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July 4th 2013 Liberty Day Challenge

Two directions are possible from this moment on as proven by historical precedent. Either be subjected to suffering by Legalized Criminals and be forced to pay all debts collected in that evil enterprise or move in the direction of Liberty.

Make my day.

How about July 4th 2013?

If by that date the American people, as one, have invented, produced, and supplied a number of competitive legal monies, then those American people will take back their power to prosper, at will, for their own and for posterity.

Sign on in spirit or sign on in actual reality, either way the days will move in a direction and the Legal Criminals score their progress with or without your willful participation toward their goal of absolute despotism.

May God have mercy on our souls.

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OK, I have to go to bed.

OK, I have to go to bed. Here is my scripture you asked me to find:

Eph 4:25Wherefore putting awaylying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry , and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil. 28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour , working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth . 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers . 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

ISO scares me...not just the women in the video...the whole idea that there are people that support that ideology here in this land from sea to shining sea. And for some strange reason, I thought you were telling me to be one of them. Then there is the Occupy movement which is funded by some bad folks, at least that is what I heard. There is Anarchy of the wrong kind and I think it is going to be used and incited when we have economic collapse to cleanse the population. Hatred is rampant and hatred turns to murder. Please watch the war horse clip toward the end. I see the land from sea to shining sea as that horse and we are in dire trouble so much to the point that we are tangled and cannot get free.

When I do not want to use my name, I am thinking more of the creeps out there more than the government. But then again everyone is on facebook with their names pictures and everything else so I don't know why I should be so paranoid. I am sure Homeland Security already knows who I am. My husband is a Baptist pastor, we are white, we have pro life stickers on our cars, ron paul stickers on our cars, our kids go to private school...and who knows what else they know about me, they might be watching me type for all I know.

Good night

Please remain as anonymous as allows you to sleep at night, mother bear needs her strength to fight another day, in my opinion.

Joe

Coincidences?

My guitar teacher is Christian. I don't know if that means that he is a born again Christian. I don't ask, I ask music questions.

The past few months or so I have been writing my own script in music and playing routine exercises, and the idea returns more than once that I want to pick out a song by The Beatles, but I do not act on that, I keep working an alternating routine of writing my own stuff, improvising, and playing basic exercises.

This just past Saturday lesson I offer my guitar teacher my latest version of what I call The New Marching Christian Soldiers, based upon his instructions to work on E major arranged with suspended chords.

I play this new song (no words, but you don't understand that music speaks, it is not English, music voices messages in music, not English, or perhaps you do understand that now), I play or demonstrate my current version of The New Marching Christian Soldiers and I explain to the teacher how the title was invented because of a person on a Political Economy Forum, a Christian I say, is actually discussing Political Economy, which is very rare, so the Song Title is based upon this Bear person who is one of The New Marching Christian Soldiers, as far as that song goes in that context. Just, and only just, me learning how to play the guitar, specifically E major with E suspended chords, some other chords, and it has a religious sound to it.

We played those chords and the Guitar Teacher compared the subtle differences between changes from the root to suspended chords and the sound, inspiring the feeling, when changing the root to a 7th chord, etc.

I used the English word to describe the religious sound from the E Major root to the E suspended chord as being this or that emotion in English, but now I forgot the English word, but I could remember it if play that chord change.

Side Note:

I was late to the lesson and we found the e-mail that had the wrong time, attributable to my mistake, but an honest mistake, I was merely wrong, and so I told my teacher that my memory is very bad, so bad that I forget to distrust my memory.

The Guitar teacher keeps pushing me toward a specific set of chords he considers to be the right direction I need to go at this point and I don't like the song he is pushing and so he picks another song out of his head, and it is a Beatles song.

Wow!

I say, that works out great, and it is funny, in a good way, that I've been thinking about picking a Beatles song for awhile now, I just haven't told you, and now you pick one for me.

My Guitar teacher looks up the song on his laptop and says, Wow, that is exactly the chords I was just playing, the one's I am trying to get you to work on.

Amazing we both agree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaY7TwMBHuc&feature=related

Here are the lyrics:

___________________________________________
I look at you all see the love there that's sleeping
While my guitar gently weeps
I look at the floor and I see it needs sweeping
Still my guitar gently weeps.

I don't know why nobody told you

How to unfold your love
I don't know how someone controlled you
They bought and sold you.

I look at the world and I notice it's turning
While my guitar gently weeps
With every mistake we must surely be learning
Still my guitar gently weeps.

I don't know how you were diverted
You were perverted too
I don't know how you were inverted
No one alerted you.

I look at you all see the love there that's sleeping
While my guitar gently weeps
Look at you all...
Still my guitar gently weeps.
______________________________________________

That is the first time I ever read those lyrics, and it seems to be instructive English words.

Now, people, the wrong idea can find it's way into some perspectives, there is no need for me to look anywhere for romance of any kind, I have more than I can handle with my wife, as we have just managed to pass our 25th Wedding Anniversary. Errors are made in perspectives all the time, there is no need to make that error, if that error appears to be forming.

Love is an English word that can convey accurate meaning or like all words it can convey counterfeit meaning.

I do not love anyone but one person, my wife, if the word won't be understood by anyone who can't understand the true meaning of the word.

Conveying real time occurrences, honestly, and accurately can be instructive, there are powers at work that may not be fully understood by mere mortals, and if that isn't an accurate statement of fact, then I would like to hear one instead of that false one.

Joe

Music

Lest any impropriety be suggested: Music, but another way for this Baptist Pastor’s wife to share the Love of Jesus with Josf in perhaps a language that is understandable.

I was hoping that perhaps music could speak in a way that I cannot. I liked the first song because I thought it amusing that the other 3 guys on the stage were doing all they could to keep from jamming! I don’t know anything about cording or what kind of notes were being played. It just seemed like the artist was having a good time and I like the words and music of the song too. I cant hear music talk. I can only hear the lyrics.

The 2nd song I picked because of the souls crying out to the Lord asking Him to remind them of who they are to Him. I hope you watched the whole thing. Each of those broken hearted pictures were taped to the artist’s guitar in the last scene and each placard said “Beloved” Because that is who we are when we belong to Him. We are His beloved.

Jeff and I have been married 28 years. RE: our 25th, I had just had exploratory surgery and finished chemo 3 months earlier. Jeff packed me up and took me on our 25th anniversary weekend. I was still sick, and he loved me all the same. There is nothing like being loved.

Did your guitar teacher like your New Marching Christian Soldiers? Are you still working on it? I hope I have been a small light of a great Christ in that you might like to know him. I pray for you that you will come to know him. Do you know if your teacher goes to a certain church? It is interesting that he gave you a song from the Beatles. So, that is the song you will be working on now? Is that a hard cord pattern to accomplish?

Yes, my memory is so bad I forget the load that is still in the wash thinking I can take care of the clothes in the dryer the next day. It is too hot here to leave laundry in the washer overnight. I have done that twice this week and I was bewildered both times that there were not just clothes waiting in the dryer. Hopefully I will do better this week.

Adaptive perceptions

"Each of those broken hearted pictures were taped to the artist’s guitar in the last scene and each placard said “Beloved” Because that is who we are when we belong to Him."

I did not hear that message, not in the music, not in the words, and not in the visual story.

I saw people who are true to themselves and they held up the false labels falsely attributed to them by false people who find some false reason to falsify the true measure of the people who are what they are despite the false label.

"There is nothing like being loved."

The meaning of living can be known in this way, it seems to me.

"Did your guitar teacher like your New Marching Christian Soldiers?"

It was appreciated in many ways, not merely the fact that I take his instruction and I follow it, but I return with vital questions, and he obviously appreciates being fully capable of providing the accurate answers, in this case, in particular the original arrangement scribbled on paper, in what I call his Mozart script, was incomplete, and I don't know if he realized it when he wrote it, or if he was testing me, but I came back with questions concerning "something missing" and he was ready with the answer, but he did not dictate the answer, he allowed me to play around some while I demonstrated the missing-ness, and he said that is it, all you have to do is what you just did, repeat the last two measures.

He is a teacher, and I am a student, neither of us pretend to be otherwise, no counterfeiting, so the arrangement is equitable and mutually productive.

"Are you still working on it?"

The New Marching Christian Soldiers may inspire me to write lyrics, as the sounds appear to be saying something in English the more I play it, so yes, I am working on it, some this morning.

Your popular OP was a top 10 hit, and if it turns out to be 1 hit wonder, then I am curious, somewhat curious, as to why the next OP was less popular. I was inspired to respond, but that is not out of character.

What is popular compared to that which is taxing?

Joe

Being Lazy

"I saw people who are true to themselves and they held up the false labels falsely attributed to them by false people who find some false reason to falsify the true measure of the people who are what they are despite the false label."

Isn't it interesting how 2 people can see things in 2 different ways. I would never had considered your perspective if you hadn't told me. And of course, I would have figured you saw it from my perspective because I didn't figure that there was another one. Then again, you are the one that turns things at different angles so as to view them. I am still pretty myopic even when considering that you have a perspective LOL.

I have a question about the first music video “Jesus in Disguise” I hear what sounds like percussion blocks being hit together on the heavy down stroke. Is the guitarist making that sound or is it someone else unseen?

Yes, my OP last week may have been a one hit wonder. I changed the title of this one but people may not want to rant. Maybe that is divisive?

I think this has been a very low learning week on my part. I have been messing around instead of applying myself. But one thing I am noticing on the DP, there is a lot of Christian bashing and a lot of people are blaming the wars on “Christians.” People are also really upset about Chick fil A too. Can you explain it to me from a non Christian perspective. I looked at the history of some of the user ID’s and they have been around for a month. Are they being sent in to divide Friends of Liberty, or do you think there is a real issue with Christians that I should take note of. I feel the need to defend and educate, but some of it seems like it would be a lost cause and I just don’t have the fight in me.

Can you also give me the definition of a true capitalist and a conterfeit. Are true versions of socialists and capitalists diametrically opposed?

Good guess?

"Is the guitarist making that sound or is it someone else unseen?"

I heard that time keeping percussion sound and looked for any visible explanation, not finding any, my guess is that the technique is just not easy to see, but it is done by the guitar player. I've seen people do that, so it is not out of the question.

"Yes, my OP last week may have been a one hit wonder. I changed the title of this one but people may not want to rant. Maybe that is divisive?"

Many people are so well trained at following: they do not demand competitive examples of leadership, all they want is to get handed a script, so the first HIT may have been supplying that demand more than this one.

I don't know what it takes to inspire participation in the vital need to ask the right questions and refuse to tolerate anything but the accurate answers.

My guesses are not good enough, and I have no interest in supplying a demand for more entertainment or more lies.

"Maybe that is divisive?"

I can see that, you separate those who want entertainment or orders to obey without question, you separate them from what they want, so you divide them from what they want, as to the dictionary meaning:

"Tending to cause disagreement or hostility between people."

Legal Criminals have that covered, from many angles, and it is in the scripts given to those who read scripts, so I if your offering is original, and taxing, meaning your offering challenges someone to think for themselves, then you are not inspiring someone to fight someone else out of thin air, the objects of concern exist, and have existed, well before you were born, so to ask people to voice their concerns, in my opinion, does not produce things to be concerned about, it merely taxes a person's power to employ their minds in that direction, to me.

"People are also really upset about Chick fil A too. Can you explain it to me from a non Christian perspective."

I have somehow managed to avoid knowing anything about that situation other than a few comments made to me by my wife, and I had nothing to say about it to her either.

What is Chick Fil A?

The information I heard so far is that it has to do with Legal Criminals lying and the victims believing in those lies much like Dogs drooling at the sound of a bell ringing.

Is it similar to making it illegal to sell large drinks?

Is it similar to making it only lawful for criminals to have guns?

Is it similar to enforcing involuntary payments so as to force people to hide from any inspiration to contribute toward effective defense?

"I feel the need to defend and educate, but some of it seems like it would be a lost cause and I just don’t have the fight in me."

My guess is that it is the work of agent provocateurs, where power is being spent to divert attention away from very important things being done elsewhere.

If it is a Nation of script readers then all that is needed is for someone to write a script and hand it out, what script won't they read, and believe, since fraud, torture, and serial killing is legal - what falsehood won't they believe when that is already common misdirection?

"Can you also give me the definition of a true capitalist and a conterfeit. Are true versions of socialists and capitalists diametrically opposed?"

This is so funny to me, since I am, often, one of the most well spoken capitalists in any group, when the subject has to do with figuring out how to price something, and that is because capitalism, the true version, is merely a method of pricing that is based upon the measure of how scarce the things being priced is relative to the supply of buyers willing to pay a price.

That is all that capitalism is, as far as my study goes, and anything else is falsely attached to capitalism by false capitalists who are trying to take credit for things that they do not earn.

The second part of your question is one of the best questions you have asked so far, in my opinion. You have asked some very good questions so far, so this isn't a minor estimate.

"Are true versions of socialists and capitalists diametrically opposed?

There is almost no connection to speak about between a capitalist who is merely setting a price based upon a capitalist model of pricing something as high as possible relative to the demand for the thing being priced, and someone else, or even the same person, who is then going to use the scientific method to study society so as to employ that knowledge in the work of improving society.

Capitalism is one thing (a very specific method of pricing)

Socialism is another thing entirely.

If anything Capitalism is a specific product of Socialism if English can convey any meaning.

If Falsehood is employed then Capitalism can mean anything one minute and the opposite thing the next minute and so can Socialism, so the counterfeit version of Capitalism can be exactly the same thing as the counterfeit version of Socialism, or directly opposites, depending upon which false definition works for the deceiver best at any given moment.

Joe

Thank you

Thank you for giving me the definitions of capitalism and socialism. I seem to remember I was supposed to ask a question and then answer it myself at least 2 different ways. It is so much easier just to ask and then let you give the answer. At least you know what you are talking about :) It seems I have left a lot of unanswered posts here last week. Almost like leaving clothes in the washer, I can't even remember the discussion. I'll take time tomorrow and try to go thru and see if there is anything left hanging that needs answered. I know I still need to ask you about Parasite City. When I do, I will try to formulate my questions with competitive answers, if I can remember how to do that. Thank you for your help.

a bear

I don't know how not to be a slave even if my parents told me to jump of a bridge or work as hard as I can to get lots of money. I only now know that I am a slave. And this slave is hoping for a Knight in Shining Armor named Ron Paul so I don’t have to see an armory broken into or my husband’s and sons’ blood spilled jumping off a cliff as the drones circle around. On the other hand New Hampshire is trying to garner 20,000 Friends of Liberty to make that state a sanctuary. There are some folks in Montana, who’s intentions I do not understand.

Both Jeff’s dad and my dad died alone. It is nice that you were with your dad and he was able to speak to you. Don’t join anything. Jeff’s dad went to Korea, so did my step dad who is coming over this afternoon. Jeff’s dad did not talk about it. All my stepdad will say about it is how the little children went to the garbage dump to eat. He speaks of that often. He and my mom voted for Ron Paul in the primaries. I hope they will have the opportunity to vote for him in the national election. The Granger thinks that GJ is only in the race to thwart RP. She has a completely different world view being Catholic and all, she is a sweetheart as far as I can tell. I still cannot understand why you and dw couldn’t the same page. He just doesn’t want any taxes period. You want to collect a little. What for? I want to know what the reality of your picture looks like. I thought Anarchists did not want any government so in order to keep from having government no taxes are to be paid. Please help me understand the color of these pieces and where they fit. I am but a bear.

Room for misunderstanding

Too much room for misunderstanding is a problem.

"You want to collect a little."

Help?

I want to collect a little help in defense of Liberty.

What will actually be written on my cardboard grave marker with the charcoal on the end of a burnt stick?

"Here Lies Joe Kelley"

"He wanted to collect a little TAX."

That is wonderful!

What a legacy.

And here I was, today, imagining eternity in hell, whereby trillions of souls never get to stand for one moment on Earth, and when I go to hell I can be one in a trillion souls who can say: "I STOOD ON EARTH!"

Talk about celebrity.

Gather round all you lost souls and envy me with unlimited jealously for I stood on EARTH in human flesh, and not only did I stand on EARTH, poor lost souls all, I stood for something.

Having this science fiction novel playing in my head on the drive back from my Guitar Lesson I was yelling this declaration of accomplishment in Space Time, yes, yes, I STOOD ON EARTH.

I felt the heat of the sun.

I felt pain, and I felt pleasure.

I lived!

But on my cardboard grave marker, written in charcoal, or lip balm, is Joe Kelley died for TAXES?

Perhaps there is a slight chance that my viewpoints are not understood as accurately as is humanly possible.

"I still cannot understand why you and dw couldn’t the same page. He just doesn’t want any taxes period. You want to collect a little. What for? I want to know what the reality of your picture looks like."

Dw has a mind made up, of what I can only guess, but it is closed.

If you, and he, and anyone else, can't understand how the word TAX is used by Legal Criminals to cover up the crime of theft made legal, then you can't, and he can't, and everyone else who can't: can't.

What does that have to do with me or my legacy to the world as I see it?

I not only stood on earth, breathing air, I am still standing, and I not only stood for something, I am still sanding for Liberty on EARTH.

If there is such a thing as a perceptible eternity and within that expanse there is this flash of life on Earth, here today and gone tomorrow, and I am one of the humans who was allowed to experience life in that fleeting span of miniscule time, then by God while I'm here I am standing for something.

Give me Liberty or get the hell out of my way.

I am standing for something by God.

You can do as you please.

Joe

I completely (as much as I

If I have to I will go get the quote, but I understood you said something about collecting the MINIMUM (which is the not the word I said earlier) for the collective good. Or something to that effect. I just want to know what that meant.

I completely (as much as I can so completely is probably not the best word, because I have only understood it since my JK education) understand that taxes are collected and used by Legal Criminals thru the Fed and IRS system.

Are you talking about T.E. as recourse, because I am not even going to say the words.

Thank you teacher Bear

"I just want to know what that meant."

I take care when I write, and when I speak, again, I ran for congress, people asked questions in real time, I answered questions without a teleprompter.

I said that the minimum tax is to question authority.

Is that not understandable?

The reason why the minimum tax is to question authority is such that devils in human form will pretend to be God, so failure to own up to the minimum tax can turn out to be blind obedience to absolute evil.

That paragraph just written is meant to speak in your language, it is English, but the terms, like God, and The Devil, may help you understand the message I care enough to tax my brain, and tax my capacity, and tax my power to bridge the gap between what I know to be the truth and what you may want to know if it is the truth.

"I completely (as much as I can so completely is probably not the best word, because I have only understood it since my JK education) understand that taxes are collected and used by Legal Criminals thru the Fed and IRS system."

Here is the genius behind this particular invention of deceit, if I stumble, if I make an error, I may actually use the wrong word, and then the intended message is easily misunderstood.

If I say: "The Legal Criminals tax the victims."

If I say that then the word TAX is associated with what the Legal Criminals willfully do to their victims.

I have made an error.

I should say: "The Legal Criminals injure their victims."

Now the message is less easily confused.

Why is there so much confusion?

How many people send their hard earned "fruits of their labor" (surplus wealth denominated in U.S. Federal Reserve Note units) to the I.R.S. because they want to buy soldiers sent to other countries to steal oil?

How many people work harder so as to invest in cheaper gasoline prices, and so those people contribute, voluntarily, to the effort whereby armed soldiers are shipped to oil countries and those soldiers are ordered to destabilize that country, to make the people in that country very weak, and to then make it possible to steal the oil and then it is possible to have actual value backing the Fraudulent Money produced by the private corporation know falsely as The Federal Reserve?

So there are now 3 very confusing sentences and each of those sentences can be accurate in one case and not accurate in another case, and the accuracy depends upon who is sending power to whom, and why they are sending power.

1.
The Legal Criminals tax the victims.

2.
The Legal Criminals injure the victims.

3.
The Legal Criminals accept donations.

I can even add more sentences that apply to other people sending power to those people who commit crimes with that loot.

4.
The Legal Criminals accept investment payments from investors.

No matter what motive, or wording, the fact remains that payments, in dollars, flows from the many to those few.

Crime hidden behind tax, again, is a very ingenious deception as it works better the more convoluted it gets, so the unraveling of the intricate well woven web of deceit is problematic.

If you pay a tax so as to invest in a Fire Department, and a Defensive Military, then someone who doesn't pay "their fair share" is understood to be a "Tax Evader" who is as well protected as the Tax Payer, in case of fire, or in case of invasion by foreign military troops.

What happens if the foreign army of invaders already occupy The White House, Congress, and The Federal Reserve, and more to the point, what if the foreign army of invaders wrote, or had someone write, The Constitution?

Is that a case of a closed loop?

No way out.

Too bad for US.

Joe

Authority

OK I want back and looked for minimum tax. I don't know why I didn't switch from the collecting of money (injuring of victims) to the minimum “tax” which is required of those that love liberty to being that of questioning authority. It is difficult to begin questioning authority when one is raised with the mindset of respecting authority. Unfortunately, it was never discussed that authority can become bad. On the other hand, these days some children could care less what an adult says because they see no one as authority. I think there needs to be a balance. All authority is not bad when it is good?

Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

i.e., Watch those who lead and who teach the Word of God. Follow them while doing so, be careful to consider what they do. (Conversation = manner of life, conduct, behaviour, deportment. [another word whose meaning has changed since the 1600’s]). So I am supposing that it is ok to have authority in the sense of someone in leadership, but be ready to question if their works do not match God’s word.

Do you consider all authority involuntary?

Epiphany ?

"All authority is not bad when it is good?"

Can an epiphany be less than sudden?

Realization?

Authority that is earned is a voluntary association, those who seek true authority find it where it is, not where it is not, and just because someone questions authority does not mean that someone volunteers to reject all authority everywhere?

If something is good, it makes sense that evil people will counterfeit it so as to use the counterfeit version to hide their crimes (involuntary associations).

Criminals don't say, hey, wow, look how good authority is, so I'm going to make an exact copy, and I'll try to sell my exact copy of true authority to people who may want some of my authority, and I may even make mine better than the original!

Criminals say, hey, look at that competitor, taking away some of my victims, how can I corrupt that competitor, indoctrinate that competitor into the fold, my flock of victims, or how can I crush that competitor and drive it out of my business, why, the answer is clear, all I have to do is copy what that competitor does, it will be lies, half truths, campaign promises to be broke, the opposite will be done, but the lies will continue, the false authority will continue to gain currency by copying the true versions and the copy will stand as a false front to cover up the crimes perpetrated by the criminals upon their powerless victims.

Who loves being powerless?

It is all a patented absurdity and we are alive right in the middle of it, but we are alive, we are here, and we can make the most of it, and that alone defeats our enemies, we make the most of it, and how can we do that if we don't identify the false authorities, and help each other who may not yet even questioned authority accurately?

Authority is a given?

Beware of Greeks and their gifts?

"So I am supposing that it is ok to have authority in the sense of someone in leadership, but be ready to question if their works do not match God’s word."

And this is news? Please remember your experiences as having been there you can sympathize with those who are still stuck in the mire, and they may be able to copy your path out.

Warren in Equitable Commerce rejects, in his own words, any false labels attached to him, yet he has been given (Greeks and their gifts) the label The First American Anarchist, a title he would have rejected outright, he said as much, but this is instructive, since some counterfeit anarchists claim that all authority must be rejected.

That is a big lie, a self contained contradiction. If someone is ordering you to reject all authority, what are you supposed to do at that point?

You and what army are ordering me to reject all authority?

It makes no sense. That is one of those patented absurdities. It is nonsense.

Authority according to people who earn authority know that authority can be earned, they went along that path, like the guy who repaired one of my ankles. The other one of my ankles was not as bad. The worst one was repaired. Now I have one good ankle, and one bad ankle. Should I pay Mitt Romney or what's his name ObamaNation to fix the other ankle?

Did the doctor earn a measure of authority in any case?

Dr. No?

No despotism please?

Does Dr. No say that all we have to do is send him money and he will fix everything?

How about his actions?

I think it may be a good idea to reserve some power in defense of Liberty just in case Ron Paul is not powerful enough to call off the Dogs of False War at the National Level, whereby he, with all his authority, has a very true and accurate measure of what must be done.

1. Call off the Frauds at the FED

2. Call off the Extortionists at the IRS

3. Call off The Troops causing World War III

Dr. NO says we shall do none of those war mongering things and I agree, but as far as sending money to the Ron Paul Campaign, I have none, all I have is debt, and debt is not my money to spend as I see fit, or save, or invest, so the cart appears to be before the horse here with this accounting system denominated in Dollars, so I send words instead.

"Do you consider all authority involuntary?"

What do I do?

I ask you for answers to questions that I have no power of authority other than the power to ask and then the power to listen and learn from your authority on subjects where your progress far exceeds my own.

Joe

Authority = Power

Thank you for the explanation of authority. I agree.

But, once people start having government etc. Some people are given authority: Like police; Some people are elected to authority: Like the country sheriff; Some people are appointed to authority: Like a judge.

Do you considered those positions as earned authority? Someone with authority gave them authority, but was that original authority earned?
_____________________________
What happened to your ankles. Do I remember somewhere you hang glide?
_____________________________
We all give what we have to give. You give by reiterating the truth

1) End the Fed
2) End the IRS
3) Bring the Troops Home.

If you had not been doing that, I would not know the difference between so-called “Liberty” Candidates. I give to Ron Paul what Jeff OK’s, since I no longer earn money to feel like a I can just do a few things without asking. Not that I have to ask, but it is because I respect his labor, and not that I didn’t ask when I was a financial contributor, but I just felt I had a little more leeway and would just run something by him so he would be aware of what I was doing. . You have influenced me and others, I am influencing others. Your currency is more than money can buy. We all do what we can. I want to go to Tampa to see history made, but I don’t think that dream will come true and that is ok. We have limitations as well. Besides, it would probably be more wise with our limitations to help delegates get there since I am not one.

Ran across this in a post http://www.securingliberty.com/ this morning.
____________________________
Power = Authority http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/exousia.html

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying , All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Jesus did not take power, it was given by the Father. He also gave his life power for our sakes:

John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Peter could not do as much after spending 3+ years with Jesus:

John 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

And yet Jesus loved Peter and sought him out

John 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Jesus laid down his life for the sheep. Peter was given authority to feed those sheep. Jesus didn't have to seek out Peter after he denied him in his greated time of earthly need. Jesus leaves the 99 and seeks the 1. He did that for me as well.

Jesus, Friend of Sinners http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66zqQBxhUDA&feature=related A man with a really bad ankle.

Knowing of the need.

Knowing of the need to know better is knowing better than being ignorant of the need to know better, and knowing of the need to know better is far better than belief in a lie that renders the victims of the lie powerless in the effort to know of the need to know better.

How deep is the mire of lies?

"Do you considered those positions as earned authority? Someone with authority gave them authority, but was that original authority earned?"

Here is the possible difference between viewpoints whereby one viewpoint is static and the other viewpoint is dynamic.

Did someone, anyone, suddenly gain license to do anything to anyone without question, and now that individual is more powerful than any victim he or she may target?

Yes, if you think in terms of static thinking, and that is a powerless way of thinking.

No, certainly not, if you think in terms of dynamic thinking, because human life is what it is, and it is a process, and people can overpower other people in many ways, and they don't need a license to hide their crimes if they choose to commit crimes, anyone, at any time, can decide to suddenly, out of the dark, injure a targeted victim, and there is nothing the victim can do about it, so forget about absolute security against all dangers, if that lie is driving this type of thinking.

"Do you considered those positions as earned authority? Someone with authority gave them authority, but was that original authority earned?"

The process of recognizing authority is the same process of recognizing crime, things happen, people realize the truth, and then they do something about it, an effective remedy of some kind, or failing the first try, find a remedy that works the next time.

If you buy an earned authority from someone who earned authority, like that Doctor who fixed my ankle, or a judgment made by a judge to settle a dispute, and the proof of that authority is measurable, where my bad ankle is now my good ankle, and both of the people agree in the decision made by the judge so that the dispute is settled agreeably, then that is evidence to be processed into knowledge that is useable in the next case, I can go back to the same doctor to fix my other ankle, and I can pass on that knowledge, and those people having their dispute settled can go back to that judge, and they can also pass the word as to who has earned the authority to judge in cases of dispute, and that is how that works as a process, but that does not mean that the Doctor I went to won't become a drunk, and a cheat, and a person who has been a doctor and is now a counterfeit doctor who does more harm then good, and that does not mean that the judge won't be paid off by one of the people needing judgement in a case of a dispute, so the PROCESS isn't set in stone, frozen in time, and made by EDICT: to obey without question until the end of time.

No, the process includes a way to opt out, or two ways to opt out, or as many ways to opt out as their are grains of sand on the beach, and as many ways to opt out as there are minutes in they day, and as many ways to opt out as there are people who understand the need to know better as those people can invent ways to opt out of situations whereby falsehood dictates behavior - if they know better than to succumb to such falsehoods, they can opt out in mind first, then they can opt out in action next, as those falsehoods tend to paralyze that process of invention, adaptation, and competition in this animated contest of freedom.

Know better and then act better - a process.

Someone says obey without question, and it isn't God, and it isn't Jesus, so you obey without question?

No, you don't, but look around. We may be surrounded by the enemy, The British are not coming, they are here, and they still think that they own us.

Lock, stock, and barrel?

Falsehood is a very destructive weapon and this isn't news.

"What happened to your ankles. Do I remember somewhere you hang glide?"

My ankles simply wore out, at work I was always the one doing work, while other people may have moved less.

The cartilage at the load point wore out and the tendons are stretched. The fix was to replace the missing cartilage with a cadaver part, and fold over the tendons to make them shorter and pin the folded section.

I was a high paid skilled laborer, now not so much.

I still know how to fix things, a God given talent you might say.

_____________________________________
We all give what we have to give. You give by reiterating the truth

1) End the Fed
2) End the IRS
3) Bring the Troops Home.

If you had not been doing that, I would not know the difference between so-called “Liberty” Candidates.
______________________________________

That is exactly what will process those very evil people out of power. There is no need for violence. We figure out what is wrong, we figure out how to avoid all that wrong, and those evil people who are the source of all that wrong no longer have their false credit (Debt) and then we can solve other problems after the biggest problem is remedied, not before.

If we don't solve the biggest problem first then we will continue to prescribe the technique called bloodletting for remedy when the actual affliction is anemia.

Doctor:
You have anemia my dear Bear, and so does your children and husband, you all have anemia, which is too bad, there is no cure for anemia.

Bear:
It says right here that all we have to do is change our diet.

Doctor:
That is against the law, my dear Bear, sorry to say, it says right here in the Doctor Manual, and the Insurance Manual, and other fine authoritative documents, that the treatment that must be done first is Bloodletting, and if you don't let me work on your children, it says right here, that your children will be sent to protective custody, where treatment can start.

Bear:
Bloodletting, what is that?

Doctor:
We cut on the human body and we drain the bad blood out of the body, so as to save the children, didn't you get the memo?

Bear:
Let me get this straight, the problem is anemia, and you are saying that I have to give you my children so that you and your kind can spill their blood to save them, to rescue them from anemia?

Doctor:
That is the law my dear Bear, it says so in this book, this one, this one, this one, ohhhh, and these 3, and over here on this shelf there are these which confirm that authority, and here too, and I have this letter, and these orders, and this license, and this prescription, everyone says the same thing, yes, you had better obey, without question, so let's get to work.

Bear:
You call yourself a Doctor?

Doctor:
I have a license, no need to rely upon subjective opinion, if that is what you are after.

Bear:
My family is suffering from anemia, I'm after a remedy.

Doctor:
Bloodletting

Bear:
For anemia.

Doctor:
Yes, bloodletting

Bear:
A second opinion appears to be in order.

Doctor:
No, says right here, I have given you the order, you have been served notice, the order shall not be questioned.

Bear:
Bloodletting

Doctor:
To cure anemia, yes, to save the children, or else.

Bear:
Or else what?

Doctor:
There is no or else, really, but the words tend to inspire the prescribed treatment.

Bear:
Bloodletting

Doctor:
Are you deaf, and dumb? Ve have vays of making you talk, and obey, without question, so repeat after me:
"The official treatment for anemia is bloodletting"

Bear:
"The official treatment for anemia is bloodletting"

Doctor:
See, that wasn't so bad, now where are those kids? I've got work to do and I don't want to be late for my vacation at Bohemian Grove.

I have a taxi to run at this moment (daughter going to work, and this is a wonderful life, she is sooooo grown up now)if only we could figure out how to keep the criminals off of the innocent victims, then what?

Securing Liberty Home, a link, looks interesting. I started with a book: The Lusitania. From that book I can see movies like War Horse from a different perspective. That whole thing called World War I, with those war horses, was a crime in progress, it was invented, produced, and maintained by people, actual people, and they wanted that to happen, they gained power through that process called WAR.

Now there are many sources of information all over the place, wherein, in my younger days, the information exposing the Big Lie were few and far between, so what does that measure?

An awakening?

"the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)
the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)"

I have no problem with any person spreading the word of God, at all, when the words are free of contradiction. Truth is authority, God is truth, so on and so forth, no contradictions, so no problem to me.

Counterfeiters, on the other hand, confess false authority when their words, translated falsely from scripture, or just made up by their own devious minds, are what they are, not true, not The Word of God, so beware, know better, know of the need to know better, because bad things exist, bad choices can be made, and what may appear to be remedy, like Bloodletting, may actually be The Problem, not The Final Solution.

Exousia

That is not likely to be the Official Nation State Word of the Week.

"The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice."

We have already reached a demarcation line with the concept of Jesus dying for "the sheep", and so I won't beat that dead horse much, but I can gain much from the quote above, in my opinion.

In my opinion the words quoted above teach of how powerful cowardice can be, as it can take over a person, and render the person incapable of doing the right thing, so beware, and prepare, and know better than to be a coward, it is not good to be a coward, not good at all.

That is how I see that message in those words.

"Jesus friend of sinners."

I hear that and I think:

Jesus is not a friend of sin, so the reference to sinnners is misdirection in my view. Jesus is a friend of human beings who are worth saving, because human beings are good, human beings exist because it is good that human being exist, if they sin, that can be tolerated? I don't know, but the concept of "friend of sinners" sounds too much like "Friends of Legal Crime" and so I am skeptical of that phrase.

If I am skeptical of a phrase that does not equate to me being anti-God, so please don't make that false connection if you may be inspired to do so, there is no connection.

I can be skeptical (doubting) as to the meaning of a phrase written in English (or sung in a song) without automatically being convicted of being Anti-God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KbR0jg48YI

God is power, authority, truth, all that, I get that, I have issues with some of the interpreters and some of the interpretations, and the issues I perceive can be explained in English, in detail, when the goal is to know better.

Joe

Catching Up a Little

“I still know how to fix things, a God given talent you might say.”

Yes, a wonderful talent! I cannot tell you how many times Jeff has fixed dishwashers, washers, dryers, cars, kids toys... It is a wonderful talent and much appreciated at our house.
_____________________________________
Doctor:
“You have anemia my dear Bear, and so does your children and husband, you all have anemia, which is too bad, there is no cure for anemia.”

Yes, I know. I had a conversation with my doc a couple of years back. It was after I had my gene testing and found that I had a mutation that causes my body not to fight certain cancers. He said that was on the cutting edge when he was in school and now he was seeing it in practice. He also mentioned that his training included moving from old school to new school training; i.e. old school: doctors had to know certain things (I can’t remember exactly) and new school, drs rely on computers for cutting edge knowledge. My thought was well that is great as long as the information source is correct or you do not get locked out of it. I didn’t say it out loud, I was just waking up. I probably would say something now, but it has also occurred to me that perhaps his office might be bugged. I remember a weird conversation about a flu shot that I wasn’t going to get and before I left the office he made sort of a pronouncement that he did not believe our family needed flu shots because we would not expose very many people to the flu if we did get it. I remember thinking it strange that he would make that declaration as if he were the decision maker on whether we would get the shots or not. Now I think it is because maybe we were bugged. Call me the conspiracy theorist and you can add the word paranoid in front of conspiracy. Jeff often thinks my linking of events on the crazy side. Oh well. At least I know it.

“Securing Liberty Home, a link, looks interesting. I started with a book: The Lusitania. From that book I can see movies like War Horse from a different perspective. That whole thing called World War I, with those war horses, was a crime in progress, it was invented, produced, and maintained by people, actual people, and they wanted that to happen, they gained power through that process called WAR. “

It is hard for me to get Jeff to buy into that. I believe it. He knows too much about history and I don’t.
"The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice."

“In my opinion the words quoted above teach of how powerful cowardice can be, as it can take over a person, and render the person incapable of doing the right thing, so beware, and prepare, and know better than to be a coward, it is not good to be a coward, not good at all.
That is how I see that message in those words. “

You always have an interesting perspective! You know, Jesus knew the future. How could Peter have changed what he would do? Peter was the one that cut the servants ear off in the garden when they came to take Jesus. Peter was kind of a brash, foot-in-the-mouth personality. Not even Peter believed he would deny Christ. And yet, Jesus knowing what Jesus would do in not sticking by him in his greatest human time of need, loved Peter in spite of his failure or cowardice.

"Jesus friend of sinners."
“I hear that and I think:
Jesus is not a friend of sin, so the reference to sinnners is misdirection in my view. Jesus is a friend of human beings who are worth saving, because human beings are good, human beings exist because it is good that human being exist, if they sin, that can be tolerated? I don't know, but the concept of "friend of sinners" sounds too much like "Friends of Legal Crime" and so I am skeptical of that phrase.”

Joe, do we need to still discuss that statement above, or did my last post where I discussed forgiveness cover this? The post were I told how Jesus ate with tax collectors and sinners would explain this. Jesus is the Friend of Sinners because we are all sinners and he gave his very life because without the shedding of blood we die in our sins. There is said to be a red thread that runs from cover to cover in the Bible. That red thread is innocent blood shed for the guilty who are unable to secure themselves. Tell me if I need to explain this further and I will do my best. I want you to be able to understand even if you do not accept the truth of it.

Empathy

"Joe, do we need to still discuss that statement above, or did my last post where I discussed forgiveness cover this?"

A method of understanding involves the use of empathy and that is what I gained from the concept of God sacrificing, or accepting injury, or having his son tortured, which wasn't a choice?

God was presented with the lesser of two evils?

1.
Let human beings destroy themselves

2.
Destroy the human form of God to teach humans a lesson, to show humans that they can be forgiven?

"Joe, do we need to still discuss that statement above, or did my last post where I discussed forgiveness cover this?"

Whatever you judge to be worth doing, that will ultimately be what you do.

I am gaining pieces of the puzzle.

Have you ever played 3 way chess? 6 players using 3 chess boards play a game where the central players get pieces from their team mates who take pieces from the other team. If I am on the satellite boards I can take a queen from my opponent and hand the piece to my team player at the center chess board, and he can use his turn to place that queen anywhere on the board except a check mate position.

Discussion works like a 3 way chess game as new angles of view are passed onto the central players board.

Stepping into God's shoes to see what may or may not be what God thinks and then to understand motives is an interesting point of view.

God sacrificed.

As you can see that angle of view only goes so far with me.

In my lost words from the 405 error page I answered much more on this angle, but that part of this chess match can occur as it may.

Did you see the next link, and if not please consider applying the next link to much of our current discussion on Political Economy having to do with POWER and man-made scarcity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEfJO0-cTis&feature=player_em...

Joe

Interesting

A method of understanding involves the use of empathy and that is what I gained from the concept of God sacrificing, or accepting injury, or having his son tortured, which wasn't a choice?
God was presented with the lesser of two evils?
1.
Let human beings destroy themselves
2.
Destroy the human form of God to teach humans a lesson, to show humans that they can be forgiven?
________________________________
I like the way you set this out so simply. I would change to read:
God is Righteous and Holy = Sin Must Be Punished
I. God had 2 options.
1) Unjust: Leave Man to himself to be eternally condemned
a. Man will pay for his own sin
b. Man will pay with eternal torment in the lake of fire with Satan
2) Just: Rescue Man from eternal condemnation
a. I [God] will pay for man’s sin
b. Man has the opportunity to spend eternity with God in Heaven
II. Man has 2 options
1) Reject God’s Gift
a. Man will not accept forgiveness
b. Man will pay for his own sins
c. Man will spend eternity tormented in the lake of fire with Satan
2) Accept God’s Gift thru Faith
a. Man can receive forgiveness
b. Man can choose to place faith in Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection for forgiveness of sin
c. Man can spend eternity with God in Heaven

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God
_______________________________
ME: "Joe, do we need to still discuss that statement above, or did my last post where I discussed forgiveness cover this?"

You: “Whatever you judge to be worth doing, that will ultimately be what you do.”

I will always judge that if you are willing I will continue to speak on behalf of Christ and explain the best I can until you say no more or say you understand the concept.

“I am gaining pieces of the puzzle.”

As I am as well.
_______________________
“Have you ever played 3 way chess? “

I am but a grasshopper. I can barely play 2 player chess and think 1 move in advance. I cannot imagine having to coordinate with anyone but myself. That must be an amazing concept! So, you play? Can the center player have more than 1 queen on the board? What happens when the king is captured on one of the side boards? Does that king go to the center board?
_______________________
“Stepping into God's shoes to see what may or may not be what God thinks and then to understand motives is an interesting point of view. “

You always find an interesting point of view as you rotate the subject and view different angles.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Can you imagine the ability to create out of nothing just by speaking! Is that not amazing!

“God sacrificed. “

What is man that thou are mindful of him? http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/hebrews/2.html
_____________________
“Did you see the next link, and if not please consider applying the next link to much of our current discussion on Political Economy having to do with POWER and man-made scarcity:”

I had not seen WHY in the world are they sprayings? I had already seen WHAT in the world are they sprayings? (I believe the solar panel guy addressed Mnt Shasta in the one I had seen.) Our skies have the same haze here. No one seems to notice. It drives me crazy. I know the sky should be blue into the trees. The trees should not be in haze. We are not in the mountains. It also seems like spraying starts again after congress passes a new spending bill or whatever it is they have to pass before the govt closes down. Maybe my imagination, or maybe it just happens to coincide with a storm front. I don’t know.

I watched the WHY video this afternoon. I’ve been to church since, so while I understand the concept of what I heard, I can’t repeat details. I heard about making corn scarce and how that can affect many different futures markets. I heard about hedging on crop failure. I heard about big corps buying up farm land. One thing I did not hear about was whether the geo engineering companies might also be hedging on disasters. I wonder if they might also take part in the money hedging as well or if that would be “insider trading.” I heard how a lot of money is being consolidated into a few hands thru this hedging. I heard about owning the weather as a part of military strength. I heard about Monsanto creating GMO to withstand aluminum and drought.

Part of me sometimes wonders if all the people against Monsanto might be wrong, and maybe someone is trying to hurt the farming and food industry. That is just part of the feeling I get sometimes when I hear Monsanto being raked over the coals. I don’t like GMO and I don’t like the fact that seeds do not reproduce seed. I don’t like the fact that Monsanto is monopolizing agriculture. Another closed loop. Sometimes I wonder if they kill us with all the chemicals we are eating and breathing who is going to buy their seed, produce a crop and who will be left to eat their food. That is a closed loop for them as well. No people, no need to farm. No people, game over, no power to steal. Or perhaps only enough cost is passed on to skim the cream and the cow is left with just enough power to produce more cream. Like the Gulag calorie system.

I thought the video very information. I had not considered the monetary aspects of persistent contrails. It brings the WHAT video into perspective. It is sickening to think of all the implications. I just hope it isn't economic hit men that are doing this geo engineering and will demand money we do not have so they will send in the jackels or we will give up land and liberty in payment.

Joe, how are we supposed to quit paying for our demise? The money is withheld from ones paycheck. So what are we supposed to do about it? It is overwhelming these persistant contrails and that other post from yesterday. I will be answering it. I have not been able to bring myself to reading it again just yet.

...

Misunderstandings

""1) Reject God’s Gift"

Here is where I had a response that was removed via 405 Error.

How is it that you arrive at the concept of someone rejecting God's Gift?

God, as far as I know, has done no such thing as what you believe God has done, and therefore the concept of me accepting or not accepting a Gift from God is in this case hearsay.

For all I know you could be selling a bridge in Brooklyn, one that is only different from the very well known fraudulent bridge for sale, that does not exist, only different from that fraudulent bridge in that this one is for real, if it is for real, you are selling the real deal, sure, but how do I know that fact?

I think you are missing a vital point.

How do I know it is for real if I have not been born again?

Your belief is your belief and that is perfectly acceptable to me, having to do with you, but that does not automatically place me in your State of being, where I have had this event whereby I am offered path A or path B and my choice was to choose the path you did not take, and therefore I must have rejected the offer you were offered.

I see no such offer.

The bridge for sale, according to you, may be the real deal, and that is fine for me, but I'm not even shopping for bridges, and I don't have anything to offer in exchange for the bridge, unless you except counterfeit "belief" and if that is the case then that proves the case.

If you, or God, accepts counterfeit belief, then what does that say about you and your God?

So how can you claim that I am rejecting anything?

I can't counterfeit the belief that there is an offer to be rejected or accepted.

Perhaps I was, long ago, fully aware of this offer, but I rejected it, and since then I covered my decision up in a wall of lies, so high is the wall that the whole error of mine is a distant, forgotten, memory, as the effort was intended originally, to forget, and to forget by building a wall of lies.

I don't think such a thing is true, but that again falls into the whole business of that which I can or cannot see.

I can be dishonest externally, but I think that it is impossible to be dishonest internally.

To suggest that it is possible to be dishonest internally is to move from human reason into human un-reason or pathology.

I may not be using the right words so I'll look that up.

"any deviation from a healthy, normal, or efficient condition"

I was thinking more in terms of a state of abnormal or deviant psychological condition, such as duplicity.

"contradictory doubleness of thought, speech, or action; especially : the belying of one's true intentions by deceptive words or action"

Perhaps there is a split personally involved in a case where a person sets out to suppress a memory willfully and once success in the effort is reached the person truly can't remember the event that was undesired?

If that goal can be reached, that way, willfully, then is there anything that can't be sent into the memory hole never to be known again?

How about a President who signs a order to torture and mass murder millions of people and then go to sleep at night having forgotten the whole dirty business even before dinner?

So the presumption is that I, or some disbeliever, has been given this offer, and the disbeliever of the existence of the offer, is then claimed to be rejecting the offer?

That does not compute in reason.

It is unreasonable to claim that the person disbelieving in the offer is rejecting the offer.

You can measure the disbelieve, sure, but how can you measure this rejection stuff?

You are not God.

You are not Jesus.

Therefore you are just another human being arriving on the scene with a message about some deal made by someone else, not you.

The God I understand is a God that does not make any bad choices, no cases of choosing the lesser of two evils, and certainly not choosing punishment as a viable option.

What word did you use?

"I like the way you set this out so simply. I would change to read:
God is Righteous and Holy = Sin Must Be Punished"

Back full circle, to me, to my questions asked of any person knocking on my door, concerning their belief in The Word, as they read it, and my question goes like this:

1.
Pol Pot tortures and murders the most people ever in the shortest time on Earth in the history of mankind, so far, and just before he dies he is given the offer to believe in The Word, and he does, and so he goes to heaven, or Heaven.

2.
A person who lives 80 years and never inures anyone else for fun and profit (if crime is not a sin then I want nothing to do with that God, and if there is no victim but someone says that there has been a sin, then I have a lot to question concerning that God too), but this person goes through 80 years on this Earth and manages to avoid ever injuring anyone for fun and profit, but the deal is offered, in scripture, or from someone knocking at the door just before this person dies, rejecting the offer as offered, and this person goes to Hell for Eternity.

3.
Sin Must Be Punished, according to this God entity, but in the above cases there are millions of innocent people being punished by Pol Pot, and he goes to Eternal Niceness with God, because he took the deal, and the person having never injured anyone, having never punished anyone is sent to Hell for failing to take the deal.

If all 3 are true, then that does not sound like reason to me, that sounds like contradiction to me, so in which State of Mind, am I to take such a deal, when the deal sounds like deception to me?

While I am in a foxhole, with bombs bursting in air, or just my house with an Aluminum Overcast?

By the way the spraying over my house has stopped so either the atmospheric conditions that had causes all that crisscrossing "vapor" trails no longer exists, or there are no longer any planes flying above, or there is more to this Chemtrails Crime in Progress than most people are willing to "believe", and I've taken my own pictures of how those "vapors" fan out disperse and then turn the sky white as the crisscrossing paths of each "passenger plane" (flying entirely different flight paths in geometric patterns) somehow manages to cover all the places where the blue sky would have shown through.

Summer break?

"Can the center player have more than 1 queen on the board? What happens when the king is captured on one of the side boards? Does that king go to the center board?"

It has been along time since I have played 3 way chess. The center player can end up with 3 queens on the board, and the game does not end until the center board is played out, so a quick loss by a satellite game is not a good idea for any team player because that removes the opportunity to keep the center player fed with options.

My style of play was always to trade pieces quickly, so I tended to feed the center or use up pieces when at the center.

Mike my cousin was on the Chess Team in Christian School, and he went to NJIT (New Jersey Institution of Technology) but dropped out. He is now finding Chess again on-line, where the opponents tend to set the bar very high. He showed us (his many cousins who are my brothers, and his brother, and we are all double cousins, having sisters who married brothers as parents).

"Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

I do not intend to cast disbelief on anyone, and those words express my viewpoint as far as this deal goes. I have no way of conceptualizing this deal, where my God punishes people, it makes no sense, but the sacrifice thing may shed some light, I have to work on it, iron out the contradiction perhaps, but I see no such deal as Jesus dying for my sins and then I suddenly "believe" it.

On the threshold of belief, ready to take a leap, I still see an abyss of blindness compounded with contradiction, so I'm not buying that bridge, it looks too much like the Brooklyn bridge deal.

So you can claim that I am rejecting something, an offer I can't refuse, but that is not reasonable for you to claim such a thing, and in fact, to me, the claim that I am rejecting this offer I can't refuse is a confession concerning your inability to understand someone who does not reach this threshold where it is understood to be a leap for good.

To me it looks like you, Jeff, and any other person, handing out blind folds to people living on a plateau, where everyone knows that there is one road up to this plateau, and there are cliffs along every other side besides the one road, like a cylinder sticking up out of HELL, and one rickety bridge as the way off the flat top of the cylinder, and there is your voice saying jump, and all the blinded people are being pushed further and further along a path chosen by other people, jump, jump, now jump more, get ready for the big leap of faith, and speaking about too much, this is too much.

I understand how the whole punishment routine works here on Earth, as people do things, which you are now saying is to copy what God does?

Punishment?

God's Children?

They don't know, so their parent punishes them?

I'm not buying that stuff. I've been a parent, I managed to be able to avoid almost every possible resort to punishment I can think my way out of, as if punishment were the problem, not the solution, and my children, now adults, are not going around punishing targets at the drop of a hat, so it seems to me that the whole punishment business is the problem, not the solution, so what are you selling?

Punishment is what God does?

God is in the punishment business?

That sounds way too much like God is The Devil and you are the one confused, not me.

This is another one of those things that make me think that the deal being offered is counterfeit, like all those words about eating flesh and drinking blood, and if you were in my shoes, you would see that there is no rejection of an offer going on here, what is going on here is caution concerning this blind faith stuff that is powerful and therefore very likely to be targeted by evil people whose business is punishment, of other people, not self-sacrifice, but punishment as a rule, and they would just love to have a bunch of blinded people jumping off cliffs, drinking cool-aid, or inviting The FEDs to come on by in Cattle Trucks, to enforce a tax law, by torturing the flock for months, and then burning them, and then crushing them with tanks, and then reporting to all the other blind people about how they killed themselves.

I can work on the self-sacrifice angle of view.

I can try to look past the punishment routine.

I've gotten past the eating of flesh and drinking blood thing.

And I like this:

"Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

God has a business, creating life, maintaining it, etc., but that is beyond me, it is another world, not this world, not my business.

I get that much, but there is no deal before me, no place to leap to, I am standing on Earth now, actually sitting with my leg up, but I am not ready to do no leaping blindly in any direction, there is no offer in view, nothing to reject, nothing to accept, there are words, and much of those words are measurably contradictory from my current state of understanding.

"Can you imagine the ability to create out of nothing just by speaking! Is that not amazing!"

That reminds me of another angle of view that caused me to respond, but my response was sent into the memory hole (405 error), so I will now cut and paste this to a safer place and I will take a short break to see if I can remember that point of view.

BREAK

I remember you saying something along the lines of God creating things out of nothingness.

That makes no sense. If there is nothingness then there is no God. If there is God then there is something not nothing.

This is not merely which came first the Chicken or the Egg, argument, this is fundamental logic, or reason, or the capacity to measure what is, because it is what it is, and therefore it is not dependent upon someone measuring it to be what it is, it is what it is.

People say there is no God.

I say, really, and where is your proof?

People say there is nothing after death.

Again, I see an opportunity to challenge that belief by asking where is the proof?

God, to me, does not create things out of nothingness, but that may be a failure for human beings to convey what is with words, such as the word nothingness, which may be difficult for human beings to perceive, let alone measure accurately, since human beings are alive among all the things that do exist.

The question that may arise, for discussion, is to ask from what point of reference does God decide to create anything?

That is my business as proven by the fact that God gave me children, which aren't owned by me, in my view, they are just very much a part of me, not exactly my own arm, but somehow more precious.

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is , the devil;"

My viewpoint is that God is the POWER that drives life "going forth and multiplying", making life better and better, against the POWER of nothingness.

Were God to fail there would be nothing.

Were God to make mistakes there would be less life, not more life, an there would be worse life, not better life, and that is where human beings appear to fit into the puzzle.

I'm guessing. I am not God, and I don't intend to speak authoritatively of God. I won't be putty in the hands of anyone who claims to be speaking for God either.

In the case of the life form created by God that is our species, this Human form, it seems to me, that nothingness countered God's work with a thing called deception.

Deception existed in the form of camouflage in lower (not better) life forms such as a chameleon. Defensive falsehood if English can convey meaning.

Humans, being very complicated, high order life or (better) life, inventive life, creative life, closer to God life, was somehow infected with the POWER to deceive among their own kind, to deceive each other, not just defensive camouflage used to defend against attack by other life forms, but this feature of this species human was, as it turns out, self-destructive, and therefore God had to move a chess piece in place to counter that POWER to return human beings back to nothingness.

Guessing still:

God is looking at the Earth, knowing how it will turn out, and basically it is our job to make it work or not work.

We, as a species, are moving closer and closer to a threshold, it seems to me, but to me it isn't a question of belief or disbelief, it is a question of productive POWER versus destructive POWER.

We win, and the human species continues on Earth.

We lose, and the human species may continue on another plant billions of years from now, as some of the information on Earth may travel to another planet and grow into human form somehow - God moving things around again.

We are the Earth bound human beings.

What is the score to date?

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Destructive deception, Evil, The Devil, the POWER driving things into nothingness is winning by a large margin if an individual accepts the validity of frauds who publish a fraudulent score.

If not, then Henry Ford's warning may be the leap forward, leaping over this threshold, this abyss into nothingness.

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.
Henry Ford"

"Joe, how are we supposed to quit paying for our demise? The money is withheld from ones paycheck. So what are we supposed to do about it? It is overwhelming these persistant contrails and that other post from yesterday. I will be answering it. I have not been able to bring myself to reading it again just yet."

Like it or not it is a numbers game.

Liberty Day Challenge 2013 illustrates a solution.

1 person says, hey, we can do this, in unison, on this day in our future.

2 people see it, know it, and they put that act on their calenders.

Then four.

Then sixteen.

If people actually sign on, publish their intentions, then the ball starts rolling down the snowy hill.

At the bottom of the hill is the date on the calender, but the hill can only stop in the bottom of a valley if enough criminals build a floor to that valley, otherwise the hill goes on past that date on the calender.

July 4th 2013 We The People will have ready a number of competitive Legal Monies we are using and we will continue to use or we will start using instead of the FRAUD money and on that day we will no longer pay the Extortion Fee that the Legal Criminals call Federal Income Tax Liabilities.

By that date there may be many thing done along the lines of keeping government services paid for and distributed, a.k.a. socialism (depending upon which definition is employed), as We The People authorize State governments to collect and redistribute our money in ways We The People want, but no longer will we, on that date, pay our money, which won't be FRAUD Money, to The IRS.

By that date there are many military personnel who may catch on too, and they may begin to listen to their own UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE and they may too act in unison on that date.

How does that work?

It takes more than on person getting up.

Going to the mirror.

And authorizing actionable goals to be done by a specific date.

If you ask the question, do you accept a false or misleading answer, or do you actually want the accurate answer to the question asked?

FYI: Your word now generates 6 results on a Google Search

Joe

Knowing

“For all I know you could be selling a bridge in Brooklyn, one that is only different from the very well known fraudulent bridge for sale, that does not exist, only different from that fraudulent bridge in that this one is for real, if it is for real, you are selling the real deal, sure, but how do I know that fact?”

Joe, Jeff and I are not selling anything. We have nothing to sell. We only have our lives to give. Jeff teaches the Bible and I try. We believe that the Bible is God’s Word written down for man. That is the only reason Jeff teaches and I try. If we wanted to sell something we would sell something that would make us some money. We were doing quite well in Texas selling our time to the government in the form of a Jeff as a school administrator and me as a NASA technical writer contractor. When we married Jeff was an auto parts store assistant manager (i.e., dupe who gets to work 14 hours a day for a title while the Manager/Owner goes home) and I was a church secretary. Before we left Texas all of my paycheck was going straight into savings because our finances had been set up on our first jobs.) All that money in savings…gone…spent here in Missouri to try to stay afloat. We are not selling anything. We are giving our lives and our livelihood to share the good news of the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ who gave His life as the atonement for sin as proclaimed in the Bible. We live in a community that cannot afford our life style, which never has been much as far as that goes, while the government requires us to pay for our demise until July 15 We live in one of the poorest counties in Missouri where people on disability come, or where people who don’t want to be employed reside since there are not many jobs in our country.

God isn’t selling anything either. He bought something. The purchase price? The blood of his Son. What was bought? You.

"I think you are missing a vital point.
How do I know it is for real if I have not been born again?"

That is a good point and vital point. I know it is real and I am telling you from personal experience. It is real. You can know this same thing.

“So how can you claim that I am rejecting anything?”

Jesus said: John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: 43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. 44 Jesus cried and said , He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken , the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say , and what I should speak .50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak .

In verse 48 Jesus says
He that rejecteth ( http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/atheteo.html ) me and receiveth not my words hath one that judgeth him… Jesus also uses the word believe multiple times in that passages. According to the Bible, unbelief is what Jesus says is rejection.

On punishment. That is the word Jesus used: Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into
everlasting (http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/aionios.html )
punishment (http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/kolasis.html ):
but the righteous into life eternal.

Why?
Romans 3:23 says the wages of sin is death. So the payment due for sin is death. Sin earns death. Death is the proclaimed payment for sin. God has declared hear ye, hear ye: the payment for sin is death. Here is what that will look like as foretold by the Apostle John:
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away ; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened : and another book was opened , which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

“I can't counterfeit the belief that there is an offer to be rejected or accepted.”

2 Corinthians 4:4 KJV
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Do you see that: Satan has blinded the minds of those who do not believe so they cannot see. So, what is one to do? One must have faith.

Hebrews 11:6 KJV
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is , and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

• You must have faith, that is the only way. If you want to call it blind, so be it. But the Bible calls faith a “substance.” I have eyes wide open faith that the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross so that I will not have to pay for my own sins. Faith comes by hearing God’s word. That is a closed loop.

But how can one have faith in something that one does not believe?

Romans 10:17 KJV
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 10:14 KJV
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed ? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ? and how shall they hear without a preacher ?

1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe .

Proclaiming God’s Word is the mechanism that God has chosen to use. Joe, in my reality someday you will stand before God. You are aware of Jesus’s words. I have shared them with you. You will give an account for them.

Romans 14:12 KJV
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

I do not say these things to you lightly. I say them in a sense of dread and somewhat of fear. I don’t want you to stand before God unprepared and I also do not want you, my Friend in Liberty, to be mad at me. But the first reason outweighs the second, so I say those words as an eternal reality according to the teaching of the Bible.

When you speak of political economy you speak truth about the here and now and the reality of what we face at the hands of Legal Criminals as we pay for our own demise. When we sin against God, we will either pay for our own demise or not. Do not pay for your eternal demise. Jesus has already paid the price. Jesus holds the keys to death and hell.

Quit agreeing to pay for your eternal demise. It is not necessary.

Get up go look in the mirror and ask yourself.

“Why will I not accept the Gospel of Christ in payment for my sin? Why do I insist on standing on my own merit before Holy God?”

Jesus speaking: Revelation 1:18 KJV
I am he that liveth , and was dead; and, behold , I am alive for evermore , Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

End the fed

End the IRS

Bring the troops home…

Jesus has the keys.

Will you not believe that Jesus has the keys?

He has done everything possible except make your mind up for you:

End death

End Hell

Come home.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled : ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am , there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know , and the way ye know .5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest ; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

“So the presumption is that I, or some disbeliever, has been given this offer, and the disbeliever of the existence of the offer, is then claimed to be rejecting the offer?
That does not compute in reason.
It is unreasonable to claim that the person disbelieving in the offer is rejecting the offer.
You can measure the disbelieve, sure, but how can you measure this rejection stuff?
You are not God.
You are not Jesus.”

That is right, but I have given you the passage where Jesus has said if one does not believe his words that is equal to rejection. Jesus said so.

“Therefore you are just another human being arriving on the scene with a message about some deal made by someone else, not you.”

I am only repeating what has been written down in 66 separate books by 40 different authors over a period of 1500 years which started in about 1400BC and finished in about 96AD. Our English word Bible is derived from the Greek Word Biblios which means books plural; i.e. the Holy BookS, not the Holy Book.

“The God I understand is a God that does not make any bad choices, no cases of choosing the lesser of two evils, and certainly not choosing punishment as a viable option.”

That is right, that is way I made my outline to remove the choice of the lessor of 2 evils. However God is not doing the choosing. Man will choose, and man’s choice is not the lessor of 2 evils.
“Back full circle, to me, to my questions asked of any person knocking on my door, concerning their belief in The Word, as they read it, and my question goes like this:
1. Pol Pot tortures and murders the most people ever in the shortest time on Earth... in the history of mankind, so far, and just before he dies he is given the offer to believe in The Word, and he does, and so he goes to heaven, or Heaven.
2.A person who lives 80 years and never inures anyone else for fun and profit (if crime is not a sin then I want nothing to do with that God, and if there is no victim but someone says that there has been a sin, then I have a lot to question concerning that God too), but this person goes through 80 years on this Earth and manages to avoid ever injuring anyone for fun and profit, but the deal is offered, in scripture, or from someone knocking at the door just before this person dies, rejecting the offer as offered, and this person goes to Hell for Eternity.
3.Sin Must Be Punished, according to this God entity, but in the above cases there are millions of innocent people being punished by Pol Pot, and he goes to Eternal Niceness with God, because he took the deal, and the person having never injured anyone, having never punished anyone is sent to Hell for failing to take the deal.
If all 3 are true, then that does not sound like reason to me, that sounds like contradiction to me, so in which State of Mind, am I to take such a deal, when the deal sounds like deception to me?”

I am going to say again, just like I did about the children at Waco, why suppose God to be evil? God is God and He is just and righteous, gracious and merciful. He is Holy and Good. Why make a juxtaposition about Pol Pot? Why not allow God to do what God knows to do? He is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Here is something hardly any want to talk about. I haven’t brought it up with you. I rarely bring it up. It is hard and many Christians will not accept it - the “P” word as found in verse 5:
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved . 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

I cannot understand this predestination with my human mind:
Romans 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one , even by our father Isaac;11 (For the children being not yet born , neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand , not of works, but of him that calleth ;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.13 As it is written , Jacob have I loved , but Esau have I hated . 14 What shall we say then *? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid . 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy , and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion . 16 So then it is not of him that willeth , nor of him that runneth , but of God that sheweth mercy . 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up , that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth . 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault ? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God ? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known , endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called , not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

It is not that I cannot understand what that says. It is that I cannot fathom God saying or doing such a thing. I can only accept that God is God and God will do what is just, righteous, holy, merciful gracious, and good.

• John 6:64 KJV
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

“By the way the spraying over my house has stopped so either the atmospheric conditions that had causes all that crisscrossing "vapor" trails no longer exists, or there are no longer any planes flying above, or there is more to this Chemtrails Crime in Progress than most people are willing to "believe", and I've taken my own pictures of how those "vapors" fan out disperse and then turn the sky white as the crisscrossing paths of each "passenger plane" (flying entirely different flight paths in geometric patterns) somehow manages to cover all the places where the blue sky would have shown through.”

I haven’t taken any pictures. But I have pictures in my mind. I also remember the first strange cloud trail. It was on that was beginning to dissipate and looked like a long ocean wave in the sky. It was so strange that Jeff and I talked about it. That was before I knew anything about persistent contrails. I have seen colored light refraction in the clouds as well. We can have clear blue sky and then it starts. I hate it. Why in all the times I have brought it up in the past have you not spoken about it freely? Is it one of those conspiracy subjects? How can people not see it? BTW, I am seeing reports here on the DP that the 7 day weather forecast for Tampa shows a hurricane…Maybe those planes have been busy elsewhere? It is strange here In MO. 50-60’s at night and 90-100’s during the day in August. It should be hot 24 hours around the clock right now. Instead we are having 40 and 50 degree temperature spreads and no rain. The grass is brown and dying. It is almost like it would be in the desert?.

“To me it looks like you, Jeff, and any other person, handing out blind folds to people living on a plateau, where everyone knows that there is one road up to this plateau, and there are cliffs along every other side besides the one road, like a cylinder sticking up out of HELL, and one rickety bridge as the way off the flat top of the cylinder, and there is your voice saying jump, and all the blinded people are being pushed further and further along a path chosen by other people, jump, jump, now jump more, get ready for the big leap of faith, and speaking about too much, this is too much.”

Here are some diagrams about that leap of faith: http://preceptaustin.org/the_romans_road_to_salvation.htm

Or how about a comic: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0076/0076_01.asp scroll down and you can read it on line.

“I understand how the whole punishment routine works here on Earth, as people do things, which you are now saying is to copy what God does? “

Joe you understand consequences. When one of my sons continues to do what I have asked him not to do and rebels against my words, I encourage him to do what is right with words of suggestion, “Are you showing love?” If that does not work, I warn him. I say, please do not make me discipline you. Tell your hand to stay off your brother (or whatever the problem might be.) If you can’t tell your hand, mommy will have to tell it. It becomes his choice, not mine. He may comply with my request or he may accept his consequence of not complying. He is the one that has control over his hand, not me. But I can take control if necessary. That rarely happens. They want to do what is right. They want to do what I have requested, but there were times when they were younger that I did have to show them the consequence of disobedience, and there are still rare times. I think Jeff grew up without physical consequences. He probably understands your way better. I grew up not knowing if I was going to be slapped across the face for something I said, or hearing my father whip my brother repeatedly because he was still wetting the bed in 4th grade. I know about little boys wetting the bed. It was not my brother’s fault. It was because no one was home to tell him not to drink anything after 6 or 7. I have a little boy that needs that help every once in a while. Especially if he is overly tired and cannot wake himself up. If he has an accident, it is not his fault it is mine because I am not paying close enough attention to his physical needs. I saw my father kick my brother in the rear and kick him in the rear all the way up the stairs. I was lucky. I mostly got the verbal abuse. My goal is not to punish, damage, or shame, my children it is to teach and correct. I do not discipline in anger or out of anger, and I do not verbally abuse them. If anything they have a pretty long apron string. We are probably too unstructured, but I am not the playing type. I am more of the take care of type. Jeff plays and I clean. It is a good balance.

Here is what the God says about disciplining his own children:

Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth , and scourge the very son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence : shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live ? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure ; but he for our profit , that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby

“I remember you saying something along the lines of God creating things out of nothingness.
That makes no sense. If there is nothingness then there is no God. If there is God then there is something not nothing.”

Well yes. If there is God, there is something. I should have used the words physical matter. God created without having physical matter to work with. God made physical matter. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

“My viewpoint is that God is the POWER that drives life "going forth and multiplying", making life better and better, against the POWER of nothingness.
Were God to fail there would be nothing. “

Yes, and I am glad that God cannot fail. If God could fail, then He would not be God.

“Deception existed in the form of camouflage in lower (not better) life forms such as a chameleon. Defensive falsehood if English can convey meaning.”

Man is a little lower than the angles. Actually Satan, a fallen angel and also a created being, is higher than man.

Psalms 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

“God is looking at the Earth, knowing how it will turn out, and basically it is our job to make it work or not work.”

Actually things are going to work just as God has planned.

“We win, and the human species continues on Earth.”

Heaven and earth are going to pass away. God is going to create a new heaven and earth.

"Joe, how are we supposed to quit paying for our demise?”
“Like it or not it is a numbers game.
Liberty Day Challenge 2013 illustrates a solution.”

Thank you for reminding me what I signed on in spirit to. I won’t even say the word TE and then it occurred to me, really, how could I ever E. It is taken from me before I even have a chance to E.

You said these words in another comment when I was asking about the Brandon Raub situation:
“The accurate medium of exchange may have already been invented.
The accurate medium of exchange may have already been produced.
All that remains may simply be employment of that accurate medium of exchange by all The Friends of Liberty in unison.
It may take time yet.”

Thank you for replying to my question. It did help me. Do you think that it has been invented and produced yet? Or are you just saying maybe, maybe not?

“By that date there may be many thing done along the lines of keeping government services paid for and distributed, a.k.a. socialism (depending upon which definition is employed), as We The People authorize State governments to collect and redistribute our money in ways We The People want, but no longer will we, on that date, pay our money, which won't be FRAUD Money, to The IRS.”

I do not understand what you mean by the above statement.

“If you ask the question, do you accept a false or misleading answer, or do you actually want the accurate answer to the question asked?”

I want an accurate answer of course, and those are the king that I try to give as well. That is why I ask until I understand. I want to know, and want to know why I know. I expect it might be the same with you? It good to ask until things are understood. Here is a man that asked:
Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias [Isaiah], and said , Understandest thou what thou readest ? 31 And he said , How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer , so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away : and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said , I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said , See , here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized ?

I did not copy and paste the part where the Lord sent Phillip to speak to that man. The full story is in Acts 8 starting at vs. 26 http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/acts/8.html . But you might also find it interesting that some men try to buy Holy Spirit power with money from Peter and Peter tells says let your money perish with you. That part starts in vs. 18. Acts it the account of the beginning of the church. You might find some Equitablists in Acts 4 http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/acts/passage.aspx?q=acts+...

“FYI: Your word now generates 6 results on a Google Search”

How exciting! I would have never come up with the plan you did. I didn’t even take any note that I had invented a word. Now Joseph Thomas Kelley, I gave that word that I invented to you 6 days ago. http://www.dailypaul.com/comment/2670989 . Equitable is now your word :) It was a gift from me to you. Did you believe me when I said I gave it to you? Will you accept it or reject it? This gift that is yours, will you call it yours?

• John 8:24 KJV
I [Jesus] said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

• John 14:1 KJV
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me [Jesus].

Romans 1:16 KJV
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

• Jesus said in regards to Moses: John 5:47 KJV
But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/john/passage.aspx?q=john+...

And I, bear, say to you, Josf, if you will not believe His writings, how will you believe Him?

• Hebrews 10:39 KJV
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Gods spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am his. Romans 8:16 KJV
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God

• 2 Timothy 1:12 KJV
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed : for I know whom I have believed , and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

I know Him and He knows me and keeps me

When I look in the mirror, I see someone who’s Master is the Lord Jesus Christ, though I am not perfect at following him, actually far from it, and yet he keeps me.

Miscommuniation is not unbelief

"According to the Bible, unbelief is what Jesus says is rejection."

If miscommunication were unbelief would there be an honest need for two words instead of one?

I do not say that you are selling anything. I inform you of a viewpoint that exists, one that does not disbelieve, or un-believe, but one that is as yet incapable of belief, no different than someone aware of previous cases of sales people selling false titles to bridges in Brooklyn and False Gods selling tickets to paradise, everlasting life, goats, well meaning balls of righteousness that turn out to be a bit more complicated and hard to measure precisely, a process of consuming hydrogen in the production of light rays or particles or whatever light is exactly, and not depending upon what is is exactly.

What is the total volume in cubic feet of a gram of light, and how many grams of hydrogen is needed to generate that much light, if you were to imagine being this Sun God, cooking the books, doling out the precious power of life to the favored forms?

You don't do that, I know, but if you (or I) were driven by devilish motives then we wouldn't be announcing the fact, would we?

I don't need further evidence convincing me of your trustworthiness, but you are not God, and you are not Jesus, so your messages are, at best, one person removed from the source.

I'm getting information that may not be as accurate as is humanly possible, and that minimum one person filter is this thing that I use which is as brain, with eyes that don't work right, ears that don't work right, and a nose for smelling rats.

"God isn’t selling anything either. He bought something. The purchase price? The blood of his Son. What was bought? You."

I didn't say God was selling anything, is that more miscommunication or unbelief in what I actually have said?

You may be selling false hoop jumping required for admission into false eternal life, and merely doing a better job of hiding the truth, and my capacity to trust you isn't me claiming to not believe God.

Why is miscommunication the rule and not the exception?

Are things up-side-down?

Why are things up-side-down if things are up-side-down?

Language did it?

"That is a good point and vital point. I know it is real and I am telling you from personal experience. It is real. You can know this same thing."

OK, so you happened upon happy events that you can call being born again and it makes sense that you see a sense of duty in helping other people happen upon happy events that you call being born again.

I get that, and I get that the happening involves reading those words written in that book.

Again, there is at least one filter, a human filter, involved in between the original source of the message and the intended recipient of the message and that human form is my brain, my eyes, my ears, and my nose.

The message travels to you intact.

Good for you, you are now saved. Happy days.

How does that turn into me rejecting that message?

Do you see a possible problem concerning what has happened to you and you knowing what is happening to me?

"Why?"

I don't ask why. You ask why. I don't need to know any more about why doing good is good. I think I have that covered as well as any other human being, in thought, and in deed, competitively so, and the measure of who is winning the good race, again, is dependent on at least one filter which is my brain, which doesn't work right (3 major concussions), my eyes which don't work right (one eye that was crossed, now is "lazy"), one ear that does not work right (Meniere's disease), and a fairly long history of smelling rats and avoiding them.

If I can be born again maybe that message will arrive to me in smell so as not to have the message miss-communicated?

Why is punishment, by God, this or that?

Who is asking?

Not me.

That is God territory.

Here on earth, in my opinion, punishment is a synonym for crime, and the criminals are the ones who gain power (perpetrate crime) when they can convince the victims to "believe" in organized punishment, as if God's hand were at work.

Does that sound at all familiar?

God's work isn't any of my business, as far as I know, I have not been born again. That may not be something you can know, having forgotten, perhaps, what was real before being born again to the former you of yesterdays?

The past you was not born again. You are now born again. What do you think the past you would be telling you if you were claiming the the past you was rejecting something?

Past you:
"Where did you come from lady?"

Present you:
"You"

I can't write that script, no more than I can write the script with me speaking as the future me, assuming that the future me could be born again.

Punishment happens to show up, on my end, as reinforcement in skepticism concerning contradictions in the messages passing through my human failings and not being understandable at the destination point, whatever that may be, this soul stuff, again, not my business.

I am me, that is true, everywhere I go, I'm still there, but that was not choice, I am me by some other power, but it is what it is and it doesn't depend upon what is is.

I see my business as being doing the right thing as far as I am able to know, better, and better tomorrow, if possible, compared to right now.

The right thing to me is to use the power available to make more of it.

English is a challenge, a powerful challenge, in the use of it, to convey simple meaning, such as the concept of power being either productive or destructive.

No power, for example, is destructive.

Turn off the Sun, see what happens.

I don't have to see, and I know, and that does not mean that I worship the Sun as if it were a God.

English is challenging?

That is a question.

"Do you see that: Satan has blinded the minds of those who do not believe so they cannot see. So, what is one to do? One must have faith."

You say Orange while I seem to be saying Apple.

Is there an obvious problem?

How about accurate identification of exactly what happens during those moments when past turns into present and past "not born again" becomes future born again person A, but definitely not person B?

If you had the power to do so, go back in time, and make yourself born again sooner than you were born again the first time, would you do it?

I would no sooner spend a moment trying to do that, to make you born again sooner than you did the first time, compared to how inspired I am to make me born again now.

It isn't any of my business.

That is God's business, not mine.

"Do you see that: Satan has blinded the minds of those who do not believe so they cannot see. So, what is one to do? One must have faith."

So I'm rotten, and rotting, in eternal damnation, and looking back at a distant memory, eons ago, back when Human Beings once walked and stood on the Earth, and I stood for LIFE!, or so I thought, and I'm thinking, Joe, you should have been born again, but you were too occupied in figuring out what problems existed and how to solve them during your wasted life on Earth.

Too bad for me, and another eon of regret, man does this ever get old?

I need help beating myself up, now?

I've got eternity to beat myself up, and where can I go, for eternity, if I really want all the help I could ever ask for in beating myself up?

I am asking?

I don't need help in that department.

I read.

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is , and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

Now, this is a strange angle of view I am thinking about now, perhaps I can convey a novel idea here, what if someone, not me, but what if someone were to help other people well enough to change things around from where things are going now, and instead of Doom Day Rising, we human beings are inspired, by someone, or many people, each other, to avoid all that Doom Day Parade stuff, and then all these Christians are left somewhat deflated, not getting their prophecies fulfilled according to the instruction book. Now that is very bad news?

Is that very bad news?

Jesus shows up expecting hell on earth and what happened while he was gone?

He goes back to God with something less than a predictable report?

God says, damn?

What did I miss?

Was it bishop 5 to the queen's rook 3?

Oh well, better luck next time?

Joe, you are so funny, that is ridiculous?

The script says right here, earth burns, people on fire, Jesus shows up, good guys who believe go to heaven, bad guys are damned into eternal hell, it's all there, Joe, can't you read?

Yea, I can read, and so I figure it may be a good idea to be born again.

Hold on. I'll try again.

Nope.

It didn't happen.

You disbelieve, Joe, un-believer you, you are making a mockery out of the whole thing?

Where is my cross, and my holy water, this guy is a disbeliever?

How does it feel to have someone else claim to know you better than you know yourself?

No, you may not get it yet, there are, in fact, in your own words these whatever you call them, the word does not matter, they are what they are, and you are what you are, and that is the way it is.

Unbelievers!

There are these unbelievers running around and they need help.

Get used to it.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, there are these people who appear to have the power of deception all figured out, well enough, if humans can measure such a thing.

How about an example?

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Ta da!

Non-believer?

I don't need a Bible to get the concept of The Deceiver, the power of deception, and destruction on Earth. I can actually look up into a formerly blue sky (again not today, God willing, there is no spraying today) and see "vapor trails" or "chemtrails" crossing in patterns where blue turns to a silvery white, and like a modern day disbeliever I'm not reading from the script that says everything is fine, everything is OK, go back to sleep, all you have to do is believe, just believe, just believe, now isn't that nice?

I question authority, that is what I do, and that does not have anything to do with you, so much as it has to do with me, my connecting mediums, these eyes, these ears, this brain connecting me, that which is me, not you, me, and everything else, not just The Sun, but God too.

Work on someone who may not question authority so much and maybe you can help God, do good things, and get them to be born again, while you provide for your self, while you provide for your children, while you provide for your family, and while you, and I, provide the means by which we suffer.

Hello?

What is the concept of Good?

Provide the means by which we suffer, and some other things of lesser importance, why do you ask, you aren't one of those are you?

I do the same thing. I prey on those who are weaker, less well fortified in vehement believe in patented absurdities.

Take you for example.

Are you ready to question authority?

I win!

Ha, ha, ha, ha, someone is on my side!

Whooooohooooooooo!

Really?

Miscommunication is not unbelief, the person is responsible, in an individual sense, here on earth, and beyond that is what it is, not what it is not.

I don't know God's business. You do. That may be how it is for eternity.

Meanwhile?

Provide the means by which we suffer?

That is not good enough for me.

That is something even I can un-believe.

"If you want to call it blind, so be it."

More miscommunication? If you have this faith and it to you is "substance" then to you that is not Blind Faith.

If I say that someone who believes in organized punishment is this or that and I say that they have a blind belief in doing the right thing when in fact they are merely criminals who make their crimes legal then that is a measurable perspective having nothing to do with faith, or theory, or opinion. They have a blind belief in measurable falsehood.

If I say that it would be Blind of me to have this Faith that is not a "substance" to me, then I can say right now, if I have not said it before, or if I have said something otherwise in error, that I don't know that your Faith is Blind or not Blind, it is what it is, and it isn't known to me.

That is the point. Faith as you call it is not mine. I could counterfeit such a thing, supposing that I tried real hard to counterfeit such a thing, but that is not the point is it?

If that is the point, for me, or anyone, to pretend to be faithful, so defined, this substance stuff, then I've seen that point before, in other forms, counterfeiting law, counterfeiting money, counterfeiting authority, counterfeiting goodness, and even counterfeit evil.

You can't be asking someone to counterfeit belief in Christ, so if a person can't find this substance then there can be a reason why, but not knowing the true reason why is not knowing the true reason why someone can't find this substance that is this faith.

Presuming to know why, without actually knowing why is a familiar tune, I think the word is counterfeit.

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

OK, I thought about that, on my right ear this is a constant noise, I've read that the brain is asking for sound and there is no sound, so the brain makes up a sound in place of the missing sound, this noise, this "ringing", this tinnitus stuff, The Sound of Silence.

So I should listen with my left ear, or is God finding difficulty reaching me through the bad ear, or is that really my Good ear, but I'm so bad that my Good ear is trying to get out of town?

"You will give an account for them."

Ok, not news, I'm there, God says you did this, this, this, how do you plead?

I say, I've been told you are going to do whatever pleases you anyway so what is the pleading business?

God says, yea, I know what you are going to say, but you do say it, so let's get this moving, not that I'm running out of time, but, well, well, you know, and I know you know I know, get on with it.

Well, I did what I though was right, and I did listen for special delivery messages, as you know, so that's it, and lets get this thing going, I'm running out of time.

Damn right!

Off I go!

"Quit agreeing to pay for your eternal demise. It is not necessary."

More confusion?

Where do I agree to pay for my eternal demise? Is it something I wrote?

I'm not going to blame my inner child, tell me, what did I do that which constitutes this paying for my eternal demise stuff?

I get it. Eternal damnation = not good

I'm not stupid.

You do this you get this, so if you want that then do this, if you don't want that don't do this, simple no?

What did I do according to you and then I can get to God and say, hey, I stopped doing that, you saw, I did, I stopped doing that, so...

What constitutes me paving my way to eternal damnation?

No more beating around the bush, set me straight, what do I have to do to stop paving my way to eternal damnation, according to you, or according to your interpretation of scripture, or whatever, lay it out in black an white so even I can understand.

“Why will I not accept the Gospel of Christ in payment for my sin? Why do I insist on standing on my own merit before Holy God?”

That again?

I'm not buying that line. We went through this already. That whole story line sound exactly like many other variations of a something for nothing routine. You can damn me to hell right now, I don't care, who needs to wait for God, that is baloney to me.

I can work on the angle of view that God (who is supposed to know better) had to sacrifice this or that so as to save mankind from self destruction, but that business of me being saved from blame for my sins is hogwash to me.

It is worse than nonsense to me because it is exactly the same routine used by the Legal Criminals. Look ma, no hands! Jesus did it.

BREAK

“Why will I not accept the Gospel of Christ in payment for my sin?"

Because it sounds like a something for nothing plan, something deceptive, something irresponsible, and something unaccountable to the actual responsible person. I rings, it drips, of falsehood to ME.

"Why do I insist on standing on my own merit before Holy God?”

I may get to this merciful God, or vengeful punishing God, but that is not here and that is not now, here and now I stand on Earth, well I'm sitting right now, with my legs up, but I stand, figuratively, for LIFE! On my own sorry butt. I un-believe the unbelievable, how is that not understandable?

You don't do what I do, that is understandable to me, why should I un-believe that you are in the same boat I am in, you aren't, obviously, so there is nothing to un-believe about it, it is unbelievably that you are in the same boat as I am in, no different than the past you, the not yet born again you, not being in the same boat as the born again you.

You gained this substance of faith.

I have not.

How does that manifest itself?

If it looks like a sales job of a bridge in Brooklyn to me, then that is not substance of faith.

1. Looks like deception to me.
2. Substance of faith

One is 1, 2 is 2, 1 is not 2.

You can't be asking me to blindly leap from 1 to 2 by waving a magic wand that does not exist, I pick up a straw from out of my Big Drink and wave it around, and Ta Da, I'm saved.

Born again!

How easy can it get?

Was it easy for you?

Don't tell me, tell past you, hey past me, I've got a deal for you, and it's easy as pie.

“Why will I not accept the Gospel of Christ in payment for my sin?"

OK, unbeliever, try it.

OK, here we go:

I accept the Gospel of Christ in payment for my sins.

I accept the Gospel of Christ in payment for my sins.

I accept the Gospel of Christ in payment for my sins.

I accept the Gospel of Christ in payment for my sins.

I accept the Gospel of Christ in payment for my sins.

I accept the Gospel of Christ in payment for my sins.

Should I type it out, actually say it, think it, or is cutting and pasting good enough?

You think I am not sincere, perhaps? You don't know me. You don't know me from Adam.

One disbeliever is the same as another. One of God's Creation, well, you've seen one, you've seen them all.

They are all lazy, no?

Refusing to accept the Gospel of Christ in payment for our sins, and all.

Shake your head and off you go?

No.

Persist?

How can you persist if you don't listen.

I can't believe that story line, it is revolting to me. You may be speaking to an angel of the devil, but I'm not privy to that information either so I can't just come out and confess the fact.

Christ, as far as I am concerned, can go back to God and ask for a do over, it didn't work, the targets of this sacrifice are undeserving, and worse, they reject the concept of irresponsibility and unaccountability.

I'll pay for my own sins, thank you, thank you, but no thanks.

I've done the pain thing, it is horrible, terrifying, but not the end of the world, not the end of the human species, more like a driving whip that says, hey, you did something that you may not want to do again.

So I get pain for eternity, for my so called sins?

I have not tortured anyone. I have not murdered anyone. There are people who have tortured millions, and murdered millions, and their work here in Earth is threatening the end of life on Earth, but they get to go to heaven for accepting the irresponsible and unaccountable deal, God willing, but no one but God actually decides, but I can offer my version of God's message?

There are missing elements on my end, sure, these elements are not missing on your end, sure, but I'm not confusing the two, but somebody appears to be confusing the two.

Who does not know that I am missing the vital elements essential for being born again and accepting the deal?

Note: I didn't raise my hand and confess. Do you think I lie about it?

"Will you not believe that Jesus has the keys?"

Sure, why not?

I believe that Jesus has the keys. I can say that once with conviction. Can I proceed as if he may arrive late?

"That is right, but I have given you the passage where Jesus has said if one does not believe his words that is equal to rejection. Jesus said so."

Whatever empowers your substance of faith did not power your substance of faith before it did power your substance of faith, now it does.

It may never reach me, but that does not mean I am running from it, and that does not mean that I am not seeking it.

If you use English to transfer that power to me, and I hear irresponsibility and unaccountability then my response will be to reject what sounds exactly like irresponsibility and unaccountability.

"I am going to say again, just like I did about the children at Waco, why suppose God to be evil?"

Miscommunication responsible to you and accountable to you is not disbelief on my part, and I never said that God was evil. I report to you, accurately, that a deal that is written in English, as I wrote it, is nonsense as I wrote it.

Pol Pot goes to Heaven
My Nana goes to Hell
All those millions of innocent people are punished by Pol Pot and Pol Pot sits with God while Nana burns in hell

You take that and you now claim that I say that God is evil?

If I say my toe hurts do you then say that I want some ice cream?

On my second serious concussion, a long story, I'll shorten up. My family was watching me to see if I needed to go to the hospital again, since these things take time, and I remember trying to say, in English, that my words that want to be spoken are not the words that actually are spoken by me.

Can you imagine my frustration? Actually I thought it was funny.

I tried to explain the situation accurately, forming the sentence in my mind, and then I'd speak, intending to explain how my words are not what I intend to say, and the words that came out where "The garbage can is full."

That happened to me.

That was all internal to me.

This is happening now. I am not responsible for the miscommunication.

I did not, I do not, and I will not say that God is evil.

If YOUR God accepts Pol Pot into Heaven because he accepts Jesus Christ as the responsible and accountable one for Pol Pot's sins, then YOUR God sounds like EVIL to me.

I could be the evil one here, so be it.

If YOUR God punishes my Nana, has her in Hell now, for doing no one any harm ever, but she failed to take the deal, then YOUR God sounds like EVIL to me.

And, to top that off, I have bad ears, so sounds are not the best way for me to get messages that are free from error.

How is that me saying the God is evil?

It isn't.

The God I know is equal to all of life, all that is, and if there is error in measuring all that God stuff then the error is accountable to the stuff, not to God.

If God has me going to hell, then that is where I go, it isn't my business.

"Why make a juxtaposition about Pol Pot?"

In the effort to remove miscommunication I invent different ways in which to convey my current viewpoint as I see it currently.

The question is simple, not complicated, and you can't answer it, and scripture may offer a clue or two, or 3000 clues, but the answer is not yours or mine.

Pol Pot tortures and murders millions (financed by people in Wall Street) and then God says OK, you go to Heaven.

My Nana, I new her, never hurt anyone, as far as I know, but she is judged too, and God says OK, away you go, off to Hell.

And that is because Pol Pot accepts Jesus as being the responsible and accountable one for Pol Pot's sins, and that is because Nana does no such thing?

That is a question for you.

I have my answer, and it isn't a question of belief for me.

I've heard versions of this story before, and it sounds like a lie to me.

I may be confused.

I am not saying God is Evil.

Why would I say The garbage can is full and then you claim that I said that God is Evil?

I said no such thing.

"Why not allow God to do what God knows to do?"

I'm looking left again, behind me, all around, looking right, again, who are you speaking to when you ask that question?

You now presume that I think I have any power over God?

Where did you get such a notion?

"It is not that I cannot understand what that says. It is that I cannot fathom God saying or doing such a thing. I can only accept that God is God and God will do what is just, righteous, holy, merciful gracious, and good."

I can agree with that because I believe the same things as that, but I could be agreeing out of ignorance, since miscommunication appears to be the rule, not the exception.

"Why in all the times I have brought it up in the past have you not spoken about it freely?"

I have a one track mind? There are other fish to fry? That is a symptom not the cause of the ailment?

1.
End the FED
2.
End the IRS
3
Bring the Troops Home

Question authority?

How many things have I not brought up? I can count to 10 quickly.

1.
The voice tape I have of The Sinful Messiah, his last words so to speak, before being executed - if that was actually his fate.

2.
Hydrogen made from water efficiently so as to power a car with water.

3.
The Public Confessions of many people who claim to know that Aliens exist.

4.
Relative human time between life on Earth compared to human time not limited to only life on Earth

5.
My brother's experiences with the Deep Space Network, and government in general.

6.
Near death experiences

7.
The limits of pain on behavior

8.
Adaptive government as opposed to monopoly government in much greater detail

9.
The concept of Evolution as God's creation (ectropy versus entropy expanded)

10.
Abortion (murder) You may have no idea as to what a busy mind can produce in 20 years of constant work, it seems to me, or perhaps, again, you teach me a thing or two.

"Maybe those planes have been busy elsewhere?"

Unlimited POWER in the hands of Legal Criminals is a message in English, the actual account is limited. Only so much time to do so much evil. Money is not a limit. Any thing, or anyone, that can be bought, can be bought, and that may be hard to understand.

How much aluminum and barium is readily available for spraying the crops?

"Man is a little lower than the angles. Actually Satan, a fallen angel and also a created being, is higher than man."

Again we find differences in perspective. I see no such thing. Satan, or The Deceiver, to me, is a very low, base, form of non-life, a power of destruction. Unfathomable, just like God, but if the scale used to measure high or low, good or bad, then destruction is as bad as it gets, it is the power that reduces things back into nothingness, and if allowed, it seems to me, it will reduce God to nothingness, and that does not make The Devil higher than man or higher than God, it makes The Devil lower, not higher.

Angles are another matter entirely. There are other subjects that may be much more on topic.

"Thank you for replying to my question. It did help me. Do you think that it has been invented and produced yet? Or are you just saying maybe, maybe not?"

On that subject of Competitive Legal Currency there are may possible forms that could be made legal, but that is the deciding factor, not my opinion. The deciding factor is the connection between money power or purchasing power and law power or tax payments.

The competitive forms that will be used by The Friends of Liberty to stay connected to each other and at the same time disconnect from the Legal Monopoly (FED, IRS, TROOPS following unlawful orders) will have the power to purchase and it will satisfy the demand for taxes.

Pap Pal, E-Gold, Labor Dollars, Food Money, anything could work as actual economic Purchasing Power, and does work, but the return to Liberty has to include the link to tax demands which can be entirely voluntary such as can happen with a Democratic Federated Republic, or it can be an involuntary demand such as does happen in Despotic Monopoly Nation States, to each their own, and Friends of Liberty can flock to Despotism while those who opt out flock to greener pastures - letting the chips fall as they may when that happens.

The point is that right now there is a specific flow of power flowing from almost everyone to the same few people and that flow of power is facilitated by that combination of FED/IRS/Military, through that one money, and if that group does what it had done in the past, those DEBT collectors, then they will get the World War III that they are buying now, with our blood, sweat, and tears, and then they will move their operations to China after American loses.

If we win, on the other hand, we start using our own money that competes with that monopoly stuff.

It must be powerful to purchase and it must satisfy the lingering demands for taxes, that will move toward paying for expenses required for defensive of Liberty, instead of buying the destruction of Liberty.

Why that is not easy to see may be similar to why it is not easy to see a human form of God being tortured and murdered to forgive sinners for sins against God - I suppose.

Some things make sense, other things appear to be nonsense.

"I do not understand what you mean by the above statement."

I meant that Liberty will include a demand for people to collect their individual powers into a fund that is then used to hire specialists who specialize in deterring organized crime gangs from doing what organized crime gangs do when there is no deterrence and when the word "socialism" is read by you, apparently, you see RED, and blinders go up, and confusion sets in, and you are rendered powerless in the necessary work required to understand English?

Is The Military a form of socialism?

If you say no, then please consider explaining what you consider to be The Military and what you consider to be socialism and then I can know not to use one or the other name when I try to communicate how people will gather up their individual defensive power and then pool that power into a fund that is then used to purchase the required purchases that employ specialized people who specialize in presenting organized criminals with a powerful deterrence so that organized criminals don't commit organized crime on those people who are armed defensively in that way, whereby the people doing things that way give up some of their power for the good of all the people who give up some of their power that way, defined that way, and not defined in some counterfeit way that only appears to be that way on the surface.

That is English, and that does not ask for any leap of faith, at all, that is either what it is, or it is not what it is, and if it is what it is then organized criminals, with or without badges, won't attack them, because that is what they do defensively.

They organized portions of their power so as to invent, produce, and maintain a sufficient POWER of defense.

One person alone can't do it alone, and it does not require involuntary taxes, but that may depend more on what is is, than the actual individual choices to give up some individual power "for the greater good".

OHHHH NOOOO you said the S word!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Where is my rope?

Where is that bus?

"This gift that is yours, will you call it yours?"

I did not invent the word. This is silly.

"Josf, if you will not believe His writings, how will you believe Him?"

It matters not to me who says something so much as what is being said, and if someone says to me that they are going to be punished for my sins I will respond the say way each time.

That is impossible.

If someone punishes you then they punish you. If I am punished then someone punishes me. They can say that I am being punished for my sins too. What is the point.

If you want to harm me, and I am powerless to stop you, then I will be harmed. End of story.

I don't buy into the punishment routine, at all.

It is nonsense.

"When I look in the mirror, I see someone who’s Master is the Lord Jesus Christ, though I am not perfect at following him, actually far from it, and yet he keeps me."

That is fine by me.

What about that steady flow of power that provided the means by which we suffer?

Joe

OK.

There is nothing else I can say. I only tried to present the message in a way I thought might shed some light on the matter. My only other thought is, maybe you could tell all that to God. All that stuff you wrote back to me, and ask Him for faith.

OK too

If you think it is important to refine your message to reach more people than feel free to use me as if you were trying to speak to your past self or any other concept of what another person may be thinking.

I can respond back, unlike your past self, and unlike a lot of people who will slam the door shut as soon as they hear the word Jesus.

My wife asked again as to why I've been typing all day. I said that the subject matter is interesting to me, not just the political and economic stuff, but this person has a religious background. I reported how I just rephrased the same question I ask of all the religious people who once knocked on our door, they no longer knock on our door, and I asked if she would care to hear the conversation.

She asked about how much time it would take, and I said never mind. She went back to doing things she deems important.

With me this is not new, I'm not someone who may have never thought about God or Jesus or Religion and is therefore like a sponge ready to absorb these messages. I am also not someone who may have been indoctrinated into an anti-religious, dogmatic, false doctrine of vehement disbelief.

I've been working on Political Economy for at least 30 years, but the concept of Religion has been a power struggle in my soul, as I use my brain to "take sides", for at least 40 years. This is not new to me in principle, and the details either fit, or do not fit, into my present state in the power struggle.

So...I don't reject, and I don't accept easily because the battle has been raging for 40 years, the trenches go deep, the lines are drawn out, and to suggest that it is all my imagination sounds interesting but hardly valid.

I don't reject concepts because someone else hands me a script that says I must reject a concept.

I don't accept a concept because someone else hands me a script that says I must accept a concept.

The concept of someone else absolving me of sin, on the other hand, is deep down into the trenches, already, and I've taken sides on that one, so fire away, the war may end soon.

This is funny, too, because I went to my Guitar teacher with the new (new to me) Beatles Song My Guitar Gently Weeps and I told him that my guitar doesn't do the weeping thing, so my version reflects all the battles between the Angels going on my head, and he said something along the lines of that sounding familiar to his constitution, and he was having a bad morning up until that point.

Go figure.

Joe

More Words

Joe, I am not interested in refining my message. For some reason I have a burden for you. But I will not push or prod, that is not my job. My job is to share as the occasion arises and as long as you are willing to hear. There was an open door this week and I went thru it and did my very best to provide you with passages of God’s Word that I hoped somehow, someway might speak to you.

Jeff asked me if something was wrong this morning. I was very sad after reading your reply. Not in tears, just sad. I even had to remind myself to smile today as I took the Amish to town. It was not that I hoped you would all the sudden believe.

I had only hoped that there would have been some shred of light for you. As if somehow, someway, there would be something that I could share at some time that would provide that one thing missing so that you could see. But truly the thing is - I am only a gardener:

1 Corinthians 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

After all, if I was anything more I might get the big head!

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

I have no doubt that there is a war over your soul and perhaps in it as well. Maybe that is why we both happen to have “time” at this point in our lives where our paths have crossed. My God loves you, Joe. He has been at work in your life for 40 years calling you unto Himself. He has given you 9 lives to allow you time. He has sent gardeners. He gave you his Son. It is not something for nothing:

Luke 9:23 And he [Jesus] said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? 26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man [Jesus] be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

Here is an iniquitous man in hell: http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/luke/passage.aspx?q=luke+...

I said I didn’t have any more words this morning. Ha Ha, I amuse myself, I guess I found some. Might you entertain the reading of that passage in Luke?

I am working on the other “Darkness” post, but have not yet finished. It may be tomorrow before I can complete it.

Discredit

I don't discredit things that I credit, and I don't credit things that I don't credit.

"passages of God’s Word that I hoped somehow, someway might speak to you."

I saw some of Jeff's messages and you really won out with that guy, it seems to me, or he won out with you, which tends to be the case, in my opinion when people "find each other", and my opinion is based on how well Jeff manages to paint the picture of how Politics/Economics/Spirituality work as one thing.

I tend to be focuses on Politics and Economics so that is what I know, and it is very interesting to hear from someone who has put together a larger, more meaningful, viewpoint.

"But truly the thing is - I am only a gardener:"

Here is a thought, and a warning, use what may work for you, and discard that which is no good for you:

Your children may make very serious mistakes and you do not have the power to be their gardener, so toughen up. Realize the limits of your power, because you can set the bar too high and set yourself up for very destructive consequences thereby. That may or may not ring true, I don't know, it is offered, and when things do work out, how much surprise can turn into pure joy?

"After all, if I was anything more I might get the big head!"

Be accurate. What can I say, any variation from being accurate is what: a measure of self deception?

"He gave you his Son. It is not something for nothing:"

And I do not reject that which I do not believe. The words spoken by Jeff make more sense to me, he speaks more in my language, a very good person who is able to employ language effectively and not read from a script.

I see that person, Jeff, busy, busy, busy, and I can't help but think, based upon information you publish, that his best work is playing with the kids, and all this other stuff is cost, and he assumes the costs, a very good example of the lessons that are spoken of in English.

Sacrifice for good, according to God, and English fails to convey the most accurate meaning.

So there are examples? Living examples?

"that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue"

I think Jeff made a reference to that when I had the time to view one of those lectures/sermons/speeches on economics, what was the term?

Transparent fire?

"I am working on the other “Darkness” post, but have not yet finished. It may be tomorrow before I can complete it."

Even if we are the only ones involved in this specific conversation that fact would not change the power struggle being fought in other places, parallel paths, or even converging paths aimed to a point that is much better than "providing the means by which we suffer", are not mere coincidence, not random thoughts and actions that just happen to be shared by many people. There is a power involved whereby life is created and preserved, and to argue otherwise is measurably false.

Joe

Gardeners

YOU: I don't discredit things that I credit, and I don't credit things that I don't credit.

ME: "passages of God’s Word that I hoped somehow, someway might speak to you."

I cannot undersand those words about credit and discredit. Are you speaking of God's Word? Do you either credit or discredit it? Or are you speaking of something else?
_______________________
Jeff is a gardener too. You see, we can but plant seeds (the Word of God) add perhaps water (give explanation). But truely only God can provide the growth. It is in his hands. I am glad that Jeff's messages speak to you in a language you can understand. He is a very good waterer. I may be more of a planter. You know, the first time you gave me a link to the US debt clock...I gave you a link to Jeff's sermon with the debt clock rolling in the back ground. I didn't tell you it was Jeff. I didn't feel like divulging that much at that point. Your guitar teacher may be a gardener, your Aunt may have been a gardener, maybe even that Sunday School teacher. Looks to me like God is so interested in you that the false prophets even knocked on your door to try to bind you into an untrue message. You may take offence at that last statement. It is not meant to disparage those that knocked on your door, but they are not preaching the Gospel of Christ. They preach a different gospel.
__________________
I definitely got the better end of the deal when it comes to Jeff. I know God gave him to me because I have a heart that is prone to wander and leave the God I love. This world holds many attractions for me. Jeff is an anchor. Some times it is all I can do to be tame. There is a wild child within. I don’t know if you can understand that, but that is the way I feel, and Jeff is God's gift to me. He is my physical rock as Christ is my spiritual.
____________________
I will take your words to heart about not putting to much hope in my efforts with the boys. I know from first hand experience that it takes only one foolish decision that can have years of consequences. My hope for them is that they do not have to suffer consequences that last a lifetime. Once again, I am only a gardener. I cannot produce the fruit of their lives. But I expect that I will always be like that father waiting on that prodigal son should that ever occur.
_____________________
It never ceases to amaze me as to the wonderful father Jeff is. Not perfect by any means. I could say a lot about that regarding my opinion of some things, but he always has time for the boys. It was amazing for me to see how much he loved being a father after being married almost 20 years. He never voiced his disappointment to me that we didn’t have children. I can only imagine how he felt after seeing his joy.
__________________
It is for those boys that my heart longs for Liberty in this land of ours. The boys and I watched "movies" and ate cookies last night in mom and dad’s bed. They were of the sermons I linked to you. I wanted to see what was so impressive. I read the comment at the end of the Diaper Math link. There was a lot of hatred. I went and looked at 4 of 4 and it was worse. A death threat. And among those ugly words were "Ron Paul 2012." I wonder what that was all about? It also makes me wonder if people are being agitated against Christians or if that was just an isolated case. Anyways, I also noticed that the 4 of 4 Diaper Math should have been the 3 of 4. Jeff’s message began about a minute into the #4 and ended on the #3.

Liberty for those children so that they can enjoy a life better than ours here in this vast Creation of God’s. Perhaps they will be equitablists? Warren did not have room for a church in his community. That troubles me. I pray my sons will serve God in a greater way than I ever have or can imagine. You see, I have given them to God for his purposes. Not in any ceremony, just in private prayer.

May we find those Equitablist! May Ron Paul have Godspeed in Tampa next week. May we taste Liberty in this land of ours from sea to shining sea! May we be prepared to give what it takes to secure that peacefule liberty in peace which may cost our lives and our fortunes.

...

Bearing the unbearable?

"I cannot undersand those words about credit and discredit. Are you speaking of God's Word? Do you either credit or discredit it? Or are you speaking of something else?"

When you repeat God's word in that Jesus did this or that, and as far as you are concerned that message you published is close enough to God's word for me to understand, then that is you, but I see words in text on my computer screen.

If I discredit the meaning I get, through those mediums of exchange, which are not limited to electricity flowing through wires, then I discredit the meaning that reaches me, that is not the same thing as me discrediting the word of God.

How about an illustration?

God says be honest with yourself.

I think that is a fair statement. The God I know tells me that commandment all the time. I don't need any help.

God has another thing to tell me, but he, or HE, goes through a serious of mediums of exchanges for this message.

Note: I think it is nonsense to call God "He" too, but that is another story.

God creates Jesus, and HE creates people who torture Jesus, people who murder Jesus, people who see Jesus being tortured and murdered, people who write that down, HE creates paper, books, a person named bear, the internet, electricity, computers, my desk, and me (with my feeble brain relative to Jesus's brain), I'm kept alive by God long enough to read the text messages arriving at my desk from bear, and now I am tasked with belief or disbelief concerning the meaning behind the torturing and murdering of Jesus.

Had I fallen off the turnip truck yesterday, I might have accepted the text from bear as the truth from God.

I don't, and I didn't.

Does that mean I reject the messages I get from God?

No.

I discredit what I discredit, I don't credit things I do not credit, and I don't credit what I discredit.

Jesus died for wiping the slate clean on the sinners, bla, bla, bla, bla, and I've told you I've heard this at age 10 or so, and if God is going to get through my thick skull, it seems to me, I'd have gotten it at age 10, I didn't, and I don't get that message now. Not then, and not now. Not all that time in between. God works in mysterious ways. I get that. God tortured and murdered someone to teach other people a lesson, no, no, I think it is nonsense. So there are a few possibilities.

1.
I am lying to myself.
2.
I am honest with myself but I am lying to you.
3.
I belief that Jesus did this or that and I say otherwise.
4.
I do not belief that Jesus did this or that and the reason for my not believing it is that The Devil and I have this deal and we are conspiring to destroy all life and everything that can create life for eternity.
5.
There is yet a few things not realized by me so the actual truth is not yet understood to a point where I can accept the deal of which you speak.

For you to assume that I've been to a point where it was obvious to me that there are only 2 things left before me, two paths, and one goes to Heaven, and one goes to The Lake of Fire (worse than hell), because you have traveled that path, then that is what you do, but that isn't necessarily what I have done, am doing, or even can do, in my life as it is according to God.

What I am, and what you think I am, are not likely to be the same thing, unless you are God.

Does that make more sense?

How about this angle:

You say that I reject God's word (according to you), and I say no, that is not accurate, I reject the message that reaches my soul, through my weak and powerless brain, and if the message reaching me sounds like nonsense, then that is my fate, for now.

I don't know futures, if I did, would my account measured in dollars be negative?

"Looks to me like God is so interested in you that the false prophets even knocked on your door to try to bind you into an untrue message. You may take offence at that last statement."

No offense taken, there was none meant as far as I can tell, so why would there be any offense TAKEN?

Three quick stories involving Mormons and another group which was not as familiar and that is not the only time I've welcomed these gardeners reaching out to me.

Mormon case I.

I ask my standard question:
How do you know that The Devil didn't write the Bible?

Answer:
God says so.

Q:
How?

A:
It is written in the Bible.

In that case we had been sitting down at my kitchen table, years ago, when worked a full time job. The conversation continued but my efforts to communicate how the answer offered to me was not an answer it was a confession.

Religious representatives B:

My standard questions were well answered, there were 3 people, we talked outside, not inside, and this was a return visit, this time the two women brought reinforcements. At some point we began discussing Israel and the supposed deal of TAKING land from natives who live there, and I try to explain how the information I have suggests that those natives who have lived in Israel for thousands of years are now being tortured and mass murdered just as the Nazi's did to the Jews and Gypsies, and other people, in the Warsaw Ghetto in Poland.

That, apparently, is God's work at work, because HE gave the Jews that property, so the natives, who are actually squatters, had better get the message and get off of Jewish property, or they get what they deserve, or some such nonsense.

I was growing angry, much like I do when I think I am encountering Devils in human form, and then one of the women goes off on a tirade concerning homosexuals, as if, and this is my imagination working, perhaps, as if she were given God power, well, there would be no more homosexuals, not under her Jack Boot.

I think that was the only time I had asked to be excused from those messages.

Experience 3 concerned the Mormons returning with reinforcements and this experience was entirely different than the "The Devil didn't write the Bible because it says so in The Bible" non-answer, as the reinforcement was on top of every question I had for at least an hour, as I even went inside to get chairs from the kitchen, there was no move to go inside, and it was a nice day. Going inside is fine with me, we merely didn't go inside, whatever the reason, I don't remember.

I was told that The Mormons include living prophets sent by God to keep them going in the right direction, my words, not theirs, and I was further told that we must be ever vigilant in accurately judging real messages from God from false messages from false Gods, this was stressed as answers to my questions, which made me very comfortable in speaking my mind to these young men.

Onto the question of Iraq we went, and I asked them if the orders came from "Washington", in the form of a Military Draft, is it your leaderships advice to follow those orders, and then you being armed with your power of self determination will you go over to Iraq and be involved in those things?

The orders would be followed in that order according to that individual Mormon. I explained how that sounded to me as if The Devil, not God, has been giving orders to the Mormons, not verbatim, I have no recording of the event, but the lines of perspectives were drawn into clearer view.

Those are three cases of efforts to communicate the concept of Religion.

I did not report, again, the standard questions I ask concerning a trip to sit with God for Pol Pot, or the people who financed his reign of absolute terror, and my Nana who may now be off on the one way trip into the Lake of Fire, which is perhaps story number 4.

I am the one rejecting God's word. I get that, sure, but what are my options?

1.
Counterfeit an acceptance
2.
Seek more information
3.
Find things that I can do well
4.
Believe and take the deal

So, again, how does number 4 arrive, exactly?

Number 4 has to get past my brain and to my soul, and that is just one of the many places where the message can be corrupted into something that looks like nonsense to my soul, so far as I have anything to say about my soul.

"It is not meant to disparage those that knocked on your door, but they are not preaching the Gospel of Christ. They preach a different gospel."

How different? I won't ask these specific things of you through this medium of exchange since this is a public access forum.

Here is where political economy is discussed and if people know better then they tend to find Ron Paul, but such things can't get very far from Spiritual awareness since that, at least to me, is the power of knowing right from wrong, in so many words.

Jeff, you, and to a lesser degree myself, appear to get, at least that much, straight.

"I definitely got the better end of the deal when it comes to Jeff."

I can ask, please, if Jeff considers you his better half? No big deal, but I am curious.

I have my guesses.

"It also makes me wonder if people are being agitated against Christians or if that was just an isolated case."

I do not intend to convey a specific answer, that would be nonsense, but the principle answer may be worth understanding. Any power gained through deceit, threats of violence, and violence, will be interested in either incorporating competition into a mutually beneficial agreement (honor among thieves, if such a thing exists), enslaving those competitors against their will, or crushing those competitors whereby the measure of competition is a measure of power.

How powerful is love and truth?

Who does the measuring?

What is the relative measure of love and truth?

What is the scale of that measure from greatest love and greatest truth on one absolute end and greatest hate and greatest falsehood on the absolute other end of that scale?

Why is it difficult to understand the motives of people who are possessed with the infection of hate and lies?

Too much hate and lies infecting the individual, causing difficulty in understanding?

Suffice to say that actions speak louder than words.

1.
Resort to deception as a means of incorporating the weaker people into being fellow criminals made legal.
2.
Resort to threats of violence as a means of subjecting the weaker people into being fellow criminals made legal.
3.
Resort to violence upon the weaker people as a means of destroying Friends of Liberty.

My limited capacity to know better has not fit the Spiritual POWERS into the concept of life as well as Jeff, as far as I've seen so far, but I may know a thing or two about the political economy angles of view, accurate measures that Jeff has skipped over, in triage, or though faith, I don't know. I did not spend a whole lot of time watching those sermons/lectures/messages and in the ones I did see I saw none of the tell tale signs of contradictions.

Ron Paul is able to speak similarly, avoiding all the tell tale signs of contradiction, which inspires me to dig deeper, but there is only so much time, and we all have our individual laundry lists.

Jeff has a full plate and to me his power is best consumed in passing on a good example to those who inherit this life stuff.

"Perhaps they will be equitablists?"

Have they injured any innocent person willfully, repeatedly, despite cries of mercy reaching them from their targeted victims?

Please.

"Warren did not have room for a church in his community."

Ignorance troubles you? What does this church thing consist of, exactly, this thing that Warren did not have room for in "his" community?

It may be, I'm just saying, a "for you information" and "if the shoe fits" type of message, that you convict people of things, and pass sentence upon them, without having all the facts before you clearly in view.

Someone may be reading this and they may hear your words and take your words as fact.

"Warren did not have room for a church in his community."

Really?

Can I ask how is it that you have arrived at that conviction?

If possible, in this case, I'd like to defend that person just in case that person is innocent of this execution of sentence whereby his good name may be gaining discredit.

Why bother, the man is dead, after all?

"May we be prepared to give what it takes to secure that peacefule liberty in peace which may cost our lives and our fortunes."

There is hope, and there are warnings, and there are examples of what happens to those who are very unfortunate yet extremely good. I think you missed such an example reported by Alexander I. Solzhenitsyn in The Gulag Archipelago, but that may have been more than you can bear at this time.

Joe

Troubling

These are the things that trouble me. I had never read anyone before who advocated getting rid of preachers. Maybe I am misunderstanding.

http://tmh.floonet.net/pdf/jwarren.pdf
When we contemplate the immense piles of materials and mechanism in church paraphernalia—the armies of preachers and theological imposters, their type-setters, printers, their emissaries in every nook and corner of the world, all unproductive, and only professing to counteract the vices of the present system, we see in these reasons enough for its total “demolition.

Then if all business, all interests were withdrawn out of national, state, church, and all other combinations, and made the care and business of individuals, the demand for public agents or officers would be done away, and no excuse for governments or laws would remain.

That this sovereignty of the individual is impracticable in national, State, Church, or reform combinations; and that combination is, therefore, exactly the wrong condition for the security, peace, and, liberty of mankind. That the true movement for the attainment of these ends, is for each individual to commence immediately to disconnect his person and all his interests from combinations of every description, and to assume the entire control of them as fast as they can be sufficiently separated from others, so that he can control his own, WITHOUT CONTROLLING THEM.

A word of sympathy to the distressed may be of great value to them; and to make this value the ground and limit of a price, would be but to follow out the principle that a “thing should bring its value!” Mercenary as we are, even now, this is no where done except by the priesthood.