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July 4th 2013 Liberty Day Challenge

Two directions are possible from this moment on as proven by historical precedent. Either be subjected to suffering by Legalized Criminals and be forced to pay all debts collected in that evil enterprise or move in the direction of Liberty.

Make my day.

How about July 4th 2013?

If by that date the American people, as one, have invented, produced, and supplied a number of competitive legal monies, then those American people will take back their power to prosper, at will, for their own and for posterity.

Sign on in spirit or sign on in actual reality, either way the days will move in a direction and the Legal Criminals score their progress with or without your willful participation toward their goal of absolute despotism.

May God have mercy on our souls.

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Proverbs 8

I'm still working on The Fear of God being the Hatred of Evil.

I'm not even sure that I have that memorized, or understood.

Joe

Memorizing

Before I read this comment here I had a little to say about the Fear of the Lord on your new Candidate question post. Looks like you are getting nice action over there! Looks like will wrote you back on the goode post too. He wrote me back about legal crime, I figure it was a concept I could discuss somewhat. He didn't agree so I wrote him some more about it. If he still can't accept it..oh well, to each his own.

Psalms 119:11 Thy word have hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee.

Psalms 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.

It is good to memorize scripture. There is also a verse that says his word will not return unto him void. I need to look that one up:
• Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please , and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please , and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

In my power oriented mind that sounds like a seed creating a plant and then the plant creating many seeds, and the many seeds creating many more plants, and the many more plants creating many more seeds.

Joe

Why Josf, you are doing your own Bible Study!

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
__________________________
And also know that by his very Word, God spoke things into being as found in Genesis 1.

Also John 1:1 & 14 tells us that Jesus is the word: In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God...And the word became flesh and dwelt among us (from memory may not be perfect quote)

More on the Word being very powerful
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick , and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart
______________________
Scripture is supposed to be used to interpret Scripture; i.e. each verse is not a stand alone. There is probably a fancy word for that, but Jeff is sleeping now so I will not ask what that word is. Your power trained mind did the right thing by connecting "the Word" from one passage to "the Word" in another passage!

Clean up on isle 3

"Scripture is supposed to be used to interpret Scripture; i.e. each verse is not a stand alone. There is probably a fancy word for that, but Jeff is sleeping now so I will not ask what that word is. Your power trained mind did the right thing by connecting "the Word" from one passage to "the Word" in another passage!"

Thanks Bear, having been alone for so long in equitable discussions on forums it may be becoming an over dependence of mine upon your time and energy (power), like a plant without water, then experiencing rain.

Those words in quote, to me, express an shared understanding if the understanding is such that there is no power in words, no power in symbols, the power OF words is in our souls, and the words, and the symbols and the sounds are merely conduits between souls, and the power of meaning must therefore be other than being contained in the words, and this is exemplified with that word: word.

God or Jesus or Word are symbols, stand-ins, labels, garb, wrappers, sign posts, instructions, road signs, and bread crumbs placed along the path leading to or from the actual things that are actually powerful.

How can you transfer the meaning of God, or Jesus, from your own sphere of influence, your own soul, which is again just a word written in text intending to convey the meaning that is the you that was born, and is now living, and will some day no longer be in living form, your soul, intending to convey the meaning of God, and Jesus, to another human being, another soul, how to, how do you manage to accomplish that goal, if not with a connecting medium such as English Language, and a word or two?

God

Jesus

I think that I can understand some of the intended meanings, and I prefer not to pretend to have the authority to speak instead of you concerning what you intend to say, which brings me around to the clean up on isle 3 in a one sided argument that appears to be forming in the text exchanged between the forum member Will and the forum member Joe Kelley, me, or Josf for short.

Am I not demonstrably here supplying equitable discussion?

Can I be so wrong concerning my understanding of my own true motives to be, in fact, supplying argument instead of equitable discussion?

A fellow forum member has, apparent to me at least, convicted me of being argumentative, and that fellow forum member has already executed a public hanging of my good name, and in more ways than that one count.

So, I'm asking, for your capacity as a practicing juror, a peer, in this case, please.

Was is justifiable to execute upon me the discredit of me being argumentative, and there is the as yet fleshed out case of me being accused of misquoting a document which may have escaped my memory among the many words I've published on this forum.

I may be guilty of misquoting, but for the life of me, I can't imagine me doing such a dastardly thing.

Joe

Before the BREAK

So as to avoid interrupting your progress in offering your welcome viewpoint I cut and pasted my reply to the unfinished message and the following is sent in this way (reply to my own Clean up on isle 3).

"So from my own experience what I am trying to say is do you feel attacked by will’s words?"

The routine I find so troubling, not matter who, or what, repeats the routine, is dictatorial, or one way, communication.

Does such a thing exist?

Can a message be dictatorial?

How about evidence?

"Only that you misquoted the document and misrepresented its meaning."

Above, to me, is a case in point. The message, no matter the source, in my opinion there is no need to focus any attention on the producer and publisher of the message, when judging the message for meaning, so the message is a case in point when seeking an example of a dictatorial message.

I'm not even claiming that anything is wrong with dictation, since messages must be, at times, dictatorial, mere statements of fact, such as a parent telling a child "do not play on the busy highway" and "do not look at the sun", and "do not bully the other kids on the playground at school".

Example 2:

"But please don't quote Magna Carta in support of your argument to say things that it doesn't actually say."

That is, to me, very deceptive, as it appears to be polite, nice, and suggestive, a request, while to me that exemplifies, again, dictation.

The dictated message appears to be factual, again, like Do not bully innocent people, or, you have bullied innocent people, so do not do that again, please.

Ok, so I get it, it is wrong to bully people, and it is wrong to misquote an author, and there needs to be no trial as to the validity of the message when the message is such that a fact is stated and the fact is that bullying and misquoting is wrong.

Who bullied anyone?

Who misquoted anyone?

What is the meaning of the word projection?

What is the meaning of the word transference?

What is the meaning of the word dictation?

What does a dictator do, so as to be a dictator?

When the message published is such that I am convicted of misquoting then I see a dictator at work when, in fact, no such misquoting has been done by me, yet, again, that is the dictatorial message as such:

"Only that you misquoted the document and misrepresented its meaning."

I've seen this often. I can recognize the tactics being employed, willingly, or knowingly, or even out of habit, it makes no difference to me, while I inspect the message, caring not as to the actual motive in mind concerning the messenger.

The message has the properties of launderability or plausible deniability, since there is no use of actual quotes. There isn't even a name placed on the intended target of the message. A reader has to assume that the message targets Joe Kelley, which can be wrong, since the message does not specifically target anyone as being the one who did, in fact, misquote and misrepresent meaning.

Who misquoted?

Who misrepresented?

The evidence I see, so far, appears to support a competitive viewpoint whereby the author of the dictatorial message is the person who is misrepresenting me, and therefore this is a classic case of transference or projection.

In the act of misrepresenting me the person confesses that he is guilty of doing exactly what he convicts me of doing.

That is the way I read the sentence, the message, the arrangement of symbols and what is the typical, or average, or expected, reaction when someone, you, me, John Doe, anyone, when someone is being convicted for doing something they are innocent of doing?

What is the feeling a person is expected to feel when someone else convicts them unjustly?

I understand this tactic, so I avoid the expected feelings, and therefore I avoid the Conditioned Response, as if someone were planning on starting a Flame War and they provide the fuel, and they provide the match, and they light the match, and they throw gasoline on the fire.

I can imagine all that from that message, and rather than confront a person who wrote the message, concerning my imagined motives read into the message, I think it is better to merely ask for clarification.

Where is the evidence that supports the conviction that I am guilty of misquoting and misrepresenting anything?

Why go down this road at all?

On whose account is progress down this path charged?

What is the point?

"Do you take his criticism or his point of view too personally?"

If Will is on a hit and run mission, as may or may not be the case, it matters not to me, not much, not compared to pressing concerns, I have Jury Duty today at 12, my brother in law is recovering from spinal surgery, my daughter has had her world turned up-side-down as her supposed boyfriend dumped her, my mother is dying more rapidly each day, my guitar is not being played enough, debt looms, World War III looms, Liberty is being lost, and this Will guy is playing me for a fool?

Triage?

If Will is on a hit and run mission then I get the bad press and he changes the subject. That is familiar, I did not just fall off the turnip truck.

Joe

I am replying here.

Looks like I can’t even keep a consecutive post going anymore LOL. Sorry about that. I will try to make some sense of where I should be tomorrow.

I had anesthesia today so I am not going to be long. I am still pretty tired.

I was hoping you would be able to tell me something about jury duty. I like your words, “I am here to avoid abandoning the victim and avoid convicting an innocent man.” You sound like the perfect juror to me. Maybe both legal representatives were afraid of your good intentions? Maybe excusal is a Godsend and your power is needed elsewhere.

I re read the conversation between you and will. Honestly I can’t even find where he says he is quoting Magna Carta, but that may be my bad. I only got to chapter 2 in Spooner’s work where he began to dissect the latin words. Honestly I don’t know what to think. I don’t even know why I brought up Warren this morning except I was trying to say it is hard for 2 people to communicate in this written medium because intensions are filtered thru one’s own personal background without the emphasis, emotion, or facial expression of the other party.

I can see maybe what you see that will made some quotes and statements towards you and said thanks for the debate, good bye. Shutting the door to further understanding by either person.

Are you wanting me to do something. I am not as smart as you or will. I have to read and re=read and then I may not understand. Plus I think I am speaking to you from an emotional level instead of a rational and intellectual level about this whole will thing and I do not know what to say now.

Interest in equity

Being driven by an interest in equity is not the same thing as being drive away from iniquity - necessarily.

There are times and places where Will shows up in a form that causes an innocent person injury.

Why is Will Power used willfully to cause an innocent person injury?

The degree of which the injury is measured on a scale is not relevant to the question, from a small insult to massive torture and massive murder, there is a principle involved, the same principle or two, and then variations on that theme.

I think you should make the best of what God gave you, and set a fine example worth copy.

Take care, and I will have other things to ask and answer with your help, if possible, so fear only evil, not trivial things such as your possible adverse affects upon me or anyone else, it seems to me that you are an equitable person, a Standard of Value.

Thanks.

Joe

What if

Josf, what if will was not intending to cause injury?

These are the words you said in another post http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2745423 :
____________________________
"How is it, despite my pleas for mercy, that my state of being ignorant, concerning my condemnation of guilt, is unanswered, and how is it that I am being kept in this State of being guilty, condemned, and at the same time ignorant concerning my guilt and my condemnation, despite my expressed desire to know better?

I am facing my accuser, asking for mercy, and what is the verdict piled onto the already executing public condemnation of my guilt in this matter?

Is my plea for knowledge concerning my guilt answered accurately, leaving no doubt as to my guilt, and is my plea for knowledge concerning my guilt, my public condemnation, a speedy, just, answer issued by my accuser, a merciful response?

If I were squirming on a table, racked with uncertainty, as to the full nature of my guilt, doubting myself, leaving myself at the mercy of self doubt, concerning my guilt, writhing in pain in my self aware darkness, my ambiguous state of uncertain guilt, raining down upon my soul, tortured, terrified, and horrified by such massive doses of self doubt, if that were the case, on this table made by my accuser, would by accuser then find cause to put me out of my misery, or would my accuser prefer to screw the rack tighter, and issue more doubt, more condemnation, piled unto the already growing pile of condemnations?"
________________________________
Those words were overwhelming for me. I do not know if you are saying them sarcastically or if those words express the position you were finding yourself.

Discoveries?

"Josf, what if will was not intending to cause injury?"

Then I would no longer be hanging on the edge of my seat, and I would no longer be experiencing this injury caused by these baseless (as far as I know) public convictions of my guilt? I would be set well by Will when he answers the question honestly and then, in fact, I am no longer being injured by Will?

Retraction or clarification sets things right again?

"Josf, what if will was not intending to cause injury?"

So, naturally, asking may be a way to find out?

"Those words were overwhelming for me. I do not know if you are saying them sarcastically or if those words express the position you were finding yourself."

Many years ago, too many to count, or call it hours, days, months, or call it words offered to other people in the vain, or vital, or competitive effort to know better, and instead of being welcomed I am being attacked, at first, the reactions I experienced, in my own individual perceptive sphere, was more devastating to me, but I've grown acclimatized to the facts of Modern Times, where equitable inventions, products, and offerings are met with dictatorial answers.

The principles remain the same, if the degree at which each dictate arouses self condemnation is smaller now, or if the heart felt injury of each false public condemnation drains the life out of me less than before, and now I can grow some, ahhh, courage, and keep Standing despite the storm, it IS that, in my view.

It is not sarcasm on my part to falsify my principles, if that is what you mean, to reject the value of principles, if that could be something I do willfully, no, no, no, to make light is because it is light now, to compare what is lighter now with an extreme example of the same principle, is a device, it is a literary device that intends to place the reader on the far end of the scale where the principle is applied in the extreme, hyperbole may be the counterfeit version, to say, to you, hey, or anyone who will listen, hey, hey, hey, this is the road we are choosing to travel, this is where this principle of dictation, and public condemnation without trial, goes, and once it goes it is not easier to stop it as it goes farther down this path, it is harder to stop it as it goes farther down this path, so you are being warned by me, with literary devices, and if you do not listen to me, then listen to as much of what God says to you, with the messages God sends, or if that is nto possible then listen to witnesses like Alexander I. Solzhenitsyn, who have been where we are going, and think twice about this Long black Train that dictates, and public condemnations without trial, build the tracks, the ties, the train, and the destination points along the way, because we will be getting what we are paying for, as we provide the means by which we suffer some now, and much more later.

Some of us, like canaries in coal mines, a coal mine we should not be digging in, will be suffering more first, and it may be good to understand that concept of having a few canaries around, singing one minute, and the next minute they are flat on the bottom of the cage.

When the canaries on the bottom of the cage number 200 Million, in this coal mine we are digging in, where it is routine to dictate to each other, one way, and it is routine to convict each other and execute punishment upon each other without any defense at all afforded the accused, then it may be a good idea to check to see if your own color is Canary Yellow.

Or not, you be the judge, I'm not even much by way of Juror.

Joe

Just a Sparrow

Joe, will did not agree with my words on legal crime, but it did not cause me anguish. I guess I don't care what will thinks. Funny, when you don't agree with me, that causes me aguish. I guess I care what you think. That is probably speaking on an emotional level again.

So what if will disagrees with the term Legal Criminal. I do not feel publicly on trial or disgraced, I just feel like…ok then, you [will] are welcome to live in your ignorance because I have once more tried to explain it and if you don’t get it what can it do.

But I in no way see that as an attack upon me or Liberty. Will seems friendly enough, but maybe I do not understand well enough.

But when you ask me to check to see if I am canary yellow, I feel like you are attacking me, like I may not be a Friend of Liberty. Why do you even say those words to me? Should I be writhing on the bottom of my cage because someone named will can’t get it? I am more worried about the millions of Americans that don’t get it and are not even trying because they do not know there is anything to get.

I suppose if I were talking to will and see things the way you do, I would say “I am feeling attacked by you. Is that your intention?”

Anyways from what I did read of Spooner, he says that Magna Carta was translated incorrectly. So maybe will has no way of knowing that it was translated correctly. Really, I never read Magna Carta till yesterday because I didn’t even know what it was. And that reading was more of a skim to find the spot that Spooner was discussing where I left off on my reading there.

Do we have any historical record documentation of Actual True Factual Trial by Jury being executed as discussed by Spooner. Are there any court transcripts so that we might know that Juries did indeed make the laws? To me that would settle the whole thing. It would no longer be will’s word against Spooner’s word, but will could see Spooner’s word as a documented fact of history taking place in an actual court room. That to me would be the answer that would put will into his place of rethinking what he thinks he knows.

Luke 12:6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? 7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Spinach time, where is my spoon?

"But when you ask me to check to see if I am canary yellow, I feel like you are attacking me, like I may not be a Friend of Liberty."

The difference is that I ask you, I don't tell you that you are a sniveling coward, or that you have misquoted someone, or that you HAVE IN FACT (according to me as dictator in chief) misrepresented something, case closed, trial over, execution of sentence executed, and there you are in the Public Square dangling at the end of a rope, by the neck, dead, and a sign is stapled to your forehead that says sniveling yellow coward who dared to misquote someone and misrepresent some thing.

You can't see the difference?

Hey, seriously, if you are down and out, if you are, then it may be a good idea to look at yourself, and if it looks like you are sniveling, then see it, and you might think better of it, if that is the case.

OR

Look at Bear THE YELLOW SNIVELING COWARD!

So the shoe is stuffed on you, like it or not, and if you try to defend yourself, by asking questions, what happens next on that trail?

I didn't invent the trail, I don't produce the trail, I don't maintain the trail, but I can recognize it when I see it.

"But when you ask me to check to see if I am canary yellow, I feel like you are attacking me, like I may not be a Friend of Liberty."

I ask a question, and Will dictates the execution of my sentence once I have already been convicted of the crime, affording me absolutely no defense, and you can't see the difference?

What am I missing?

"Why do you even say those words to me?"

I ask myself these things all the time, which is an exaggeration, and therefore my asking myself these things right now inspire me to exaggerate less, so, so, so, why not share the idea with a Fellow Friend of Liberty.

Hey, Bear, I've tried these shoes on, and the sort of fit, if I work at it, but they don't fit a well as I like, what do you think, Bear, do the shoes fit you, at all?

No, Joe, they don't fit, at least not when I'm at the top of my game, but I have to confess, at times, the shoes do fit, but I don't like wearing those shoes, and can we move onto something more important, this is depressing me, just thinking about me off in the corner crying my eyes out.

"Should I be writhing on the bottom of my cage because someone named will can’t get it? I am more worried about the millions of Americans that don’t get it and are not even trying because they do not know there is anything to get."

Go to Jury Duty, let me know what happens. If I am competitive, even setting the bar, then something is very wrong. I've been excused?

Really?

"Anyways from what I did read of Spooner, he says that Magna Carta was translated incorrectly. So maybe will has no way of knowing that it was translated correctly. Really, I never read Magna Carta till yesterday because I didn’t even know what it was. And that reading was more of a skim to find the spot that Spooner was discussing where I left off on my reading there."

Will was working the concept of things having power, as his words indicated to me, and when I ask questions seeking clarification on that angle, he can change the subject, go on the offensive, resort to deceit, what else, a public hanging?

Things, papers, orders, have no power themselves. They can sit for eternity, nothing happens, when a few people show up, then things start happening.

Where is the power?

God

The Creator.

How does God communicate with the creations?

I don't know.

Pieces of paper?

I don't think so.

Will does, as far as I could tell, but I did ask for clarification, and what was my reward?

"Do we have any historical record documentation of Actual True Factual Trial by Jury being executed as discussed by Spooner. Are there any court transcripts so that we might know that Juries did indeed make the laws? To me that would settle the whole thing. It would no longer be will’s word against Spooner’s word, but will could see Spooner’s word as a documented fact of history taking place in an actual court room. That to me would be the answer that would put will into his place of rethinking what he thinks he knows."

How about TODAY.

How about yesterday?

Is it a coincidence that I just happened to have been on Trial by Jury?

You prefer to ask Lysander Spooner? Will is challenging the principles involved, and his message favors authority contained in pieces of paper so long as he is the authority that interprets meanings of words?

Is there a focus of a specific principle on the table, or is the focus being focused on vapor, ambiguity, diversion, and falsehood?

How about a contest?

We can let Will decide the goals?

What are the chances that Will will make the first goal a contest to see who can move the goal posts?

"Luke 12:6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? 7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows."

The Will angle can be dropped like a dead sparrow, sooner the better, until he can offer more valuable text, or not, and meanwhile I have chores.

Take care Bear, and thanks again.

Joe

Joe, it is hard for me to

Joe, it is hard for me to understand because I never think in terms of dictatorial conversation. I remember one time you said something to me like you felt we were having a 1 sided conversation. That was news to me because I felt I was talking to you, but you did not see it that way. Who knows what is going on in will's head. You have been doing this for 20 years. You know what it is like to have your stuff flushed. I have no idea. My concern was that you would reject me. I see thinks in such a minute world. You see a big picture. You think 5 steps ahead like chess or 3 way chess 15 steps ahead? I barely think one step ahead. So I don’t know if will is thinking steps a head so as to try to trap your king. I never approach a conversation that way. I would never think anyone way playing me for a fool. But then again I remember dw accusing me of doing that to him when I went about match making. I suppose maybe guys think differently? Do ya'll worry about being fools and girls worry about being rejected?

I remember after I read Warren and did my little skit asking questions from different points of view. I thought it was really good and was so excited by my work of art and you did not like it at all. I wasn’t trying to be mean or put down Warren, I had serious questions that I really wanted answered so I could understand. But not everyone is a 2 year old so maybe will’s questions are not questions? Maybe they are dictatorial traps? They are statements aren’t they. Not questions. I wonder if statements are his way of asking questions. I wonder what authority will stands on? Is he a lawyer? How does he know what Magna Carte says? Or am I the only dimwit around here.

I think your idea of requesting clarification back to him is workable, if you want to do that. I like to have everything ironed out before closing a conversation. Or you can just say, “I suppose we will have to agree to disagree” and leave it at that if you do not feel like pursuing it. You can do that in such a way that if you run across him/her again there will be an open line of communication.

I remember you having to tell me that I didn’t know who I was talking to. That I had mistaken you for someone else. See how weird it all is.

It sounds like you have a lot on your plate right now from all directions. I feel empathy. There is such a wide variety to deal with, and nothing that you can fix or control. You can only be there and be supportive. But being there and being supportive is what is needed and so in a sense you offering a fix or control in the sense you offer support to up gird your family in these trials. You are a pillar of strength for them. I really had no idea all that you are dealing with, and here I suggest to you to start a post like you have all the energy in the world and no concerns at all. I wish I could fix everything for you. I’d like to make your mother well and your daughter’s boyfriend to be responsible and to love her instead of hurt her. I will pray for you that you will have strength.

I suppose I want so much for you to enjoy friendship and acceptance here on this forum and that is why I encourage the Friends IN Liberty thing. I suppose those are the things I want and I transfer them on to you.

Hey, I am having a medical test today so if you never hear from me again…well you will know I met my demise. That has crossed my mind too. What if something were to happen to one of us the other would never know. But I suppose that is life. It is but a vapor. Jury duty today at 12 huh. I guess you were serious about that notice hanging on your tower. Strange that we have been discussing Trial by Jury as of late. You are a Friend of Liberty. The court is fortunate to have you. I will remember you today, although I will be sleeping part of it.

Order out of Chaos?

This discussion is not the most orderly one within the scope of humanity, but it exists this way for reasons, not randomness.

"I suppose I want so much for you to enjoy friendship and acceptance here on this forum and that is why I encourage the Friends IN Liberty thing. I suppose those are the things I want and I transfer them on to you."

Awareness of the Power Struggle as my viewpoint has developed over the years may not fit anyone else, including you, but it is from that simple reasoned principle that I proceed in life, one step at a time.

Productive power avoids resort to deceit, threats of violence, and violence upon the innocent, or to say the same thing with fewer words: productive power is not destructive power or even fewer words: good is not evil.

I am already on this Friends IN Liberty path, the words you write ring true to me, when you write words like: Friends OF Liberty work to be Friends IN Liberty.

I say, to myself, I wish I invented that phrase, then I could have used it 10 years ago, but thanks, not I can see better, know better, with reinforced angles of view, where the angles of view appear to be in parallel or converging onto the same point.

"Hey, I am having a medical test today so if you never hear from me again…well you will know I met my demise. That has crossed my mind too. What if something were to happen to one of us the other would never know. But I suppose that is life. It is but a vapor."

My Power Struggle viewpoint returns and here is where more reinforcements support the point concerning good and bad, if you were nothing but a well paid liar, no one, certainly not me, would miss you as much, or at all, good riddance in many cases, some might even Thank God for taking you sooner rather than too late, and all things being relative, what is the most that anyone will miss once an individual is no longer breathing the air on Earth, turning oxygen into carbon dioxide and things on the to do list?

Thanks Bear, equitablist is a fine name, glad you had the time to invent it, it is worth something to me.

Thanks. Sometimes the least taxing thing may turn out to be much more than expected?

C'est la vie?

Joe

Si C'est la vie

“Friends OF Liberty work to be Friends IN Liberty.
I say, to myself, I wish I invented that phrase, then I could have used it 10 years ago, but thanks, not I can see better, know better, with reinforced angles of view, where the angles of view appear to be in parallel or converging onto the same point.”

Do you not know that you did invent that phrase? You are the catalyst. I was using the words Liberty Movement. You did not care for those words…At some point I asked you if I could use your phrase Friends of Liberty and you said something to the effect that we all stand on the shoulders of giants. So I started using your words to describe those of us that are party to the love of Liberty. Then I saw you and “we” get into a little scirmish and it made me want everyone to be friends…not just OF Liberty but IN Liberty. You, my friend, invented that phrase as well as equitablist. Those terms have been invented because you, Joe, have poured hours into my education with spoons of spinach. For me to claim those terms to myself would be like me claiming that I had my children all by myself as if Jeff had no part in the deed.

• Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

Joe says, “it’s been nice talking to you, thank you for the contributions.”

bear says, “Joe, where are you! I still have questions! Are you mad at me?”

Si C'est la vie

http://www.myspace.com/music/player?sid=86828337&ac=now (I have no idea what the words to this song are, but I found it when looking up c’est la vie) or her video here: http://www.onlylyrics.com/berry-lyrics-1084107.php (Nice to see someone who has not had her teeth fixed to perfection.)

Questions: I do not understand why people are so up in arms about Zionism. I have even seen things that say that the Jews imported to Israel from Germany were not really Jews. Or something to that effect. I even see people saying the US is controlled by the Zionists. Do you know anything about this topic? I do not know what to believe. I always thought it was good that America supported Isreal (I know I am speaking not in terms of individuals, but am just going to leave it at that broad sense of speaking.)

Importing Evil or Exporting?

Nice song. Thanks

"I even see people saying the US is controlled by the Zionists. Do you know anything about this topic?"

It is a half truth to claim that Nazi's killed by lawful order 20 million Jews.

Why?

Legal Criminals from American Financial Economic Monopoly Law Fraud Powers, or Wall Street, Exported Evil and made Hitler Powerful, this is well documented.

At the same time those most powerful Evil people among us financed Roosevelt, and The Brain Trust, killing cows and burying them, making sure that much of the wealth produced by Americans goes into World War II.

At the same time those most powerful Evil people among us financed Stalin, and many other possible winners of the "Revolution" in Russia, so as to create at least 3 very powerful Sides in the War known as World War III [Edit: one number out of sequence I meant World War II, and World War III is the current World War not the past one on the Evil schedule).

When Nazi's, or Legal Criminals in Germany, financed by Wall Street, or people in America, exported Jews, the Jews were not allowed into America, so then, there was a Jewish problem in Germany, no different than an Indian Problem in America the Century before World War II, and the same solutions, in principle, are invented, produced, and maintained, and these Solutions are Final Solutions for the 20 Million who are Legally Murdered, and tortured.

The order says no you can't go to America, you are not wanted there either, so get on the train, go to the Compound, be experimented on when called for, and then you will be finally free in the Gas Chamber, and this order shall not be questioned.

20 Million Jews?

Is that the whole truth?

No, the number includes people who belong on the list of people who are Gypsies, Poles, Out of the Closet Homosexuals, or whomever is no longer welcome in a place where dictates and public condemnation where victims cannot afford defense is the rule not the exception.

So someone has a bright idea after World War II to continue War War II, by moving operations to Palestine, call it the last battle of World War II, or call it whatever you want when an Army invades and then occupies a foreign country, and the natives are treated like animals, ordered to Compounds, experimented on, and then slaughtered for daring to defended themselves when they are not afforded defense by the occupying army.

What is Israel?

It is a Legal Fiction.

If it is also a place on Earth where God promises person A, B, C, three human beings with names given to them by their parents, and God promises person X, Y, and Z too, and these special people on this list are promised, by God, OWNERSHIP of that place on Earth, and if there happens to be natives already living there, then God promises that it is OK to torture and mass murder those natives, when they have the gall to defend themselves and their homes, then that is a God that does not know me, and a God that I don't want to have any connection to, other than to say hey, God, you are wrong to make those promises to those people.

Here is where you and I may find another line in the sand. Your God may say one thing, and the God that I know, does not say such things to me, as the God I know is not in the torture and mass murder business for the profit and fun of a few special people who are raised by this so called God, above everyone else.

That is, if anything is, iniquity.

"I always thought it was good that America supported Isreal (I know I am speaking not in terms of individuals, but am just going to leave it at that broad sense of speaking.)"

Please consider the context.

Jews are happily existing and contributing greatness in Germany, but they are then not welcome, because very powerful people finance The Nazi Law Criminal Party, and then American Legal Criminals refuse importation of German Jews.

Jews, it seems, are needed elsewhere, after the war, or in the last Invasion and Occupation of World War II.

Jews are sent to the beaches of Lebanon, all nice and Legal, according to the winners (seriously reported, but there are no winners, not even the Evil people who order World Wars) and therefore bad things continue to happen in Palestine which is now a Legal Fiction called Israel.

Hotel Lebanon?

No, the Name on the False Front can't be Hotel Lebanon.

The name on the False Front has to be Israel, or the crime in progress won't pass the censors.

So, here is your license, Jews, or whatever genes or culture or skin color or religous belief works in any case of any individual person, whatever, here is your license, there are the new Animals made into Animals all nice and legal, they are now called Palestinians, once human beings, no longer human beings, now they are mere animals, and not very useful animals, really, more like Cock Roaches, so they will be driven out, or exterminated, their choice, love extermination or leave it, because God, and Uncle Sam (The Dollar Hegemony) says so.

No, no, no, there are no excuses, it is the Law, no excuses of ignorance of the Law, you will either leave peacefully, or be exterminated, systematically, starved out, tortured, and mass murdered, and if you dare to defend yourselves in any other way other than leaving, they you will be exterminated faster, which may not be a bad idea, since life for you will now be living hell - a promise to die by.

Israel is a promise to die by, made by God?

You tell me.

Please.

This is the question I ask of anyone helping me understand the messages told by God.

People living for hundreds of generations in Lebanon are legally ordered to either starve and die torturous deaths or get the hell out of The Promised Land, because the new Zionist regime is now replacing the Nazi regime, same routine, different gene set?

Get out or die.

God says.

Really?

Which God?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otcQ2x6WG-o

Zionist is a label used to hide Legal Criminals, like Neo-Con or Nazi or Bolshevik is a false front covering up very Evil people who have names, individual names, and they do things, very evil things. Start counting the screams, and the individual bodies on the growing piles. If you can stomach the news.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB_CKL5h2_8

Joe

I dont know

Do you have a link for The Brain Trust. I tried looking it up myself but there are lots of different topics that come up for that search.

“So someone has a bright idea after the war to continue the war in Palestine, call it the last battle of World War II, or call it whatever you want when an Army invades and then occupies a foreign country, and the natives are treated like animals, ordered to Compounds, experimented on, and then slaughtered for daring to defended themselves when they are not afforded defense by the occupying army.”

Who was the occupying army?
________________________
Have you ever read the Biblical account of God’s promises to Abraham?

Those things were taught to me as a child from the Bible.

What if the people that Israel conquered in the beginning were evil. Not because of their nationality, but because of their actions. What if as a culture they killed their own children as fire offerings to idols?

• 2 Kings 16:3 But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel.

What if God is God and God choose to judge thru war? I am speaking in terms of the Old Testament.

God flooded the whole earth except Noah, because man’s thoughts were continually wicked. I suppose He did not allow 2 despots left to turn one upon the other, but he took care of all the despots post haste when flooded the earth, or when He gave Israel the promised land and gave them the power to conquer? Suppose.

I have no way of knowing anything about WWII and the new Israeli occupation. However, it is my understanding that there are prophecies speaking to the fact that Israel would be re-gathered in the last days. I don’t know if that is the modern day Israel or not. Many believe it is. Many believe we are living in the very last days. Many thru the ages have believed their time to be the last days. http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/matthew/24-audio.html

Who am I to tell God what to do, as if I am righteous and all-knowing, as if I am Creator of the Universe and have a plan to redeem man?

Please, what if the video link you gave me of the child in Gaza is propaganda? He says they haven't had food or water for 2 years. He is nicely dressed in what appear to be new clothes and not starving like the children covered in flies without clothing who are suffering in Africa. He also talks about cartoons on TV, as if to pull at western heart strings.

Joe, I do not know, but that is what I saw.

Worry or acknowledge

"I suppose maybe guys think differently? Do ya'll worry about being fools and girls worry about being rejected?"

If a goal is to know friend from foe then there can be many competitive methods by which a person can reach for that goal in each case.

Friends of Despotism may have entirely different methods by which they determine friend from foe compared to the methods preferred by Friends of Liberty.

Debate and argumentation can be a method, and an individual can resort to deceit UPON another individual during a debate or argument as a method of reaching a goal.

Can such things be known accurately by anyone, including the target of deceit?

Did I misquote and/or misrepresent anyone?

Did I misquote and/or misrepresent any thing?

A Friend of Liberty, it seems to me, would be someone WILLING and able to inform me of errors I have made, leaving no room for me to doubt my WILLFUL errors, and in that way I am made more powerful having such a Friend of Liberty on my side in that specific way.

I can avoid repeating such errors, and how can I ever repay such a gift from someone so generous?

A Friend of Despotism, on the other hand, may find cause to merely condemn innocent people for things that were not done by the innocent person being condemned, and that may be a method by which someone claims, in their own mind, to have won an argument, by mere executive fiat, their target is condemned, despite being innocent, and by that same executive fiat, their score is increased in their favor as they have managed to outscore their opponent, with that resort to deceit, as they have effectively shot that messenger with that inventive productive of deception, that condemnation of some wrongdoing that does not actually exist.

So I ask, rather than jump to conclusions, concerning what actually is the case, in this case, and my question is to ask who misquoted, who misrepresented, and what exactly was misquoted, and what or who, exactly, was misrepresented?

Can I know better or will I remain in the dark, and who has the power to liberate me from this State of darkness concerning my condemnation, at the hands of Will, as I am, in fact, guilty of misquoting and misrepresentation, according to Will.

Who has the power to set the record straight, concerning my guilt in this matter?

I would appreciate knowing better, rather than being kept in the dark.

How is it, can you help me, that I am kept in the dark this way?

How is it, despite my pleas for mercy, that my state of being ignorant, concerning my condemnation of guilt, is unanswered, and how is it that I am being kept in this State of being guilty, condemned, and at the same time ignorant concerning my guilt and my condemnation, despite my expressed desire to know better?

I am facing my accuser, asking for mercy, and what is the verdict piled onto the already executing public condemnation of my guilt in this matter?

Is my plea for knowledge concerning my guilt answered accurately, leaving no doubt as to my guilt, and is my plea for knowledge concerning my guilt, my public condemnation, a speedy, just, answer issued by my accuser, a merciful response?

If I were squirming on a table, racked with uncertainty, as to the full nature of my guilt, doubting myself, leaving myself at the mercy of self doubt, concerning my guilt, writhing in pain in my self aware darkness, my ambiguous state of uncertain guilt, raining down upon my soul, tortured, terrified, and horrified by such massive doses of self doubt, if that were the case, on this table made by my accuser, would by accuser then find cause to put me out of my misery, or would my accuser prefer to screw the rack tighter, and issue more doubt, more condemnation, piled unto the already growing pile of condemnations?

Now I am argumentative?

Once I thought I was able to supply a demand for reasoned, on topic, discussion, but now I am condemned with guilt concerning my slinking down into base argumentation, as if I am a rat and I am fighting with other rats for the last piece of cheese?

And now I have Will to thank for bringing me up to speed on the things that were, beforehand, unknown to me, in my state of self delusion, thinking that I could have been supplying anything wanted by anyone, where now I can see, clearly, or not so clearly, how, in fact, I am merely being argumentative, tangled up in debates of some measure, and what else? I'm loosing the debate?

Here I was scoring by may capacity to learn more today than yesterday and now I am aware, if only slightly more aware, of the fact that I've been in a Rat Race to see who can deceive the other better?

My world is suddenly turned up-side-down, and it turns out that I've been wrong all along? Will, being so charitable as he can be, informs me of reality, so as to help me, giving me a hand, out of my delusional state?

"I suppose maybe guys think differently? Do ya'll worry about being fools and girls worry about being rejected?"

I don't think it is a guy/girl thing. I think it is an accurate perception or an inaccurate perception thing, and a desire to go one way or the other without doubt.

"I remember after I read Warren and did my little skit asking questions from different points of view. I thought it was really good and was so excited by my work of art and you did not like it at all."

The good thing about keeping records, in English text, is the ability to re-read, and re-evaluate, actual facts. I think, but can be wrong, that the displeasure you read into that which I did not like was a claim made as to what Warren did, as far as the evidence can prove. If the evidence can prove that Warren did something that was not known by me, then it makes me happy to see that evidence, and if Warren supposedly did something but there is no evidence that can prove that Warren did that thing, then I am not so happy when no evidence is offered to support the claim that Warren did something claimed.

If the goal is to know better, but the trail taken runs dry, does that fact make anyone happy about it?

"I thought it was really good and was so excited by my work of art and you did not like it at all."

What exactly did I not like, are you really claiming that I did not like your work of art at all? My memory is not perfect, or even good, so I'd like to know this fact too, since I have been deluding myself for so long, up to this point, concerning my ability to recognize the difference between art and mere factual error in perception.

Can the truth be known here too, or is this more of the same type of triviality that can be passed over, by all but the blabbermouths, since we are, after all, rushing into World War III, and one thing is much more trivial than the other?

"How does he know what Magna Carte says? Or am I the only dimwit around here."

Constructive Interpretations?

Does that sound familiar.

BREAK

We were ordered not to talk about the case, by the Judge, we assembled potential jurors, and a said I would not, but they let me go, and I did not hear the evidence of the case, so it seems to me I can talk about how I was let go.

The Prosecutor was asking questions that I found to be too ambiguous to answer, when he moved to me for a yes or know I asked him to repeat the question, since it was mostly garbage as far as I could tell, but repetition may manage to ring a bell, and I'd then get the meaning of the question. I was impatient, and so my answer was that I did not understand the question, exactly, and I stated loudly, with obvious emotion, such is that me that keeps following me around, and I say that I am here to avoid abandoning the victim and avoid convicting an innocent man.

It was the prosecutor who requested me to leave at first.

The Judge then commended me for my earlier references to Trial by Jury written by Lysander Spooner, and asked me if I will follow the Judges instructions.

I said yes, my point earlier was that the other 11 jurors did not follow the instructions, which led me to that Essay by Spooner, so yes, I can follow instructions, but that does not mean that other jurors won't hide behind false fronts, claiming one thing and then doing the opposite thing, and that was my point.

The judge denied the request by the prosecutor to remove me.

Then I think the defendant's lawyer may have spoke up, and the next thing the Judge says is that I am excused.

The Judge appeared to me to be very reasonable, the defendant's lawyer appeared to be very capable, and disarming, while the prosecuting lawyer appeared to be unprincipled.

This is my second call to Jury Duty, where I actually managed to make the appointment. The first experience involved the entire case, and my vote was added to the conviction, on lesser charges, which was why the other jurors did not actually follow the Judges instructions, which I think are cases of fraud, Judges ordering things that any reasonable person knows is just not true, demonstrably not true, this Judge appeared to understand the point.

I was not deemed capable in judging the case, and that to me is cause for introspection, as the least taxing thing?

BREAK

Finished in another reply. The ball here is back in your court.

Joe

Both?

The ball is in my court is it. This is way off topic of your reply, but I have replied to this topic already on the other replies I made today.

Now I must tell you, I am feeling very anxious about what is going to happen next. There are so many voices purporting to be Liberty and I am confused, afraid, and unknowing as to who to believe. Jesse Ventura on Pierce Morgan…why does Pierce Morgan even allow him to speak if PM is going to be out done by JV? Josf, what if opposition is trying to lead opposition. I am afraid. How do you know any of these public Voices of Liberty are true? What if they are just raising the rabble to put a big target on who the rabble are?

And you are talking about WWIII again. I am afraid. Who is doing what to who? I don’t know what is going on. The ambassador gets killed in Libya…we are sabre rattling in Syria…Iran is on the block…Israel is being threatened. Legal Criminals are in charge of our country. The DP has voices calling in every which direction. Ron Paul is no longer a candidate. Who is to be trusted? How do you know AJ, VJ, GC are trustworthy?

And then in your 10 questions post you said something about McCarthy. Are the communists in control? I feel like I am in one of those schools of fish that are being rounded up by dolphins or sharks or whatever it is that eats them. Like everything is being whipped into a frenzy. Am I crazy to feel this way? Almost everything I have believed my whole life is opposite of the truth, and I don't even know that to be true. Do you still have your bearings?

Know better as to knowing better?

"What if they are just raising the rabble to put a big target on who the rabble are?"

If I can employ the canary in the coal mine analogy again, it being fresh in my mind, my thinking along these lines is to watch the canaries (rabble) who are breathing too much.

I think, but can be very wrong, that Jesse Ventura, Norman Finkelstein, to name just two canaries, are setting the bar very high as to how much a canary can breath in oxygen starved air.

When they start dying off, it may be a good time to breath less, but keep breathing, since I, unlike someone else, just me, I can't speak for anyone else, I do not see any point in volunteering to be a martyr.

If there are good things I can do today, then it stands to reason that there are good things I can do tomorrow, and if I consume myself in doing good things, then I'm dead, so no more good things from me, since I spent everything all at once.

I am not saying run and hide when the canaries start dropping like flies, actually: I'm saying that the canaries are dropping like flies, just not here yet.

What is here?

Here is not where a Jesse Ventura is "disappeared".

That is good news.

Does Jesse Ventura have closer ties to the very Evil people, and is therefore influenced by the very Evil people more so than you or I, and therefore there may be some protection he has that we do not have?

Yes, but he drives a car too, and which act are we paying insurance on, and which act are we being forced to pay false insurance on, and which is more likely to result in our untimely, torturous, death?

What are the odds that Jesse Ventura is reporting the honest truth so as to injure innocent people on purpose for some sense of profit realized by Jesse Ventura or some other criminal hiding behind a False Front?

Look at the man.

Listen to what Jesse Ventura actually reports, listen to the way he says things. He makes mistakes. He is not polished.

Now listen to a polished speech from a "newscaster" on a Nightly News Special Report. They all have the same effect on the listener, as if hypnotizing the listener, and they repeat things over, and over, and over, again, and they break to commercial, and then they repeat.

Why do you think I do the same thing?

It is called PROPAGANDA.

Jesse Ventura is Propagandizing.

I am Propagandizing.

You are Propagandizing.

Are the reports the honest truth as far as you know?

Are the reports false on purpose?

Who can judge?

Not me. Not for you.

You can't judge for me either.

I can offer my viewpoint, and I can be wrong, and I will pay the price for being wrong, but Jesse Ventura is firmly inside The Friends of Liberty so long as he avoids resort to deceit, threats of violence, and violence upon the innocent.

If you can show me where Jesse Ventura resorts to crime, I want to hear about it.

When a Nightly News Report is but 1 minute into the Report, if it is Political Economy, there will be a lie told, more often than not.

What if all the innocent productive people are being led to slaughter?

HELLO!

That is not a question, that is a well established fact.

"And you are talking about WWIII again. I am afraid. Who is doing what to who? I don’t know what is going on. The ambassador gets killed in Libya…we are sabre rattling in Syria…Iran is on the block…Israel is being threatened. Legal Criminals are in charge of our country. The DP has voices calling in every which direction. Ron Paul is no longer a candidate. Who is to be trusted? How do you know AJ, VJ, GC are trustworthy?"

Unfortunately we are born into this, and we can order and have shipped from China our ear muffs, our blinders, and our muzzles, but they are Made in China now so they don't even work, so you can use Drugs, or Alcohol, or both, or something new, how about Football, to escape reality another day.

Now that you are woke up some, you can imagine my feeling when I heard about the False Flag on 911, which was expected then, and which is expected now, as a cover to allow whatever happens next, which could be invasion and occupation of Syria, or going straight to Iran.

They can't play the same card too often, and they are very close to having their whole House of Cars fall all around them World Wide.

There is as much room for very much Hope and very much Despair as there is room for a Balance in between.

Which do you choose, now that you are no longer going to wait for orders from the authorities who are NOT GOD, despite all the evidence that suggests that those specific authorities assume that they are God?

"And then in your 10 questions post you said something about McCarthy. Are the communists in control?"

I can take out two words from the above and help clear things up, if you will listen.

Here is your words:

And then in your 10 questions post you said something about McCarthy. Are the communists in control?

Here is the suggested improvement:

And then in your 10 questions post you said something about McCarthy. Are the communists in control Legal Criminals?

Communism is a False Front hiding Legal Criminals who are busy perpetrating crimes they make legal.

Neo-Con is a False Front hiding Legal Criminals who are busy perpetrating crimes they make legal.

Zionism is a False Front hiding Legal Criminals who are busy perpetrating crimes they make legal.

"I feel like I am in one of those schools of fish that are being rounded up by dolphins or sharks or whatever it is that eats them. Like everything is being whipped into a frenzy."

If the messages by Jesse Ventura cause you to feel defeated, discouraged, and powerless to defend yourself, then something has to be capable of explaining the difference between your reaction and mine. Jesse Ventura invents, produces, and has so far maintained encouraging, but factual, messages to my ears.

"Do you still have your bearings?"

I can go to Jury Duty and teach everyone assembled how things are supposed to work, and if they don't listen, as I walk out the door, because I am being excused, then they will get what they invest their power to get.

That happens in my life. I'm not bragging. I am reporting the facts.

If someone else has witnessed my time in the Jury room, and they tell me that I am mistaken, and they provide evidence, then I can know better as to my errors in judgment of what actually does happen around me, because of me, or despite my power to exert my will.

Do the right thing.

How do you know what the right thing is?

The right thing is to know better as to what the right thing is, and this is the opposite of the wrong thing.

Why do you think I have attached myself to the Fear this or that according to the Word?

It says the same thing, doesn't it?

Know better.

If you don't then start knowing better.

If you don't know how to know better, at least you know that you don't, so get to work, and stop sniveling.

If that shoe fits, and I'm not saying it does, then it fits, so stop sniveling. Not because it is the wrong thing, but because it isn't the right thing.

Joe

Sniveling

Made me laugh

OK, the things JV says does not make me afraid, it is the fact that he is allowed to say them. If the criminals are so powerful and so in control, then why are they allowing JV to talk on MSM?

How do you know a trained Navy Seal is not a co-op saying all the right things? That is what makes me snivel.

Wasn't McCarthy talking about Communism? as in Communism? Or was he talking in general terms of Legal Criminals, not the false front communism? I always thought he warned of communism. Why are the Birchers so up on arms about Communism? Just how do you know that the Barry who grew up in Indonesia is not a communist plant. Maybe we are fighting all the wars in the Middle East because the Communist want them fought by the US because they have used up all of their power in Russia? How is that for a conspiracy theory? The one that no one wants to talk about.

...

It feels good to have some

It feels good to have some rain :) I need rain to. We all need rain.

Yes, I read that this morning. I was surprised to see you awake at such at time.

I remember early on when I used the word debate in one of our conversations, you corrected me, by saying something about debate and argue go hand in hand. So I didn't' use that word any more. But honestly, when I said debate, I wasn't meaning argue, I was meaning setting forth of ideas, not so as to win, but so as to discuss. I suppose though when one things of debate in the formal sense it is something that is to be won. But I do not think of it as arguing, but more of an art form to be engaged. I suppose a winner of a debate puts forth the best argument. But, that does not necessarily mean that the winner is correct.

I would say the words you said to me “I may be guilty of misquoting, but for the life of me, I can't imagine me doing such a dastardly thing.”

i.e. it is not my intention at all to misquote…and maybe give some background why I hold Spooner to be authoritative on the subject of Trial by Jury.

Josf, maybe we get along well because we both like rain. So much so we have been willing to work thru misunderstanding or hurt feelings. I think some of that ability to work thru things was being honest and transparent. So if I felt like my feelings were hurt, I said so. Sometimes I felt attacked. I do not feel that way anymore. It took time for me not to take things personally, like the shoe fitting, etc. I can remember telling you that you might want to consider that you were talking to me and not an audience, etc…
So from my own experience what I am trying to say is do you feel attacked by will’s words? Do you take his criticism or his point of view too personally? As if it is an attack. Or can you take the words and send them back kindly? I thought you did a good job talking about arguing and discussion

The other thing…will may not come around to accept Trial by Jury. When working with me you have somewhat of a blank slate. All this Liberty stuff is new to me. Will may have his/her own preset ideas. Maybe there is something else to talk about. Maybe a question? Will, what do you think Patrick Henry was referring to when he said (I am not going to get that quote right now). But the one that said how does your trial by jury stand

BREAK (I have a son who is ready for his morning dance. The above is quite rambling as I have not reread it and I was just putting my thoughts down.) So I will come back later. But I would work towards making a Friend of Liberty a Friend in Liberty. Some concessions may be in order. Each is entitled to their own misunderstandings?

More for today

This song has given me comfort this week:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Yei2uvA-vY

Proverb for day 2:

http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/proverbs/2-audio.html

Joe, if these things are an irritation to you, please let me know and I will with hold them. May you and your family have a good day today.

EQUITABLE?:

Philippians 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vain glory; but in lowliness [humbleness] of mind let each esteem other better thant hemselves. 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others

Top 10

Great song.

I'll get to listening to the proverb.

Your defining of equitablist is very competitive, to me; who can complain about the equitablists defined that way?

I just checked a Google Search on your new word and it is now up to 48 results.

Joe

Passing the Basket

"I just checked a Google Search on your new word and it is now up to 48 results."

What does it mean when you say "I do not own anything." I should like to know because I don't hear that often. Other than as a Christian, really all I have is the Lord's and it is just on loan to me. i.e., if I do not own anything, than things will not own me.

"Your defining of equitablist is very competitive, to me; who can complain about the equitablists defined that way?"

I wasn't thinking about equitablist this morning, I was wondering if you thought that principle was equitable. I think maybe God defines being equitable as loving one another. It seems to me that the message of love is completely lost. I do think equitablist a wonderful word! I hope that it gains traction, not for the word's sake but perhaps that people will live that word.

More from that passage:
1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? . . .23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

My Amish friend game me a freshly picked cabbage this spring...I almost made coleslaw but ended up cooking the cabbage with mushrooms onions and bacon. I have never made coleslaw.

...

Claims of ownership

"What does it mean when you say "I do not own anything." I should like to know because I don't hear that often. Other than as a Christian, really all I have is the Lord's and it is just on loan to me. i.e., if I do not own anything, than things will not own me."

I do not claim ownership. If I control something then in actual fact I have the power to control something, so what is this fetish people have with claims of ownership?

I guess, or my theory is, that people use deception, threats of violence, and violence to control other people, and there is a word for that, and you can tell me which is the more accurate word for people who resort to deception, threats of violence, and acts of violence in the process of controlling other people.

1.
Ownership
2.
Crime

If I type on this keyboard it can be said that I own it.

I prefer to control it.

I have the power, currently, to control this keyboard.

The concept of ownership is something I do not claim to own.

I don't own up to the claims of nebulous ownership.

How is ownership measured?

I own a bank account?

That is my bank account, where I store "my" Federal Reserve Notes?

I own this house?

Seriously?

As soon as I stop moving Federal Reserve Notes from one place to another someone will arrive at the door, a person with a badge, and a person with a piece of paper, and I will have two evil choices at that time.

1. Go find another home that I have the power required to remain in without having someone else control me, making me leave.

2. Resist against being forced out of "my" home by someone claiming ownership of "my" home.

I've thought about our conversations at dinner tonight, and it occurred to me to suggest that Liberty IS competition, or Liberty IS the power to control existence in such a way as to invent, produce, and maintain competitive options.

Rather than settling for the lesser, or greater, of two evils, which is merely a choice to suffer more or less, or suffer and die sooner, or suffer and die later, rather than that, the concept of Liberty is to gain the power to avoid such "choices" as those last two choices that somehow arrive at the door, out of the dark, and then choose to avoid these claims of ownership made by people UPON people.

I may have put too much red pepper in the coleslaw, for other people to eat. I like pepper myself.

Joe

Also In reply to 8/29 Investing Productively

Controlling something is a more accurate term than owning something. Yes, I understand that, besides anything can be destoryed in a moment of time...so what is ownership really, but control?

"I've thought about our conversations at dinner tonight, and it occurred to me to suggest that Liberty IS competition, or Liberty IS the power to control existence in such a way as to invent, produce, and maintain competitive options."

That I suppose will answer my problem stated below about not understanding the concept of Liberty enough to make a correct decision. But if a decision is weighed against competition or monopoly, then I think I can undertand Liberty enough to make a correct decision. I will not erase what I wrote below but I do understand now that I am reading your dinner thoughts. I guess you were pre-reading my mind.

I like spicy food too. My dad used to get jalapeno and anchovy pizza. It is a tradition I have passed on to my boys. We don't dip our chips in hot sause, we scoop it up and eat hot sauce on a chip. I suppose I would have liked your cole slaw.
______________________
I think this has to do with our current discussion on selling short?:
http://www.dailypaul.com/252950/barclays-makes-500-790-milli...
_______________________

on to conversation from 8/29

“If you can please consider the costs of every lie told by any human being in the past 5 minutes…”

Yes that is mind boggling. First I found myself trying to think of all they types of lies, and then the fact that lies normally lead to more lies and then compounding that by the number of people telling lies in that said time span. I cannot imagine the cost of human suffering just by a lie. Maybe that is why one of the 10 commandments is “Thou shalt not bear false witness.” Sounds simple and yet consider the cost of all the lies since even that single commandment was given. Then I though about just the lies at the RNC last week...what will they cost our land from sea to shining sea. What could have been achieved if honesty were allowed to flourish?

The Legal Criminals couldn't let honesty flourish, there is to much for them to loose if we were to take the Path of Liberty.
________________________
“That is fine. This is the work that must be done, if there is an INTEREST in knowing better.”

Yes, I have an interest in knowing better and I appreciate your help.
___________________
“Orient yourself into the best possible advantage to answer the problem.”

Can you talk to me more about “orient.” I understand observe, decide and act. But the orient concept is the one with which I am having trouble understanding.
______________________
“Which people on your path tell you that the problems facing mankind are inevitable consequences of human nature?
If those are the messages you "believe" then know that those messages are the opposite messages I am telling you.
You can't get past Observation if you are stuck at this cross road, where you are being told to go west and east at the same time.”

Are you talking about the Bible telling me such things as “the problems facing mankind are inevitable consequences of human nature?”
__________________
“Hope can come in the form of scripture, and it can come in the form of deductive reasoning.
Those who follow the script will march right into that Lake of Fire, and who argues that fact?
Not me.
The names of the people on that path, their words, their deeds, moving them along that path, may not be known, precisely, in scripture, as documented facts, and if my name is on that list, then you can be certain as to my belief, I do not choose to go down that path.”

I cannot understand what you are saying to me.
____________________________

"He (or she), my fellow citizen, is failing to pay Federal Income Tax, and therefore that person deserves to be PUNISHED by me and my kind!?
Who thinks those thoughts that would be required to occupy an otherwise moral human conscience, were those words, or similar words meaning the same thing, to be spoken by any person anywhere?”

I am just going to say, when one has been told their whole life to be honest which includes being honest on the 1040 it is a difficult concept to embrace. I understand what you are saying. I also understand that when someone I know talks about “paying cash” to avoid (I am not talking about you, but someone else), it made me a little mad last year because we struggle over here in this house to pay what we owe and in my mind I thought, well if people would quit tryinng to do things under the table maybe I would not have to pay so much because I am making up for their avoidance. That is before JTK. I understand now.

“Who thinks these words:
Payments of earnings by honest productive people using a Single Legal Fraud Money, their payments flowing to Frauds, to Frauds who make their Crimes Legal, is Legal Crime and it will consume all who participate in that Business Psycho, on a predictable schedule.
Only me, and if so why? Because I am honest to a fault?”

Josf, I am so naïve I would never have thought those thoughts. I am sure some do, but probably not anyone else that I personally know. I think we are all just trying to stay above water and believe that adage that there are 2 things sure in life: death and taxes. Well, I wonder who made that up?

When Ron Paul said he wanted to repeal the 16th amendment it was news to me that we didn’t have to pay taxes. It has never entered my mind that taxes are something that can be cancelled.
____________________
“You tried moving from Texas to another State and two things are observed by you?
1.You are still right where you are, still.
2.Federal Income Tax and Dollars followed you from State to State?”

Yes, and now we pay state income taxes…unlike in Texas.
________________________________
“We two can combine our power to get closer to those goals, which are goals that end the Legal Crime in Progress at that False Front Level known as The Federal Government, which would be nice if it were Federal, but it isn't, so it is False.”

How?
___________________________
“If you still see a need to punish Federal Income Tax Evaders then YOU are by that measure adding to that very big series of LIES that started in 1788.”

I understand.
_________________________
"Please see my Time is Short post below because for some reason I have seen a need to waste your time, which is probably not what I should be doing either."

I am obviously very insecure. Which I should not be as my trust should be in the Lord and not in what people think of me. But Josf, you are about the only person who will talk to me about these things. I feel so worthless and ignorant that I cannot imagine why you would give me any worth with your time if people who are close to me will not. I work to overcome those feelings, but sometimes they still surface like they did last week.
_________________________
“If you could repay any debt you may account on my behalf…Not exactly run for office, just do something along that type of path, taking back the POWER of government stolen from you - please.”

I am seriously considering it. As I think about it, it is a concern to me that I would be doing it without Jeff. Not that he would mind. I just wish he would do it or we could work at it together. He is much smarter, able to speak, and fast on his feet than I am. He is pretty good at reading people too. I am considering going to one meeting though, just to see if I want to try to do something. I am also concerned that I do not completely understand the concept of Liberty and may decide wrong if I am part of a decision process.
______________________
“What did I see?
Legal Crime.”

I suppose I would see the same thing and it would be eye opening. But if enough of us join together can we not out number them? Will that concept not work? And when I say enough of us, I am talking about me and whoever else, because how can I say to do something if I will not take part in the doing? It will take all of us doing something to displace the criminals. And after the RNC I am not even going to use the word legal in my last sentence.

“I'm asking.
Do you share their goals?
Do you want to punish people who Evade Federal Income Tax payments paid in Federal Reserve Notes?
The question is written in English.
You can act confused.
You can act like the question is confusing.
Either you do, or you don't, want to punish people who Evade Federal Income Tax payments paid in Federal Reserve Notes.
My asking the question is merely a suggestion.
My asking for an honest and accurate answer is merely a request.”

I think that is called TE collusion. Don’t ask…don’t tell?
___________________
“How much is the total cost of every lie every told by anyone in America since 1788, today, what is the total bill paid right now, and what do you think is down this road?
Gas chambers, and you had better have your ticket ready.”

Are you saying that figuratively, or do you mean it as truth and reality?
_________________________
Today's Proverb

http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/proverbs/3-audio.html

...

Best Pizza is shared

"I like spicy food too. My dad used to get jalapeno and anchovy pizza. It is a tradition I have passed on to my boys. We don't dip our chips in hot sause, we scoop it up and eat hot sauce on a chip. I suppose I would have liked your cole slaw."

The best pizza possible!

Yes the chips are just vehicles for transferring HOT salsa.

Eating burritos is a process of opening a pile of those little hot sauce containers: one for each bite.

"Last week the trading giant Glencore was attacked for describing the global food crisis and price rises as a “good” business opportunity."

Much is hidden behind False Fronts, whereby the victims are led to believe that the symbols that are arranged in English are meaningful on their face, or in other words the Language used to inform people is believed to be true on face value, but unfortunately for the victims the face value is Monopoly Value, or One Way Value, or Legal Crime Value, so the Deceivers who know better about the hidden meanings GET THE VALUE, while the victims who "believe" the Lies, based on their Face Value, get taken to the cleaners, or are marched into gas chambers.

So here is a case in point, concerning this entire message concerning Selling Short, and you could do well by reading (but only if you understand) Assassination Politics by Jim Bell (who went to prison for "tax evasion" or other supposed crimes), because the Face Value of the News being Reported in English suggests that there are 3rd Party Investors who are Gambling on Disconnected Events that occur Out of their Control, or out of their Sphere of Influence, and THEY are only "bad" in the sense that they profit on bad things done by other people.

There is, however, deeper meaning, and more valuable knowledge concerning what THEY are actually doing, as their actions CAUSE those events to happen, those massive example of mass starvation that are massive examples of mass torture, and mass murder are CAUSED by those plans and those actions perpetrated by those people involved in those things called Selling Short, Put Options, etc., and, please consider this, that all of that goes away when the money they are using no longer has that vital character of Launderability.

Going back to the report by Lysander Spooner on Trial by Jury where the fine for murdering the King was the extent of the punishment (by law as peers in Trial by Jury prescribed punishment) there is a possibility that a person would secretively place a bounty on the murder of the King, seeking the best man for the job, and that is the point, the cart being before the horse.

1.
Lone gunman, mysteriously, or insanely, having no reason, no probable cause (but plenty of plausible deniability or launderability), suddenly, from the dark, kills another person, who happens to be The King, or president.

2.
Put Options are placed on guessing the exact date and time when The King will suddenly be no longer alive, and the person who guesses the correct date and time wins that Lottery.

Actual transfers of POWER in the form of Legal Money flows from one place to another place and then things happen, or, is the other explanation more accurate whereby something happens and then money flows from someone to someone?

If there were a Trial by Jury where someone was suspected, but presumed innocent, of causing all that torture and mass murder that occurs in the form of mass starvation, because the accuser gathered up enough probable cause, and you sit on the Jury and you ask for the records that show what the defendant did, with Federal Reserve Notes, on such and such a date, at such and such a time, transferring those Legal Units of Purchasing Power from account A to account B, with the person who received the funds called as a witness, and you wanted to know why that money was transferred, and the witness confessed because the witness actually warned the person moving the Legal Power to Purchase as to the inevitable consequences of what will happen if you do that, and the answer was recorded as fact, as the money was moved, despite the warning concerning what would happen if the money was moved in that way at that time by that person.

We, you and I, are being informed by these NEWS items in English concerning something called Barclays, some THING, and some THING called The World Development Movement, and our thinking is supposed to be improved, as we then know better about those THINGS?

To me this is very familiar ground, TONS of money moving, torture increasing in severity and numbers of victims, and piles and piles of innocent people dying from excruciating pain.

Look up The Oil for Food Program.

Madeline Albright (no very bright at all) made a famous statement on those forms of those Put Options, or Futures Markets, or whatever Symbols in English are used to "inform" the Tax Payers.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1084

http://www.amazon.com/Different-Kind-War-Sanctions-Regime/dp...

In the second link there is a confession made by the then Director of the Oil for Food Program (sounds nice aye?) whereby a warning was offered concerning the accurately measurable consequences of proceeding as planned, where there would be massive deaths of children.

The first link reports a Monday Night Quarterback type question as if, well, you know, sometimes things just happen, and thinking back, was it a good idea?

The actual fact was that the idea was to DESTROY all those babies in Iraq. That is called premeditated mass murder, and there was a whole lot of mass torture thrown in for good measure.

That was the idea.

That was the plan.

Whose idea?

Whose plan?

Who pays for that stuff?

Get up.

Go to the bathroom.

Look in the mirror.

1. End the FED
2. End the IRS
3. Bring the Troops Home

Do all that competitively, voluntarily, peacefully, and do those 3 things by July 4th, 2013, or a more competitive date, and more competitive forms of remedy if you can invent one, or more.

"What could have been achieved if honesty were allowed to flourish?"

You offering company on this path is very enlightening, as I'm no longer one against the world, the only insane one, in a sane world, which is a consequence of having no support, such as what you offer, along on this path. In point of fact, and being less general, or to be more specific, you (as far as I can tell) are starting to see the big picture as a function of power in a power struggle.

"What could have been achieved if honesty were allowed to flourish?"

Just take the last 200 years or so, since 1788 for example, and imagine what might have happened if the Democratic Federated Republic was allowed to help people avoid damaging lies by allowing competition to exist and as each State was working to call forth the best Statesman to provide The People with higher quality and lower cost government?

In point of fact there were cases of slaves like Daniel Shays running from one State to another State, so Slavery was thereby remedied.

That is why The Con-Con in Philadelphia was planned by the Hamiltonians or Central Bankers, and that is how the Central Bankers managed to get those Slavers in the South to Compromise their power with the Central Bankers power.

Had that not happened would there have been all those Indian Wars?

Who knows? Would the criminals found another way to make their crimes legal?

The point is that destructive power, if allowed to flourish, does so at the expense of productive power, as destructive power produces no power on its own, so if destructive power is allowed to flourish it must flourish because the productive power provides the means by which we suffer.

What happens if the productive power no longer provides the means by which we suffer?

Productive power is then used to make more productive power.

What is the limit of productive power?

When does productive power reach a condition of abundance or oversupply?

Why are human beings placing barriers between the people who grow food and the starving people dying of starvation?

The lie is told that man is bad and therefore men do bad things like that, so pay me, because I am less bad, and I will somehow do the least worst things to correct these inevitable problems such as barriers being placed in between the people who grow food into abundance and the people who are starving to death slowly, just pay me, and pay me more, and the first thing I'll do with the power you send me is to crush anyone who questions the fact that you have to send me power without question.

What if that is avoided?

"What could have been achieved if honesty were allowed to flourish?"

Productive Power in Abundance?

Peace on Earth?

Specific things, or just wild fantasy, ravings of a lone lunatic?

Utopian fantasy?

Ignore the ignoramus?

"The Legal Criminals couldn't let honesty flourish, there is to much for them to loose if we were to take the Path of Liberty."

Do you see a need to punish National tax evaders or National draft dodgers?

BREAK

"Can you talk to me more about “orient.” I understand observe, decide and act. But the orient concept is the one with which I am having trouble understanding."

We can borrow from John Boyd and a more famous person named Bruce Lee, which is another odd story involving a book by Bruce Lee that I found, as if falling from Heaven, in a house my wife was selling.

These guys (and others before them and since) discovered the concept of orienting your position from a weak position relative to the subject (enemy or problem) to a stronger position relative to the subject.

After (or during since this is all dynamic stuff not static stuff) observing, which is a process, there is orientation, which is another process, and during orientation, if I have this right, the relative position of the observer and the observed is altered so as to gain advantage for the observer.

If the observer is observing an enemy, then the advantage gained can be gained at the expense of the enemy, which is a very competitive method of orientation since the enemy then grows weaker while the observer grows stronger.

Flanking is a term used, and to me this is the same thing as inventing, producing, and maintaining several different angles of view when viewing things, you orient your mind to reject the concept of "possessing" ONE MONOPOLY VIEWPOINT, and the process of inventing competitive viewpoints is orienting your POWER to observe in a way that is competitive. If you get better at it there is less expense of time involved, less cost, and therefore the process becomes costless, or efficient. If you are stuck in static time, where you supposedly "own" ONE MONOPOLY VIEWPOINT, then you are a deer stuck in the headlights, and you have no time to get out of the way, you have no time to entertain any other viewpoint other than the fact that you are being hit by a car.

You observe the car, you orient your mind to at least entertain the possibility that you don't have to be hit by the car, and then you decide to OPT OUT, and you decide to jump out of the way, and this can be seen from two angles (see how I use my orientation power): if the car is enemy then you can hit them as they go by, or you can purposefully stand at the edge of a cliff and trick the enemy into running at you, and when you jump out of the way the enemy is jumping off the cliff, but if the car is merely a Friend of Liberty lost, then your power helps both of you, as you jump out the way, and the car is not damaged.

Decide to jump out of the way.

Then jump.

Look for another car, orient your path off the road?

"Are you talking about the Bible telling me such things as “the problems facing mankind are inevitable consequences of human nature?"

I am being honest. What you do with the information I offer is not in my control. If you interpret the Bible in wrong ways, do you blame God for your mistake?

"I cannot understand what you are saying to me."

Anyone who is deceived will be someone following a false script, and here is where you are probably thinking that I may be claiming that The Bible WAS written by The Devil, which is false, and the false thought is not mine, so if you are wearing that shoe (which I can't know), then you are, and if you are not, then you are not wearing that shoe.

I do not claim that The Devil did, in fact, write the Bible. I ask anyone, as a Litmus Test, how they can know that The Devil did not write The Bible, because I know that there are a lot of deceivers who use The Bible as a False Front covering up their crimes, where the Inquisition exemplified that specific process.

If you are being lead to slaughter then it is my opinion that God isn't doing it, so who is, if that is the case?

Who wrote the script that is leading you to slaughter, if you are being lead to slaughter, and at this time I am again inspired to link that official National Debt Clock, which is a "script" and it is written by human beings, and it is leading people to slaughter, so please don't confuse my attempts to warn people about False Scripts with my attempts to encourage people to seek the truth.

I don't confuse the two, and if I do confuse the two, then I need help, desperately, in my chosen effort to avoid confusing the two.

"Josf, I am so naïve I would never have thought those thoughts. I am sure some do, but probably not anyone else that I personally know. I think we are all just trying to stay above water and believe that adage that there are 2 things sure in life: death and taxes. Well, I wonder who made that up?"

There may be something here too that is worth counterfeiting, so it may be a good idea to see both things.

1. The Counterfeit version (National Taxes that each peer demands from each other peer)

2. What is the Counterfeit version covering up?

In Trial by Jury, for example, it was reported by Lysander Spooner that Taxes consisted of Jury Duty and Military Duty if an aggressive army of bad guys invaded the Country.

If one peer was not paying their taxes then a process was used to apply peer pressure.

It may be a good idea to orient your thinking along those lines, to see how that shoe fits, and reject any of the bath water, and if there is a baby in it, don't throw out that baby.

The involuntary Tax combination of The FED and The IRS and The Misguided Troops is the dirty bath water used to waterboard the baby.

"When Ron Paul said he wanted to repeal the 16th amendment it was news to me that we didn’t have to pay taxes. It has never entered my mind that taxes are something that can be cancelled."

Here is where Democratic Federated Republic Limited Constitutional Competitive Government can be used as an orientation against MONOPOLY NATIONAL LEGAL FRAUD AND EXTORTION GOVERNMENT.

Your peer pressure power applied to other peers in your STATE works fine for all those people sharing that power and if one of your peers doesn't like it, a Daniel Shays type for example, then Dan can do what Dan does, and he can even move to another State where the peer pressure isn't demanding him to pay taxes on whiskey, payable in the Gold he no longer has, which is why he started using Whiskey as money.

The Federal Government in Competitive Government, limited by voluntary membership choices made by States (by the people in those States), does not tax the people directly with an IRS, or FED, or Misguided Troops POWER.

1. Fraud at a National Level (for all who want it)

2. Fraud at a State level (for all who want it)

3. Fraud at a State level within a Federation (for those who migrate to that State, but not for anyone who prefers to avoid fraud)

A Consolidated government was what Patrick Henry warned against.

What does a Consolidated Government hide?

If a Consolidated Government is a Counterfeit Government, then what is being counterfeited?

What principle is there that inspires you to pay taxes, and is that like a baby in the bath, and if so then please don't think that I am asking you to trow out the baby and keep the bathwater.

Specifics:

If you feel the need to apply pressure to your peers who are avoiding National tax, then consider that to be a possible misguided application of peer pressure in your case.

I'm not saying that peer pressure is bad, if that is what you think I am saying.

"Yes, and now we pay state income taxes…unlike in Texas."

Unfortunately time has worked in favor of The Friends of Legal Crime since the Highest Level of the Pyramid is copied at the lower levels, instead of the POWER working the other way, the POWER is destructive, not productive.

Is your State as corrupt as the National level, or just less evil?

The same question applies to The County, and the City, and they have kept two sets of books, and that goes down to the individual level too.

Who keeps a set of tax records for The IRS to see, or the State Tax Board to see, and a second record of money laundering, to keep the IRS and the State Tax, and the County Tax, and the City Tax collectors in the dark?

Just don't get caught?

What do you think would happen if you were a Juror on a Trial by Jury where you have all the power of government in your control and before you is a person being charged with producing your City, or your County, or your State Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports, as a means of laundering profits for a few at the expense of many, a second set of books that are constructed and hidden from "The Public", so as to get away with that FRAUD in progress.

Before you is a person.

You are the Juror.

You can convict, or set free, and you can prescribe punishment, if all 12 of the Jurors can agree as to the definition of LAW in this case.

What do you ask that person who is presumed to be innocent?

Juror:
"I don't know what all you lawyers and saying, it is all greek to me, so get out of my way, I'm taking back Liberty, and you are in my way, so answer this question, and if you don't answer this question then as far as I am concerned you are guilty, and my question to the defendant is..."

What is your question?

Suppose I'm on the same jury.

I ask:

"According to the numbers in that Comprehensive Annual Financial Report the City that you are hired to run has a surplus of LEGAL POWER TO PURCHASE in excess of 1 million dollars, and according to the Budget report that you report to us Tax Payers the City is broke and therefore we Tax payers are expected to pay more taxes, this is now established as fact, and my question, right now, is to ask you if you knew of this fraud, and then I have follow up questions concerning your answer, and the answer better not be maybe, and the answer better not be that it depends upon what is is, because if that is your answer they as far as I am concerned you are guilty of this fraud in this amount right here on these documents that you are hired to control."

You have seen the "hearings" between Ron Paul and Ben Bernanke, yes or no?

If that is happening at The National level: what do you think will be happening at The State level where so much POWER can be used by The FED criminals to buy so many THINGS at the State level - a process that was a warning offered by Patrick Henry and other Founding Fathers.

"How?"

If one person is reading this, just one, other than us two, what is the result of that fact?

How damaging is one lie?

How can one lie be made less powerful?

One can become two, two can become four, etc.

"I work to overcome those feelings, but sometimes they still surface like they did last week."

Unfortunately much of your power has been destroyed, in may ways, but I think God does work in mysterious ways, so there is hope, despite all the power that works against hope in our minds. Orienting around the despair may be something that can be shared?

"I am considering going to one meeting though, just to see if I want to try to do something."

My suggestion here is to work on using Energy Maneuverability as described earlier with Observe Orient Decide and Act looping as a process to be refined and improved.

It works.

In the first meeting, for example, try slowing things down to a manageable speed for your current level of defensive power, and to do that, as you appear to be doing, if I read your words well enough, orient your position to be ONLY observing, to see things, like who appears to be friend, and who appears to be foe, and then decide against action, but only based upon current observations during the meeting.

That is the trick, and that is what was written in the book I found by Bruce Lee, YOU have to be current, there is no script, in fact the scripts written by anyone, including yourself, have to be left behind at the right time, currently, as you must be refining your ability to adapt "on the fly".

So a meeting can be better acted upon with a preplanned goal of only observing, holding back any unwelcome acts you may act out that may weaken your power relative to other people in the meeting, but that too can be left behind, in practice, so that too is a part of the plan, that is part of the loop.

The concept is based upon improvisation, adaptation, invention, production, and maintenance of competitive paths reaching competitive goals - the opposite of monopoly.

I've been there, and I did well, but relative to what? In unison the other people in the group, in fact this happened, all turn their heads at me and shout, with vengeance, NO, at me, because of a question or statement I made that challenges their false notions, notions that are demonstrably false, they know it, and I know it, and that is why such things, in UNION, happen.

My goal was to find out if those people were friends of Liberty or Foes, and I found out. That was back in time between Waco and Oklahoma City. You may not know much about Oklahoma City, but it was predicted, it was routine, and it was a False Flag.

Oklahoma City intended to shut up the summer patriots who were shook up by Waco, and it worked, because summer patriots are like people playing with a hobby.

"I am also concerned that I do not completely understand the concept of Liberty and may decide wrong if I am part of a decision process."

Here is where you are wrong, because Liberty is essentially the same thing as the word of God, and you have the word of God worked out in principle to a point where you can teach those principles, and where, I am asking, is the word of God anywhere in opposition to Liberty?

If you find such opposition between the word of God and Liberty then we two have a problem on that point if you can find it.

As to the welcome proverb:

Don't own wisdom, it is God power?

I see that as the way out of the closed loop where a person has fallen victim to false believe (false gods) and they protect their lies with vehemence.

That is a closed loop, as if possessing the lie, which is not wisdom.

Wisdom is more like providence?

A process that is adaptive and given, and shared?

Joe

On the Path

“Eating burritos is a process of opening a pile of those little hot sauce containers: one for each bite.”

We lived in Arizona when I was little. The Mexican food is different than TexMex which I also enjoy. My dad used to take me to a little hole in the wall where I would get a green chili burrito. Do you have those in Cali? Jeff and I took a trip before moving here…our “last” vacation because we knew the direction we were heading financially. We went thru New Mexico and I enjoyed the Mexican food there. They use a different chili seasoning than Tex Mex. We are very fortunate to have real TexMex available in Clinton, 20 minutes up the road (the waiters barely speak English). When we first moved here and things felt out of sorts, we would go eat some home-style Mexican food and soon the world would be alright again. I guess that is what comfort food is all about. Yes, the hot sauce must be hot. I add green habanero sauce to my salsa when we eat in Clinton. It turns it brown, but it taste good…so you like anchovies? :) Have you ever had salt mackerel. I remember having that in the fridge when we lived in Wisconsin (I think, or it could have been the first time around in Texas). GE moved my dad a lot. He was a plant manager and he said every time he got a problem fixed they moved him off to another one to solve. Maybe it was GE just ruining family roots? I feel lost not being from somewhere where everyone has known me since a child. I guess that can be good and bad though..
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“…unfortunately for the victims the face value is Monopoly Value, or One Way Value, or Legal Crime Value, so the Deceivers who know better about the hidden meanings GET THE VALUE, while the victims who "believe" the Lies, based on their Face Value, get taken to the cleaners, or are marched into gas chambers…”

I watched Money Masters yesterday. I watched it earlier this year when I first started looking at the DP because it is on their recommended video links. I remember thinking I needed to watch it again because the information is vast and I didn’t have a history frame work on which to hang it. It was more meaningful yesterday, but left me more frightened because I have a greater understanding after my JTK education. It seems almost hopeless to escape such controlling evil after seeing how our presidents and congress and people from the land of the free have been manipulated and controlled: some unknowingly, some in full knowledge. That video speaks quite about the Rothchilds/Rockefellers etc. How do you see the Jesuits working into the mix?
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I also watched The History of Oil. Peak oil production was mentioned several times as well as the Alaska connection. Was the video discussing the Peak Oil you have told me about, or was it discussing a different concept? I also found it interesting that Iraq, I think it was, started taking Euros instead of dollars in the early 2000’s. But someone somewhere was playing the Euro against us? Was someone trying to make us go to war? Was someone trying to ruin our money supply. Then I watched Tom Woods explanation of the Euro from the front page of the DP yesterday to see if I could understand better. I probably need to watch The History of Oil again to really understand because I didn’t “get” all the mafia talk between chavez and our president.
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I watched a Tom Woods video from the front page of the DP about where the Liberty Movement. Of course he was channeling people over to his site to discuss “what is next.”

I read this post (which I would not have fully understood if you had not taken all this time with me, although I still don’t know what is meant by “state”) http://www.tomwoods.com/afterpaul/:
• “GreenAvenger11•19 hours ago
Agorism: Live Free Now! Don't wait for a politician to give you permission to be free.
Remove yourself from the corrupt, criminal, monopolized systems propped up by the State: monetary, agriculture, industrial, social etc by switching to alternative systems or building your own alternative societal infrastructures! Buy organic food, preferably local. Use alternative currencies such as Bitcoin and/or start your own local currency. Stop paying taxes and supporting the State as much as possible. Form mutual aid networks to reduce your community's dependence on the State. Most importantly, if a law is the only thing stopping you from doing what you love, screw the law and do what you love! Just be safe and remain as free from the State's clutches as possible. Together, we can all nullify the State one dissenter at a time! :-)”
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“…please consider this, that all of that goes away when the money they are using no longer has that vital character of Launderability.”

What would make money so that it cannot be laundered?
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Look up The Oil for Food Program.

Josf, what if all those words (not just the Albright quote) written in that article are to subvert the people of the United States from supporting their government. I am saying that to you because it is going on in my mind. It is hard for me to think that people in the government would actually blow up the water and withhold chlorine to cause disease and then withhold the medical supplies to treat the disease thus allowing 500,000 children to die (not to mention those above the age of a child, whatever that cutoff number might be). An outside enemy would want to subvert the people from their government.

However, next in mind is, perhaps the outside enemy is causing our government to do something that would cause the people’s loyalty to be removed from their government. Or next, how about if the government is the enemy and people should not be loyal. You see, there are so many steps along the way to understanding. But what if, the goal is to ruin this country thru media? I suppose that is the truth especially after watching Money Masters. Do you think the enemy has followed this progression:
1) influencing people in the government,
2) subverting people in the government,
3) controlling people in the government,
4) becoming people in the government.

Or what if we are just being told the government is the enemy so that we fall from within? I suppose that thought is me trying to hold on to a shred of decency, innocence and sanity?

I looked up this link: http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2004/04/investigate... I do not know if the history of the program there is correct or not. They say Saddam was keeping funds in a bank in Paris, that the UN was making a percentage off of each barrel of oil, and that there was a French/Russian connection.
I still do not completely understand Oil for Food. From what I understand it was a UN program to feed the people while sanctions were in place against Iraq. What I do not understand is, did or did not Saddam divert the money that was supposed to purchase food to purchase military arms? (OK now my mind is moving to funding both sides of a war…the looser with not quite enough funds.) But did he use the money to buy arms, or is that just what was being said to justify toppling his government? How do you know which media source is a friend or foe?

OK now I am wondering, was Oil for Food a money laundering operation? Whose? Those people that are funding both sides of the war?

http://www.amazon.com/Different-Kind-War-Sanctions-Regime/dp...
I read this Review
"This is one of the most important books I can remember. Hans von Sponeck, one of the UN's most senior and respected officials, who resigned rather than carry out inhuman US Administration-driven policies against the ordinary people of Iraq, has blown the whistle on one of the greatest acts of aggression: the medieval siege of Iraq. Read this superb book and you will understand the danger the world faces from an imperialist power." John Pilger

Is the US government the imperialist power? How do I know Hans von Sponeck isn’t some kind of secret agent to subvert our government. See I am having a very hard time this morning letting go of what I thought was the truth about the US and good will.

“The actual fact was that the idea was to DESTROY all those babies in Iraq. That is called premeditated mass murder, and there was a whole lot of mass torture thrown in for good measure.”
That was the idea.
That was the plan.

WHY WHY WHY????? It makes me mad to think about.

Whose idea?
Whose plan?
I don’t know? The Jesuits? The bankers? The US government. I do not know.

“Who pays for that stuff?
Get up.
Go to the bathroom.
Look in the mirror.”

Not me. I do not pay for that. I did not need to look in the mirror. I do not pay for that. I am paying for all the people in Lowry City who do not work. That is for what I am paying, those people are becoming precious to me now as they absorb my tax money.
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“1. End the FED
2. End the IRS
3. Bring the Troops Home
Do all that competitively, voluntarily, peacefully, and do those 3 things by July 4th, 2013, or a more competitive date, and more competitive forms of remedy if you can invent one, or more.”

I do not see how. Did you see what they did to those 500000 children in Iraq, not to mention the rest of the Iraqi people? Did you see what they did to Gadhafi? Did you see what they did to those people in the World Trade Centers? Did you see what they did to those people in OK City? Did you see what they did to those people in Waco? Did you see what they did to that family on Ruby Ridge? How in the world do you think we are going to peacefully do anything? I don’t think any of those people on the way to 1 million did anything unpeacefully and yet they were all killed. Do you actually think we will get away with peacefully doing anything? A BIG NO coming from my account. It will not be peaceful even if the Friends of Liberty never fire a shot. We will be fired upon. We and the rest of the people here in this land from sea to shining sea. By the way, one of the parents at my children’s school, probably the wealthiest, told me if Obama was re-elected they would move to an island somewhere to escape tyranny.

"What could have been achieved if honesty were allowed to flourish?"

Yes, and the other thing I thought on concerning all of those lies told is: what if each lie had been refuted with the truth each step of the way? Who is going to tell the truth each time a lie is told?
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“You offering company on this path is very enlightening, as I'm no longer one against the world, the only insane one, in a sane world, which is a consequence of having no support, such as what you offer, along on this path. In point of fact, and being less general, or to be more specific, you (as far as I can tell) are starting to see the big picture as a function of power in a power struggle.”

I am not nearly as far along as you, someone to help me understand and to talk with me about these things is very important to me. You can see how little I knew (and still do not know), but it is a relief to have someone who will look at things I see and help me understand what I am seeing as well as guide me toward what I need to understand such as the function of power wherein lies the answer. I have found it to be very difficult to be aware of things that no one else wants to hear. But last week, my 81 year old pop said “We are no longer living in a free country.” He knows, but does not understand everything. He would probably listen to me. He has a way of listening so that when I am finished I am not upset. I don’t know if it is some kind of trick to just let me say what I must so it can be said and over, but my mom did the same thing toward the end of last week. I don’t know if my wise pop told her how to handle me or if she just figured, why try to counter…or has she decided that I just may have something she may like to know.
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“Had that not happened would there have been all those Indian Wars?”

Why did we have the Indian Wars?
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Are you talking about Oil for Food:

“The lie is told that man [US SANCTIONS] is bad and therefore men do bad things like that, so pay me [UN Oil for Food], because I am less bad, and I will somehow do the least worst things to correct these inevitable problems such as barriers being placed in between the people who grow food into abundance and the people who are starving to death slowly, just pay me, and pay me more, and the first thing I'll do with the power you send me is to crush anyone [Saddam?] who questions the fact that you have to send me power without question.”
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Me: "What could have been achieved if honesty were allowed to flourish?"
You: “Productive Power in Abundance?”
Joe’s Law? Does Joe’s Law require honesty as a catalyst? Or does honesty lead to competition and that is what Joe’s Law requires?

“Specific things, or just wild fantasy, ravings of a lone lunatic?
Utopian fantasy?
Ignore the ignoramus?”

How about those 10 commandments? I wonder what God had in mind for the Israeli people?
http://www.allabouttruth.org/10-Commandments.htm

Is God were a raving utopian lunatic?
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Thank you for the lesson on Orientation. I have oriented myself to have more time in the morning when preparing to get the boys off to school. That means getting up at 6 instead of 6:30. Thank you.
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ME: Are you talking about the Bible telling me such things as “the problems facing mankind are inevitable consequences of human nature?"
YOU: I am being honest. What you do with the information I offer is not in my control. If you interpret the Bible in wrong ways, do you blame God for your mistake?

I am still thinking about this. I am going to say that I think all we have to do is look at ancient history, history, recent history, and current events. What I see when looking is that some humans do very bad things and those humans are always among us doing very bad things.
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“I do not claim that The Devil did, in fact, write the Bible. I ask anyone, as a Litmus Test, how they can know that The Devil did not write The Bible, because I know that there are a lot of deceivers who use The Bible as a False Front covering up their crimes, where the Inquisition exemplified that specific process.”

When you asked me the question about how can I know that the Devil did not write the Bible early on, I did not interpret it to mean that you thought the Devil wrote the Bible. My interpretation of the question was that you did not think God wrote the Bible. This, to me, is the most important question to answer: Did God write the Bible?

bear: God wrote the Bible

Josf: How do you know the Devil didn’t write the Bible? [because I certainly am not going with the notion that God wrote it.]

bear: Today, I will say, if God did not write the Bible, then I would have nothing to do with it. I do not need to base my life on a book that was written by any human. I am human and can write my own book on which to base my life. So, it is either written by God, or I am wasting my time and my life.

Josf: I wasn’t even talking about the Bible 2 days ago, I was talking about the debt clock you silly bear.
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“In Trial by Jury, for example, it was reported by Lysander Spooner that Taxes consisted of Jury Duty and Military Duty if an aggressive army of bad guys invaded the Country. “

Josf, last week I asked my pop why we had a draft when war wasn’t declared. He said a draft was already in place when he went to Korea. I thought the draft was instituted during the Vietnam war. Is registering with the selective service the same thing as a draft? Was there something different going on during the Korean war as far as calling people into military service?
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“What does a Consolidated Government hide?”

Competition which enables fraud.

“If a Consolidated Government is a Counterfeit Government, then what is being counterfeited?”

Government.

“If you feel the need to apply pressure to your peers who are avoiding National tax, then consider that to be a possible misguided application of peer pressure in your case.”

I don’t have any peer avoiding national tax that I know of. And if they are they need to keep it to themselves.
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“What is your question?

What is, or who has, the account number where the hidden funds are kept?

“Suppose I'm on the same jury.
I ask:
‘According to the numbers in that Comprehensive Annual Financial Report the City that you are hired to run has a surplus of LEGAL POWER TO PURCHASE in excess of 1 million dollars, and according to the Budget report that you report to us Tax Payers the City is broke and therefore we Tax payers are expected to pay more taxes, this is now established as fact, and my question, right now, is to ask you if you knew of this fraud, and then I have follow up questions concerning your answer, and the answer better not be maybe, and the answer better not be that it depends upon what is is, because if that is your answer they as far as I am concerned you are guilty of this fraud in this amount right here on these documents that you are hired to control.’"

My question is very simplistic. But I want to know where the money is.

“Orienting around the despair may be something that can be shared?”

Yes, that seems to be happening as I am able to be honest and as the environment feels safe.
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“In the first meeting, for example, try slowing things down to a manageable speed for your current level of defensive power, and to do that, as you appear to be doing, if I read your words well enough, orient your position to be ONLY observing, to see things, like who appears to be friend, and who appears to be foe, and then decide against action, but only based upon current observations during the meeting.
So a meeting can be better acted upon with a preplanned goal of only observing, holding back any unwelcome acts you may act out that may weaken your power relative to other people in the meeting, but that too can be left behind, in practice, so that too is a part of the plan, that is part of the loop.

The concept is based upon improvisation, adaptation, invention, production, and maintenance of competitive paths reaching competitive goals - the opposite of monopoly.”

Thank you for good advice.
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“I've been there, and I did well, but relative to what? In unison the other people in the group, in fact this happened, all turn their heads at me and shout, with vengeance, NO, at me, because of a question or statement I made that challenges their false notions, notions that are demonstrably false, they know it, and I know it, and that is why such things, in UNION, happen.”

What did you say to get the NO?

“My goal was to find out if those people were friends of Liberty or Foes, and I found out. That was back in time between Waco and Oklahoma City. You may not know much about Oklahoma City, but it was predicted, it was routine, and it was a False Flag.”

We stopped by OK City on the way back to MO from TX the year it happened. I cannot tell you the sorrow I felt inside. It was as if I could personally feel the sadness of the place. I had never been, nor have since been to a place of mass destruction so I do not know if that feeling is normal. Jeff did not feel what I felt. Maybe just a difference between male/female or personality mix.

“Oklahoma City intended to shut up the summer patriots who were shook up by Waco, and it worked, because summer patriots are like people playing with a hobby.”

But why OK City? Why not some place in Texas since Waco was in Texas? I haven’t gone back to try to figure stuff out about that. So do you think the guy who did it was an secret agent, or hired to do it or something?
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“Here is where you are wrong, because Liberty is essentially the same thing as the word of God, and you have the word of God worked out in principle to a point where you can teach those principles, and where, I am asking, is the word of God anywhere in opposition to Liberty?
If you find such opposition between the word of God and Liberty then we two have a problem on that point if you can find it.”

What do you think about this:

“Jesus said I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father but by me.”

Quoted from memory so I do not have the reference, but I believe it is in John. Jesus said HE is the ONLY WAY to the Father. I see liberty in that because I have the liberty of being forgiven and not standing in condemnation before the Father. However, many people see that as un-inclusive which is not liberating, but confining. How, Joe, do you see it?
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“As to the welcome proverb:
Don't own wisdom, it is God power?”

Get Wisdom. The beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord. Getting wisdom has to do with knowing what God says to do and to being willing to do it. Sometimes I find it in conflict with what I want to do.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/job/28-audio.html
Job 28: 20 Whence then cometh wisdom? and where is the place of understanding? 21 Seeing it is hid from the eyes of all living, and kept close from the fowls of the air. 22 Destruction and death say , We have heard the fame thereof with our ears. 23 God understandeth the way thereof, and he knoweth the place thereof. 24 For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven; 25 To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure. 26 When he made a decree for the rain, and a way for the lightning of the thunder: 27 Then did he see it, and declare it; he prepared it, yea, and searched it out . 28 And unto man he said , Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.
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Proverbs 5: http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/proverbs/5-audio.html

I did not do much in editing. Thank you for your help.

...

Know better as to knowing better?

"Maybe it was GE just ruining family roots?"

GE is a Legal Fiction that is well connected to other Legal Fictions in ways that defy accurate accounting; almost as if someone, somewhere, wanted to hide things from some other people, for some strange reason.

"That video [Money Masters] speaks quite about the Rothchilds/Rockefellers etc. How do you see the Jesuits working into the mix?"

I see the concept of placing names on the actual people who are being judged as the most powerful people involved in the commission of the worst crimes against other people.

How is that done, exactly?

Here is where pieces of the puzzle fit so well together.

If the idea is to place a name on the worst person who is injuring the most innocent people and that same person is currently injuring the most innocent people and that same person will injure the most innocent people if the least taxing thing isn't done right away, then how does that work, how does that idea work, in reality, not fantasy, in reality, how does that work?

Trial by Jury and Due Process of Law is not a foreign concept unless the person conceptualizing Trial by Jury and Due Process of Law is demonstrably, and accurately measurable, a victim of some crime, such as FRAUD.

A child raised to believe in a lie, to a point where the child is then defenseless against liars, growing up as a perpetual victim, providing the means by which we suffer, is an example of FRAUD.

So, supposing, with our thinking caps on, that there is this problem, and we can say that this problem is massive torture and massive murder, where the piles of rotting corpses inculpate someone, those on the pile didn't volunteer to be on the pile, who, who, who, did all that torture, and all that mass murder, and can anyone do anything about it?

The Terrorists did it?

The Government did it?

GE did it?

The Gun did it?

Jesus did it because he failed to show up in time?

How about a name.

Person A says, OH, by the way, I have inculpating evidence, these piles of rotting corpses, and the paper trail I've been on, up to this point, points to that person, whose name is "fill in the blank" and although that person is presumed to be innocent, the gravity of the crimes, several million tortured and dead innocent (or relatively innocent) people, rotting on a pile, is cause for Due Process of Law, if ever there was, or will be, Probable Cause for Due Process of Law.

CONSPIRACY THEORIST!

Where is my negative vote button when I need one?

Where are my blinders, ear plugs, and my muzzle, when I need them?

Where is that sand where I can stick my head so easily into, so warm, so dark, and so soft, and so, well...smelly, when I need that posterior orifice?

"The History of Oil again to really understand because I didn’t “get” all the mafia talk between chavez and our president."

No humor to it? The baby in that bathwater was the humor mixed with the concept of "The Magic Check Book", which is The Federal Reserve Fraud in Progress, and the bathwater was the "Peak Oil" and "Overpopulation" garbage that I prefer to throw out, and if there was no humor to it, then it was not to each their own humor, in this case. I laughed.

The Magic Check Book is not a wild fantasy. Ben Bernanke and his Club have control of The Magic Check Book.

Peal Oil is a FRAUD in progress. I think Lindsey Graham with his The Energy Non-Crisis book effectively refutes Peak Oil, kind of like Global Warming, and Overpopulation, as False Fronts, where there is about half of the truth being reported by well paid liars, knowing the false parts helps in guessing why someone is paid so well to lie so much.

"Stop paying taxes and supporting the State as much as possible."

This sounds like Capitalist Dogma to me, from the concept of Carl Menger, whereby everyone secures their own requirements as completely as possible to the exclusion of all others because wealth can only exist in a STATE of scarcity.

I would love to set Tom Woods down and discuss these things.

I won't be paying Federal Reserve Notes to Tom Woods so as to be ridiculed by him, so as to subject myself to deceit, and other political games more or less evil.

This is very bad for me, to be prejudging Tom Woods in this way, but the price of admission is priced out of my sense of wealth, it is too costly for me to invest in that way, since I've done that so many times, as to be now weaker, in my STATE of prejudiced thinking.

"What would make money so that it cannot be laundered?"

If you write an I.O.U. and sell that declaration of independence to someone else, for an equitable exchange of something as valuable in your estimate, and for an equitable exchange of something as valuable according to the person you transfer that I.O.U. to, then what is that, and how is that measured?

When that I.O.U. returns to you, is that I.O.U. yours or is that I.O.U. the property of someone else?

If that does not help answer the question you asked, then another angle of view may do a better job of answering the question you ask.

"What would make money so that it cannot be laundered?"

How about an experiment?

Go to the local Shopping Mall. Get all the permission you need from whoever controls the Shopping Mall, and set up a table in less busy areas, where only a few people pass by, occasionally.

On the table place one I.O.U., place your personal Check Book, your personal credit card (or a fake one, or expired one), and a stack of 100 100 dollar bills, and place a Gold Bar on the table (Gold plated, or gold painted, or get a real one if you have enough money to get a real 24 carat Solid Gold Bar).

Set up a hidden camera.

Now go away for a few days.

Return to the table, watch the record of what happens at that table.

Which form or money is stolen first?

Why is one form of money stolen first?

If you can't ask the criminals why they stole which money first, then try to get in a criminals shoes and think about which money you would steal first, if you were to steal any of that money on that table.

"What would make money so that it cannot be laundered?"

How much would it cost to make money so that it cannot be laundered, and who pays that cost?

"Josf, what if all those words (not just the Albright quote) written in that article are to subvert the people of the United States from supporting their government."

Well, now, you claim to not know anything?

That is exactly the point.

Legal Criminals can't allow the victims to invent, produce, and maintain anything like Trial by Jury, with sortition, and Due Process of Law, for if the victims had such a thing as Voluntary Anti-Despotism Insurance, or a Democratic Federated Republic, then they wouldn't be an abundant supply of ready victims.

So you figured it out, after all?

How long did it take you to figure the whole thing out?

It took me decades.

"However, next in mind is, perhaps the outside enemy is causing our government to do something that would cause the people’s loyalty to be removed from their government."

Conspiracy Theorist!

Where is my tin hat?

Where are my blinders, ear plugs, and muzzle?

Where is the gun that will somehow be blamed for shooting that messenger?

"But what if, the goal is to ruin this country thru media? I suppose that is the truth."

What is a medium of exchange?

What happens when a medium of exchange is purposefully deceptive?

What is in scripture concerning the One Language that became False, used by people who created a False God?

"Or what if we are just being told the government is the enemy so that we fall from within? I suppose that thought is me trying to hold on to a shred of decency, innocence and sanity?"

You need me? You have arrived at where I am.

This is the Big Picture.

What do you see?

If Liberty, by competitive means, such as Trial by Jury, Due Process of Law, Equity, Voluntary Anti-Despotism Insurance, Anarchism, Voluntary Capitalism competing with Voluntary Socialism, or whatever people invent, produce, and maintain, so as to AVOID being victims, in any way, victims from criminals without badges, or victims from criminals with badges, if that is allowed, then this does not happen:

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

If Liberty is allowed, then that is no more powerful than a bad dream that happened sometime in the past night.

BREAK

"How do you know which media source is a friend or foe?"

What is the effect of the message on the target audience?

"OK now I am wondering, was Oil for Food a money laundering operation? Whose? Those people that are funding both sides of the war?"

The effect was dead babies, lots of dead babies. That is the point. The person who wrote the book about Oil for Food blew the whistle, and the message, if understood, says: "I warned them, I told them, so they can't say they did not know, that what they did, would, and did, cause millions of infant deaths, and they did it anyway."

The person who blew the whistle was not some crackpot guy named Joe who lives in Barstow. The person who blew the whistle was the guy they mistakenly hired to do their dirty work, to "make it happen".

Make what happen?

HELLO!

Piles of infants who are now dead.

How is that not obvious?

There are people who have this goal.

What goal?

Piles of infants who are now dead.

Really?

Really?

Say it isn't so...Joe.

I'm not even the one delivering the message this time. The message was delivered, but not on a sliver platter, the message is in that book, and it is almost "The OFFICIAL TRUTH!"

Ta da!

Which piles of infants who are now dead, Madam Albright (who is not all that bright)?

Oh, oh, those, yea, yea, those, yes, yes, that pile of infants who are now dead, sure, sure, yup, we did it, and we knew we were doing it, but, seriously, the profits were huge, so, so, so, let's do it again, shall we?

"Is the US government the imperialist power?"

See? See how Language trips you up?

Please go along with my way of answering this question.

Get up.

Got to the bathroom.

Look in the mirror.

See a person picked randomly to sit on a Jury trial whereby someone is named, such as this Madam Albright, and the crime is named, such as that pile of infants who are now dead, and the charge is something and something, and you have the legal privilege spoken of by Patrick Henry, the thing lost in 1788.

Get on your thinking cap.

You are the Juror.

Do you ask Madam Albright the following question:

"Is the US government the imperialist power?"

She says, yup, it was that Legal Fiction right there, bad, bad, bad Legal Fiction, blame it, and by the way, Mrs. Bear, you still owe US many Federal Reserve Notes, and thanks for not questioning that fact.

And by the way, the new owners of you may be collecting their debts from China, if things go along on our schedule.

Whose schedule?

I've been handed the script, but I don't get the memos.

"Not me. I do not pay for that. I did not need to look in the mirror. I do not pay for that. I am paying for all the people in Lowry City who do not work. That is for what I am paying, those people are becoming precious to me now as they absorb my tax money."

Here is where I tend to fast forward myself to that not yet realized Day of Judgment.

I'm there, perhaps Jesus is present, perhaps some other POWER, an Angel, or God is the inquisitor at that timeless event.

I say:

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Judgment POWER says:

Hold on, Joe, not so fast, what about this paper trail right here, and here, and here, and here, and you thought about this more than once, so you can't say you didn't know, I know, you know, and you know I know, and I know you know that I know.

Too wordy?

But God, I asked, really, and I though you helped me find a lot of competitive answers, and I did try to warn my fellow Friends of Liberty, and you did send me Bear.

Judgement power is tapping, tapping, tapping, a foot, impatience, so many judgments, timeless judgments, but the excuses become so yesterday.

And...

Well, I tried to believe, really I did, honestly, I tried, but...

No butts.

"How in the world do you think we are going to peacefully do anything?"

There are no short cuts.

"Do you actually think we will get away with peacefully doing anything? A BIG NO coming from my account. It will not be peaceful even if the Friends of Liberty never fire a shot. We will be fired upon. We and the rest of the people here in this land from sea to shining sea. By the way, one of the parents at my children’s school, probably the wealthiest, told me if Obama was re-elected they would move to an island somewhere to escape tyranny."

Look, please, the power struggle can't escape the numbers power, this is math, it is very simple.

If enough people decide, in their sleep, the revolution is over before tomorrow morning.

How?

How many ways are there?

If you want ONE way, then work that out with math too.

We all decide to be independent by such and such a day, and to put an exclamation point on our resolve to be independent we use July 4th to congregate, armed, in Washington D.C. by that date, one year from now.

You don't get it still?

We decide to create our destiny, by such and such a date, and between now and then, we can refine the competitive options as time goes by, while our intentions are well broadcast, our Modern Declaration of Independence.

Your idea, your ONE solution that fits all, could work, ARMED, and no one fires a shot, because that is how MATH works.

There aren't enough Legal Criminals to win such a fight as a scaled up version of The Athens Tennessee example.

The Failure of The American Revolution, the first time, was not enough Friends of Liberty and too many Loyalists when push came to shove.

Had the news arrived, in time, to The King, at the time, that the POWER of Independence in America is not just X, it is X to the 3rd power, then The King, if not completely Insane, would get out his calculator and conclude, that the battle isn't profitable.

As it was The King was lead into a defeat, by greater powers, but the point is to point out what happens when an overwhelming POWER will be enough POWER to DETER a lesser POWER.

You don't get this, do you?

Our POWER is the source of their POWER.

Liberty is the source of the POWER that is stolen by Legal Criminals.

If we want to we just stop paying, we stop providing the means by which we suffer.

What happens?

We stop suffering.

How fast?

How fast do we want to stop suffering?

IT ISN'T ON OUR CALENDERS!

Why not?

They are too powerful?

Where do they get their power?

Why is this hard to see?

"Yes, and the other thing I thought on concerning all of those lies told is: what if each lie had been refuted with the truth each step of the way? Who is going to tell the truth each time a lie is told?"

The BIG LIE is the one that says: Your voluntary government can't work, so you have to provide the means by which we suffer.

That is the closed loop, in so many words in English, but the actual damage done is inside individual brains, and my Litmus Tests are aimed at providing the means by which that LIE is rendered POWERLESS.

If possible.

"I don’t know if my wise pop told her how to handle me or if she just figured, why try to counter…or has she decided that I just may have something she may like to know."

I am not alone, by your example, and by the examples provided, in part, by my own mother, and close people, who entertain what I have to say, to their limit, and I don't push, if I can discover my pushing before I push, and if you help me see where I push, then I work at removing those examples too.

My dad had a lot to say to me just before he died, and I wasn't listening to the words, so much as I was being his son at those precious moments, but my dad was not one to listen to my viewpoints, he was more the one to speak.

My dad often announced to his assembled progeny how (to Joey) "we are going to miss you around here" after my often repeated words (to dad) "you said that already".

Does that sound familiar? Dad was shooting the messenger.

"Why did we have the Indian Wars?"

Indians don't "provide the means by which we suffer"?

That is a problem for Legal Criminals to solve.

Legal Criminals have a few versions of the same Final Solution.

They dress up as their targets, in this case Indians, then they go and slaughter a bunch of Tax Payers (who are providing the means by which they suffer in this case too), in these cases they are known as "Settlers", and then the Legal Criminals blame the slaughter of Settlers on the Indians, this is called a False Flag, and so what is the solution to the problem of Indians who are living on the land that is very valuable land, but those damn Indians won't pay those land taxes, so how do we solve this problem, where, suddenly, like magic, weapons and ammunition are flowing to the Indians, and the Settlers, and there is a massive orgy of destruction, women and children on both sides slaughtered and pile up in huge piles, and then, still like magic, people with One Legal Money come along and claim to own the people, the land, and the Law, so pay, and pay, and pay, and don't question paying.

Does that sound at all familiar?

I found a book, I told you about this, an old book, the title of the old book is The Lost State of Franklin. My nephew has my copy, if I remember right.

Here:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Lost-State-Franklin-Directions/dp/...

In that book there is a reference to slaughtered settlers slaughtered by "white" people dressed up as Indians.

A few sentences in English, in context of a wider story line, a historical reference, that is not taught in Public Schools.

60 dollar books?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0890510687/ref=dp_olp...

I saw that book reach higher than 60 dollars a copy.

Not For Public Consumption (official)

"Joe’s Law? Does Joe’s Law require honesty as a catalyst? Or does honesty lead to competition and that is what Joe’s Law requires?"

Honesty is measurable?

Something accurate is transferred from one person to another person or from one person to many people, and that accurate transfer travels through a medium of exchange, and the result of that transfer can be measured as greater power after the transfer compared to the amount of power existing before the transfer?

Are accurate, or true, ideas powerful?

How about another thought experiment?

Two scenarios occur in two separate future situations on Earth.

1.
A new disease is invented by someone and then produced by a few people, and this disease includes a known cure, only known by those few people, and the disease spreads much faster than anything ever known by mankind.
The disease and cure is Patented, but pending.

2.
A new disease lands on earth through a moon rock or a rock from Mars, and once released into the Earth atmosphere there is a mad scramble by everyone who can help to find the antidote, or cure, and get that antidote, or cure, to as many people as possible, as soon as possible, because the disease spreads so fast that time is running out, quickly, and a few days is all we have left, before the Human Species is wiped off the face of the Earth.

The Diseases in either case are forms of currency, and the medium of exchange can be water, air, spit, or whatever carries the thing that is the disease, as the disease may be multiplying rapidly, one becomes two, two becomes four, etc.

The Cure, or Antidote, in either case are forms of currency, and the medium of exchange can be water, are, spit, or whatever carries the thing that is the Cure, or Antidote, as the Cure, or Antidote, may be multiplying rapidly, one becomes two, two becomes four, etc.

How is that not analogous to falsehood and truth?

"Joe’s Law? Does Joe’s Law require honesty as a catalyst? Or does honesty lead to competition and that is what Joe’s Law requires?"

Can I patent honesty and collect royalties?

Is it useful to understand that some people do patent lies and they are collecting on those lies?

Productive Power works the opposite way compared to Destructive Power, and that can be seen in Joe's Law.

BREAK

Suppose the Power Law is used with two competitive forms of power as such:

1.
ACPPP (Accurate Communication Providing Productive Power)

2.
FDVDP (Fraud Deceiving Victims Destroying Power)

ACPPP produced into oversupply reduces the price of ACPPP while Purchasing Power Increases because ACPPP reduces the cost of producing.

FDVPP produced into oversupply increases the price of PDVPP while Purchasing Power Decreases because FDVPP increases the cost of production.

BECAUSE: Power consumed in the process of reaching the goal of destruction removes the power required in producing things.

I can quote from your own words, if I go back and find your own words, or I can try to remember your own words having to do with moving in the negative direction (destruction) goes opposite the positive direction and that accounting can be known as a compounding of COST relative to BENEFIT since the EXPENSES are CONSUMED one way or the other.

Cost expended in the work of destruction could be costs expended in the work of production, so, costs spent in the work of destruction destroys, and those costs could have produced, and what happens on the wrong past is DEATH and what happens on the right path is LIFE.

If the goal is DEATH then why not just jump off a cliff?

Well, the goal isn't my DEATH, it is yours, but that is a trade secret.

Patent Pending.

So...pay and don't ask so many questions.

"Is God were a raving utopian lunatic?"

Ask a high paid liar, and what can you trust in the answer?

"My interpretation of the question was that you did not think God wrote the Bible. This, to me, is the most important question to answer: Did God write the Bible?"

The question is vital, and therefore the answer must be accurate. If God is what I think God is then the answer is yes, so long as The Bible works to keep life going, as so as The Bible works to destroy life, there is then a measure of POWER that opposes God.

Wrote

That is an English word: wrote.

The actual POWER involved in producing The Bible is very complex, involving the creation of hydrogen from whatever POWER created hydrogen, and then things become even more complicated after that event, which occurred a long time before humans were created.

That is all well beyond my capacity to know better.

If someone does know better, and they are human, then it stands to reason, it seems to me, that I can know better too?

"Is registering with the selective service the same thing as a draft? Was there something different going on during the Korean war as far as calling people into military service?"

I do not know about the specific answers, but the general answers are obvious. Legal Criminals make the crime of Kidnapping Legal, when they do it, while Kidnapping done by anyone else is cause for Legal Criminals to claim that they need to Kidnap all the innocent people sooner then their competitors who may Corner the Kidnapping market.

Kidnapping is like the first stage of slavery?

Might makes right again?

Who says?

What is the Standard of Right?

What is the Standard of Value?

"I don’t have any peer avoiding national tax that I know of. And if they are they need to keep it to themselves."

A person on Welfare is a Tax Evader Extraordinaire.

Tax Evasion on Steroids?

Please consider that, and please consider wasting no time with the nickel and dime Welfare Collectors, when considering Welfare as a form of Tax Evasion, since Ben Bernanke, and Company, excel, so well, at Collecting their Welfare Checks, with 13 digits, and they don't even have to expend all the costs of standing in line on a schedule made by someone else.

"What is, or who has, the account number where the hidden funds are kept?"

Juror Bear would be a formidable example of Righteous Law Power, no wonder the Legal Criminals had to get rid of Trial by Jury!

"My question is very simplistic. But I want to know where the money is."

We, simpletons that we are, may not fully understand the Official Record Recorded in Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports.

I think that those Reports Reported exactly where all the money IS.

That is the point.

Hey.

What?

Here is the money you stole, so why are you still perpetrating this fraud, where you keep this second set of books?

What set of books?

This set of books.

Oh that set of books.

Yes this set of books.

What was the question?

Here is the money you stole, so why are you still perpetrating this fraud, where you keep this second set of books?

What set of books?

Please, fellow members of the jury, note how the accused is evading the question.

"Yes, that seems to be happening as I am able to be honest and as the environment feels safe."

Within reason.

"What did you say to get the NO?"

I don't remember. The time period was between Waco and Oklahoma City, back when you were still asleep?

The Friend of Liberty who was on my side told be about it after the meeting. I did not notice it at the time, since my question was vital, and my response to all the NO answers was accurate, and that appeared to cause silence, and then the rest of the people in the meeting moved on to other things. I remember that much, and my Friend of Liberty may remember more than I do, but I no longer keep current discussions going with him.

We had sat in the back so Dave, my Friend of Liberty, was able to view the entire room. Dave suggested my bid for Congress, and he helped with the many signatures required to reduce the Federal Reserve Note TAX demanded by the Authorities who enforce the rules they make their victims follow, while they happily ignore those same rules.

That rule is called: Petition In Lieu of Filing Fee

Legal Criminals have each other falling over each other to finance their Tours of Duty at the HELM, so the victims are told to jump this and that hoop, so as to make it look legitimate.

My "Run" for "Congress" was educational, and I can speak with that authority, had I not done so it could be claimed that I have no authority, why, Joe, you are merely a working stiff.

Yes, I am, and...

"But why OK City? Why not some place in Texas since Waco was in Texas? I haven’t gone back to try to figure stuff out about that. So do you think the guy who did it was an secret agent, or hired to do it or something?"

I am not good at speculating. My educated guess is that the main Patsy was very well programed, a very effective defender of Ideas pounding into his soul, and so he was primed for this job very well, but he was not alone, that is always the tip off, the Litmus Test, where any reasonable person can be clued in on the true measure of the crime. When the real Criminals say that it was an isolated incident, a Lone Gunman, who acted alone, then know better.

That is a lie.

They are changing the lie, they are adapting, now the Lone Gunmen are being replaced with Terrorists, and that works better at deception, since the obvious fact that the Lone Gunman did not work alone is no longer troublesome. Terrorists are groups of Lone Gunman, acting in isolated incidents, like storms, or like locust.

Fear them, and allow US to take care of them, we know better, you don't.

Why are they terrorizing us, why so many Lone Gunman working in harmony, why is Insanity Contagious in this case?

Well that is troublesome, sure, but we can handle it, but we are broke, so pay more, and then we can get down to our exclusive business. We know better, you can't. Sorry.

"However, many people see that as un-inclusive which is not liberating, but confining. How, Joe, do you see it?"

That is a principle question, and the answer is the same, but the answer does not cover the details. Sure, there is this and that way to do the right thing, in principle, and I agree, wholeheartedly, and without reservation, but what is my next step?

The goal is life (everlasting according to some) and I agree.

The goal is life.

What is my next step?

Joe:
"If you find such opposition between the word of God and Liberty then we two have a problem on that point if you can find it."

I don't think that there is any difference in Principle between The World of God spoken by anyone, and the Principles of Liberty spoken by anyone, and if there is contradiction then it may be worthy to take a step to resolve that specific contradiction, when Life is the goal, and where torturous death (of other people) for fun and profit is not the goal.

"The beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord."

That to me is a case in point.

I see no point in fearing God, or "the Lord", but that may be an entirely different subject. Wisdom, if it is some thing, in my opinion is a POWER held by God and mere human beings are, at best, poor at making copies.

BREAK

"And unto man he said , Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding."

My capacity to employ English to invent, produce, and offer massages is poor, and my POWER to understand some things written in English is even poorer.

Proverbs 5?

What is the balance between seeking instruction and employing it?

In other words: if instructed to only seek instruction, is the person ever in command of any act?

If the instruction is to seek instruction so as to act positively, then what is to be done when the instruction is to only seek instruction?

Joe