Why do some folks have a beef with usury and foreclosures?
Submitted by tonym on Sun, 07/22/2012 - 08:35It seems like a perfectly legitimate service to me. If I don't have the money I need, a company will loan it to me on the condition that I pay it back at an agreed upon schedule. If I fail my side of the bargain, I lose. What's the problem with that?
For the record, it would be great if no one ever bought what they couldn't pay for outright, but it still seems legit, business-wise.
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big funds
Who are they?
You know that poor schlep?
It's his pension plan.
Sorry, I added that after you probably read it.
WAHOR!!
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48994
I have absolutely no problem
I have absolutely no problem with usury. I do have a problem with legal tender laws that force people to accept a currency for debts, one that is constantly losing value, and then having arbitrary interest rates dictated to them from on high. In my view if every individual was allowed to attempt to create a currency and every individual was allowed to accept whatever currency they felt served their best interest then the usury issue would become a non-issue as market homeostasis between competing suppliers and self interested users was reached.
Creating a monopoly on money guarantees that there will be a restricted supply of useful currency and drives the cost up screwing everyone except the privileged few at the tip of the monopoly pyramid.
The Social Blessings of "Usury"
"The wonderful thing about voluntary loan transactions in the free market is that both the borrower and the lender benefit from such transactions. Loan transactions occur in the first place because borrows and lenders have different rates of time preference, and the fact that the agreed upon rate of interest is very high does not change that reality."
http://mises.org/daily/1977
Also read the Chapter entitled "The Moneylender" on page 121 from Walter Block's book - Defending the Undefendable
http://library.mises.org/books/Walter%20Block/Defending%20th...
Why do some people have a beef with usury and forclosures?
I'll tell you why. It is because most, not some, people feel that they have a right to tell others how they can do business and what others can and can not do with their property.
If you were willing to lend me money and I wanted to borrow money from you, the terms that you & I come to for that loan should be for us to determine mutually. However, this is not the case. People feel it is the business of a third party to interfere with our business and to determine what agreements you and I will be allowed to make without being punished in some way for disobedience.
In the case of banking, this is further compounded by the fact that the third party controls what money is and the value of it as well as which one of it's pals gets access to the most of it. In addition, thanks to the third party granting it's pals special privileges in regards to money, such as allowing it's pals to essentially create money out of thin air, provided that the government gets it's cut back in return of course. Naturally, the government protects it's pals from competition in this market because if they didn't, who would grant any value to paper backed by nothing?
So when you consider all of this together, it basically creates a mess. People feel justified in asking a third party to interfere with what ought to be private business because they see that the businesses they are allowed into the market are using that third party to gain an advantage on their customers. The only winners in this situation are the third party and the businesses that continue to play ball the way that the third party requires them to. Consumers never can or will win in this scenario.
Movies, projections.
There are a number of movies that throw light into darkness. Darkness means absence of Light, no attention, no focus,= no knowledge, because you gain knowledge by witnessing.
I will list 5 that have similar themes, but are different in style, time and location.
1) "The International", starring Naomi Watts, was shown on HBO.
2) "Wisdom", 1986, starring Demi Moore, girlish.
3) "Scars of Dracula", starring Christopher Lee.
4) "Being There", Peter Sellers, Shirley Mclaine, subtle humour.
5) "Conspiracy Theory", starring Mel Gibson, Julia Roberts.
Stories from the dark world, on smoked-glass-screens, about U$ury.
Tick$ & http://www.UsDebtClock.org ~
Trick$ - http://www.economist.com/content/global_debt_clock
foreclosure
bump
Ez
All of
those names belong to 'the tribe.'
Luke 3:38
Isaiah 43:3-5
A house costs Seven Hundred Thousand in San diego
Eight Hundred thousand in los angeles
One MILLION in san francisco
The thing is... these prices are a joke, they are CAUSED by the loans.
So the point is, you cannot escape the terror system which enslaves you to the banks.
its not like you can say "Oh i'll just be a renter all my life and expect social security to pay for it all when i'm old and feeble"
Vancouver, B.C Canada is so
Vancouver, B.C Canada is so bad that there is a site called Crack Shack or Mansion? You try to decide which house is a crack shack and which one is a million dollar house. It is pretty hard to differentiate them, they all look pretty much the same except for maybe a few crack shack hints here and there.
i think this explains better
I figured someone here would have posted this already so I had to.
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/21623
http://mises.org/daily/4070
thanks for the links
thanks for the links
"and the truth shall make you free"
John 8:32
Generally speaking
Interest is the antithesis to charity. Instead of helping your fellow man you give him something(positive) and expect that something (neutral) and EXTRA in return(negative).
interest creates wealth for both parties
Voluntary interactions are a positive sum game.
http://voices.yahoo.com/an-economic-philosophical-refutation...
U$ury = Anti-Charity.
zforce, well said, saved us all from so many eX'Terrrra words, thanks & +1.
to contribute here - I will offer links or copy-paste para.
Tick$ & http://www.UsDebtClock.org ~
Trick$ - http://www.economist.com/content/global_debt_clock
Is it negative? It is simply
Is it negative? It is simply the rent on a form of property for a given amount of time, nothing more, nothing less...unless there is fraud involved in the contractual agreement. There is nothing extra about interest, it is the agreed sum for the time of using money. In another way of looking at it, interest is the charge assessed against the time that money is not available to the lender while being available to the borrower.
http://militantjeffersonian.com
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent...to put shackles upon sleeping men.
— Voltairine de Cleyre
These loans have no legal owner first of all.
If you borrow money you are perpetuating the status quo of the financial system. If no one borrows money, the FED, banks and the Rentseekers are toast, no matter what they do. Once people grasp these facts we will all be free of their influence. It's that simple, no more loans no matter what. Prices will also drop since all products will be bought with cash, no leverage. Leverage creates inflation. Money is lent into existence through loans. If you don't want inflation, don't borrow money.
Maybe it's to complex for you
Maybe it's to complex for you but
"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currencies, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their prosperity until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
~President Thomas Jefferson, letter to Treasury Secretary Albert Gallatin (1802)
http://kevboyle.blogspot.gr/2012/02/protocols-20-23-program-...
http://www.jewishproblem.com/jews-are-behind-financial-colla...
Luke 3:38
Isaiah 43:3-5
Complex?
This doesn't sound like a complexity issue.
The OP isn't talking about currency issuance. Everyone understands Federal Reserve Notes = Bad Deal.
He means in general, there are people here who think loans and interest on them are evil, and he's curious why a business relationship between two parties for mutual benefit is evil.
Eric Hoffer
http://gplus.to/jamesrmoore
read
my original post again.
"It seems like a perfectly legitimate service to me".
Luke 3:38
Isaiah 43:3-5
The complexity is this, it
The complexity is this, it appears to be a major problem with those who seek to propagate a certain ideology, that problem is that there is NO such letter containing that quote to Albert Gallatin, the quote is fake, but it is, like others, widely used, especially by the Greenbacker, Anti-Usury crowd.
http://militantjeffersonian.com
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent...to put shackles upon sleeping men.
— Voltairine de Cleyre
U$ury Enslaves
Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great…
http://www.silverstockreport.com/essays/Usury_Enslaves.html
read full article, very well written by a faithful Christian.
Tick$ & http://www.UsDebtClock.org ~
Trick$ - http://www.economist.com/content/global_debt_clock
Ezekiel 22:12
"In you they take bribes to shed blood; you take interest and profit and make gain of your neighbors by extortion; but me you have forgotten, declares the Lord God."
Lots of verses in Ezekiel concerning usery of others.
If one was poor, and you lent them something, they paid back what you lent - not with interest.
The only time Jesus actually became "angry" was at the moneychangers in the temple.
Righteous Indignation at the Temple.
+1, so right, verses in Ezekiel are really heavy ones. Regarding the scene at the temple, it was based on the Law, Psalms 15:1&5. see "Righteous Indignation",
Wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteous_indignation
[[ Righteous indignation is typically a reactive emotion of anger over perceived mistreatment, insult, or malice. It is akin to what is called the sense of injustice. In some Christian doctrines, righteous indignation is considered the only form of anger which is not sinful, e.g., when Jesus drove the money lenders out of the temple. (Gospel of Matthew 21)
Tick$ & http://www.UsDebtClock.org ~
Trick$ - http://www.economist.com/content/global_debt_clock
Yes, and the bible also
Yes, and the bible also states other things as well, thus the question is if you choose to support your position using a few verses from the bible, then why would you also not support other edicts such as stoning for the various "crimes". At least, usury was not a death sentence under biblical edict, right....
Exodus 21:17
“Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21:
"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death."
Unlike the old testament, it is difficult to find a direct command that bans usury in the new testament. While you might interpret Luke 6:35 as an edict, it is, in fact, not. In fact, there are no such bans in the new testament at all.
As far as Jesus and the Moneychangers, he was also "angry" at those who were buying selling, also his anger at the moneychangers was because they used fraudulent weights to change the money, thus depriving justice to those whom they provided the service of moneychanging. It is strange that Jesus never really condemned them, only their fraudulent practices.
The whole concept behind Luke 6:35 also appears relate to another verse in the Sermon on the Mount which, goes even further than what people (christians) usually seem to consent to in their lives:
“If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.”
If you seek to eliminate and ban usury then you would also, by logical conclusion also seek to eliminate and ban all private property rights since it appears that Jesus said that if someone, anyone wants to take something you own then just give it to him and don’t demand it back. So, if someone comes up to you and wants your car you should, by your own standards, give it to him without demanding it back, right? That is the logic of the defense of your position, is it not?
You simply can’t pick and choose which portion of the bible you believe you should act upon. Thus, by your standards, if I want something, anything that you own, you should, without any hesitation, freely give it to me. Is that not true?
The fact is that I can almost guarantee that you live an inconsistent life, but are more than willing to seek to mandate your selective belief system on others. What is interesting is the way most christians superficially interpret the bible, usually to suit their particular outlook or a set of selective beliefs, perhaps that is why there are so many christian denominations, the hear different words when reading the bible.
http://militantjeffersonian.com
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent...to put shackles upon sleeping men.
— Voltairine de Cleyre
Lenders, Not Changers.
in the older versions of the NT the term used is "Money-Lender", - now most are using 'money-changers, which in itself is a front for money-lending. See the post on "Righteous Indignation" above.
Tick$ & http://www.UsDebtClock.org ~
Trick$ - http://www.economist.com/content/global_debt_clock
So, answer the other
So, answer the other questions posed to you! You are avoiding the issues raised. You avoid the other references within the bible, as well as the logic behind your construction of logic when you claim the right to adhere to one portion of the bible and push it on others, but avoid claiming adherence to the other portions which, you probably would refuse to adhere to because they simply don't make any sense to you. You have yet to offer any information on just how economic calculation, pricing, or really any economic action would occur if interest, a purely market phenomenon, were banned by your theocratic regime. Tell us by what economic mechanism would the economy function without the human action of time preferences functioning within it?
So, since you are against usury are you also in favor of stoning for the various ethical abbreviations addressed in the bible? Again, to simply pick and choose is convenient, isn't it? The hypocrisy among christians is often so astounding that they rarely recognize it within themselves...
Now the Greek word used for Moneychanger is kermatistés, the definition of that word is: a changer of large into smaller coins, so that doesn't quite fit into the definition that you really need in order to maintain your position using that particular verse in the bible, does it? For if the writer of that gospel wanted to use Money Lender he would have chosen a different word, the Greek word:danistés
http://militantjeffersonian.com
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent...to put shackles upon sleeping men.
— Voltairine de Cleyre
The reason why najam is skirting the issue is very simple.
The guy or gal equates all lender's as JEWS.
And he is not a big fan of JEWS.
The guy is a bigot and he can't answer the question honestly because he has made two false assumptions.
1. Jews are evil.
2. All "money-lenders" are Jews.
Imagine trying to be perfectly clear when you have made two very false assumptions and you are trying to build your principles on these two false assumptions.
WAHOR!!
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48994
Yep, he rails about what he
Yep, he rails about what he considers the sin of usury and yet he is blind to his own sin of anti-Semite hatred....don't you just love the hypocrisy his testimony presents as a witness to his religion? He has no answers to the questions of economics within a free market, in fact if you carefully read his writings you will quickly see that he is against the free market and would probably love to see a theocracy.
http://militantjeffersonian.com
"So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent...to put shackles upon sleeping men.
— Voltairine de Cleyre
Personally ....
I think you give him too much credit.
He simply hates Jews and that is all that drives him.
There is a whole group of them on here and they swarm the bigot threads.
Occasionally they try to spread their hate on honest threads like this, but they usually tend to stick with what they know.
WAHOR!!
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48994