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11 votes

This is a legitimate question from me about Mitt Romney...

I just had an argument with my father about who I should vote for.

Here is some background to put this question into context.

I collect an income tax return when tax day comes around. I only pay into social security and medicare in Texas based on my taxes.

My father states that because he pays tens of thousands in taxes due to his tax bracket, he is going to vote for Romney.

My father says that every presidential election comes down to those that pay into the system through taxes and those that take out through taxes; the Democrats being the latter and the Republicans in the former in his scenario.

He says that since I don't pay into the tax system as he does(which is tens of thousands of dollars), he lives in the real world and I do not. Him being in his stated "real world", he knows the only choice for him and for others living in the "real world" is to vote for Romney, the lesser of two evils. He is aware of the lesser of two evils bit.

He even goes as far as saying that voting for Romney is voting for positive change because he will at the very least be able to save some money in taxes.

I brought up how Bush's term raised the national debt by $5 trillion. He responds by saying that Obama is raising it by $1 trillion per year.

His main sticking point is that during his years of running a business, he has had to pay less taxes under Republican presidents than democratic presidents.

If there is an argument I can convincingly counter this argument with, I would love to hear it.

Thanks for any responses.

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Turn your Dad on his head

What about the people that pay 100's of millions in taxes that vote for Obama. Tell your dad, that according to his definition of what the real world is, his world is not as real as there world is....

Show him that his argument is retarded...

Ron Paul, as POTUS, would

Ron Paul, as POTUS, would immediately work towards ending the Income Tax & the IRS.

If your Dad is correct that elections come down to those who pay tax into the system and those who do not, Ron Paul's plan to end the IRS & Income Tax would then actually bring both sides together - because there would no longer be such a thing as those who pay income tax and those who do not. Nobody would be paying taxes on the fruits of their labor. We would all be equal in that aspect.


I was unaware that

democrats dont pay taxes and just get to take out. Thats news to me.

My Response Would Be...

...something about the similarities between Rombama. Both are pro-Fed (Romney said "I don't want to focus on the Fed" plus Romney voted for the bailouts). Both are pro-war (Romney using tons of anti-Iran rhetoric plus let's not forget that Romney's cabinet consists of a lot of Dubya's former cabinet members). Both believe in huge budget deficits (Romney's "budget" ran a deficit). Romney essentially crafted Rombama-care plus watch Ben Swann's video about the similarities between the rhetoric of Rombama regarding Rombama-care. Also, Romney is owned by Goldman Sachs, same as Obama.

In other words, these 2 are essentially the same candidate.

Here's how to convince him:

Download and print/burn everything here and show it to him:

While you are at it, stamp some envelopes and let's win this thing.

"What if the American people learn the truth" - Ron Paul

The key word is "for"

How can you vote for someone you don't like? I'm not going to list every reason why Romney is a bad choice. But get him to understand your reasons prevent you from voting for Romney. And if you can't vote for him, you'll be voting for someone who you like more.

Join the social network that pays you

Actually, most people will

Actually, most people will pay less taxes under a Democratic administration. Reagan raised taxes twelve times during his administrations. Obama actually cut taxes for the middle class, and historically that tends to be much better for the economy, as cash in the hands of the wealthy tends to stagnate and the only money available is "real loanable funds" for borrowing. It is a shining example of the paradox of thrift.

Only the upper 1% of us pay higher taxes, but because of lower deficits and a boosted economy, paying 39.6% of my earned income as opposed to 35% resulted in a better economy with better ROIs and much higher net cashflow.

Think of it this way: would you rather an economy where you make a million dollars and keep all of it, or a billion dollars and fork half over to the government?

fireant's picture

Your dad is illustrating a real difference between the two.

His business pays much less taxes when the pubs are in power. You cannot argue with that.

Undo what Wilson did

BTW, who did your dad vote

BTW, who did your dad vote for in the primaries?

He tells me he voted for..

Ron Paul. I convinced him to become a delegate. Me, my brother, my mother and father were all delegates at our senatorial district and our state convention in TX.

Love thy enemy.

Unless your Dad votes for President Paul,

His small business will be hit with either obamacare or Romneycare. I can promise you that neither our dictator in cheif or the tax haven multi-tasker will kill socialized "health care"

President Paul will follow the constitution and that $hit will be OUT!

Not to defend Romney or

Not to defend Romney or anything, but Romneycare is Constitutional. Obamacare obviously is not, despite what the SCOTUS has ruled. Romneycare is Constitutional at the federal level due to Amendments 9 & 10. And as far as I am aware, Romneycare is Constitutional at the State level in Massachusetts as well.

From that aspect I can understand how Romney might not support Obamacare while supporting his own Romneycare in Massachusetts. The States have the constitutional authority to decide upon this issue but the Federal Government does not.


Claro que si!

He knows about Romneycare being the precursor for Obamacare. He is solely looking at the tax levels between the two candidates.

Love thy enemy.

It's about conformity

If your father, or anyone who proclaims to like or understand Ron Paul's message or platform, concludes to vote for any other (R) or (D) than Ron Paul, then they have been either hoodwinked or manipulated and found conformity somewhere inside their conscious mind. This is the bottom line.

The political direction in this country is currently going one way ---> more more & more. The only real viable candidate today able to alter this direction is Ron Paul. It truly is a Ron Paul vs the establishment era.

Obama and Romney are both hand puppet spokesmen. They are not dumb. You do not rise to power and not know the political direction this country is to take or rise to power quickly by not knowing how to please the money powers. Both of them have bent knee to such 'realities' and will look to maintain as much business as usual as possible.

Depending on the issue that is important to you, your father or anyone else will be the gauge on how hard that person feels the hit by the establishments "right" handed glove or "left" handed glove. Irregardless, they are going to get hit with more more & more if we as a society do not change the political direction.

If you can help it, don't conform. Ron Paul is the only one with a real change in direction to lessen the blows from the establishments gloves.

Self-preservation in action

I can't blame your father if that is his reason for supporting Romney over Obama. Money means things like security and food on the table, especially to someone who has had to support his family. He feels more threatened by Obama than he does by Romney. I cannot and will not blame him.

To help him understand your stance, you can bring up how in your experience, you are screwed no matter if Romney or Obama get the ballot. Once the US invades Iran, World War 3 will likely start, and you will likely be drafted and sent into the front lines will you may die a horrible death. Financially, you are being prevented from being able to earn and keep as much money as your father, thanks to being screwed by both corrupt parties. You have your whole future ahead of you, and neither Obama or Romney will rule in such a way that your life will be better. Your situation is different from your father's, thanks your father having had a head start getting a living before monetary policies got too bad. For you, it is pointless to try and choose between two men who would gladly draft you to serve in their wars, and prevent you from becoming financially independent.

Right now, the best thing to tell your father besides how neither Romney nor Obama would make your life better is to emphasize your support of Ron Paul and the liberty movement's cause, because the liberty movement will help with your father's taxes, as well as with inflation and your father's ability to earn and keep money. The liberty movement will serve every honest person, allowing your father to keep more of what he had rightly earned, and protect you from being killed in Iran (or whatever suits your position best), and if both you and he support the liberty movement, more politicians will have to adopt it, including Romney. You can emphasize that Ron Paul still has a chance to become the nominee, though that likelihood is small, and that your support of him is right and good.

That's the best I can recommend. Tell him how you are personally screwed by the policies, or likely will be screwed, and emphasize that by supporting the liberty movement *right* *now* (November's too far away to focus on right now) you are doing what is in both his and your own best interests.

"Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." -- Thomas Paine

Why have the following replies become

hidden if the only negative response has only one negative hit?

Love thy enemy.

We first have to make a

We first have to make a distinction between government taking our money and investing it in things that make the country stronger and more prosperous and government taking our money and pissing it away on handouts that don't serve any positive end.

My argument is that either we see Democrats doing far too much of the latter, while the Republican solution is to do nothing at all as opposed to the opposite and more logical solution.

How about we make this distinction:

that there is a Federal/National government that, for the most part, disregards what "the people want" because they are too far removed from their problems and, also, bribery enabled by lobbyists, and that there is a State/,or even better, local government that is accountable to much fewer a population which becomes more responsive because there are less votes to be able to change a corrupt proposition.

Your choice is to give up our rights to a more ignorant and corrupt system while the local choice is to convince less people to become involved per choice. This makes each choice less corruptible.

Love thy enemy.

Thanks for all of the chuckles

It is especially humorous to see someone with the handle of 'Evil Warlord' making such statist statements.

I'm glad you don't blame him. He's a great man.

I've brought up your first sentence. The second sentence is one I haven't brought up. I'll tell him that, being 25, I'm eligible to be drafted into an unnecessary war. I'm not going into war. That's my final position. If any other position is taken on me....well...hmm...someone is not going to like there position.

Love thy enemy.

The day after 9/11, enlistees

The day after 9/11, enlistees were lined up down the block from the recruiting office. If the country is actually under threat, there will be no shortage of soldiers, "the powers that be" know this, and there are no plans for a draft.

It reminds me of a time in the officers' mess when a 90 day wonder made a remark about how kids should be forced to serve two years in the military when they turn 18. Our wise and wonderful colonel looked at him and said, "Son, if you believe that fascist bullshit you don't belong in my corps."

I wish you the best

I'm sure that he doesn't feel attacked by you, and understands that you have thought things through, and you can see the part of politics that applies to you, that he'd listen. Personally, the greatest danger I fear is that our government will become worse than Nazi Germany, but that may be too extreme of a case to bring up. Getting drafted is another, more realistic matter.

"Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." -- Thomas Paine

fireant's picture

I don't think it's too extreme to bring up...

There is no question we are in a similar situation as pre-nazi germany, and more and more people can see when you point it out. They find many reasons to not look. It is compelling when a person of honor must face the fact we are leaving a legacy of chains for our progeny.

Undo what Wilson did

Who do you think you should vote for?

(Ron Paul isn't an option)

If Ron Paul is not an option..

and I came to a conclusion based on what has been written on this thread, I'd either vote for Obama, Romney, or Johnson in no particular order.

Love thy enemy.

by the by

I'm leaning toward Johnson, in this case.

Love thy enemy.

What about

A 0% tax rate?

When Fascism goes to sleep, it checks under the bed for Ron Paul!

In "the real world", your payroll taxes for SS and Medicare

are taxes that go to the same government. One can disagree about the Constitutionality of those programs, but that's how the Supreme Court has ruled when authorizing those taxes. In comparing the relative tax burden of you and your Dad, you must include payroll taxes (sales taxes, etc.). I wouldn't be surprised that if you calculated the total taxes paid by you and your Dad, that you would be paying a higher overall effective tax rate, especially IIRC TX has no individual or corporate income tax.

Welcome to the real world, Pops.

If it were my father...

I would say "If you are not going to vote your conscience and you intend to vote for evil even if it were the lesser of two evils, then just don't vote."

Maybe that would get him to wake up and help us wrangle this monstrous beast to submission.

For Liberty

He intends to vote for Romney.


Love thy enemy.