. If numbers help then I can offer a guess as to a ratio of awareness 30 years ago compared to today.

30 years ago the number of people questioning The FED, The IRS, or what those Troops were doing with our Liberty, was roughly 10 percent by my estimate. Today my estimate is still less that 50 percent. That is an increase of almost 40% in 30 years, but the thing that is alarming, or significant, has to do with the growth of that percentage starting out very slow and then growing faster as time progresses up to today.

If enough of us can look around and see our power, today, then none of us need move to Canada, or buy guns, or buy bullets, or send our children off to any dangerous places, merely by standing up and being counted as a Friend of Liberty, but, seriously, we are not Friends of Liberty if we pay criminals to injure us, pay with pennies, dimes, or human lives.

"Let go of that golden banana, already."

When I wrote of people attacking me personally I meant specific people resorting to personal attacks along the lines of claims that they can't understand a word that I write, therefore, logically, I am too stupid to employ English coherently. The concept of shooting the messenger, to avoid the message, goes right past any hope of "educating", since the tactic confesses prior knowledge.

The attacker who resorts to personal attacks, shooting the messenger, knows enough of the actual content of the message to inspire an attack upon the messenger.

Does that make sense?

For example, please, I made a mistake earlier in this giant wall of text, and my outburst was aiming at a message, not a messenger, I attack this message that appears to claim that running to Canada to avoid the Draft is the wrong thing to do, when I know it to be the right thing to do, absent a better option, if faced with kidnapping and forced servitude in the work of torture and mass murder for profit. Did I attack you personally?

Did you feel personally attacked?

If so, then my error was compounded. I resorted to the old tactic of attacking the messenger? See?

Perhaps there is more to scripture than I can yet see.

"Let go of that golden banana, already."

At least, please, don't force me into having no choice but to use gold as money.

"Lincoln also tried to end the Fed or something to do with the money didn’t he?"

That to me speaks of the power struggle among the Legal Criminals, why would anyone ever conclude that criminals get along with each other like best friends, all the time? That does not compute in my estimate, they are at each others throats, and any "honor among thieves", it seems to me, is a foreign concept to someone chained down with even a meager sense of moral conscience.

Lincoln wanted that War, and I think the story was that he could have his war and pay interest on money borrowed or he could sign an order and print up his own greenbacks, pay for the war, and not have to pay interest to any "investors".

That decision may have been analogous to him going into a tattoo parlor and having a bulls eye inked onto his forehead.

A similar story concerns Andrew Jackson, a well known solver of the Indian Problem in his days before becoming President, and then Andrew "Old Hickory" Jackson became president and he Killed the Bank. That would be a case of a power struggle between a socialist, or "for the greater good" person, being a benevolent dictator, and saving everyone from the mean and nasty fascist Central Bankers, but the terms get all mixed up, on purpose. It turns out that a hit was placed on Old Hickory, the same Lone Gunman routine, like a broken record, serial Lone Gunmen, an army of them, well, in this case the Lone Gunman had two guns and both guns misfired.

Some might say that God was looking out for Old Hickory.

The Central Bank was The Second Bank of the United States.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/12/07/278792/-I-killed-th...

http://www.thedaily.com/page/2012/01/14/011412-opinions-hist...

They don't have to be members of the same club to be all doing the same things: deceit, threats of violence, and violence in defense of their Legal Crimes, such as a Central Bank, which is fraud, or defense of an involuntary tax, which is extortion, they, Legal Criminals, are connected by the same thoughts and the same deeds, they can be working together, temporarily, or they can be killing each other, which is only my business when I have to pay the bills for all that nonsense, or, if God's message means anything, as far as I can tell, then we can't just turn out heads while they torture and mass murder innocent people, such as the people tortured and murdered in Waco Texas, or now in Iraq, at funerals and weddings and such, where uninvited Drones are crashing the party.

"Do you understand the dichotomy?"

I'm off to the dictionary.

"division into two parts, kinds, etc.; subdivision into halves or pairs."

_____________________________
Lincoln also tried to end the Fed or something to do with the money didn’t he? That is what I don’t understand. I have read things about him ending the monopoly money and at the same time doing things that were anti-liberty.

Do you understand the dichotomy?
_____________________________

Yes, Anti-Liberty stuff included an Aggressive War for Profit, invading the new Southern Confederacy under some nebulous claim of The Union being Indivisible. It did divide. The Southern States opted out of the Consolidated Government, but this was all predictable from way back in 1788 with The Dirty Compromise. The South Legal Criminals would not have agreed to throw out the Democratic Federated Republic under The Articles of Confederation if the North Legal Criminals (Hamilton and the Central Banker club of Nationalists hiding behind a false front of Federalism) didn't promise to count the Black Slaves as Three Fifths of a Human Being each, and to promise to enforce the fugitive slave laws, which is seriously funny because the Northern Criminals actually wanted the fugitive slaves laws enforced so that they could kidnap any slaves who may be running away from a National Tax, such as The Whiskey Tax, and therefore that part of the deal was no concession on the part of the Northern Legal Criminals. The Southern Legal Criminals conceded powers having to do with tax liabilities and in particular the taxes imposed through treaties, excise or duties, or import/export taxes; which are tools used by Monopolists to end competition.

Again, the South Legal Criminals lost in that Dirty Compromise, they set-up their own defeat. Lincoln was the janitor, clean up on Isle 3.

But Lincoln was an errant errand boy, like the Kennedy boys, like Saddam Husein, and like Osama bin Laden, like Hitler, like Stalin, they don't do exactly as they are told, but that is not a surprise.

Who would be surprised: the dupes?

So the dichotomy is Lincoln appearing to be freeing the slaves and ushering in a new Legal Monopoly Bank Issue of Greenbacks, but it is all false front stuff, he was a Legal Criminal hired by The Rail Road Interests, during the growth of Monopolization of every POWER that can be Monopolized into ONE LEGAL CRIME POWER.

Follow the money. Where did the Rail Road Business people get their exclusive licenses to take over all that territory from sea to shining sea?

You scratch my back and I'll scratch your back until someone decides to kill you off because you didn't follow the rules?

What rules?

Might makes right.

There is only one rule, it seems.

One rule is Monopoly Power, no dichotomy, it is the same broken record.

I call it Legal Crime. If it were not Legal then there would be a whole lot of illegal criminals, not one group, the most mighty, the ONE group that takes over the power of Law.

What is Law?

Who does the defining and how do they define what they define as being law?

Might makes right.

You and what army says so?

Dictatorial Law is Monopoly Law, it is all the same thing, Might makes Right.

It is a self contained contradiction, a lie, because God's law makes right, not the might of a person or a group of people forcing their might upon weaker people.

Might makes right is a lie, it is fraud, and not just fraud because mere liars can be ignored, they must resort to threats of violence, as a part of their might, added to their lies, and then they have to make good (good?) on their threats, there must be violence, there is no other way to be a criminal, that is how a criminal defines the meaning of crime.

How do all the criminals organize into one single criminal POWER?

Legal Crime.

Might makes right (a lie)

It is Monopoly, one thing, it does not deviate, it does not adapt, it does not produce, it consumes, it destroys, it lies, it tortures, and it isn't a thing unto itself, it is a list of names, people who think those criminal thoughts, and it is the sum total of all those actions perpetrated by those criminals upon their victims, and they, the criminals, call what they do legal, while they claim, simultaneously, that anyone else doing what they do, exactly, are criminals.

It is a lie.

That is the base principle.

It is a lie.

The Deceiver has been very busy.

"So are you saying they practiced on the Indians?"

I may have that mixed up, but I think that Grant and Sherman became very good at mass killing during the Abomination called The Civil War and then they were set loose in the effort to solve The Indian Problem. I think Jackson was a star performer in solving The Indian Problem before Grant and Sherman.

I am reminded now, and again, of the words written in my copy of The Lost State of Franklin whereby there was mention of white people dressed up as Indians who were then known to be slaughtering Settlers so as to blame those atrocities on Indians who happened to be residing on prime Real Estate.

What to do about those Indians?

The Final Solution was not invented by The Nazis.

"Why just silence on the matter?"

In order of actual history, accurate history, it is recorded that you defined the term first. I have failed to publish words on the matter in time.

So much time, so few things to do.

"I go into the kitchen and look in the cabinet and I am blank."

I can make many things I like to eat, few things anyone else will eat.

"My world is a microcosm of nice people and I guess I it is my tendency to think everyone is nice…even though when I get wind of the evil it scares me."

Someone has to produce things worth stealing, and can you imagine how much actual production can be produced if each producer is at each others throat, or only working to keep from being whipped? Say goodby to invention, say goodby to adaptation, say goodby to competition that forces quality up and cost down, if everyone turns into that which we supposedly abhor, our species ends, so there has to be good people, if there are no good people, logically, there can't be more people, if there were only bad people, rationally, there would be fewer, and fewer, and fewer people, as the number of good people (productive people) are eaten.

"I didn’t know he was in jail."

He didn't pay enough Federal Income Tax, according to the story, and therefore a Tax Evader, and therefore there is a generally accepted demand for his head, on a silver platter, for that most egregious of crimes.

"Can you explain to me (probably again) why the Austrians are enemies since they are Gold Bugs."

This to me is a familiar confusion. This is like saying the same question with different terms that identify different people such as:

"Can you explain to me why the Christians are enemies since they are Religious?"

No, I can't, but I can report how there are at least two groups who use the same names.

Roughly half of the number of them (fill in the blank with Christian or Austrian or Socialist or Capitalist) are those who support a more voluntary association, as voluntary as is human possible, and roughly the other half support a less voluntary association or that have lends moral and material support to keep a dictatorial association dictatorial, and there are extremes that go toward a more voluntary or more involuntary association depending upon what the actual individual person thinks and does in any specific case.

One honest dictator being the "best" dictator mankind has ever seen is entirely different when compared to a whole lot of dictators working to out do each other for the top spot.

When I measure someone being a dictator, even if it is myself slipping that way, I like to fully disclose those observations as I call them, as I see them.

Hey, look, that looks like a dictator, smells like one too, care to taste it?

Do you know of anyone claiming to be a Christian whereby that specific person who calls himself a Christian is currently lending moral and material support for willful torture and willful mass murder and does that mean that all Christians are enemies?

Specifically concerning Gold Bugs, which may include Austrian Gold Bugs, there may be some who want to gain the power of law to make Gold the only lawful money and then their immense stash of Gold can be made much more powerful since the power of law can then be used to make Gold very scarce, and then abundant, and then scarce, and then abundant, according to their power to control that supply of that one legal money monopoly power, and the business cycle remains in POWER without skipping a beat, and they may call themselves Austrians, and they may parrot the same Free Market dogma parroted by other Austrians, and once in POWER they may do the opposite things that they said they would do back when they called themselves Austrians, once in POWER their true color shows.

"I still don’t have it straight in my mind what is wrong with gold as one of the competitive money supplies."

Gold as a medium of storing purchasing power is competitive, so it will remain a medium of storing purchasing power with, or without, any laws that demand Gold to be a medium of storing purchasing power.

Gold as currency is expensive if crime is currently abundant, since carrying Gold may be very risky, likely to attract criminals, and cause the Gold toting person to be in need of toting defensive measures.

If you are going to send the kids to the store to pick up something and you have a choice to send them with a check having the store named on the check with the amount already filled out, and on the other hand, you can send the kids to the store with a handful of gold, which do you think would be the better choice, the higher quality choice, and the lower cost choice?

Robbers have a harder time spending the check so they are less likely to rob the kids toting a check while, at the same time, the criminal may find more profitability in targeting the gold toting kids since gold is launderable.

"Can’t gold just be one of many? Or do Gold Bugs say Gold only and nothing else?"

I think that there may be wisdom in designating a money, such as Gold, to be the medium of exchange between States who pay into (as in a membership fee) a Federation or Confederation, so as to limit the expenses involved in negotiating which way a State will pay dues, and furthermore the Federal costs would thereby be limited by that finite supply of that specific medium of exchange.

Why not, however, allow a new State into the Federation, saying yes if a new State wants to join the Voluntary Union, where this new State could be similar to Alaska and Alaska people wanted to pay dues in Oil instead of Gold?

New State, same Voluntary Union, a deal is made, welcome aboard, Alaska can pay dues in Oil, not Gold, and thereby Alaska is Unionized.

Voluntarily.

Who fixes the price of Oil higher or lower than Gold in peacetime?

The Federal Government?

Actual people?

If The Federal Government has only one job, and do that job well or The Federal Government does not get any more chores to do, and if that ONE and ONLY job is ordered by States, do this please, and if you can do this well, we may give you another chore, what would that Job be?

One job.

Only one job.

Do that, and we will pay you for doing that job, fail to do that, and the order for more of the same is not issued.

Defense against attack by a large criminal aggressive army of war for profit?

How about that job?

Who is looking to buy some Defense Against Attack by a Large Criminal Aggressive Army of War for Profit?

Guess what?

The enemy isn't at the gate. The British are no longer on their way by land or sea.

The enemy is in the mirror.

If States 1 through 50 say, sure, I'm buying into that Defense Against Aggressive Attack by Very Large Groups of Organized War Mongers, because our small State, such as Texas, or Alaska, is too small to defend itself, then how do I pay my dues?

I want that, where do I sign, and what is my fair share?

Is Gold more valuable that Oil during defensive war?

Tanks don't run on gold, and what if Saudi Arabia is attacking?

Please sir may we have some more Oil, here is some Gold?

Saudi Arabia says, we will get your Gold, because we have the oil, fool, and lick my boots while you are down there grovelling.

Missed a spot, ohhhhh, too bad, and now your teeth are falling out of your mouth and you can't gather them up with your broken fingers, and you can't scamper off fast enough on your broken legs, poor, poor, poor, weak, minions.

Gold is launderable, so some of the enemy may trade Oil for Gold during war, because they can get away with aiding and abetting the enemy during war?

Fools are led to believe that wars are inevitable because all men are bad and therefore all bad men have to choose me as the least bad among us.

Dictator A or B?

You have no other choice fool.

What would you, or anyone, say if it was found out that all the Gold in Fort Knox was sent to China so that China could invade American and win World War III?

Do the Chinese even have to get their hands dirty?

Will it even be actual Chinese people pulling the Chinese World Banking Monopoly Strings?

Nonsense, conspiracy theorist, tax evading, draft dodger?

Where is my rope?

Clean up on isle 3, where is that button that stabs Josf in the back? If looks (or negative votes) could kill, I'd be dead.

Thank God for small miracles?

"Warren uses the cost of labor as the value of the paper however, the cost of labor was tied to the price of corn such as so it was convertible incase the payee did not want the labor hours of the payer but wanted corn instead."

Warren was not a theorist, by the way, his hypothesis was proven in actual practice. The concept has to do with accurate accounting concerning whatever some ONE might produce in the way of CREDIT and in any case of DISCREDIT the producer pays all costs accountable to the DISCREDITED individual.

You can see this as a scale too.

On one end of the scale there is only one person who decides how much money exists (legally), call that a Central Banker, and if that Central Banker produces DISCREDIT, who pays?

On the other end of the scale is everyone having the power to create their own Credit or Discredit and each person is held accountable for either product.

Each person gives themselves license to fully disclose their capacity to commit fraud or not, and each other person gives themselves license to judge the product of credit on the face value of it according to their own sense of right and wrong, even if they ask God and Jesus for help in any matters of judging right from wrong.

"It seems to me that all 3 of those political economists tied paper to something. Is that so that paper is tied to intrinsic value? Now if I remember right the Indians used beads? Were those beads tied to anything of intrinsic value? Do you know about Indian Trading Beads?"

In order to minimize the costs of negotiating a trade there is a huge advantage in having a STANDARD OF VALUE by which traders can measure the value of their things that they want to trade and measure against things of value traded by other people, this is called an Exchange Rate. This is very odd now, to even consider such things, since a computer program can calculate relative value instantly and do so by polling massive amounts of current trading information.

I think it is important to step back at this point and realize that there are two worlds operating and it may be too easy to confuse the two as if there is one.

There is the Fraudulent Legal Crime world denominated in the current World Reserve Currency and there is the Black Market world where people figure out how to launder their transactions in the effort to disconnect from that Fraudulent Legal Crime world. It is easy to confuse the two because of the demand for Federal Income Tax, and other enforced payments enforced by the same people who sell Federal Reserve Products called Dollars.

We locals are forced to work for dollar so as to pay Federal Income Tax to the IRS.

Foreigners are forced to work for dollars so as to pay excise taxes, duties, or until recently, buy Oil.

You may not have taken the time to see The History of Oil, or the Series called The Money Masters. I highly recommend both:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5267640865741878159

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9wYu1SR1Wk

In The History of Oil you can probably see that there are false ideas concerning overpopulation added to the accurate report, but it may be a good idea to employ the accurate reporting and discard the falsehoods, and the presentation is entertaining.

Money Masters is very informative, and again there are points worth challenging, in particular, to me, there is a failure to identify the wrong of involuntary associations.

"I signed on to the 2013 challenge but I am not creating a currency."

I think you are wrong headed in that viewpoint. You are creating a currency, and the most valuable currency worthy of the most credit, so the idea is to import that, or offer that example, if no one buys what you offer, that is the limit of what you can morally do, and therefore the ball is now in the court of your fellow man (woman) and God.

You can't get away from Dollars because there is Federal Income Tax.

Again:

1.
End the FED
2.
End the IRS
3.
Bring the Troops Home

That is currency right there, it is text, but there is much being offered, much to sell, and why isn't anyone buying it?

Why are too few people buying that currency?

They can't, for example, throw up their hands and say there is no way to solve this problem of Legal Crime, or whatever words they choose to label the major problem facing mankind, they can go ahead and call it Global Warming, or Economic Collapse, but in every case it is the same solution, since it is the same few people who are causing these problems, which are not problems to them, they see what they do as a way of life.

Legal Crime pays very well for some, but their actual accounts are "not for public consumption".

Victims of Legal Crime, on the other hand, may be fooled into a false belief that they too, these many victims, are Playing the Monopoly Game too, not yet knowing that the Banker is cooking the books. The victims know something is wrong, they have been informed that something is wrong, but they are ordered to do nothing but argue about it - for the sake of arguing.

The victims can't argue (rationally) against that currency (End the FED, End the IRS, Brings the Troops Home IS CURRENCY), it is impossible to argue against that offering of "things to do", they would have to resort to deceit to "argue" against those "things to do", then they would have to resort to threats of violence when deceit does not work in the effort to "argue" against Ending the FED to solve our woes and ending The IRS to solve our problems and bringing the Troops Home to defend our liberties, and then they would have to resort to violence to "argue" against that currency, those methods of solving these problems are inarguable, they are self-evident facts, so that confesses something when so called victims resort to those methods to "argue" or when the so called victims are silent in the face of dire warnings followed by actionable goals that will bring about remedy.

If they are not buying that currency it is because they ARE THE PROBLEM.

Not you. You are part of the solution. You produce valuable currency.

"I signed on to the 2013 challenge but I am not creating a currency."

You not only look for reasonable actionable solutions you question the most competitive ones so as to raise the bar, to improve the reasonable, actionable solutions, so how can you do more that that without dousing yourself with gasoline and lighting yourself ablaze in a final show of resistance?

You have stuck your neck out, publishing these symbols on this Forum, declaring your independence, how is that not accredited currency worthy of appreciation?

What if everyone did exactly that much?

Henry Ford knew.

I know.

I think you know top, so the concept of you printing tomato jar dollars, if that is the idea, can only go so far, and then the Federal Income Tax Criminals knock on the door, and they don't appreciate Tomato Jar Money.

They do not issue orders to you to compete against them by inventing, producing, and maintaining higher quality and lower cost currency, so you are breaking their Man Made Laws.

I showed you those laws right in their Constitution. You are ordered to pay and shut up, that is it, so pay and shut up.

You don't?

How is that not being "the best you can be" as a Friend of Liberty?

I'm not your boss, I can't give you the official accredited license to be one with God or your fellow human beings. That is dictator business.

"Sure my currency is learning and spreading my learning, but that does not do anything when it comes time for me to fill my gas tank."

Even if your neighbor traded his Algae Motor Fuel for your Tomatoes, again, the Federal Income Tax Criminals invade, occupy, commit fraud, and extort, so these Black Market Laundering Tactics only go so far, but you could learn these things (making your own powerful forms of money at home) so as to be independent from The Gas Station Monopoly Power, eventually.

That is why I keep Electric Cars and Solar Panels up front and personal. Every time I go to fill up on fuel, I speak out, much to my families limit of tolerance, I remind them that an Electric car is about 2 cents per mile compared to 10 cents per mile for gasoline.

I remind them that electricity prices can be driven down by us as we make our own electricity at home and I remind them how we make gasoline prices go up as we "provide the means by which we suffer", so gasoline powered cars are bad and getting worse, measured in dollars, and electricity powered cars are gooder and getter better, measured in Kilowatt/hours per mile, or measured relative to those dollars.

Solar Panels are modern day oil refineries as far as keeping your tank full.

Then, after those broken records of my pathologies are voiced by me, again, being the conspiracy theorist that I am, you know, then I keep Product 1 and Product 2 to myself, because it is an idea before its time, way before its time, apparently.

"What good does it do to chop the point off the top of a pyramid?"

That may be a very good subject for another topic because I can champion the opposite point of view. To me that is what has to be done, chopping off the top of the pyramid can be seen as "cutting the Debit card" and then local governments are flopping around like fish out of water, forced to pony up or go out of business.

What happens when the crap no longer flows downhill?

No more National Debt?

What happens?

If the fear is that Chaos will ensue, because our fearless leaders at Nation State central are no longer keeping us out of trouble, then such fears aught to be inspected for validity.

Once the head of the beast is off (cutting the Debit card) there will be an immediate scramble for filling that vacuum, people may aim their "something for nothing" demands at their State Governors, since the Federal Governors are no longer answering that call, or even asked, or The People may aim at The County, or The City, or they may just go ahead and look in the mirror, but the point is that their power that they earn will be theirs and they will no longer be providing the means by which they suffer through The FED, and The IRS, and The Troops will be Home spending money that we still pay to them, because they are so much more special over here defending Liberty than they are over there making oil scarce and making oil profits flow to the War Profiteers at The FED and The IRS.

Why that would be confusing to anyone, I don't know.

What about all those Welfare Dependents?

What about all those Welfare Dependents like the prime example, the POSTER BOY of WELFARE himself:

Ben Bernanke?

How about inspecting exactly what can happen to all the Welfare Dependents?

He, and the rest of the dependents, had better find a State that will keep them alive or heaven forbid he, and all the other dependents, had better find actual charitable people, even if the form of charity is honest employment opportunities being given to someone who will actually need to be trained before they produce anything of value worthy of exchange for the training or the job.

Chaos?

For who?

Productive people will actually have more power that is needed to defend themselves against chaos?

Is that the fear of "chaos"? Is the fear of "chaos" actually a fear of independently powerful people who are able to provide for themselves, defend themselves, and have enough power invested into making more power that they even have enough power to be charitable, handing out employment opportunities, training, and being examples of good people, instead of copying the examples set by the better lesser of two evils who are only lesser evil when they lie about what they will or won't do when in office?

Who is actually selling these lies they they brand as chaos, and "Economic Collapse" and "Global Warming" and "Peak Oil", and "Overpopulation", and "Extraordinary Rendition", and "Austerity Measures", and "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques", and "Quantitative Easing", and "A New World Order", etc.?

When people no longer get paid to vote for Legal Crime they will find something that does pay.

If they turn to crime, well, at least they won't have a badge to go with that decision.

Cut the head off.

1.
End the FED
2.
End the IRS
3.
Bring the Troops Home

Work from both ends?

Sure.

Both ends will be worked, it can't be any other way. Life is.

No matter where you go, you are still right there.

"What if we the people worked on the base such that the foundation was no longer strong enough to hold the structure?"

I don't think you get it, it might be me, but you are already doing all that, it isn't you. Your only part in it is that connection to that ONE MONEY. You get rid of all those criminals by disconnecting that ONE MONEY. Immediately you are pressed into a situation that requires a replacement, to fill that vacuum, once that ONE MONEY is gone. Will you have any problem connecting honestly to enough people where you live to stay alive, to live well, to make ends meet?

To provide the world with an improved example?

You are not the problem. Your connection to those criminals is the problem and that connection is that money.

Sure, get replacements ready, make replacements work, replacing that ONE MONEY, make it more and more of a chore to have to convert to that ONE MONEY when the TAX MAN rears his ugly, unwelcome, head.

Resist!

Question that authority.

No, you pay taxes willingly?

You prefer to make involuntary tax payments to torturing mass murderers as easy as breathing?

Easy as hearts beating?

You?

Please.

You work in ways that encourage other people to pay their fair share of Federal Income Tax?

You?

What measures the moral part of lending moral and material support to our enemies as we provide the means by which we suffer?

Are you the problem?

How?

How is your contribution in providing the means by which we suffer accurately measurable?

"How close are the states to the top of the structure?"

They are close in principle if not in the same room during meetings or trips to Bohemian Grove, but once the head is chopped off then there are 50 different heads to choose from and those choices, voting with feet, forces the Governors into competition with Governors, so they are thereby inspired to provide what the people tell them they want as they vote with their feet.

"I really think we (Friends of Liberty) must be active at the local level and those Friends of Liberty who are naturals at the game can move up the pyramid to the state and national level."

I tried that, to a limited extent, and I agree with you, an army of people pushing in that direction is a whole lot better than just 1 guy trying it once. How much more of a demand will there be for a higher quality and lower cost representative or Statesman once the head of the beast is cut off?

"If there are too many brush fires how can the Legal Criminals put them all out? IMO we (FoL) must be vigilant in local activity as we (FoL) who love peace never have been vigilant before."

No argument from me other than to offer a viewpoint that stresses the need to expend power toward disconnecting the worst Legal Criminals from the victims at that connection point, that ONE MONEY FRAUD POWER.

1.
End the FED
2.
End the IRS
3.
Bring the Troops Home

Many people with many things to do working on the same problem in unique ways that fit their special talents best, keeping in mind, it seems to me, the goal of disconnecting the links that bind the victims to the criminals made legal, and that is that ONE MONEY.

"How about if we work at the base and at the top at the same time? Would that not be effective?"

Like pushing the cart behind the horse while moving the horse back up front to pull the cart?

How can it be done any better?

"Work because there is plenty to be done, or perhaps in the JTK fashion 4 hours for you and 4 hours for me instead of 8 hours for me and 0 hours for you to do nothing."

Not only is there more good things produced, but the price goes down, and people gain the POWER of accomplishment, so what is the price of such a thing as accomplishment?

Why do people take low pay to get a good job? To beat someone else out of the only job available?

Is that all that can be said about human beings?

To satisfy ones own requirements as completely as possible to the exclusion of all others?

When each is responsible and therefore accountable there is all the evidence in the world that more good things will be more abundant including jobs that earn a very valuable sense of accomplishment and at that point isn't it possible that there will be a scarcity of laborers and therefore too many employers will be fighting over each other to get the last worker hired?

"We have to overwhelm with numbers, not just with a president, not just locally, but everywhere, which gets back to my “everyone run for office” at the same time idea."

That is sound advice including all those people like Ben Bernanke who have grown dependent on government welfare, so get up off your butt and get a real job.

No one pays you anymore for lying around.

The funny part is that no one does, the value of the currency is actually absent.

People are being paid nothing for doing nothing.

The other thing about everyone being involved, having an interest, is, please, Trial by Jury. If that were working as it was originally designed to work, based upon sortition, then the POWER of governors would be no more power than any individual juror, and far as which laws are enforced and which laws are nullified by anyone.

"if we do not stay engaged, the Criminals are going to continue to do what they do by re-amassing the power."

Trial by Jury, it seems to me, is as Patrick Henry said, a valuable privilege, when working at the local level, once the ONE MONEY FRAUD POWER no longer crushes all those competitors who could then employ themselves as governors of their free state if they want one: keeping free people free and keeping the criminals from the victims.

BREAK

"End the Fed, End the IRS, Bring the Troops Home in order to release ourselves from the Federal Monopoly Money and Power. It is a numbers game though. What are the odds? We have a long shot at those odds in Tampa next week."

You miss the point.

Perhaps.

It is a power struggle, and you are winning. You are using the power you have to ask the right questions. You are then finding (using your power) competitive answers.

Your currency (power) is not accurate, no longer false.

That is the power struggle in your individual case right there at that moment.

What if you were using counterfeit questions and what if all the answers you were using were as false, as poorly able to measure reality?

What would your life be had you not been born again?

The introduction of accurate currency, be it in the form of scripture, or tomatoes, into the stream, in the power struggle, pushes out the debt money, the destructive stuff, and any one person who begins to travel down this better path does.

Who would get off voluntarily once on a better path?

That is the point.

The Fraud Stuff can't survive in competition with forms of currency that do not injure the victims, and all that needs to happen is for the victims to see it.

No, Ben Bernanke, or any of the other Welfare Dependents, you are not powerful, you are destructive, not only are you destroying other people, you are destroying yourself, as you use that fraudulent currency, and as soon as a better choice is before you, what will be chosen?

Riddles?

Seriously?

I made an analogy, perhaps a new one, my invention, and I tried this analogy on some of my family, and they scored me with some credit, give the conspiracy theorist some credit, please:

Fraud money, as it currently flows through America, and the World at Large, is like a human body suffering anemia and the doctors are cutting on it, blood letting as a cure, but that is all that the doctors are doing, they are also pumping in synthetic blood through a tube into a major artery, but this blood does not carry oxygen, this blood carries diseases.

Not only is the body politic, the economy, already collapsed, the doctors are feeding the body politic intravenous injections of doom in the form of cancerous information warning of impending collapse.

What?

The body has already collapsed.

It did so in 1788.

It became a self-destructive abuser of the drugs used by every criminal, deceit, threats of violence, and violence upon those who are honest, those who are productive, and those who are innocent of wrongdoing, and it did so at a very high level of health so the bleeding of the life blood has taken this long, Liberty has been bled out this long, and it still caries oxygen, just look around, where is this collapse?

This collapse, each time you look, flows into the body through that intravenous connection, whereby the life blood of accurate currency is being replaced with synthetic stuff that does not carry oxygen, the synthetic stuff carries disease into the body.

In my diatribe to the family members I told them of the example of 373 TONS of 100 dollar bills shipped into Iraq and then having all that cash vanish without a trace.

The FED ordered those dollar bills to be printed, stacked, rapped, bound to wooden pallets, and shipped into a War Zone, to be lost?

That was a case of "liquid injection".

What did they inject?

Why is this not easy to see?

"And so are you unless you have figured out how not to use it. Tell me. HOW. How do you want me to pay my light bill this month. How do you want me to fill my gas tank tomorrow. How do you want me to pay $1200 this month for medical insurance? Tell me. Scripture and Verse…HOW?"

That above is how.

You replace the wrong currency with the right currency and that has to work in your brain first.

You don't accept a doctor plugging you up to a pump where disease is now being pumped into you.

You went to a better doctor, Jesus, God, scripture was the prescription? Is that valuable currency?

Is that productive currency?

Did that lead to more productive currency, such as love?

The pitter pattter of little feet?

Meanwhile there are Welfare Dependents, Tax Evaders, and Draft Dodgers not paying their fair share?

Where do these productive purchased by the Legal Criminals exist?

Are their only products those paper coupons injected into the body politic as Federal Reserve Notes?

No.

They serve up demands to pay one way or the other, either you will pay with Federal Reserve Notes, or you will pay other ways, or many ways, but you will pay, you will obey the order to pay, and that cannot be questioned.

A.
You are the problem.

B.
You were the problem.

How?

I'm supposed to tell you?

You are still having trouble with the concept of a voluntary and an involuntary association?

I think you have to figure that out, not me, but what do I know?

"Oh, here’s the HOW…I have to wait for everyone else while I continue to pay for my demise. Gee, that is helping me a lot. Uh, Joe, are you waiting too? Yes, let us all wait together while we get weaker and weaker."

Not so. People, including you, actually listen to people like me now, that was not the case 30 years ago, not to this current measure of that power, not by a long shot, and even better that merely listening, now, more than ever, people are using their own power of judgment in sifting through the data so as to employ the higher quality and lower cost data and leave the lower quality and higher cost data behind.

Example:

Take any current Television News Broadcast.

Take any current Internet News Broadcast.

Compare the two.

I actually saw Alex Jones on a Major Network Television News Broadcast on my Television. My wife was watching the T.V., which is in the same room as my computer.

Example:

Take the Presidential Election before and after the Presidential Election that included the independent candidate Ross Perot and compared those three events which were once Current Events with our Current last 3 Presidential Elections.

Here is one way to measure those events:

http://www.whowouldtheworldelect.com/index.php

I think that you have to use your power of judgment to gain more power flowing to you at the expense of no one.

Then you export that power by offering the example you set, and if you decide that you have to pay taxes, for now, because you are allowing that injury to you, by Legal Criminals, only because you will be forced to pay even more in your injury, for now, then meanwhile, it seems to me, you can use the power you still have left (which is more power not less power because you decide to minimize the losses you suffer at the hands of criminals with badges) to figure out more ways to lessen the injuries you suffer at the hands of Legal Criminals.

Why is that any different than choosing to avoid walking alone through a dark alley where muggers are known to hang out, if you must get from point A to point B and the dark alley on the direct route. You pay a price to find a longer way around that very risky gamble to exist in the same place as known criminals, but, unfortunately every single road from point A to point B has a toll booth, denominated in dollars, and the muggers are nicer through some, and not as nice (nothing personal) through others?

Hey, Jeff, can you accompany me through this toll booth, and hey, ahhhhhh, Jeff, it might be a good idea to figure out a way around this toll booth, what do you think?

Is that different, and if so, how different from:

Hey, Jeff, look at those Tax Evaders finding a way around those Toll Booths, and look at those Draft Dodgers over there, running away from their fair share, and over there too, look at those cowards, sitting there doing nothing, on our dimes?

Your dimes?

Whose head is on those dimes?

"My point with generosity was not for you to look at the Money Monopoly. It was to say, when we get competitive forms of money and people have liberty and if 90% of people are good, then we will treat each other with generosity no matter what our station in life is."

That is my point too. Rumors about mankind being all bad are premature, or self fulfilling prophecy?

"Again…HOW? I’m waiting."

Rome was not Collapsed in a day?

We are on the down cycle here, so while Legal Criminals are looting the place, it may be a good time to spread the word that, hey, now is our chance, opt out.

It takes more than one person.

It takes more than "something for nothing".

You are doing your fair share, but to me your fair share isn't paying Federal Income Tax, your fair share is exporting Accurate Information.

You want to do something? Did you run for office?

Did you pick a date and time when you would go ask someone for a copy of your local Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports?

I suggest, if you decide to do that, to look back into the archives to copies of those reports dated before 2001, and ask for original copies published before 2001, then compare to current copies of current accounts.

Would that be worth doing if you really want to do something other than exporting Accurate Information?

Where did you get Accurate Information worthy of export?

Did you watch The History of Oil?

Was it entertaining, informative, but not as completely true as compared to scripture and the word of God?

Did you watch The Money Masters and if so do you now have a better idea of how many variations of money did work, does work, and can work instead of just ONE MONEY, and FRAUD MONEY at that, and LEGAL FRAUD MONEY at that, now knowing more than before, in your own mind, just in case there was lingering doubts before watching that source of information?

Please, can I get a copy of the Comprehensive Annual Financial report?

Why do you want one?

I asked a question, and I don't want to answer questions, so I'll ask again.

Pretty Please, can I get a copy of the Comprehensive Annual Financial Report, please, or can you direct me to someone who can get me a copy of the Comprehensive Annual Financial Report?

I went to get a Real Estate License, involving a trip to the Police Station, fingerprinting, while there I asked for a Concealed Carry Permit. I was asked questions instead of me getting answers.

Is that a clue?

Is that accurate information?

Is that me doing something?

Can you do what I do?

I don't suggest that you do what I do, but if you want to do something, I can tell you what I did, and I can tell you what I do.

Export accurate information.

How much does it cost you to get accurate information?

How much do you charge me for giving accurate information to me, when I ask for it?

Is accurate information injected into the network of people by the authorities, like flue shots and mercury, monkey virus, aids, so as to save the children from their parents neglect?

OK, I'll give you a direct order, see how you like having someone other than you tell you what to do.

Call up CPS and turn your husband in for doing some horrible thing to the kids, and don't worry about lying, everyone does it, just don't get caught.

How is that for a case of false authority (not you yourself) answering your demand for authority (not you yourself)?

Not good enough?

I say read this, you watch a movie, then I say "way to go girl", talk about taking charge.

Is this like musical chairs?

"Again…HOW? I’m waiting."

I'm not. I'm writing. My days of jumping high fences in a single bound are over.

_____________________________________________
"...the constitution was written between the people and the consolidated government..."

NO SUCH THING

WELL I’M ONLY QUOTING THE LINK YOU GAVE ME: http://www.wfu.edu/~zulick/340/henry.html
___________________________________________

Patrick Henry is competitive.

I am competitive.

You are competitive.

Take what works, leave behind what does not work, what can I say?

"Yes, because you told me to read it. You did not tell me to read Spooner. I suppose you thought perhaps I would have respect for Henry and not Spooner."

No, my thinking was that Patrick Henry competitively exposes the wrong of Consolidated Government while competitively championing Confederated Government.

If the idea is to inspect The Constitution in much greater detail then Spooner's work offers that angle of view better.

If the idea is to report on how a person warned people before The Constitution became a crime in progress then Patrick Henry provided that example of those events in that time period.

If the idea is to understand exactly what is The Constitution, the actual piece of paper, then Lysander Spooner offers a meticulously accurate report which measures that piece of paper very accurately as far as I know.

"If we end the fed, end the irs, bring the troops home how long will that last? Other presidents have tried to end the fed. They end up dead. Do we end the constitution too?"

I answer such questions with a scale.

The Power Struggle can be measured on a scale and victims are apt to win big, very big, victories over Legal Criminals when victims stop using FRAUD MONEY, ending The First Bank of the United States, and ending The Second Bank of the United States, and ending The Federal Reserve Bank, and victims tend to win big, very big, victories when they end Extortion Payments called Taxes (not to be confused with voluntary taxes), such as the Tea Tax victory, but the Shays's Rebellion example was a loss, and the Whiskey Rebellion was a loss, and the Civil War, as far as the tax revolt part, was a loss, and the IRS was a loss.

We could use a win about now.

The Constitution is like a scribbling on a calender. Things were like this on this date. The Official National Debt Clock is another measure of how things are at a specific time - currently.

Push comes to shove.

Even Presidents, at times, work to move the POWER back to The People, toward Liberty, and sometimes Presidents are rewarded for that effort, call it extraordinarily rendered impeachments, or call it a Lone Gunman.

Whichever works for you.

I can sympathize. I was driven to speak to survivors of Waco. I was driven to run for congress. I was driven to sign and deliver Official Legal Redress of Grievance Petitions to "my" Congressman, buy guns, buy ammo, think, think, think, invent, communicate, speak, write, publish, think, think, I can sympathize.

I'm not so good at empathy.

My Dad, poor soul, was apparently empathetic to excess.

I didn't get that condition as well.

"That is robbery. I could have had wic and state insurance, I did not seek it. Why, it is not up to the state to pay my way. It is up to my husband and me to pay for our food and insurance, not someone else."

In my speech to the family members a few nights ago I spoke of Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports and how all that money could be used to pay people to go to College, not my suggestion, but a demonstrable fact, easily accounted in numbers, as suggested by Walter Burien who was the original whistle blower on CAFR.

My brother spoke up with a report from Alaska, where he worked for a time. He says that there is negative tax in Alaska, the government pays people to be citizens.

Which ones?

If it pays everyone, then it, that thing, that legal fiction, is voluntary government, in that way, by The People, and for The People, each one, compared to what?

Alaska is exporting ideas, no one is buying?

The price is too high?

"That is robbery. I could have had wic and state insurance, I did not seek it. Why, it is not up to the state to pay my way. It is up to my husband and me to pay for our food and insurance, not someone else."

The focus of attention targets exactly with precision or the focus of attention scatters power far and wide?

Example:

Narrow focus precisely on target:
1.
End the FED
2.
End the IRS
3.
Bring the Troops Home

Shot gun blast to do something even if it is wrong and to punish everyone for the crimes of a few:

1.
Get angry about people on welfare

Stand firm?

Don't budge?

"Just what would happen to the wash woman in Equitable Commerce if she was too lazy to do the laundry?"

Without The FED, and without The IRS, and with all that money being spent by all those Troops circulating at Home, as a start, the lazy washer women may find other ways to be lazy and still earn a few meals. Which State will then offer high pay rates for doing less than nothing?

Your State?

Mine?

Let me know. I may be moving soon.

Alaska is too cold, and my wife has grown roots.

At least 2 roots, and I don't think they are going to Alaska, but who knows?

I keep looking. I keep exporting accurate information.

I keep asking the most vital questions I can dream up.

I keep refusing to settle for less than the most accurate answers I can find.

BREAK

Joe

It is too much

I have read, I will reply later. I feel Sorrow. The evil is too great. But I find Hope:

Romans 8:33 [Apostle Paul speaking] Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth . 34 Who is he that condemneth ? It is Christ that died , yea rather , that is risen again , who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written , For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded , that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present , nor things to come , 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separateus from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

and More Hope:
1 John 4:4 [Apostle John Speaking] Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

and the Greatest Hope:
Matthew 28:20 [Jesus speaking] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo , I am with you alway , even unto the end of the world. Amen.

No word

I failed again to back up my work and I lost some words. I have Word, but I did not use Word to preserve my work.

405 ERROR

That is OK.

Too much is too much.

I did get a glimpse of understanding out of the God sacrifices for everyone else angle of view.

That was good work, spreading the word.

Thanks.

Joe

Sunday

I shall miss the words that you wrote; they must have been for you only. I imagine I butted in while you were typing. I am sorry for the energy you expended just to receive 405 error. I am still overwhelmed. It is strange, I know you to be a grown man and yet I want to go and scoop up that child there in that school and rescue him. There are more aren't there. I continue to know nothing. I do not have tears for laughing, but deep sorrow. We must bring them too. Today I will teach my 10 year olds a lesson on God's love for them.

I give this to you today, Sunday:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpe6Q-QVsoQ

I give this as well: http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/2-corinthians/passage.asp...

If you will check the little box that says "Strongs Numbers" (right above the verses on the right side), some of the words will appear in bold. You can click on any bold word and it will take you to the definition of the word.

As a Christian, the sufferings that I go thru are to be used to comfort others as I have received comfort from Christ (which is often times thru people). I am to in turn use that comfort to comfort others. The Apostle Paul was stoned multiple times, left for dead, ship wrecked, and imprisoned. He had also murdered Christians before his conversion. He knew suffering. He is the one that God used to write the words in 2 Corinthians.

Yours

RE: Equitablist; I had never heard the word before but since we were talking Capitalist & Socialist, I decided to use the word Equitablist when refering to those who advocate equitable commerce.

I haven't googled the word equitablist yet, but since that word would be a form of equitablism, I decided to ixquick it. I came up with this http://www.archive.org/stream/historyofcoopera02holy/history...

Have you every heard of co-operation? I haven't so I am giving you the link since you know all this political economy stuff. If we can still have the word equitablist,I think we should define it. WE= you and me. I, bear, also hereby give you the word. Joe Kelley may have the word equitablist if it is a new word if he would like to have it. If he gets in trouble with that word he may not implicate me as this is a voluntary association and he is in control of his own volition and I cannot tell him what to do or how to do it.

But, Joe, could you get rid of those awful spam returns on that calendar on your site before you put equitablist on it. Why would such a wonderful word be associated with those things? But I am not telling you what to do. Just my feelings. It makes me not want to go to your site because I don't want any of that stuff getting spammed on me.

I am still at my sisters so I can't write any more. (I just searched on equitablist and nothing returned. I use ixquick. Supposedly private...who knows nowadays.

Hidden things

"But, Joe, could you get rid of those awful spam returns on that calendar on your site before you put equitablist on it. Why would such a wonderful word be associated with those things?"

I don't know what is a "spam returns" awful or otherwise. I go to my site and there is now a Blog entry with a link to a forum. I've tested the connectivity of that site and it is well linked, it is "established" within the network like a tree that grows roots.

Perhaps some weeding is in order, but how can I weed that which is hidden?

I don't know what happens on your end of this network thing when you connect to the Forum I have and the awfulness of what happens appears to be communicated to me in a foreign language.

What are "those awful spam returns"?

As far as co-operation is concerned I think the term is generic or merely descriptive as in brightness of the sun, and like wetness of the water, so that there is co-operation among those human things.

You invented the word equitablist (and a fine word if ever there was one), or re-invented it, suffice to say that it has not yet gained much in the way of currency.

Joe

OK

OK, we went thru this months ago when I said you scared me and gave you some riddle about calendars with birthdays and members with questionable wares. You didn't know what I was talking about and when I finally gave you some words that made sence, You told me something about it being spam and not having time to clean it up.

http://www.power-independence.com/forum/view_user.php?list=1

I suppose I have let me guard down some.

Who joins your forum and why?

Are you running for president?

None of my business.

"Who joins your forum and why?"

I don't know how you have access to that information and it looks like the page I go to when someone starts using my forum to advertize directly or indirectly.

So the question here, to me is, what are you looking for and have you found what you want to find?

You prefer not to associate indirectly with mysterious entities with bad sounding names so you look to find mysterious entities with bad sounding names.

You found what you were looking for, so now you know not to connect back to that source of mysterious entities with bad sounding names.

I checked the web page you sent to me, and there are, according to that web page, 265 pages of these mysterious entities with bad sounding names.

"Who joins your forum and why?"

I know of two people joining my forum where their reasons including posting words in English on my forum. I just now spent the time and energy to look to see if I can use the Forum software, as administrator, to find which people actually published words in English, but I am unfamiliar with the software, and I have no interest in knowing how to use the software to find out such things.

Your interest appear to be driving more knowledge concerning my Forum than my interest drives my interest in my Forum.

That is interesting, but only in an academic way, I don't know, like how many more days of summer are left in 2012.

If I think about this again, this connection on the Network thing, where I pay someone 59 dollars in Federal Reserve Notes to maintain a hard drive in a room somewhere that is well connected to the Internet, in case more than 50 people try to log onto my Forum at that same time, which is not something I can do at home, and during the time I have this Forum there are people who join, undetected, and un-policed, by me, or anyone else, then as years go by the list grows to 265 pages of undetected, and un-policed, connections of whatever constitutes membership, which is immeasurable, it seems to me, unless someone actually posts something.

I may have the POWER to delete every member at once, and that could take a few minutes or a few e-mails with the Forum provider, or it could involve other steps I can't guess.

If, I think, there is 1 person on that list who is an actual person, someone who may check back to the forum once in awhile, and they are no longer a member, because I deleted the whole list of members, then I think it may be a negative thing to delete the whole list, which then brings up the possible scenario of going through the whole list and asking if they want to remain on the list or if they don't answer.

The thinking along these lines can go on, and on, and on, and it is of no interest to me.

I can report a change in the way the software works, where many people were joining, without me knowing about it, and no one posted anything, ever, and then something changed, and then some people started posting advertizements selling golf equipment, which was then my business, according to me, so I had to manually delete those advertizements for golf equipment, and delete those new members who started posting those adds for golf equipment.

Why was I attacked for golf equipment ads?

I don't know.

Why has no one attacked me for many possible other nefarious things, I don't know either.

My forum is low maintenance, I like it that way, but if someone like you were discussing Ron Paul, or political economy, on my Forum I would not be doing background checks on them, and I would not be deleting their membership anywhere, and my interest would be in the substance of the information being offered by the less mysterious entity as the actual product of their thought were produced in the form of English meaning conveyed through English language published as text on a forum connected to the internet.

"Who joins your forum and why?"

I don't know, except for a few cases, and those I can only guess as to their motives.

"Are you running for president?"

Yes, this is my second campaign for President. In my view I am way ahead of everyone else, since this will be common practice in the future. Presidents will be joining a Web Page to see if they are offering what the people want, not the other way around.

There will be a few of the best Web Pages where candidates go to sell what they are offering to The People and anyone who is looking for a better president will go to the preferred Web Page to shop for the best President.

Type in Presidents and a web page shows 10 Web Pages offering the highest quality and lowest cost Presidents seeking employment as President, each competitive Web Page offers the user options.

One Web Page may be run by The John Birch Society.

One Web Page may be run by E-Bay.

One Web Page may be run by PayPal.

Who knows?

I don't.

I have my guesses.

"Who joins your forum and why?"

Your guess appears to be better than mine, since I have no interest in the question or the answer until such time as the information is offered to me in some form or another, such as a forum post, and then I have an interest.

If you are representative of an army of people who know how to find that web page of the list of members, and that army of people do not join my forum because of that list of members, then that army, according to me, aught to stay away, for their own good, since they may be falsely associated with that list of members themselves, in their own minds, because I can't imagine, in my mind, any other connection of any kind.

Joe

Your Business

Do you really think it is ok to run for president and have this member as first on the list?

Randy Jones Cheap Dildo How Big Should M Wed May 27th, 2009 0

And no, I do not look for that stuff. I can't help it if the first member on your list is located in dildo land. If it was on another page or mixed in somewhere in the middle I probably wouldn't have noticed or looked any further. But it was the first line on the list and I was trying to figure out why you wanted me to create competitive forms of currency. I wanted to make sure you were not some kind of swindler.

"If you are representative of an army of people who know how to find that web page of the list of members, and that army of people do not join my forum because of that list of members, then that army, according to me, aught to stay away, for their own good, since they may be falsely associated with that list of members themselves, in their own minds, because I can't imagine, in my mind, any other connection of any kind."

Seems to me if you are running for president you might like an army of people to support you. I have nothing else to say about it. I could care less. Go ahead and advertise dildos and leather lingerie while you are running for president. Maybe it will work for you.

...

Comic Relief

"Do you really think it is ok to run for president and have this member as first on the list?"

Which is more popular, please:

1.
Dildos
2.
Liberty

If I were running for President of the Dildo consumers then I might get a few more votes than none?

I have thought about the connection between me and those mysterious entities listed on the Web Page of members of that Forum, which is as open and honest as any other public access connection that has no one controlling membership in almost all the case of membership, other than, perhaps, a few people pressing a button that spams, and spams, and spams once the button is pushed, and my thinking is to put the decision in your hands, as adviser, and this is an experiment in governance.

It matters little to me, other than sending the wrong message to any members I may have that are actual members, but a member that wants to be a member can rejoin despite the message of carelessness, so with that measure of my care-free constitution, my let the chips fall as they may attitude, the matter is in your hands, if you care to decide, and if your decision is to wipe out all the members, then I can do that, and I think I can do that with much less cost to me than were I to go through hundreds of pages and weed out the obvious non-Liberty type "members".

That matter can then be put aside until such time as the weeds grow back, which may or may not happen, since the forum software has changed and it may now be much more difficult to be a member compared to time period when the weeds grew to fill hundreds of pages.

"I was trying to figure out why you wanted me to create competitive forms of currency."

Back to common sense? There is a need to earn an income unless the individual is capable of producing every need alone or unless the individual takes from other people to satisfy every requirement to the exclusion of all others.

If you produce anything worth trading then that is currency. My products are not convertible in Official Counterfeit United States Federal Reserve Notes so my currency is not producing an official counterfeit income. This is, that sentence before this one, is my currency, the intention is to see past the counterfeit stuff.

Common sense stuff; it seems to me. Not so common. Dildos are more common, it seems.

You may or may not like a movie that may or may not illustrate a point that may or may not be relevant to this angle of view that we are currently discussing:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/

There is comic relief involved in life for some, not all, but some manage to find it. We can't all find comic relief in the same places, since we are not all the same. I try to see past the differences and look for the worthwhile common elements.

Example:

Live and let live.

If that is a common element, then it is one of the worthwile ones.

"Seems to me if you are running for president you might like an army of people to support you. I have nothing else to say about it. I could care less. Go ahead and advertise dildos and leather lingerie while you are running for president. Maybe it will work for you."

That can be the final word, or it can be adjusted? The concept of delegation can be tested, if you would be so kind as to offer your power of judgment on the matter I will obey that higher authority, and if the judgment from the higher authority is to press the buttons that disconnect all the members from the list of members to that forum, which is my power to do easily (relatively easy), then my decision now, right now, is to delegate that power to you. If you type the word DELETE then I will DELETE the membership list on your authority, your considered opinion, your good sense, and that matter will be dealt with in that way.

That ball is in your court, if this were a tennis match.

As President there would be similar dealings, make no mistake, I don't, many decisions must be made, and not enough time to make only the most important ones, so delegation is necessary.

This goes along the lines of strategy, and tactics, in war.

If you can consider this side note, please do.

http://www.amazon.com/Boyd-The-Fighter-Pilot-Changed/dp/0316...

That is a significant book, worth reading, concerning a measure of The U.S. Military and how it works for good and how it works for bad.

As President I would have control over the military. What would I do?

I would interview Colonels and Commanders seeking those who do things, not those who are seeking to "be someone", and I would raise them up to be my Generals and Admirals, and their job would then be to repeat what I just did, to raise up those who are leaders into positions of leaders and to weed out those who are followers of deceit and Legal Crime.

What about the CIA, FBI, TSA, EPA, CBS, NBC?

Ron Paul already has the obvious solution to that problem, all those "employees" are fired, and that process includes an offer to be rehired by any State where that State government demands those services supplied by those employees.

How to get that ball rolling?

Same thing works, in delegating authority. Between the time when I take office and the time when all those employes will be asked to leave their positions of counterfeit authority (not constitution and therefore not lawful) will be a reasonable time span, such as a year, and that gives the State governments time to rehire those people who may be able to sell their valuable services within the Democratic Federated Limited Constitutional Competitive Republic. Meanwhile I would go through each "Service", starting with The CIA, and interview the mid level employees, and order them into positions of higher authority within their current POWER, which will be NO POWER at the end of the year, and they will be tasked with finding the worst among their number, a top 10 list, whereby those worst among their number will then be tried by due process, just like any other citizen, for the crimes that they have committed under the color of law.

I'm not spilling the beans here, I know how this works, and Ron Paul, if I read him right, has a similar plan of action. This type of thing is always working in those types of structures, so the leaders have to either lead or be led, there is no fence sitting.

Presidents like Obama, Bush, and Clinton were being led, the first Bush is questionable, probably one of the actual CLUB, a leader, having climbed up through the CIA (Secret Police as in The SS in Nazi Germany or the KGB in Russia).

The NSA will be done the same way. Internal mid level officers are placed in the highest positions, and then they are set to the task of dismantling their POWER by processing the worst among their number with the same due process afforded any other criminal.

Note: CIA good guys (those I find through interviews) will not be limited to only targeting bad guys in their own organization, they would be given the authority to find the worst in any former Color of Law ABC agency, so the CIA would be policing the NSA, FBI, Treasury, etc., for 1 year, before all that is no longer legal, at all, at the Federal level. Those hired to police those agencies would be told to do the best job you can since you are now collecting a resume to be taken to a State level government to use in the effort to sell your special talents.

Is there an actual legitimate "spy" agency seeking to stay one step ahead of the "Terrorists"? I don't think so, and I would not trust the current "leaders" in those agencies, but interviews with mid level officers may uncover details that I know nothing about as a poor broken down former laborer who is falsely connected to dildo consumers, and therefore an added personal interest, an incentive, added to the "cleaning house" angle would be to authorize the collection of data which would then be used to sell to me a need to keep ONE spy agency alive at the Federal level, so each of those many "spy" agencies would be reaching for the highest quality spy agency at the lowest cost for me as President of that CLUB.

Where will all those courts find the time to process this increase in demand for due process as house cleaning follows through as planned?

You may have no reason to support me, or my kind, people like me may be a polar opposite to you and your kind on the question of Drugs.

I know for a fact, after talking to people in prison, people writing books, cops, and others that a rough estimate of the total population of all the prisons Nation Wide are in prison for getting caught with Drugs, and that is the tip of that iceberg. Those are just the one's being targeted and caught with Drugs, and those filling all those prisons do not include all the one's who are avoided, and purposefully not caught.

The CIA funds its very expensive criminal operations by selling drugs to Americans, and selling guns, and that is a huge volume of sales so if every drug user volunteers to obey all those drug laws, then everyone here in American would be paying to feed and shelter every other American in Prison, so that whole mess has to stop, no more Federal Level enforcement of drug sales, drug use, punishing the drug users of choice, or any of that stupid crap. If the State governments want to Police their citizens and imprison the one's caught doing drugs, then that is their business. In 1 year there will be plenty of ex-CIA employees seeking work to funnel drugs and guns into your State so you can get exactly what you want to pay for in your State.

If The People prefer to deal with torturing mass murderers who know exactly how to extract confessions and exactly how to lawfully be serial killers then they can start marching on down to their local courts and get on a jury when the notice arrives in the mail.

You may not be told by CBS, NBS, or CIA that a Ron Paul or Joe Kelley as president is cleaning house, but you may be witness to such things as a juror in a Trial by Jury.

The Dildo sellers are none of my business.

How about an experiment in delegating authority?

Just type the word DELETE and I'll get the message from my fearless leader who I elect to be my authority on this matter.

Joe

Not Me

Click on Albany and see what comes up. There are 2 web addresses to Porn. I didn't click on the web addresses, nor did I click on dildo land. I don't want to know what is in those addresses. I cannot tell you what to do. I am not your leader. It is a family tradition. I will not push you. I tried to set up a conversation for you and dw, and that was a big mistake. I encouraged you to post the rothbard/menger article, and that was a big mistake. I cannot do what is best for you or tell you. I can only tell you how I feel about something. I would never join a site that has the links I just told you about in Albany. Albany seemed like it would be safe to click on...nor would I support a president who had that stuff on their site.

Anyway it is easy to find your members. From home page click go to forum, then at the top of the form page is a menu list. On the menu list drop down is calendar, members, help. That is how I found your member list.

Your 2012 Challenge was asking me to sign on. I wanted to know who I was signing on with and that is the only reason I searched around on your site.

As far as the drug stuff. I am lucky I didn't get hauled off in high school...nice cops let me and my friends go.

Yes, I understand the drug war racket and private corporation prison racket...a never ending supply of people to house on the tax payers back while they bait the victims thru the cia. Yes, I get it.

No, I do not advocate drug use. I advocate the death penalty for violent criminals...those that kill and torture men, boys, women & children and eat them or however they decide to dispose of them, and porn is a gateway drug to that end as far as I can understand.

Separating

Separating, if possible, opinion from fact I think it is useful to play out a few possible scenarios on the support of the death penalty path.

"I advocate the death penalty for violent criminals..."

In English the actual facts of what actually happens can be:

Lending moral and material support to serial killers so as to reach for the goal of decreasing the number of serial killings.

That is an English sentence intending to actually report the facts, absent any opinion whatsoever.

Moving on to actual practice and even moving onto a theoretical case to illustrate a "good as it can get" case, despite what scripture may suggest, and despite what moral conscience may suggest, and despite what common sense may suggest, the absolute best case, as far as my opinion goes, could go like this:

A Trial by Jury based upon sortition occurs and in this case Dick Cheney is accused of mass murder and two of the jurors are one person who will be called Bear and another person who is Joe Kelley or Joseph Thomas Kelley to be technically correct as to my given name.

Bear and Joe were picked randomly on this case and we both answered the call despite how taxing, how costly, and how expensive it is for us to stop what we are doing and do this Trial by Jury stuff instead.

Assuming we reach the point where Bear and I both are satisfied, beyond any reasonable doubt, in our own minds, that the presumed innocent person is in fact guilty of mass murder.

Dick put the vice back in the Vice Presidency.

I know it, and now Bear, after prudent due diligence, and willful exertion of her own power to know better knows too, since she asked for specific information, and was supplied with that specific information that she demanded, and as far as her opinion goes (fictional or theoretical case here, not intending to be me speaking for anyone), the person of Dick Cheney is a monster and if you 11 other people don't kill him then she will all on her own.

Bear says: Let me kill him if no one else will, or something to that effect.

I'm not so fast at the draw.

I say to the fellow Friends of Liberty on the Jury to reconsider the case where we hire someone to kill Dick or we let Bear kill him in her own special way, possibly a humane way according to her, while I see a competitive option.

I say, hey, why not sentence him to be extraordinarily rendered into the hands of some of the survivors of his torturous and mass murderous killing spree, where they have something similar, something competitive, in the way of Trial by Jury, and those survivors are, in fact, asking for his presence in their own trial. Why not, as Jurors, wielding the power of law afforded to us, why not extradite the monster to face other trials by other jurors, and in so doing we accomplish many things, the most of which is to reinforce any lingering doubts that may remain within any conscious mind currently living on Earth, as to the true measure of guilt earned by this particular Monster?

Facing, directly, his accusers here, may have brought him to the brink of another heart attack, or he may yet feel secure and comfortable among these Friends of Liberty, while the announcement of this extraordinary rendering of our decision to export the Monster may push him over the edge into God territory, and by the way, Bear, if I have understood scripture well, or you can correct me if not, your personal account concerning killing murderers demotes you down from one of God's Children into the fold of us who are merely God's Creation, or do I have that wrong?

I though you knew better, and I thought that you were the one who told me you knew better, but if you don't, if you wash your hands of it, this support for serial killing, by some reasoning, then I'm almost all ears.

What is your verdict in the illustrative case?

Nonsense?

Joe

Check

Mate?

I'm too tired to carry on a civil discussion and I don't know. All my life I have thought the death penalty was OK because it is carried out by government of the people by the people for the people, and not by an individual. I like my option rather than rendering by the families of the victims. I think that sounds awful for all parties. As if punishment for crime should be pushed upon the victims of the crime to fulfill. Not only will they have the memory of the demise of their loved one, but also the memory of blood upon their own hands of the demise of the criminal. I think that option could also lead to blood thirst. I think that is why it is supposed to be done humanely and anonymously by the “state.” That is why several people (blind sortition) enact the mechanism that causes the death of the criminal, so that no one has knowledge of who was the executioner.

I think the death penalty is supposed to be a deterrent making the penalty worse than the crime so that the criminal thinks long, hard, and well before committing such an offence, and perhaps chooses for the better. It is also a final deterrent for that one that is executed. I think I could look in the Scriptures to come up with answers. I think I am too tired. But, I am going to give this one because I am familiar with it: Proverbs:20:26 "A wise king scattereth the wicked, and bringeth the wheel over them." I suppose also that the 10 Commandments say “thou shalt not kill” but at the same time the Levitical law spells out offences for which the death penalty is the punishment. There is a difference between justice and murder.

Numbers 35:11 Then ye shall appoint you cities to be cities of refuge for you; that the slayer may flee thither, which killeth any person at unawares.12 And they shall be unto you cities for refuge from the avenger ; that the manslayerdie not, until he stand before the congregation in judgment.
Full Context: http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/numbers/35.html discusses various degrees of murder or accidental death by the hand of a human.

Do you think my being one of God’s children is based upon my thoughts about the death penalty?

Playing God's advocate

I wrote a response and it was lost, which is very odd because this time my account here was logged out after I hit the Save button, so I could not backspace and retrieve the message that failed to be uploaded.

Anyway, the concept remains fresh in my mind so I can write the thing over, and this time I can cut and paste the text onto Word before hitting the Save button, and if there is further strange things happening, I can avoid having to re-write the intended message.

Please allow me to speak as if I were one of God's Children as if someone along those lines were a third member of the jury in the example previously illustrated.

The stage set is the case of trying one of the worst of the worst, through due process, no different than any other person who is presumed innocent, accused by victims or representatives of victims, survivors of victims, where legalized torture and mass murder is the crime in question, lots of blood, and lots of bodies are offered as evidence, paper trails, witnesses, whistle blowers, confessions, and the jurors finally agree on the sentence, and they elect someone who stands out among the 12 as one of God's Children, of the vocal sort, someone appearing to have all their homework done, and someone who has been, obviously, born again. Not me, but someone else, and this is merely meant to illustrate a point, one worth pondering in my not so humble opinion in that matter.

God's Child Speaks
Jury Nullification Case 666
Dick Cheney versus Victims

Mr. Cheney,

It is our request for you to stand and face your present accusers, as the verdict by this jury is rendered to you, please.

We find you guilty of legalizing torture, and then ordering torture, and we find you guilty of legalizing mass murder, and then ordering mass murder, and if there is any further argument over the matter, in your defense, consider such effort as a waste of time at this point here, but please keep that thought in mind, for you are hereby ordered to be shipped to a number of places that will be additional trials where additional victims accuse you of similar crimes and you will face them too.

There is more.

You may notice how I am smiling. My smile is open. My smile is honest. I will report to you why I am smiling. Let there be no misunderstanding concerning my smile.

I am confident in knowing that any error in judgment we have made, despite or due diligence in removing all doubt, is of little consequence compared to your final fate at the end of this journey you have chosen to travel on your path in the life that God gave you.

You will end up, again my confidence showing up as a simile, you will end up being judged by God, and then there will be no mistake, and you will not be at an end, then, you will be at a new beginning at that point. Here you are in flesh and blood, like the flesh you tore off so many victims, and the blood you drank of those same victims, and there, at that end, where God will judge you, time will be meaning-less.

May God have mercy on your soul.

"Do you think my being one of God’s children is based upon my thoughts about the death penalty?"

I had answered that first in the reply that was lost.

My thinking was, and is, that you still need to work on those things that have invaded and occupied your mind, taking it over, and causing you to think, speak, and act against your own interests, including your interest in obeying the God you know despite all your human weaknesses.

Joe

Double Jeopardy

I hope I didn’t make you loose your post by editing mine. If I did, I am very sorry. Most of the time I initiate my post in Word, or if not I always copy my post before hitting save because I have had sessions time out or get 403 errors and the such.

Anyways IMO, in the trial, all evidence should be introduced and witnesses called such that there are no additional trials necessary.

What are your thoughts on Double Jeopardy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_jeopardy
Wiki: Double jeopardy is a procedural defence that forbids a defendant from being tried again on the same (or similar) charges following a legitimate acquittal or conviction. In common law countries, a defendant may enter a peremptory plea of autrefois acquit or autrefois convict (autrefois means "previously" in French), meaning the defendant has been acquitted or convicted of the same offence.[1]

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment05/

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment05/...

It would cost a lot of time and money to try and retry criminals. Once the unanimous guilty verdict is found by 12 jurors selected by sortition what is the point? IMO the need is to move on to the next criminal, not spend anymore time and resources on the one found guilty. I cannot imagine such as system as being just or humane.

...

Double Speak?

"What are your thoughts on Double Jeopardy?"

The purpose of Law is to help guide the law abiding along a path that abides by the Law, while dictators prefer to have the law abiding people read from dictatorial scripts that dictators dictate to make the law abiding abide by those laws dictated by those dictators and once on that path what happens on that path is that the dictators begin to dictate laws that apply to people they target for abuse while those same laws don't apply to the dictators themselves which are thereby rendered entirely dependent upon their say so at any given moment.

Double Jeopardy sounds to me like Double Speak.

Here is where I see a combination of God's law and experience such as the experience offered by Alexander I. Solzhenitsyn having to do with falsehood being linked to violence.

Were it made a law that everyone were to volunteer to be honest then everyone except the criminals would be honest and all those honest people would then confess their reasons for dictating to each other and so no one in their right mind would ever sign onto any method by which they, the intended victims, volunteer to provide the means by which we suffer, ever.

Those who listen to the actual honest intentions of their soon to be abusers who want that are thereby confessing a desire for it and therefore they can have all the double jeopardy they want without any double speak covering it up.

I think it is very important to accurately discriminate between The Friends of Liberty and those people who resort to deceit upon the targeted innocent, and resort to threats of violence upon the targeted innocent, and resort to violence upon the targeted innocence, because confusion of the two by someone amounts to a confession as being victim, like painting a target on your back.

Hey, look here, I can't tell the difference between a criminal and a regular old person who merely wants to live and let live, so abuse me, please.

The Criminals know better, so why are the victims conserving their state of ignorance, confusion, and double jeopardy so well?

1. Stockholm Syndrome Word Wide
They love their chains, they love to be abused, and they love, love, love, to send all they can afford, and then more than they can afford, to reward those who abuse them.

2. A competitive answer

The Deceiver

Entering from stage left, or right, is, in various fleshy forms, are the deceivers whose communications to you, or anyone other than those who agree with deception as a way of life, depends upon what is is.

Is means this today.

is means the opposite today.

Which day is it?

It depends upon what is is.

Come on Bill, you are speaking to the choir, when IS it OK for me to go ahead and drive over these church goes with my tank? I needs to know, you know, IS it OK or not TODAY, it has been months and I am getting bored with all the torturing. I want to kill something. IS it OK TODAY, Bill?

It is.

Unless, of course, they get caught, and then IS didn't mean IS that way that day, in fact, according to The Deceiver.

Warren covered this in Equitable Commerce, by the way.

If anything can be learned from Spooner's study of Trial by Jury, and that was my point with the illustrated Trial by Jury, then IS depends upon what 12 people agree IS means in any case whatsoever.

If I am a victim and I say try the case, and Dictators say yes or no, in any case whatsoever, then where is equity in that case?

It is gone, and in place is iniquity, made law.

Iniquity made lawful, sounds a whole lot like Legal Crime to me.

Is it right or wrong?

Well, Bill, it depends upon what you say IS means today.

Is it always made a Trial by Jury if a victim accuses a criminal of crime?

You tell me.

Which POWER decides which victim has access to Law and which victim is not allowed that privilege?

Perhaps there will be cries by victims seeking to punish someone unjustly, causing more victimization piled one on top of another?

Everyone will be claiming that they are a victim, perhaps, and everyone else is thereby paying all the costs of defense constantly?

Why does that sound so familiar to me?

All men are bad and therefore it takes one exceptional less bad person, me, precisely me, to step in, from stage left, and save everyone from themselves?

That is the might makes right argument.

Who wins that argument?

The Mighty of course.

The deceiver, it seems to me, has to win at least one battle first, before moving onto that tangled web, and there must be a covering up effectively done, to cover up the concept of morality, or God's law, or Natural Law, and then it will be smooth sailing.

Natural Law, or God's law, applies to everyone without exception, and if that is the only law, without deception by people who deceive, then those people who resort to violence upon fellow human beings will be treated the same way that people treat wild animals, or hurricanes, or diseases, or roads that lead to a fatal drop down a cliff where the bridge collapsed, or like The Plague.

What is the old saying concerning The Plague?

So the anarchists are given a bad rap, by who, and who believes the liars who invent these anti-anarchists, or these people running amok, raping, torturing, murdering, out in the open, like a bunch of wild animals, in chaos, OH my, not chaos!

Terrorists!

You are either with us (terrorists), or you are a terrorist.

It is a closed loop, so why not concentrate on that, and if a Jury is dealing with an accused victim, because each victim is afforded the same access to law as each other victim, then those 12 people determine right from wrong according to their own power to do so, without any previous or current or future instructions and let those chips fall as they may.

You can't, the cry goes, afford everyone the same power as the "authorities" because if you do that, oh my, oh my, oh my, then hell will break loose, and no one will have any time to do anything, since everyone will be at each others throats, and the tortured and mass murdered piles of bodies will reach all the way up to heaven.

Knee's jerking for everyone with two knees?

Where is the no legged person when you need one?

Joe

Bad vs Wrong

Josf, I am totally confused. What is wrong with Trial by Jury among Friends of Liberty where all the criminals have migrated to New York, but oops one gets loose and victimizes someone, kills them or whatever, and then all 12 or those jurors chosen by sortition say that the criminal is guilty based upon the witness testimony/evidence and the accused is sentenced to death and the sentence is carried out. No Double Jeopardy is a 5th amendment right for all and among Friends of Liberty. Is means Is; and Death means Death; and Innocent means Innocent. Period. I cannot understand the problem with my logic.

And as far as everyone being “bad.” I don’t think I have said that. What I have said, is everyone has done wrong. AndI will add that if they die before they do wrong you can count on it that if they had lived they would do wrong. It is human nature. I do wrong. I do wrong on accident. I do wrong by mistake. I do wrong on purpose. I do wrong out of vengeance. I do wrong out of selfishness. I do wrong out of pride. I do wrong out of impatience. I can think of a lot of reasons I do wrong. That does not mean I am bad. That just means I have the propensity to do wrong. That does not mean I always do wrong. That does not mean that I am not good. I imagine I will do something wrong before the week is over, maybe not on purpose…well gee…I went 85 yesterday. I did something wrong and knew better, after all I was not in the car alone. I did it because I chose to do it. I did it because I wanted to do it. I did it because I like going down hills fast. I did it because it would have been too boring to go 55. I shouldn’t have done it. I was wrong and didn’t even think about it till now.

I have not read Spooner Trial by Jury yet so I do not know what he might advocate in the punishment phase. I would hope that the idea would not to be to make the accused unduly suffer. If so, then I become no different than the accused. Let’s just open up our own torture chambers for those that are proven guilty?

Confusion spreads

"Period. I cannot understand the problem with my logic."

The error in miscommunication is accurately identified as belonging to my account, in this case, since I have failed to focus attention well enough to be able to quote exactly what is the focus of attention.

Rather than having me stumble around looking for it, can you quote or even rewrite the focus of attention?

Is it Double Jeopardy? Is that the focus of attention?

"No Double Jeopardy is a 5th amendment right for all and among Friends of Liberty. Is means Is; and Death means Death; and Innocent means Innocent."

What IS is a thing that can be called Legal Crime or it can be called The Dollar Hegemony or Wall Street or U.S.A. Inc. (LLC), or The Federal Reserve, or The IRS, or the Military, or the Military Industrial Complex, and if IT IS something (actually people and their collective, or amalgamated, or total sum, power of will focused on actual actions by people) includes something called Double Jeopardy by them, then that can be the focus, where we focus on those people doing what they do so very well.

If you are asking me what I think a Jury will say about Double Jeopardy then I can play that out in an illustration as such:

Juror A:
I'm not sure if the guy is guilty but if we don't convict him this time then he can't ever be tried again so this is our only legal chance according to this paper the judge handed us.

Before I proceed I am inclined to ask you if you have ever been on Jury, since I have, and I know that Jurors don't listen and they do not do what they are told to do as a rule, and I happened to have been the exception to that rule back when I was a juror, that one time, and back when the other jurors taught me this valuable lesson of Liberty, as to who has the power to decide what is right, wrong, bad, good, punishable, or equitable.

Juror B:
If we convict him, and we say he has to be put to death, and I'll do it if no one else will, then the only other trial he can expect to jeopardize him is the judgement God will dictate upon his immortal soul.

Juror C:
No matter what you guys and gals may or may not think, I have the veto card, so this one is free as a bird and that is my final decision on the matter, so don't waste another breath, this case is done.

The point I wanted to point out has to do with the process as the process pertains to accusations by victims or representatives of victims not limited to family members who are having a very hard time dealing with the criminal who murdered their loved ones.

Double Jeopardy sounds a whole lot like one of those Executive Pardons whereby the Executive Pardons his own crimes for whatever reason may be invented to fit the occasion.

As to the reference concerning how one State may compete with another State in a Democratic Federated Republic the method by which things are done differently, and competitively, so as to pick and choose the better from the worse, can include any enforcement of any law such as a Double Jeopardy Law, done voluntarily, or done deceptively, or done by criminals to victims, or victims on victims, or among Friends of Liberty, who knows?

What specific case concerning which specific question is logic being applied effectively and where I've missed that effective employment of logic?

"I cannot understand the problem with my logic."

I cannot understand the problem with your logic either, and the confusion can be all mine, since I do tend to focus attention on Legal Crime and how Legal Crime can be easily confused with other things that are not Legalized Crime.

"And as far as everyone being “bad.” I don’t think I have said that."

I refer often to the idea (falsehood) invented by criminals which takes many forms such as:

Might makes right.

All men are bad (Machiavellian idealism?).

Despostism

Crime

Legal Crime

Involuntary Socialism

Involuntary Capitalism

Bolshevism (Stalinist Communism)

Nazism (Fascism as exemplified during the Reign of Hitler and the Nazi "Party" = woooooo hoooooooo lets party man)

Etc.

It is the same old lie made by every criminal in various forms as the victims are only slightly less bad than the benevolent dictator, or slightly worse, depending upon what is is.

Your words appear, at times, to be infected with that virus, and at other times your words appear to be in direct opposition to that lie as that lie infects people when people fail to know better concerning that lie.

Criminals know better, they know that might or POWER can be employed to destroy people, and take their stuff.

No lie. That is what they know, proven by what they do, not what they say.

Power can be used to destroy people and take their stuff, and it becomes much easier to be a criminal when the victims are made to believe in lies, to a point where the victims will actually work harder to pay more to the criminals even to the point at which the victims will work themselves into early graves to pay more to the Legal Criminals, and even worse that that is possible, as proven time and again, not just in Russia, not just in Germany, not just in Cambodia, but right here in good ole' U.S.A. Inc. (LLC) too.

"I do wrong. That does not mean I am bad."

I prefer to employ triage or expedience and that is why I placed Dick Cheney on the block to be executed or set free in a capital case where the Law supports capital punishment.

If I thought that you were bad I'd have constructed a theoretical trial where you were on the chopping block.

I thought I made myself clear, you are one in a billion, one of the few who question authority, which is essential toward the goal of staying alive, if for no other reason - or logic.

So many people are mere parrots, robots, drones, play things, cannon fodder, vessels, subjects, employees, usable dross, consumables, victims, victims, victims, and they are trapped in a closed loop.

You are not, obviously. So there is confusion here, sure, as to what I think, as to who is bad, who is good, to be specific, rather than being ambiguous.

"I was wrong and didn’t even think about it till now."

If you say so. I think 85 is as safe and as secure as 55, less time on the road, exposed thereby to less opportunity for things to go wrong, and these things tend to show up in accurate insurance studies (not necessarily any insurance study, but accurate ones can actually be made more accurate over time if that is the goal).

"Let’s just open up our own torture chambers for those that are proven guilty?"

The concept is sound and it is based upon the idea that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

If a King John can piss everyone off then it is good to give that much power to everyone, and King John is then nothing special.

If everyone is bad, ready, willing, and able to torture and murder each other at the drop of the hat, then, the logic goes, why let one person do it, why not get everyone on the same page, and we can get this madness over sooner.

But that is if you think like a criminal, where the victims are supposed to believe that everyone is bad.

If you think like a Friend of Liberty, which includes those people known as God's Children, then people are good, not bad, and all that people need to do is to follow their capacity to know better, to be good, to think in terms such as "what is good for the goose is good for the gander" or "do unto other as you want them to do unto you", and in reality that is what happens in a Trial by Jury.

Enough good people show up, rather than only bad people showing up, and they tend to deal effectively with the real bad people, and they tend to deal effectively with the really good people, and they tend to deal not at all with the people who are not really bad and not really good, why bother?

In actual trial by jury, in any case, the jurors are human beings and they think, and they think things like: hey, if I do this to that person then other people can do those things to me, and they think of things like: hey, if that guy is allowed to roam free, like any other natural disaster, people like me are going to suffer a whole lot more than necessary.

In a working Trial by Jury based upon sortition as was the case reported by Spooner in Trial by Jury the Jurors were the ones who had the legal power to try the specific case, and try the specific law, and if I remember right they were even afforded the legal privilege, or legal POWER, to prescribe specific punishment as they could invent on the fly, or take from a book, or adapt from previous prescriptions to fit the occasion.

If you have any doubts as to exactly how bad you are, I'm not saying that you do, I'm just saying that if you are anything like me, then you can do what I do and place your relative badness or wrongness on a scale next to some exceptional examples.

You are not Jesus.

You are not Pol Pot (or the guys who paid him to do what he did so well).

You are not Dick Cheney (who paid a lot of people really well to do what they do so well).

I don't think that you are bad.

I think you are good.

Why so much confusion?

Joe

A New Day?

OK I understand a problem with Double Jeopardy; i.e., must convict today or else will not have the opportunity so what is supposed to be a beneficial safeguard can be used contra wise and cause injustice. But I am still sticking with once found guilty via true trial by jury, no further trial is necessary. And on the flip side: once found innocent an individual will not be tried again for the same crime. Imagine yourself innocent and a case has been constructed around you to incriminate you. You stand trial, you are found innocent. You will not have to face those false accusations again.

As far as Dick Cheney, I don’t know what he has done, but he is innocent until proven guilty and if proven guilty then he must face his punishment. I suppose tho if there are other crimes for which he is guilty he must also face those accusers. I was probably wrong yesterday. As far as double jeopardy. But if one is a thief and charges are not brought together, then one will face each trial for each charge. i.e. the young man who tried to break into the church had already served prison time for theft and once on parole still had other charges of theft to face in another county, and now I suppose he may have charges for trying to break into the church…So I suppose that we can send old Dick to whatever country he needs to go to and face his crimes or we can take care of it here once found guilty. I guess since we are on the jury we will have it out and make a decision, but let’s not do that now. What would be the point? But I can see your point. Once one is guilty of death, how can another trial prove anything? As if a person can die more than once? Let’s just get it over with once and for all. That is my point.

I do not want any torture chambers: None for the goose, none for the gander. No human should torture any other human, or any living creature for that matter. Zero, nada, none, zilch, no torture. If any death sentence is to be carried out, it should be quick and humane. I want the same law to apply to all: legal criminals and illegal criminals.

The reason I went into the bad vs. wrong dissertation is because I think you think I think everyone is bad just because everyone has sinned or has the propensity to sin, so while you are thinking of legal criminals I am thinking from a Biblical perspective and think that is what you are countering.

Different subject today? How about if I go back and answer your reply from earlier this week. that I haven’t answered yet. I don’t know how far I will get. I type in Word and then copy all of it at once after I edit. I can’t type and think on the fly like you can and just take a break and come back. I might reorder some of my paragraphs before it is all said and done…

Joseph Thomas Kelley, do whatever you want to with the word Equitablist. I think you will define it and use it far better than I ever could. If you want to put it on your website, have at it. Not that I could ever tell you otherwise. I am just saying, it will not bother me abit and I am sorry I brought up all that stuff again. I just do not like it and it prevents me the liberty of using your website as my discretion kicks in to protect me. One last time I am saying, even though I said I wouldn’t, those entities are listed as members. Members of what? Members of your website. Members with you. They are your members while you are running for president. But then again, I sat by the girlfriend of a strip club owner at the Ron Paul rally I attended in Springfield. I wanted cover my boys ears sometimes as she spoke. But I guess, Liberty brings us all together. Who am I to say whether those women that work in that club are not completely happy and satisfied with what they are doing, or whether they are out of options and have nothing to sell but themselves. I am not them. Maybe they could join us in our endeavor to feed the starving. Why only 100? I think Greg P wants 200 before he starts his endeaver.

I don't know what to do. I have so many unanswered comments and I do not have the supply by me to answer them all. And now in this comment I have stated a bunch of questions, as if you are not allowed to answer. What should I do? I need your words of wisdom on the matter. I am not like you. I tend to be compulsive, so whatever I do, that is what I do until I do something else and then that gets my time. Perhaps that is why I spent so much time on the words voluntary vs. involuntary early on in our discussions. I feel as if most of my life is involuntary constrained by what must be done instead of what I want to do which right now is basically nothing.

...

Baseness or Principles?

"You will not have to face those false accusations again."

One of the first things I think whenever someone begins to challenge a point of view with a counter point of view is to think in terms of "put your money where your mouth is" and consider testing the facts.

That is what Josiah Warren did with Equitable Commerce, and in this case I can offer a counter view to your counter view but before I do so I think it is healthy to remind you of the night and day difference between a Despotic Consolidated Nation State with ONE Legal Fraud Money Monopoly Power and a Legally Competitive and adaptive Democratic Federated Republic.

Night:
Everyone does things my way without question, even if it is the wrongest way.

Day:
If it is the right way then more people will do it that way.

So the baseness of the Night has to do with All Men are Bad, so I (dictator wannabe) will be the one less evil exception and I will force everyone else to do things less evil.

The principle behind the Day is that if all men are bad then we are doomed, but since our numbers appear to be growing then some of us must actually be obeying God instead of the Devil, we are going forth and multiplying, not cutting each others throats from dark and hidden places in falsehood, so the good ones can manage to compete, adapt, and improve, to be better today than yesterday, if we can make it through the night, in the dark, where falsehood and greater evil, and even lesser evil, can hide their evil better.

So evil does employ principle, they adapt too, why is it night now, why is this a Consolidated Despotic Nation State with a Legal Fraud Money Monopoly Power Nation Wide?

Night is in force, night and day.

God's children, if I have this understood, are not supposed to wait for Jesus, they are supposed to go forth and multiply even during the night, and it isn't supposed to be a cake walk, so don't be fooled by the songs of paradise lurking in the foggy distance if only, if only, if only, you "provide the means by which we suffer" one more cent with Caesar's head stamped on the ONE MONEY.

The least good, in this case, it seems to me, is to question authority enough to think twice about joining the march to Iran, or sending your first born to Iran, to "Spread Democracy" or whatever sounds so wonderful currently toward that end.

You are not bad. You are already many steps ahead of the bell curve. But you are finding out, exactly, step by grueling step, how difficult it is to get past a closed loop. A closed loop is a lie that is defended vehemently by a believer in the lie. That is not the same thing as faith in God. That is, exactly, that closed loop is exactly, the result of prayers, over time, directed toward the false god, The Deceiver.

Back to the specific question:

"You will not have to face those false accusations again."

State A, call it Franklin or Montana, or any name, the name is a Legal Fiction, there is no such thing, as in a Person, or a Life Form, as this State, it is merely a way of saying: "All The People inside these recorded boundaries are hereby designated as The People inside these recorded boundaries." and a list of names is no longer needed to be called off one at a time without objection.

Run through that please, as a side note.

10 million names being called off and at about name 1,345 someone raises their hand and the name calling officer says what is it?

The person says: "I don't belong on that list, I'm just visiting, I'm actually on the New Jersey list."

OK, start over, or proceed from 1,344?

No, we call it Montana, it is easier, a Legal Fiction, not a False God, not a "Person-hood", not an entity having responsibility and therefore accountability. So if there is a war between Montana and Franklin, God forbid, then it is the list of names held to account because it is the list of names who are responsible, not Montana, and not Franklin.

Back to this:

"You will not have to face those false accusations again."

So Montana does Double Jeopardy really well, competitively well, and so Franklin tries to improve it but Montana says no, we don't do that here in Montana. Franklin, it turns out, is a county on the boarder of Montana and South Dakota, it turns out that way, supposing, and they secede from the Union, they splinter off, and they do so because that list of names in Franklin says so, they say no, no, no, we will do something different than Double Jeopardy, thanks, but no thanks.

What could be different? What could be the "beef" that drives the adaptation, and the resistance, and the secession, and the new State of Franklin within the Democratic Federated Republic?

Suppose there are a bunch of victims, and sympathizers of victims, who were being repeatedly victimized by people who were acquitted in Montana and the victims are then told to go away when they returned to say, hey, hey, hey, that trial was a mockery, and we have a "beef" with that, so we want to protect our lives and our liberties from those criminals, they are threatening us right now, here, here, here, and here, all on video tape, voice confessions, even written documents with the criminals signatures on it, where they are threatening us with the same crime.

Sorry, as far as "The Law" is concerned those people are not criminals, so they can't be tried again, sorry. I am so sorry, go away.

They go away. They move to Franklin, they set up a place where victims are not turned away when victims make an accusation or two, or three, and these former victims add an adaptive feature that works the same way for everyone, all the time, without exceptions, whereby a person falsely accused can seek payment of damages caused by the false accusers, and on top of that, as if that were not enough, these guys allow victims to accuse jurors of crimes against human beings who were made victims by jurors.

OH MY!

There you go again, ANARCHISTS!, blasphemers!, Heretics!, you silly, silly, silly, man, don't you know, everyone knows this, why you don't know I don't know, everyone knows, you can't allow just anyone to accuse anyone of anything because if you did, stupid, if you did that you stupid nitwit, then everyone would be accusing everyone of everything and there would be no time left to breath, nothing would get done, and we would all be starving to death fighting for the last morsel of food, cutting each others throats in a wild frenzy of CHAOS!

So that may not work, in Franklin, where the former victims give everyone the lawful power to accuse anyone else, ever, for crimes done, and the concept behind that is to except no one, because those who are excepted tend to gain too much power over everyone else and then rules change toward more exceptions and sooner or later the population is roughly split in half, those who are excepted and those who are not, and it typically turns out that those who are excepted are paid very well, very well rewarded, for making themselves exceptional, while those who actually produce things are doing the paying, the rewarding, and are not in The CLUB of those who spend everything of any value in the necessary work required to keep their exceptional exceptions accepted.

No, no, no, we love to be excepted and to be well insulated against The MOB with their accusations of wrongdoing, so run along, get back to work, there are taxes to be produced and then paid to us, and all of that shall not be questioned.

Run slave, run.

To work.

Yes that way.

No, not that way.

Yes, yes, that way.

Run slave run, to work, you owe more today than yesterday.

Run, slave, run, to work you go: I owe, I owe, so off to work I go, yes, yes, sing that song.

Let's sing together, shall we?

I owe, I owe, so off to work I go.

"But I am still sticking with once found guilty via true trial by jury, no further trial is necessary."

Death Penalties tend to work out that way. Does Double Jeopardy work to keep the family members of innocent dead people, killed by Jurors, from trying Jurors for Murder?

I think you may want to read Trial by Jury by Lysander Spooner and see just how far toward Just US this justice thing has grown.

When roughly half are excepted and roughly the other half are dupes who actually produce the stuff that "provides the means by which we suffer" then the rat race really begins to pick up steam and the rats eat each other, not just fellow rats, they eat everyone, including the people who produce the things needed for life.

When a rat picks out a target to consume, thinking, do they go for the weaker easy prey, or do they go for the more heavily defended targets - first?

How easy is it to get a person to pay a rat, you have earned something so pay me because I am a rat, and I will eat you if you don't pay me, so pay me, so that I can be a better rat?

What is the problem, pay me, without question?

There is a score board, and it is the official Nation Wide score board, so don't even reach for the you are nuts dude button.

Easy victims score board:

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Published by the Rats at Rat Central, on your dimes.

Now you can call me a nut case.

Hey Joe.

What?

You are a nut case dude.

Yea, yea, infectious isn't it?

How much do we owe now?

No time for those questions, I have to get back to work.

"As far as Dick Cheney, I don’t know what he has done, but he is innocent until proven guilty and if proven guilty then he must face his punishment"

It may be time to wake up and smell the roses. Dick Cheney is safe and secure, well insulated, there are no legal ways to try the case, according to him and his fellow RATS.

Which planet are you on?

"As far as Dick Cheney, I don’t know what he has done, but he is innocent until proven guilty and if proven guilty then he must face his punishment."

Once off this planet, I agree, he will be tried. His judgement day is still pending. That is my opinion.

"I guess since we are on the jury we will have it out and make a decision, but let’s not do that now. What would be the point?"

The point is to point out the lie. To see it. To know it. Once the lie is understood, then to provide for it. How can you provide for it, if your provisions are flowing to it, how can you defend against it while you are "providing the means by which we suffer"?

The lie is such that LAW is made by a man to be then applied by that man, or his group, upon other men, and women, without question.

That lie can arrive into a child's head, very early in life, in many ways, each way working like a cut upon the child's soul, and a million cuts add up, and if the soul suffers past a point of injury, then the child becomes incapable of self preservation, a closed loop, unless there is an external power that has the capacity to rescue the child, to expose the closed loop, and to then direct the child onto a self regulating path of self preservation which includes an accurate recognition of the vital need to find like minded people willing to share defensive power equitably, and to share productive power equitably, so as to make life better tomorrow than today, to go forth and multiply, and life continues instead of life being a lie whereby the lie causes the victims inflicted with the lie to "provide the means by which they suffer" to evil people, or RATS.

Someone once smelled a RAT, and that NEWS is suppressed by people who are RATS.

"I guess since we are on the jury we will have it out and make a decision, but let’s not do that now. What would be the point?"

I agree. Right now the POINT is to figure out how to help other people know better, to know better than to "provide the means by which we suffer", and that can't be that difficult.

A lost cause, for example, is someone who will vehemently defend their "right" to make you pay your power to The IRS. They pay, and therefore you had better pay too, and if you don't pay, well, ve have vays of making you pay, me and my army.

Your army?

Yes, my army, I've been paying into my army, at The IRS, my entire working life, so yes, me and my army will find ways to make you pay.

So pay.

No, no, no, you can't question payments.

Pay.

Don't make me call 911.

Pay.

Pay.

Pay.

Don't you get it yet?

Pay.

What, you refuse?

Pay (but if you don't pay, don't get caught).

What?

What did you say?

Pay.

No the part in parenthesis, what did you whisper to that other juror?

Nothing, nothing, nothing, just pay, that shall not be questioned.

Pay.

No, really, what did you just whisper to that "fellow" juror, something about not getting caught?

Pay.

No, I protest.

Unleash the Dogs of War!

Bailiff! Bailiff! That one is stepping out of line, muzzle him.

"Once one is guilty of death, how can another trial prove anything? As if a person can die more than once? Let’s just get it over with once and for all. That is my point."

And my point, on that point, is to point out how a true proponent of this Death Penalty won't need to dirty anyone's hands but their own. If you can't choke the life out of the guilty person yourself, it seems to me, then you are a false supporter of The Death Penalty.

I support clean toilets, so long as I don't have to clean toilets.

Yea right.

At that point I smell a RAT, or infestation of rattiness in the form of a belief in a lie.

"If any death sentence is to be carried out, it should be quick and humane. I want the same law to apply to all: legal criminals and illegal criminals."

That is fine by me so long as you throw that first stone, get up, go to the convicted, and humanely take the life out of it, or him, or her, but make it quick, so you had better plan well, because life can be resilient. You may want to use a gun, and if you do then aim well. You don't want a lot of squirming around, thrashing, and such. That would not set well with your conscience, and the next one, and the next one, keep doing the good work, do it better next time, and the next time, have at it, sister, have at it, fine by me.

Get to work. God's work.

There is a long line of convicts, guilty all, and they need you.

Hack away.

Make it quick.

If you spend a year or two hacking away, I'll take my turn for a year too. Is that a deal?

Will we be better off at the end of our tour of duty, having done God's work?

Hack, hack, hack.

Bullets?

I'm going to use hollow point 44 magnums with my Ruger carbine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87CCvR7e5YE

The barrel may wear out before the end of the year.

Deterrence must prevail!

Next.

What is your preferred method? What will you start out with, something lethal and quick as you say, but what, what is your preferred method on the first one, when the rubber meets the road?

You see, I'm not God's children. I'm one of those sick bastards who may actually like shooting off an arm first if the guilty is guilty of torturing and murdering millions of people for fun and profit, for a few more cheeseburgers, a larger drink, and a Golden Parachute.

But I entertain the possibility that I would not have the stomach for it, after the first, maybe less queezy about it after the second conviction and execution, maybe by the time I've managed to execute 100 convicted bad guys, a few bad girls perhaps, I can sleep at night?

I don't know, but I don't expect anyone else to do what I can't, or won't do, that would be, well it would be what it would be, if there is a word for it.

Delegation?

I'm still not buying that point, exactly. Perhaps a change of subject is in order.

Having to kill someone because the target volunteered me to be dead, and at that point in that process, that process invented by the criminal who targets me, that process produced by the criminal who targets me, or my loved ones, leaves me no choice, kill or be killed, kill the criminal or allow the criminal to kill my loved one's, and me having no other viable option at that moment, and God willing I pull the trigger, the murdering criminal is dead, and I am not, and my loved ones are not, dead wannabe murderer, alive me, and alive loved ones of mine, well, that is not the same thing as "support for the death penalty", is it?

Would there be any idle talk of support or no support for hiring executioners ready to execute convicted criminals if each one of us had the temerity, the self preservation POWER, to stop the criminals in their tracks, instead of hiding behind a lie that inspires us to call for "help", "help", the enemy is at the gate, now at the door, now inside, ohhh, ohhhhh, oohhhh, what can I do, oohhhh, ohhhhhh, I'll call 911, that is all I can doooooooo, I'm so weak, I'm soooooooo powerless, I'm soooooooo defenseless, like a sitting duck, ohhhh, ooooooohhhh, my, my, my, look at what a pathetic target I am.

Please.

My wife picked up the ruger, loaded it, and called 911. This was a while ago. The dead beat looking guy in the fenced yard left, the officer of the peace showed up. He asked my wife to unload the gun. She did, and the police officer had already talked to the "prowler" and sent him on his way. My wife had called me up first. I reminded her of the process of arming yourself, which has to be practiced, not easy, not something like having a gun loaded and holstered on our hips all day and night, but a process that deters crime.

How many of those Death Row convicts, guilty or not, who knows, I don't, would be alive were their victims not such pathetic targets ripe for "providing the means by which" they obviously suffered?

Show up at my door, ready to make me a victim, and I'll be so helpless, cowering in the corner, hiding behind skirts, and lies, and pathetic belief in a higher power stepping in to save me at the last minute, and all I have to do is send money to those "protectors" of my Liberty?

Please.

I'm back on my soap box. Ranting, and in the wrong thread. What happened to your Rant thread?

I may be in the wrong thread here with this diatribe.

Please excuse me, I don't mean to target you for execution. I'm shooting around in the dark with my shot gun, and it isn't very smart, not at all accurate, and potentially damaging to my own well being.

I'm being honest. I've been told that I am honest to a fault. Go figure, or make sense of that claim - I can't.

"The reason I went into the bad vs. wrong dissertation is because I think you think I think everyone is bad just because everyone has sinned or has the propensity to sin, so while you are thinking of legal criminals I am thinking from a Biblical perspective and think that is what you are countering."

No, when you engage your brain it works very well, better than mine, so those things I read that sound to me like you are merely parroting things you have heard, then I speak up, I offer a possible angle of view that may be valid concerning that specific thing, and I try to be very specific, using quotes, and then I go off on rants.

Discussion is a process, trial and error, with much in the way of error, or so it seems.

"I am not them. Maybe they could join us in our endeavor to feed the starving. Why only 100? I think Greg P wants 200 before he starts his endeaver."

100 is part of a concept that may be best conveyed from me to you intact if the right word is picked.

Modular

Cellular

I don't know the right word. Take modular and think in terms of a Modular Farm compared to a conventional farm.

You have 100 acres of land and you can farm 3 fourths while 1 fourth is resting or being re-fertilized, or, you can place 100 Modular Greenhouse Farming Units inside those 100 acres.

If one Modular unit is infected with a disease, which would be hard to do because each Unit is insulated, and well protected, but it can happen, then all the other units may not be infected since things are Modular, not all joined as one.

What works at smaller levels may not always work at larger levels and each smaller level can work as a competitive example for the other smaller levels, like cells in the body, whereby each cell is basically the same thing, but each cell is independent and each cell may be specialized at doing other things.

Instead of making only corn, the Modular Greenhouse Farming Unit Farm may be 100 different crops all growing at the same time. If corn prices can be jacked up to the highest price ever jacked up by a well meaning capitalist farmer, due to a sudden increase in the demand for corn, due to everyone else on the planet failing to make another corn cob, then the farmer making only corn wins big, and the Modular Green House Vertical Farming Unit Farmer only wins with 1 of the Modular Units making corn BIG. But, on the other hand, if Corn prices fall into the dirt, because corn goes out of fashion or everyone and their mom bet on corn scarcity, and corn profits rising to the roof, and corn is everywhere, and no one wants corn, then the farmer making only corn is broke and in need of some credit so as to make something other than corn next year, while the Modular Vertical Green House Farming Unit Farmer only looses one Unit worth of corn, but he may like corn, so he has his own corn, no matter what anyone else may be doing with their home supply, or their export crop.

Why think in terms of having only 1 "government" that supposedly applies to everyone all the time without question?

If 100 people govern themselves well enough, what they do well may actually work the same way for 100 more people downtown - or not.

What does work well for everyone?

Thou shalt each torture each other until everyone is dead?

100 people try that in their isolated modular cell that is only partially connected to everyone else, and the infection gets out and now everyone Nation Wide has to torture each other until everyone is dead?

Is that common sense or the evil twin lesser of two evils false version of it?

"I don't know what to do. I have so many unanswered comments and I do not have the supply by me to answer them all. And now in this comment I have stated a bunch of questions, as if you are not allowed to answer. What should I do? I need your words of wisdom on the matter. I am not like you."

You are not like me and that is a blessing. No one should be like me, certainly not the bad parts of me, so thank God!

As to our discussion, it can end now, or another sentence can be offered, and then another until it does end. Providence to me is not the part I can control. I have a constant drive to do the right thing and that has always been the case as far as I can remember and having some doubts, to "keep me honest", drives me to keep looking for evidence that helps me know better from worse.

What is the point?

Go forth and multiply, make today better than yesterday, make tomorrow better than today, and it appears to me to be a sound measure of betterness to avoid harming anyone along the way, if not for those harmed, if not for their sake, then for my sake because harm I cause to others will harm may capacity to know better.

I can harm someone and in so doing I become less powerful in knowing better. I can injure my capacity for empathy. If I injure my capacity for empathy as I harm more and more people then I can no longer put myself in their shoes and I would then be limited to having only my own perception as a guide.

That, as far as I know, is not God's plan.

We are here to help each other, because there is no other way to survive well, to go forth and multiply, we must learn to help each other, and that is the opposite of going forth and destroying, where we learn how to target each other, exploit each other, and harm each other.

We can't go both ways at the same time.

We can claim to be going one way while we are going the opposite way, and that is called duplicity or falsehood.

I want so much to get off that Long Black Train that my life is being spent knowing exactly what it is and how to get off of it.

The reaching for that goal is not all negative, since more and more of the wrong doors close, sure, but more and more of the right doors open.

I don't have to think in terms of I owe, I owe, so off to work I go, collecting Federal Reserve Notes.

I don't have to think in terms of bemoaning the tax evaders who are supposedly getting something for nothing.

I can think in terms of learning how to play the guitar and then learning how to teach someone how to play the guitar.

I have time left. I've been given more than one second chance, like a cat working on life 8.

You may be working on life 2, being born again, I don't know about that stuff. I may be able to learn how thinking works in those shoes, but not on my own.

I need help.

That does not make me weak.

That makes me human.

Joe

Unengaged

I think I am fighting being sick from the cats in the house at my sister's. Every since I had cancer I am allergic to cats. I finally got myself out of the house today and had lunch with Jeff and went to the grocery store. I wouldn't have done it if I hadn't had papers that the school needed. I am either getting sick or depressed, so I hope it is sick. I have had such a bad headache I couldn't bend over this morning. But finally I have taken some medicine and am feeling better, but I am still very tired. Tired like having cancer, or fibromyalgia. That kicks in from time to time.

I don't want this to be the last sentence, but I don't know how to manage our discussions because I haven't kept up. I think my down fall was when I created that agreeable post. I had too much to keep up with. You won’t tell me what to do, will you…Even if I ask for direction?

And now I am asking: Which do you think I should read first: Spooner's Trial by Jury or Andrews Labor Dollars?

I cannot cast the first stone, probably not any stone unless I or those I love are directly and personally threatened. But I guess the idea is that that criminal, if proven guilty of murder, is a threat to me and very one else, and I delegate the right to the state, but that is not OK so by you so maybe all 12 jurors by blind sortition should pull the leaver. Maybe that would make the jury make sure an innocent person was not put to death. Anyways, In my first offering of this example the criminal was someone who tortures and kills men, boys, woman and children and eats them or whatever. I was speaking of illegal murders and the subject was changed to the subject of legal criminals.

I looked at the library today to see if they had History of Socialism by Stephen Pearl Andrews. They didn't. They didn't have any of his writings. Why can’t you find that writing of his? Have you seen it before? That Co-Operation link I gave you was the History of Co-Operation in England from the 1850's or so. There was a term: Equitable Pioneer used. (I searched for the word equitable. The word socialism was also mentioned.)

I guess you and me were the only ones left ranting. You can rant anytime you like, anywhere. Anyways, I hope the barrel of that guy’s gun was OK. Something about where the extractor sits. I am not gun savvy, but I have shot before and can hit a target. I even got to shoot my cousin’s powder musket or whatever it was called. I’ve never used a handgun though. I had fun with my b b gun when I was 8 or 9.

...

Break time?

"And now I am asking: Which do you think I should read first: Spooner's Trial by Jury or Andrews Labor Dollars?"

Did you once mention in this discussion something along the lines of having an interest in science fiction?

http://www.amazon.com/Enders-Game-Ender-Book-1/dp/0812550706

My recommendation is to take a break and read a novel idea, something that may help balance out the doom and gloom?

Joe

A break :)

http://www.amazon.com/Enders-Game-Ender-Book-1/dp/0812550706...
Is this supposed to make me happy:

"In order to develop a secure defense against a hostile alien race's next attack, government agencies breed child geniuses and train them as soldiers. A brilliant young boy, Andrew "Ender" Wiggin lives with his kind but distant parents, his sadistic brother Peter, and the person he loves more than anyone else, his sister Valentine. Peter and Valentine were candidates for the soldier-training program but didn't make the cut--young Ender is the Wiggin drafted to the orbiting Battle School for rigorous military training.

Ender's skills make him a leader in school and respected in the Battle Room, where children play at mock battles in zero gravity. Yet growing up in an artificial community of young soldiers, Ender suffers greatly from isolation, rivalry from his peers, pressure from the adult teachers, and an unsettling fear of the alien invaders. His psychological battles include loneliness, fear that he is becoming like the cruel brother he remembers, and fanning the flames of devotion to his beloved sister. "

Sadistic brother and suffering from isolation, rivalry and pressure. It sounds like a nightmare.

How about http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0446537527/ref=sr_1_s...

Tonight we are going to pop popcorn and watch Apollo 13 with the boys. The library had a copy for $1. No Ron Paul books there either.

I forgot to say, that must have been scary for your wife with the prowler.

...

Race organizer?

"Now we pay everyone to sit on their butts on their porches all day and they are obese and dependent on a free life. It is sad, so I think we should add those folks to the unemployed and the starving."

Pay attention to the words you think.

Do you pay anyone anything? When you pay someone something, you pay someone something, and that can be accurately known down to fine detail or that can be accurately known in a casual, ambiguous, lazy, kind of, sort of, half fast, nearly understood, confused, misguided, and even destructive sense, almost as if there are two people occupying your mind.

One of you knows better, and the other one of you is not "at the helm", and is therefore not knowing quite as well as the other one of you.

So which one of you thinks in terms of "we" paying people to sit on their butts?

Are you really that cruel?

Do you really pay people so as to reward them to become obese, lazy, misdirected, as if you are farming people? You are growing a crop of fat, lazy, obese, misguided, parasites?

You are doing this, and you are doing this as part of a group of people who think the same way as you do, and therefore "we" are doing this, this paying, this method of creating obesity, sloth, meaninglessness?

I am not on that bus. I never got on that bus. I won't get on that bus. If, somehow, I do those things, paying people to be obese, as if that were my goal, then I'd work to know better, and I'd stop, at the very least stop, thinking in those terms.

Your words confess a deeper infection, if you can take this level of criticism, which I can't, my ego is too big, and that may be why I strike out at people who prop themselves up as my critic, and are pathetic at that work compared to me. I am my own worst critic, until a more critical view is in view. I don't like someone else being better at being my worst critic, but I don't like someone else counterfeiting as my worst critic even worse.

Enough about me...

This:

"Now we pay everyone to sit on their butts on their porches all day and they are obese and dependent on a free life. It is sad, so I think we should add those folks to the unemployed and the starving."

Not only has your power to authorize the publication of messages written in English been misled into gather up all the mice into "we" in the pockets of a few that order these payments to farm people into obesity, not only that, but you go on to authorize a personal preference to unemploy and starve people?

"We" if you were signing the order would fire all those employed people and you would sign the order that would lead to their starvation?

I don't know how to read English, so I can certainly use your help in figuring out exactly what you mean with those symbols arranged in that specific order by you.

This:

"Now we pay everyone to sit on their butts on their porches all day and they are obese and dependent on a free life. It is sad, so I think we should add those folks to the unemployed and the starving."

That is the doubleganger version of you in direct opposition to this:

"I also say if we were able to keep our earnings and not send 6+ months to the Federal Government, we would be creating jobs with the extra income and those people could work for themselves and keep their labor."

Those are opposing directions.

1. Direction (investing in destruction)
We farm people and turn them into our image, we make them as we will them to be, according to our plan.

"Now we pay everyone to sit on their butts on their porches all day and they are obese and dependent on a free life. It is sad, so I think we should add those folks to the unemployed and the starving."

2. Direction (Not 1)
"I also say if we were able to keep our earnings and not send 6+ months to the Federal Government, we would be creating jobs with the extra income and those people could work for themselves and keep their labor."

Is it possible to go in two opposite directions at the same time?

What happens to a person who is pulled one way with as much power as a person is being pulled the opposite way?

What happens to a person who is pushing themselves one way while as much power is being exerted by some external power in the opposite direction at the same time?

What happens to a person who is unaware of a seed, in the form of a deception, that was planted in their brain at birth, and over time that seed has grown into a false "theory" of political economy based upon the concept that all men are bad and therefore there needs to be one exceptionally less bad, lesser of two evils, riding in to save the day?

I don't think that the planter of that false seed, if it explains what I see as duplicity in your words, is Jesus, or God, rather the planters, the farmers, in this case are people who walk the earth, and they can be called by their given names, by their assumed counterfeit names, or by a group name that accurately identifies them for what they do, as they farm other people, making other people weak, powerless, and ready for exploitation, and that is crime, and that is made legal, so these people, with these names, on Earth, can be called Legal Criminals, or Fried Chicken for all I care, but their work may have impeded your otherwise wonderful process of life, so consider the advice to know better than to say these two things as if these two things were both things that you think at the same time (they are opposites):

1.
"Now we pay everyone to sit on their butts on their porches all day and they are obese and dependent on a free life. It is sad, so I think we should add those folks to the unemployed and the starving."

Opposite:
2.
"I also say if we were able to keep our earnings and not send 6+ months to the Federal Government, we would be creating jobs with the extra income and those people could work for themselves and keep their labor."

To be more specific:

"dependent on a free life"

Do you really think that obese people, farmed into obesity, due to their own weaknesses, and having that weakness preyed upon by stronger people, leading to a condition of life where in some cases the person is 900 pounds of ripe, weak, human flesh, and that is somehow considered by someone as being "free"?

I am fat. I want 10 cheeseburgers.

I don't want to be fat. I want 10 cheeseburgers.

I am going to die a lot sooner since I am so damn fat.

I want 20 cheeseburgers all at once.

That is free?

200 pounds.

300 pounds.

400 pounds.

Is it possible that such a person has been disarmed, where their personal sense of right and wrong is at odds, where demons lurk in the form of some deception planted soon after birth, an inner battle that continues all through life, having rendered the independent mind incapable of solving the most obvious problems without resort to external directions, orders from the top, a dire need to read from some script?

Who planted those seeds? How about someone like Edward Bernays? Certainly not the first farmer, but the point may be worth entertaining.

I've been lagging behind in responses to the welcome, very welcome, angles of view that compete in this discussion, and I have a few chores today that cannot be put off, and so this current effort will not be sufficient to catch up, but the Iron is Hot and so I'm going to Iron some. When I get to a breaking point I will type 'break' in capitals. This way I may be able to keep track of where I've left off in these various angles of competitive viewpoints that are competitive examples of discussion (Where are better examples of competitive discussion?)

There is one other angle on this duplicity, seed planting, invasion and occupation of deception into human brains by deceivers in human form that concerns the concept of false authority.

Suppose the obese fat person who can't stop eating is a victim of a concerted effort to farm people into willing slaves and part of the invasive seed planting, or brain washing, or response conditioning, or behavioral modification, or mass mind control, concerns the tactic of making the targeted victim believe that they alone, that victim is, the target is, the target, alone, is, in their own mind, the absolute authority over everything?

Mr. Know it All?

How does that work, if that is working?

Mr. Know it All admits of only ONE authority, and that is what Mr. Know it All says is true, at any given moment.

Moment A.
I am fat, therefore I will not eat another thing, I sentence me to starve until I am no longer fat, and that is it, that is the law of this land.

Moment B.
I want 10 cheeseburgers now, and that is the final word, that is what will be, and there shall be no questioning that fact.

The true authority in actual fact is a calorie count of what is fed into the life form and then the irrefutable measure of living MASS which is measured relative to gravity as weight. The true authority in that situation is not a pretense of authority governed by a duplicitous mind, trained to be so obviously self-destructive, weak, and vulnerable.

In science it is called a closed loop; whereby the power to authorize a more productive path is shunted, or closed off, by a false belief in absolute authority based upon a lie.

I am right no matter what, and that shall not be questioned.

The deceiver becomes the deceived?

I can have my cake and eat it too?

Something can be had for nothing?

Please consider my observations as a competitive angle of view, not as an authority on anything, and if it looks like your thinking may be improved on this angle of seeing possible self-contradictions, then I can step aside as messenger, and the viewpoint can be adopted or left behind.

"We" as far as I know are "providing the means by which we suffer", and then our investments turn out to be our demise, so "we" can continue down this road or we can get off of it, and once off of it the directions we can go are many competitively productive ones, not ONE very destructive ONE (One that is duplicitous for the victims, not necessarily duplicitous at all for the Legal Criminals who know better than to fall for their inventive closed loop).

BREAK

Joe

Breaking In

On my sister's computer so I am going to save often. I'll tell you when I am done.

"There used to be something called “poor farms” here in Missouri. I don’t know much about them, but I guess that is where people when and they worked together I suppose to keep from starving. Now we pay everyone to sit on their butts on their porches all day and they are obese and dependent on a free life. It is sad, so I think we should add those folks to the unemployed and the starving. I also say if we were able to keep our earnings and not send 6+ months to the Federal Government, we would be creating jobs with the extra income and those people could work for themselves and keep their labor. Instead all of our 6 months and their 6 months goes to pay just to survive…food and housing, maybe a little bit of entertainment."

Of course I can take your Critique. I am used to it :) and look for it.

Now, I was laughing so hard the kids wanted to know what I was laughing about...

I am adding the people who are dependent on free money to the unemployed and starving people that we are going to help. I am not going to starve them. I want to make them apart of our project. I said "we" without even realizing it. But I suppose I think we because we pay more than 6 months in taxes and some people do not work. They can do something, anything, pull weeds in the garden wash the vegetables go feed the starving. Anything. I am not disparaging them. I said it is sad. It is sad because they are trapped in a lifestyle and cannot seem to get out. They are trapped in that lifestyle because I pay taxes and those taxes pay them. We means we who pay taxes, pay them. I realize the criminals are doing it, but if I give my gun to a known killer...well, how much responsibility should I receive for the death of an innocent?

Sure, the criminals steal my money, but instead of going to jail so I can keep my money, I allow them to take my money and put poor obese people in "prison" to a system that does not give them a hand up, but a boot on the kneck so they stay down. My statement was kind but blunt. I want them to join us, learn how to work, be a part of something bigger than they are. Let them help us as give the unemplyed jobs, and feed the starving with us. OK? Is that OK Team Leader? Joe, it is just hard to drive by the house across from the bank and have 4 or 5 grown adults sitting out on the porch sweating and eating and having nothing to do but cash a monthly check. It is hard because when I was working I was working day and night. Jeff works 3 extra jobs in addition to his pastorate, and the poor amoung us are not taught to work or have a work ethic. It is to our demise as well as theirs. I never had these thoughts until moving to a small town where we all see each other. Poor and working all in the same little area. I do not dispise those on welfare, I dispise the system that they are trapped in. Their cildren are put on disability right away and they don't work. They get people pregnant then I pay WIC so the children can eat and the fathers go to jail after getting someone else pregnant. All the time not working at all. That is not a made up story. That is the truth and only a small segment of truth because I do not know everyones business, nor do I try to. I try to be kind and helpful and I think if they join our team they will be helped, and so will we. I am sorry my sentence was so poorly written. OK?

DONE TIL YOU ARE :)