38 votes

Now, finally it all makes sense...

"That Ron Paul will not be president is of little concern to me. I fought as hard as anyone on the campaign to make this happen, but from the very beginning I’ve never considered it the be-all-end-all goal of this campaign and this movement." --Jack Hunter.

When you're not trying to win, you sabotage yourself, pick fights with supporters, and turn a noble cause into a business.


I will conclude with this question for Jack and his ilk: "When will we be allowed to be free?"

Five years, 10, 50, 100? How much more must we endure, and try to survive, until we get the permission we are waiting for to be free? If we are not trying to change our fate for the better, shouldn't our limited resources be better allocated at survival in the long run. If politics, money and effort give us the false promise of tomorrow. What are we to do for today? Just Hope for Change? Support those who work the system who may or may not be allowed to put forth legislation that would help others instead? We have to continue to play ball with the political class, the financial class, the religious elite, the media thought manipulators, and the ideologically albatrossed, with the faint hope that maybe their preselected representative of the elite, will permit us a fraction of the liberty and freedom that is our birthright?

If this is the plan for the future, count me out. Tell it to the people who are starving and homeless, and unemployed. Tell it to the working poor who have to pay rent and bills working 10 hours a week. Tell it to the college graduates who are debt slaves to the muti-national bankers. Tell it to the elderly who will surely die due to rationed health care, and in poverty to pay the insurance companies, just like the young who will never be middle class for the same reason. Tell it to the troops overseas who are brutalized physically, and traumatized emotionally and cognitively so much that they cannot function in society and are left slaves to psychotropic drugs and funding the big pharma medical industrial complex. Tell it to the families who are suffocating under the inflation that is endemic in our monetary system that is scientifically flawed to create debt slaves and transfer wealth from the poor and shrinking middle class to the very rich and elite of society. Tell it to the people who are taxed and have funds given to research to make technologies and products that they will never be able to afford in order to benefit from, while the elite get them practically for free... This system is irrevocably broken and must come to an end.

You can submit to authority, ideology, orthodoxy, oligarchy, hierarchy, and the orders of the day. Or you can take your power back by refusing to comply. Period.

Not with health care. Not with multinational banks. Not with media that call on patriotism, racism, jingoism, not with self serving educational systems that reinforce these false ideologies... Just do not comply. Take your power back, and stop asking for permission to be free. Anyone who asks for permission or somebody else to do something for them, is already a slave... It's time to move on. We can not live in the past, only change ensures the possibility of survival. This current system is wholly inadequate and must therefore end. The first step is blanket Non Compliance... But you have to have the self determination like the founders, to do whatever it takes to live free. And not wait for permission from others to do so... No more waiting. No more excuses. The time is NOW!!!

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Yes I do have an issue with it.

I have an issue with property taxes and inheritance taxes.

And I have an issue with people who conflate claims to property as "rights" to property which leads to the absurd conclusion that someone has to provide that property to you if you can't get it yourself.

"Agrarian Justice" leads to statism, mostly in the communist form. I have no interest in it.

This all started because you made an errant assertion about "rights" remember? You are relying on Paine for your assertion, but Paine was wrong. His theories you cited lead to very bad conclusions. Even his own suggestions to achieve it are anathema to liberty. I'm amazed he didn't see the contradiction himself.

You obviously haven't read AJ

And are satisfied demagoging the issue to confirm and conform others to your ideology. This issue is lost to you but may not be for others who look into it.

So because I don't agree with it that means I haven't read it?

How absurd!

On the other hand, it was you who made the claim that "needs are rights." And that until we have "justice" on this count, we won't be truly free. Sounds like demagoguery to me.

I've countered you all the way on this. Your only resort was to Paine, who as I pointed out, was wrong as well.

You haven't given on iota of explanation as to why your position is correct. I've given you cold hard reasons that it is wrong. You instead resorted to relying on the gravitas of someone else to make your point. Your error, is that in this case, this someone else was also in error.

It doesn't look like we are going to agree at all on this issue.

I see no point in continuing the conversation.

I stand by my position that "rights" are "authorities to take action." They should not be confounded with claims to things. To do so is to imply that one is owed things even if they cannot obtain them by their own actions, thus you are either a slave who is provided for, or a master who forces others to provide for you. In either case, if you cannot provide for yourself, you are not free.

You avoiding the question

makes one think you have not read it... LOL!

I can't make you watch or read this either...



You should edit your last sentence to read: "if you cannot provide for yourself, you are SOL!"

I disagree, and if I have to be penalized for having a conscience then so be it. There must be a minimum standard of living, otherwise you will have chaos and no one will be safe. What good is having all the money in the world, and all the property in the world, if you cannot live in a secure world??? Anarchists and statist are NOT the only kind of extremists!!!

I am not even bothering to continue the "conversation" I am not trying to convince myself anything, nor anyone else for that matter. You want to personalize it for some reason, that escapes me completely.

General welfare, right?

If the people want to provide for the less fortunate, are they not individually capable of organizing the appropriate private and charitable means to do so...or are you really so cynical about the choices of individuals acting of their own free will that you think the government must have the power to enforce (by the force of law and violence) someone's vision of a "minimum standard of living" just to be on the "safe" side?

Who has the money for this in a depression?

Where is it? People are living in their cars and tent cites and being preyed upon and where are all of these noble civil minded people who want to help for nothing in return.... Well???? Providing a minimum standard of living maintains a basic civil order. What your advocating is anarchy.... That is the difference between theory and reality.

The government takes the real earnings and

...supposedly does with those real earnings what the individual naturally ought to have the choice to do or not to do. Yet plenty of people are doing good with the earnings they do get to keep and with their time, despite the illusion they ought not need to.

Meanwhile the government feeds the collected real earnings into a system of debt and then borrows more in order to manipulate abdication of power from the people (individuals), making them believe they ought not need to or cannot do great things but by the hand of a powerful government. Throwing debt at problems and spawning perpetual dependency systems, finding more and more things to protect us from (even from ourselves), starting wars to sustain power and seize more influence...those are the tendencies of government.

Government only helps people forget that the choice to be charitable is always the individual's, despite costs of government apparatus erected around issues for the individual's consideration. If you want a more charitable world it is individuals you will need to convince, but you can be sure that government will be glad to take more earnings if it makes you feel better about avoiding that seemingly unending road of real human challenges.

It should be provided...

I don't care if it's charity, but if charity can't do it, the church should do it. If the church can't do it, then the representative government should do it. If the community won't do it, somebody has to. You can't absolve yourself of your responsibility to humanity. Why should our taxes go to the wealthy class, and leave nothing for those in need? What your advocating is that the rich are entitled to wealth and welfare... That is immoral.

You can't hold the weak accountable and exempt the wealthy class and those who enable them...

Abolish the income tax. Reinstate honest money. But if your not gonna do that, eliminate corporate welfare and provide something to those in need otherwise you will have anarchy and disorder... Government is suppose to serve the people, not serve them up on a plate!

The way you word things

(Collective) charity, the church, the government... So external. It is you. The "responsibility" to your neighbor is yours. You may think it is your neighbor's likewise to you, but what and how much (if anything) your neighbor should contribute to you if you fall on hard times is for your neighbor to decide. The moment your neighbor's livelihood becomes your decision under threat of force and imprisonment is the moment your neighbor becomes your unwilling servant (slave). No longer free. Even if he would have been generous had you but left him the choice.


When Ron Paul worked at a teaching hospital was that slavery? Do people who work in the public service sector become slaves because they choose professions that serve the public interest? You are providing them a service, and they are allowing you to apply your trade. End of story. If you provide housing to a carpenter so he will help you build in your town (outside of monetary gain GASP!) that is a free association and mutually beneficial exchange. Arrangements can be made to adequately compensate an individual outside of just federal reserve notes. Ever heard of a food co-op? Your looking at this from a linear perspective, when there are more than absolutist statements that can serve to rectify these situations, hypothetical and otherwise...

Psst! It's called public SERVICE, you have a choice to do anything else. And you don't have to use money as a means of voluntary exchange. That is what Voluntarism truly is and means. Like minded people getting together to address a need in society.

You missed the point

...if Dr Paul was threatened that he must contribute 20% or so of his time working at a teaching hospital under threat of violence and imprisonment, then your comparison would be more appropriate. And, even if he would have volunteered for it, it ceases to be voluntary.

They choose to be doctors...

And as long as they receive compensation (it does not have to be Fed Reserve notes) your concerns are unfounded. They can choose to be doctors or not... They have a choice. That is the whole point. You aren't drafting them to be doctors or work in the public service sector...

When people of your beliefs ACT on them...

in larger numbers, I will agree with each and every one of you. Until that time I am reminded of a particular quote "Conviction is a luxury for those on the sidelines..." In other words... It's easy to maintain a strong belief or opinion if you are not affected by the end result of it.

Where is this ardent belief in charity if you, or anyone like you is unwilling or unable to provide it...

So it's every person for themselves, with the mantra being "I've got mine, the hell with you!" And this ideology is different than any other HOW!?! You are no different than Romney preaching austerity for those in need and bailouts and welfare for the elite. Same difference.

Crony capitalist have unlimited rights, the government has unlimited rights, multinational corporations have unlimited rights, and the people have NO rights?

The flaw in your argument is that an unenforced Constitution has the same effect as NO constitution at all! And if the government exists to provide protection for the elite of society against the people, then what is the point of having any government at all...

If the government does not exist to protect the people and their unalienable rights, then it is illegitimate and should be abolished. If not directly than indirectly with non violent non compliance and dissent.

If the founders believed in working within the corrupt system to overthrow it, they never would have written the Declaration of Independence, nor fought the Crown to make it stick! They would have taken "the long view" and become a part of the aristocracy to "influence it from within", which is just as ludicrous now as it would have been then. And nothing would have changed.

Of course that doesn't matter because the Crown Corporation has run this country since the Revolution and our representatives are merely administrators of the Crown corporation, carrying out the Bankers agenda. Just like our representatives are trustees of the Bankruptcy since 1933. They do not take orders from us, and they never did. That is why no matter who you elect... nothing changes.


You fail to see you are avoiding your own role in a free society. You want others to be more charitable, but you feel you cannot convince them and so you would turn the guns of government agencies on them and require part of their earnings from them as penalty. Start with that idea.

That is even ignoring that the penlty serves only to empower and embolden big government and does (measured against its cost) very little at all toward the charitable ends you originally espoused.

What penalty?

What tax? It is a service provided to the people. There are other ways to fund this than a tax, and through fiat dollars. Fiat currency is NOT the only available incentive. Your being closed minded again and going around the same circles... If you would stop and digest what is being written you wouldn't react so impulsively and so dogmatically.

Now you're just digging a deeper hole for yourself.

"A minimum standard of living?"

Are you kidding me?


How long have you been reading the DP?

Have you learned nothing?

I have some reading for you as well - mises.org - ALL OF IT.

When you are done, you'll have no need for such quaint notions any longer.

I never said one was SOL if they couldn't provide for themselves.

There is always voluntary charity.


On BOTH ends.

What you advocate doesn't imply voluntary. In order for it to work, it requires forced welfare. Nothing less.

Lack of some form of socialism does not equate to anarchy. I can be quite secure in a world where people are not "owed" anything from anyone else just because you or Thomas Paine say so.

In fact, I would be MUCH more secure because I wouldn't have people like yourself advocating that my property be taken from me so that you could meet the guarantee "of all" to have access to property.

And while you never explicitly stated that I should be stolen from to provide for others, how else do you expect to GUARANTEE everyone has what you think they need?

If some can't provide it for themselves, where will it come from? If not enough people produce enough for themselves AND those who can't (or more likely WON'T) then how do you achieve the "minimum standard?" How is that enforced PRACTICALLY?

There is only ONE way - theft.

Some do it outright. Others rename it "taxation."

It's the same either way.

And for the record, it is precisely because I have a conscience that I don't advocate what you advocate.

Your ideas, Paine's ideas, are flawed and will doom people to despotism.

There's nothing compassionate or conscientious about that.

Theft is not civilized.

It is barbaric.


Where will this charity come from when everybody has NOTHING! Providing food to the hungry and housing to the homeless, keeping society running by keeping kids in school instead of preyed upon on the street is "despotism", you are so lost in ideology that you can't even decipher the meaning behind basic words. Get over yourself, you are not on a crusade and nobody cares. You have your view and I have mine. You do not have to tax to provide anything. It's a choice between humanity and enabling anarchy that ends up appealing to fascism. I haven't been demagoguing you for disagreeing but you keep trying I have a solution: "The street is free enterprise, you walk your side, I'll walk mine..."

Tell ya what..

I am not a violent person, but when I hear Mr Honey-drips-from-my-gaping-mouth Hunter, I want to SLAP him.

In case anyone does not get it: Jack Hunter, the SouthernPretender, runs the RonPaul2012.com site. Since before Texas voted, Jack was using that site to promote HIMSELF and Rand and Gary Johnson. How's them apples? We pay for moneybombs and Jack uses the cash and the exposure for THIS?

Gosh; Jack, can you be MORE transparent? I am SO glad people are seeing what I've seen for too long. Hunter is not on OUR side, and he is not on the side of LIBERTY!

We had SOME proof, but RNC does not care about Rules n Laws- they just break and then change 'em to suit whomever (not PAUL).

I never could stand listening to him. He drones on and on.

His voice inflection needs lots of work.

His speech patterns are annoying as hell.

Im going to remove my licence plates

and shred my drivers license.

fortune favors the bold

Jack Hunter does not get it

America is being turned into a Fascist Police State.
By all objective measures it is already a long way down that path.

Hitler rose to power on the back of extreme economic hardship.
Europe is going into recession and America will follow.
There will be mass unemployment and mass civil disorder due to extreme economic hardship by 2016.

Does not the ordering of 450 million hollow point bullets by DHS worry you?
Does not the E.O. for martial law worry you?
Does not the repeal of Posse Comitatus worry you?
Does not the recent dry run of martial law and troops on the streets in St Louis worry you?

How many of your civil liberties will be left in 2016?
TPTB will call on a "strong leader" to sort out the mess America is in, in 2016.
The Dems will have no chance of winning with the economic turmoil under the 2nd Obama term.
The transition of America into a Fascist Police State will be able to be completed.

"In the end, more than they wanted freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all -- security, comfort, and freedom. When ... the freedom they wished for was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free."

Careful dude...

...pointing out all of these facts may cause Jack Hunter to label you as a worrisome 'fringe element' within the liberty movement.

You will never be "allowed" to be free

You have to FIGHT to be free and you do that by going to your GOP committee, causus, council meetings as a guest, and expressing you opinions respectfully, and when election time rolls around CHALLENGE THEM FOR THEIR SEATS, get qualified, and force them on the ballot, put yourself on the ballot for a seat. Wake people up!!!

1. committe seat
2. Go for another office (whatever you can handle)

Ron Paul gave us everything, and too many expect everything for going "Rah rah RON PAUL here's $25 for the money bomb Rah rrah RP!"

Committee/ caucus/council meetings are for one hour a month.. Geesh!!! Go and school these people with LOVE.

Granger, you are correct sir!

This is indeed the r3VOLution instruction we were presented with.
While other "leaders" are content with their supporters, Ron Paul has insisted that his supporters become "leaders".*

I have money bombed, I am now a Precinct Committeeman and I am determining what further office to pursue based on what I truly believe I can handle.

Strength in numbers. Together, we're heavy.

In Liberty.

* I used the word "leader" for simplicity. My true thoughts are, "Leaders? We don't need no stinking leaders!". What we need are true Representatives. Leaders tell you what they think and act accordingly, Representatives ask what you think and act accordingly.

America Rising.
The Constitution Stands.

"That the pen is mightier than the sword would be proven false; if I should take my sword and cut off the hand that holds the pen" - American Nomad

American Nomad

You KNOW we are going to win, and I'm happy you and I are on the same team.

RP is my political leader and I'm happy to admit that. If it was not for RP, I can't say I would be a Republican, seated on a committee or where I am at all.

Many are called, and few are chosen, and we only need to come to DP to see, many are called and few actually get it, and even fewer had the guts to step up and follow Ron Paul.

Leaders are a good thing, for we can LEARN from their mistakes and victories, sparing us time, energy and pain.

Nice try. :)

I find these attempts to demoralize laughable.



I try to change people every day. Do You?

You just sabotaged

You just sabotaged yourself.

When will we be allowed to be free?

Nobody will ever be allowed to be free, you've got to fight to be free!

Excuse me... You are BORN FREE!

Others will try to take it away from you and he is 100?% correct when he says that they only way to not let others take it away is to NON-COMPLIANCE.

Follow the model of Ghandi and MLK.


Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. ~Thomas Paine

Thats what Ron Paul Yellow Pages is all about...

...taking back our country the real way, the hard way, by rebuilding it from the ground up. We cannot be spectators if we want real change.