-17 votes

Questions and rants for the MK-Ultra conspiracy fanatics...

Are you aware that MK Ultra was a massive failure? The experiments they conducted were immoral and illegal, but the progress they made was comparable to the Nazi scientists in the concentration camps. They accomplished nothing. All they learned is that they are unable to do mind control with psychedelic tryptamines or other psychotropics. They were so unsuccessful that the subjects voluntarily took the same drugs for fun!

Do you know that MK Ultra was abandoned 60 years ago (for good reason)? Do you know that repeating urban myths and propaganda as unquestionable facts? Are you aware that most of the claims about scopolamine and SSRIs and hydrocodone and whatever other drug of the moment to blame ignore basic principles in pharmacology?

Are you aware that you are manipulating the liberty community in the same way that the media and government manipulate the public? It has gotten to the point to where you are downvoting and attacking (not just me) but anyone who questions your MK-Ultra conspiracy claims? Are you aware that most of the urban myths surrounding drugs were invented by the media and government?

I admit that the Batman shooting situation is suspicious and confusing. I have as many questions as anyone. But using this tragedy to fear-monger against psychotropics is dishonest and anti-intellectual. If you don't like psychotropics that is fine, but don't lie to make your points. Don't spread baseless fear. Don't use the crisis to push this irrelevent anti-drug agenda. Please research sites besides NaturalNews and Infowars because they are just as dishonest and uninformed about most matters as the rest of the media.

Always question authority, but don't abandon reason. Please stop with the MK-Ultra accusations and concentrate on what is important. There are real conspiracies to worry about. Like the Federal Reserve.



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I moved the thread to off-topic

I will continue debating this later if you want.

There is something that many

There is something that many are missing.

Nobody matching James Holmes description was ever seen by a single person in the theater. A man in tactical gear with a helmet and gas mask was. The masked man also never said anything - so there can be no recognizing his voice.

For all we know someone else threw the gas canisters and fired weapons. Someone with easy access to police type gear. Like a cop. They were, after all, on the seen almost immediately in scores.

J.H. didn't have to be mind controlled and sent on a shooting spree. He just had to be high enough not to know what was going on and not to remember anything afterward. There are common street drugs that can achieve that.

Nice try

http://www.amazon.com/Medication-Madness-Psychiatrist-Mood-A...
"Medications for everything from depression and anxiety to ADHD and insomnia are being prescribed in alarming numbers across the country, but the “cure” is often worse than the original problem. Medication Madness is a fascinating, frightening, and dramatic look at the role that psychiatric medications have played in fifty cases of suicide, murder, and other violent, criminal, and bizarre behaviors."

http://www.truebooks.com/prozac.html

Furthermore if you are naive enough to think that the program MK-Ultra was abandoned 60 years ago I've got a bridge for sale.

Mr MK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Ewen_Cameron#Project_MKU...

2nd in command Jolyon West (not much here and a lot of references are gone from the web)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Jolyon_West

Ahhh the connections.
http://www.whale.to/b/hoffman.html

http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/03-18-04/discussion.cgi.18....

November 6th 2012 I voted for Dr.Ron Paul
"We must remember, elections are short-term efforts. Revolutions are long-term projects." ~ Ron Paul

Are you kidding me?

I feel like I am in crazyville. To prove me that MK Ultra is continuing, you link me to a guy who died in the 60's and another who died in the 90's. Then like everyone else, you link to Prozac. Prozac is an SSRI. The guy below piped in "and don't forget about the Haitian lobotomy" which is of course about TTX and SCOPOLAMINE. The MK-Ultra crowd is like a fanatical cult. They cite the same drugs over and over again- scopolamine, Prozac and the other SSRIs, LSD, bath salts, and similar drugs. You proved nothing. You are repeating the same sources and same baseless accusations as every other conforming conspiracy theorist.

You know what, I am starting to believe in brainwashing. I think the greatest brainwashing MK-Ultra ever did was 60 years after it ended with the Alex Jones "everything is a conspiracy and mind control crowd." Every person says the same thing. Every person on here posting about MK-Ultra knows the same urban legends. Maybe you guys are right after all.

Without trying to insult you,

I say that it's funny how *some* people will confess to heinous crimes under intense iteragation, even without torture, but even the most powerful government in the history of the world, with nearly unlimited resources, *had* a psy-ops unit that was a complete failure (years ago) and can't brainwash *any* body (even today).

Only people like Chuck Manson can do that kind of black magic, right?

THE MORE I LEARN ABOUT GOVERNMENT
THE MORE I LOVE MY GUNS
FourWindsTradingPost

Religion does it all the time

I said what I thought was very clear that there is no such thing as chemically brainwashing somebody, as many people have claimed in different ways on this said. MK Ultra was primarily a program to find ways to chemically brainwash somebody and it was a failure.

Organizations that "brainwash" don't do it with drugs. I challenge you to name one that does.

or maybe it has to do with this....

Cinema Shooter James Holmes' father , Robert Holmes, is set to provide crippling info on LIBOR & other banking scandals.

http://mortgagemovies.blogspot.ca/2012/07/kingcast-and-mortg...

"Most important to note about James Holmes, however, this report says, is that his father, Robert Holmes, was said to have been scheduled to testify within the next few weeks before a US Senate panel on the largest bank fraud scandal in world history that is currently unfolding and threatens to destabilize and destroy the Western banking system. Robert Holmes, whose “blueblood” family links go back to the Mayflower, is known throughout the global banking community as being the creator of one of the most sophisticated computer algorithms ever developed and is credited with developing predictive models for financial services; credit and fraud risk models, first and third party application fraud models and internet/online banking fraud models.

Educated at the University of California, Berkeley and Stanford University, Robert Holmes is currently the senior lead scientist with the American credit score company FICO, which was formally known as Fair, Isaac and Company, and which every American citizen is beholden to should they need to borrow money."

Psychotronic Weapons

Have you ever heard of psychotronics? "The science of mind-body-environment relationships, an interdisciplinary science concerned with the interactions of matter, energy, and consciousness."

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_psychotron...

Scroll on down to Control Mental Files & click for more.

Perhaps they have merely progressed beyond MK Ultra.

I followed the link

Here is the first one I clicked on.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/branton/esp_dulcebook31.htm

It started talking about aliens. Sorry I prefer to live in reality.

This is exactly the crap I am ranting against.

There are literally hundreds

There are literally hundreds of other files you could look at. You somehow skipped right over the 1 before it: "Brain Zapping Electronic Mind Control" http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol...

"In 1996, the US Air Force Scientific Advisory Board published a 14-volume study of future developments in weapons called New World Vistas. Tucked away on page 89 of an ancillary 15th volume are some hair-raising insights into the future ‘coupling’ of man and machine in a section dealing with ‘Biological Process Control ’. The author refers to an ‘explosion’ of knowledge in the field of neuroscience, adding, ominously: One can envision the development of electromagnetic energy sources, the output of which can be pulsed, shaped, and focused, that can couple with the human body in a fashion that will allow one to prevent voluntary muscular movements, control emotions (and thus actions), produce sleep, transmit suggestions, interfere with both short-term and long-term memory, produce an experience set, and delete an experience set. Translating the words ‘experience set’ from military jargon into plain English, this means, simply, that they envisage the ability to erase your life’s memories and substitute a new, fictitious set."

You also missed "Mind Control The Ultimate Terror" "and "Synthetic Telepathy"..."The head of US Special Forces, Major-General Schaknow, made the first public revelations about synthetic telepathy during a July 1992 lecture at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. Certainly, the mechanisms by which synthetic telepathy might operate are well within the capabilities of US military technology. Without being limited by qualms or ethical concerns, the military is almost certain to have developed synthetic telepathy in a usable form and deployed it against internal ’subversives’ such as militia members and black activists. It seems that your own thoughts may no longer be private. Worse still, your own thoughts might not be your own."
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_psychotron...
This is very real. Just google it if you don't like that site.

Experiments were carried-on

Experiments were carried-on under different names. MK Ultra was just one - a more widely known and publically addressed program. When people refer to MK Ultra they are using it as a generic reference to those types of programs. You are making just as many baseless claims as you accuse others of doing.

"Are you aware that most of the claims about scopolamine and SSRIs and hydrocodone and whatever other drug of the moment to blame ignore basic principles in pharmacology?"

What basic principles of pharmacology are being ignored? So, according to pharmacology it is impossible for drugs to have mind altering and reality altering effects?

My claim is baseless? What evidence is there to prove

the continued existence of programs like MK Ultra? Do I have to prove a negative? That it doesn't exist? Nobody that I seen so far has ever cited any program other than MK-Ultra. They are the ones that should be proving these things (and they aren't).

People are ignoring what the effects of drugs are. Several are claiming brainwashing with scopolamine like it causes someone to listen like a zombie and obeys commands and commit acts of atrocity like cannibalism and mass murder. In doses strong enough to induce delusion and strong hallucinations it also ruins coordination and acts as a sedative. Hardly the properties of a drug useful for creating an aggressive spree killer.

"Mind altering and reality altering effects" is not the same thing as going on a killing spree. Nice straw man argument.

I don't bother

assuming this is some kind of mind control operation. What I wonder is, where is the security video? Why arn't they acknowledging there is one, and why hasn't it been shown yet? The MSM is usually all over disastor video's, what gives? They need more time for CGI touch ups?

“When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic.” – Dresden James

Look up burunganda.

.

I addressed scopolamine specifically in this post

Why don't you look it up please because you don't know anything about it if you think this is self-explanatory. It cannot be used to control someone. It can be used to paralyze someone or give them amnesia, but you can't use it to make someone go on a killing spree. At high doses people can't even walk let alone execute sophisticated physical manuveures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burundanga
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intellig...
http://www.erowid.org/plants/datura/datura.shtml

Sorry, mis-typed it. It's burundanga.

First of all, the possibility of knocking someone out and framing them for a crime that they have no memory of, is all the point I needed to make.
But I'll make another. Mainstream references like wikipedia, and of all places, cia.gov (?! Come on!), bear little weight with this topic.
Try this http://earthops.org/scopalamine1.html
Or look up a video documentary about BURUDANGA on google video. There are way too many reference for me to feed to you.
Still another point. I asked you to look up burundanga, not medicinal scopolamine. The title line of my comment was not supposed to be self-explanatory. It was meant to be a suggestion, which you obviously did not follow up on.

Burundanga is scopolamine

You could have learned that from Wikipedia. You should start there.

The effects of scopolamine are described in great detail. Just because it is mainstream doesn't make it wrong. Erowid and Wikipedia are the best sites on the internet for pyschoactive drugs.

Just because it is "alternative" doesn't make it right. Plenty of garbage infests alternative news media.

Burudanga is scopolamine as marijuana is marinol.

.

It is water compared to dihydrogen monoxide.

Enlighten please to the differrnce

Okay, you win.

I tried.

Just tell me the name

Don't tell me to look it up. Send me the chemical formulas. Not the slang. The chemical formulas.

By the way, I don't know if you are trying to be a dumbass or if you are being sarcastic, but Marinol is the trademark name for THC, the main psycoactive isomer in marijuana.

.

Why would you look to a cia website for this information? Seriously. If you called Reno or Clinton and asked if they covered up the Oklahoma City bombing, what do you think they would say?
Go to 1:29:37-1:32:08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWOSgco7I6g
Now go to 28:23-31:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToQ8PWYnu04
Take it or leave it. I'm moving on.

I know what it is. It used to be used to help intubate patients.

They follow directions. They have no memory afterward. Now look up burudanga. Look up dosage levels. Damn.

Some of the stories about

Some of the stories about Scopolamine could be exaggerations. But, there are multiple stories. This quote may not be accurate but Dr. Camilo Uribe, head of Bogata Columbia's toxicology clinic and leading expert on Scopolamine says,:

"It's like chemical hypnosis."

"When a patient (of U.S. date-rape drugs) is under hypnosis, he or she usually recalls what happened. But with scopolamine, this isn't possible because the memory was never recorded,"

- In the July 03, 1995 edition of the Wall Street Journal

So, he says it can prevent the formation of memories. If it can do that that means no short-term and no long-term during that time. If you have no short-term memory you couldn't even remember your own thoughts - I could see how people under such circumstances would be open to suggestion. So you tell someone to do something and they start doing it but can't remember why, even if they think "wait, what am I doing?" They won't remember that any more than a split second, especially if someone immediate gives you another command.

I actually know a guy who had

I actually know a guy who had a major head injury which impaired his short-term memory. After a few minutes he can't remember what he is doing. He has to write himself notes and such. He can easily get lost in places he isn't familiar with cause he can't remember stuff he passed by on the way to his immediate location.

Okay. Anterograde amnesia because of a physical head injury

What is your point? It wasn't caused by intoxication of a psychoactive chemical correct?

Zachnap you guys are not understanding. We are not debating whether or not there is such a thing as anterograde amnesia. It is well documented in cases in which there is damage to the hippocampus. It is a physical injury. We are talking about chemical here. We are talking about inducing severe amnesia with a chemical without causing sedation of the subject (as he was able to execute a sophisticated killing spree.)

There is no indication that Holmes has anterograde amnesia caused by physical trauma. I bet your friend certainly couldn't conduct a major crime spree because of his condition.

Thank you Zach. You're more patient than I.

.

You're patient?

You are saying NOTHING. Send me the chemical formulas of this so called "burundanga." Better yet, send me the skeletal structures. Show me exactly the chemical differences between your drug and scopolamine.

Don't tell me to look it up. Don't send me a link to some garbage infowars style anectdotal article. She me the chemical structure.

no such thing as mind control?

forty years ago manson got life in prison for using mind control. and the government still hasn't figure it out?

There is no such thing as chemical mind control

Plenty of people are brainwashed by religion, cults, or whatever else.

But there is no chemical that the government can give you to control your brain. There is no chemical that makes you lose free will. That only works in the movies.

Government officials aren't some magical people with superpowers. They use the same manipulation techniques as other people. Not psychotropic related. That is what my whole post was about.