-13 votes

Do you go to Heaven or Hell right when you die? (Christian topic)

My friends and I had a pretty good Bible study on this and I thought it was important to share with my fellow Christian Libertarians, or whom ever wants to take a look. Many people believe that when you die, that you go straight to Heaven or Hell, but it seems nowhere in the Bible does it state we go anywhere but to sleep and our soul goes back to God until that final day.

Job 14:12 KJV

So man lieth down , and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake , nor be raised out of their sleep.

Daniel 12:2 KJV

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake , some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 11:11 KJV

These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth ; but I go , that I may awake him out of sleep .

Acts 20:9 KJV

And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching , he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again , even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Proverbs 30:4 KJV

Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended ? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell ?

John 3:13 KJV

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Acts 2:34 KJV

For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,




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Death is an enemy..

When we die, the spirit(source of life)goes back to God, the body back to the earth. The soul(self)ceases to exist until resurrection. This why "our hope" is in the Resurrection. Simples :o) Religion is what complicates...

A legitimate question, deserving an answer....

I hold to the Reformed position that, although the body is non-functional, we do go to be with Christ.(whether you call it the afterlife or the intermediate state) There are several reasons for this:

Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Truly I say to you, Today you will be with me in Paradise." (Luke 23: 43) A man 'in the throes of death' would not waste words saying what should be obvious to the one spoken to. So I believe it is logical, reasonable, and grammatical to say the comma is placed correctly in my quote above. We also have both evidence from the Older Testament (though not as clear cut as the NT) and solid Newer Testament references, such as Luke 8:49 - 56, 2 Corinthians 5: 1 - 10, and 1 Thessalonians 4: 13 - 18. The clearest scripture on the matter is probably Philippians 1: 19 - 26, where Paul claims, to live is Christ and to die is gain, and dying causes one to be with Christ:

for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

Phl 1:20

according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.

Phl 1:21

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Phl 1:22

But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.

Phl 1:23

But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

Phl 1:24

yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

Phl 1:25

Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith,

Phl 1:26

so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

In the KJ there are exactly 53 verses that deal with this.....

Subject, the Duoay-Rheims there are 54.

Only one of these verses seems to indicate that death is anything more than a deep sleep. The book containing that verse is found in the DR and rejected in the KJ just for the fact that it is hermeneutical and disagrees with all the other books of cannon on the subject.

There are also two resurrections according to scripture: one to life the other to damnation.

But hear me well if you can, love God for His loving character and concern yourself not with the self centered service of a salvation to achieve heavens things or to escape hells punishment. This is the way of the Elect, and no other shall see you home.

Happy Sabbath.

God bless

Stēkō pharrēsia Iesōus

Drew, by the very grace of GOD through the blood of Christ Jesus.
"there shall come after us men whom shall garner great wealth using our system, and having done so shall seek to slam the door of prosperity behind them." George Washington

I'd rather focus on living than dying

.

...

Get busy living or get busy dying.

Well considering

You never know when you're going to die you might want to hedge your bets. I spend most of my life out of water but at some point I expect to get wet enough to need to know how to swim.

Also last time I checked the religious just don't turn into dirt. ) They passover. Atheist "die", usually after they have died inside.

Peter has a song about it

bigmikedude's picture

You don't go to either right away anymore

Nowadays you have to go through the ESA (Eternal Security Agency) pat down/screening first before entering purgatory.

Then you take a number, fill out a form, and float over to ERS (Eternal Revenue Service), pay any remaining taxes and/or penalties due, update your new address, and sign a waiver to relinquish any further Social Security Payments at the SSA (So-much-for-your Security Administration).

Then after you produce an I.D., Death Certificate, and two utility bills proving you now reside in purgatory or pre-judgment limbo to the ALB (Ascension License Bureau) you pay your federal passage fee, receive your new documentation of post-mortem citizenship, and the bailiff will then release you and escort you to the gates for judgment but retains the right to remove you from heaven, pending any remaining charges not herewith resolved, including but not limited to, fines, new taxes laid by congress, penalties, or accusations.

I offer a couple additions:

[I]nfinite [R]evenue [S]ervice
Department of [H]eavenly [S]ecurity
[S]piritual [S]ecurity [A]dministration
[B]ureau of [M]oral [V]essels
Sacred Service
[F]ruit [B]earing [I]nvestigation
Omnipresent License

Where to?

Will this thread go to heaven or hell right when it dies?

Any further discussion should be carried on "off topic", IMHO.

a/c of words on Judgment Day

the answer is clear & easy to understand when you read the first two verses together, i.e. Job & Daniel. The dead physical body may decay or be burnt, but the soul (conscious self) remains in prolonged sleep (un'conscious) till the day of rising.

While alive & conscious in this world we need to be careful with use of words. Read Matthew 12:36-37 =[But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.] KJV

the two verse before it show us the two type of people, =
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

robot999's picture

RIGHT ON!

Thanks for sharing some truth nuggets. I personally think that this idea of our "soul" having an eternal nature is the exact same LIE that was told in the garden by the serpent. A human "soul" is made up of two distinct parts: a body, and a "breath of life" - read Genesis 1. Upon the first death (physical body) the body decays, and the "breath" (or life force) is without consciousness. When the resurrection occurs (wicked or righteous) - then the "breath" is returned to the a body (depending on if your name is written in the Lamb's book of Life) - righteous into a new body, and wicked into the old body.

I'll take this a step further. Hell = eternal separation from God. The second death is Hell - total non-conscienciousness / non-existence. (Not an everlasting burning in some deep dark cavern.) The Bible says there is a lake of fire, but the fire consumes - it is a punishment - it is NOT everlasting, and neither are our "souls". (And the SMOKE of their torment rises for ever and ever.) emphasis mine. Should not be interpreted as Hell being an eternal punishment. My God would not do that to any of His creations.

"Government is the entertainment division of the military-industrial complex". - Frank Zappa

re Body & Breath.

thank you for your attention & response. yes, that is what I meant to say after reading the two verses. You wrote =[When the resurrection occurs (wicked or righteous) - then the "breath" is returned to the a body].

Who loves God more…

The one who seeks God for righteousness sake, or for salvation’s sake.

Over my years I have imagined myself in several religious fantasies. I’ve imagined myself at the Sanhedrin trial of Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin_trial_of_Jesus) where I would ask my own questions of Jesus and of Caiaphas. I have also often asked myself if the following proposition were offered to me, should I accept it.

The proposition is that I agree to go to hell alone with no further possiblity of achieving salvation, to be lost and forgotton by everyone, even God; in exchange everyone else in hell achieves salvation. Even Satan and the one third of the angels that fell with him go back to God. Even the absolutely unrighteous get forgiven and go back to God. Notice that my question is not would I accept this proposition, but should I accept it. Would you? What do you think you should do if offered this choice. What would Jesus do, you think?

I have not served God from fear of hell for I should be a wretched hireling if I served Him from fear; nor from love of heaven for I should be a bad servant if I served for what is given; I have served Him only for love of Him and desire for Him.
--- al-Hasan al-Basri (642-728)

When I was six and attending Baptist Sunday school, my class was given a lecture on heaven and hell, death and the afterlife. When the lecture was over, I asked, “Is there free will in the afterlife?” Apparently no one else had ever asked this question. I was told that, “No, there is no free will in the afterlife because then good deeds could be done in hell, while bad deeds could be done in heaven. But all that is already sorted out before anyone dies, so there is no room for moral agency after one is dead.” So then I asked, “If I don’t take my body with me, and I don’t take my free will with me, why am I supposed to care about having an afterlife at all?” The reaction I got was very surprising at the time, and at 57 it is still surprising. In response, I was told, “Don’t ask such silly questions, and stop being a smartass.” That was the end of the discussion.

It was not long before I made myself a prayer, which I have always kept in my heart and in my mind. "Dear God, let it be your will that will direct my life. Not as I would choose, nor as any person would choose, nor as any religious text would choose, but as you, dear Lord, would choose. This being done, I will be content." I am now curious. Although I might dot my I’s and cross my T’s different from you, in your own faith, do I sound like someone who would be damned for my honest trust and questions?

Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.
-- Thomas Jefferson

I believe that as a racist bigot must die to the person he has been when he hates, the unrighteous person must die to the person they are when they turn from the one true God. Such a death is frightening because it requires one to abandon the only sense of identity one has ever had. It requires one to leap into an unknown stranger’s identity and to trust it will be better than what one has always known. For the fear of hell I could not do such a thing. I doubt many of us could. For the love of righteousness I can do such a thing easily. As naturally as a simple child loves and is loved by their parents.

The following is from what I hope with be on my gravestone so as to provoke a thoughtful reaction from anyone passing by in happenstance. I offer it now as a thoughtful alternative to an afterlife of merely heaven, hell, purgatory, reincarnation, or the many other imagined possiblities.

The Lake
by
David R. Hunt

It is said by some that there is a place where a bright, clear, mountain lake resides, a place where people of this world never visit. To attempt to describe it is possible, but all such tales are probably just fancy. Be that as it may, here is how it was described to me, in my sleep, by the spring rain, when I was still very small and trusting. I was very certain at the time that the rain had not lied or exaggerated, but as I grew older I came to doubt. This would seem to be our way. How sad.

The rain told me that the air at the lake was fresh and clean and yet so thin that I would faint were I to be there. This lake was in the midst of a forest of giant pine trees that appeared to reach forever to the skies above. In contemplating these trees one would wonder if this lake were not really just a small puddle on the forest floor. But as all bodies of water were the same to my singing spring rain, I imagine these distinctions had simply gone unnoticed.

There was something most remarkable about this lake. For I was told that all the souls of all the men & women & little children like myself washed through this water. There seemed to be some hint that all of life had passed by and was passing by this oasis whose place could not be named. As each new life was made, a handful of water was removed from the lake and placed within a mortal body. Day by day the water would be made purer or filthier as that life spent it’s limited time in the world. When that life was done, the water that had been given to it was returned to the lake as its body was returned to dust.

And such was how all the hope and travail of life would come to each new generation. Some would succeed more than it would seem they should and so returned to the lake the courage and celebration that they had made of their lives. Others learned the habit of fear and distrust in their lives when they were very young and so took very meanly of every opportunity as only a threat. They only returned water that was foul and putrid for what else did they ever know.

And so I was told, that was how it was with me and everyone who ever had been, or was, or would be. Parts of me had passed through many lives and parts of me were utterly new and untried. Parts of me would live other lives again and others would be forever still when I was done. None of us was ever created entirely alone nor could we ever be, for like the air and water of this world, which we all communally use and of which our bodies are literally made, our souls are unique and yet all made of the same stuff. How many times would you have to draw water from a lake to draw the same handful? Or is it just a silly question? I don’t know. Somehow it just doesn’t seem to be a very important question now.

What would be an important question anyway?

--- End of The Lake ---

I am asking the question “Why do I love God”? Do I stand before God with the attitude that he is the biggest, baddest, tyrant of all? Do I respect God for fear’s sake or for admiration’s sake? If I could serve God best by losing my own personal salvation, then should I?

I ask you… What is the prize?

"The dearest ambition of a slave is not liberty, but to have a slave of his own."
Sir Richard Burton

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

I was having this conversation

and came to remarkably close conclusions.

I love your lake story.

That's a bogus scenario

Your proposition is like a trick question. Since no one goes to "hell" until judged by "GOD" and you cannot undo God's judgement then the question is mute. People have been given the opportunity to repent and if they do not or say they have yet continue in sin and refuse to obey then why would God want them in His kingdom. They have to change and no one else can do it for them.

I agree that we should serve Him simply because we believe and love Him. But the "fear of Elohim is the beginning of wisdom" Eccl 12

In answer to your second question, NO. If you are sincere then you will not be "damned" but without the wisdom that comes with fear you will not take part in the first resurrection because that is reserved for the saints.

I couldn't get trough the rest of your post because it has no real Scriptural meaning or reference that I could see.

It seems to me that

if Jesus (one pure in heart) could die and go to Hell, but overcome it and be resurrected into life, that a saved soul who had entered Heaven (who was now pure of heart through salvation and Resurrection) could do the same. Should not and could not, therefore, a person who had been saved by Grace, and entered Heaven, offer to take on the punishment of unsaved friends, family members, and strangers, going to hell temporarily for their sins, but then overcoming it and being resurrected into eternal life?

I know there will be more than one or two fundamentalists on this site who will say, "You risk eternal damnation for asking such impertinent questions!" But would you leave your brother, sister, mother, father, best friends, or, for that matter ANY feeling, conscious human being behind? In a sense, I am saying, "I think it is wrong to go to Heaven if any soul has to endure Hell forever." I guess that means, since I refuse to "go along to get along" that I can expect nothing but eternal damnation. In the words of Huckleberry Finn, "Well, I'll just go to hell then..."

http://www.theatlantic.com/in

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/08/the...

They also love God: "Americans are a lot more religious than I ever assumed from watching American television," a Pakistani friend told me when asked what surprised her about first coming to America. An Irish Quora user cited "Prayer breakfasts in the White House. Educated people believing in creationism. The number of churches and denominations. People actually going to church."

I am a jedi

When I die, I well become more powerful than one can imagine.

Lot's of heretical things - if you are a young Christian

I would get out the Holy Bible and carefully study it, pray for God's wisdom, avoid sin and follow God wherever He goes; and make your election sure as 2 Peter 1:10 says. And be conservative and careful what you believe. Ask God for wisdom.

Remember, we aren't talking politics, or debates, or trying to prove something right - we're talking your own life, salvation, whether you talk to God everyday, and how your life goes the next 20 years.

20 years ago, I supported Ron Paul, and was a young Christian. But I have had a lot of heretical ideas in my life, that a sure foundation in God's word and carefully separating myself from the world would have avoided. Although my 'perseverance of the saints' continues, it wasn't the right way to go. Strangers debating on an internet forum is not the way to determine your everlasting life and goodness of life here. You need God in your everyday life. And strangers without. "Friendship with the world is enmity to God" - James 4:4.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

You must be Seventh-Day Adventist

Because modern day protestants don't believe this doctrine anymore.

robot999's picture

Are you saying

the SDA's aren't "modern day" protestants? Aren't these scriptures from the Bible?

"Government is the entertainment division of the military-industrial complex". - Frank Zappa

wolfe's picture

The bible is confused on the subject.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/death.html

Take your pick.

What I am more interested in is why this in the liberty forum, and not in off topic.

I self censor and put my own off topic threads in off topic. Why is that the Christians around here can never be that polite. If you want to discuss it, great for you, but it does not belong in the main forum.

The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.thephilosophyofliberty.com/

Yes even Jesus

encountered the "No resurrection group" (Sadducees) and the "Yes resurrection group" (Pharisees). Jesus affirmed the resurrection of the dead but also showed that the marital relationships will no longer continue.

Matthew 22:23-32
23 The same day some Sadducees came to him, saying there is no resurrection;[a] and they asked him a question, saying, 24 “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies childless, his brother shall marry the widow, and raise up children for his brother.’ 25 Now there were seven brothers among us; the first married, and died childless, leaving the widow to his brother. 26 The second did the same, so also the third, down to the seventh. 27 Last of all, the woman herself died. 28 In the resurrection, then, whose wife of the seven will she be? For all of them had married her.”

29 Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is God not of the dead, but of the living.”

And why was the post about

And why was the post about the origin of Christianity according to Atwill's theory moved to off topic and yet this isn't? Apparently, it depends on what you have to say about Christianity that gets your topic moved.

Blessings )o(

Judgement

Hell is a spiritual death were one is separated from God.

Notwithstanding Dante's imaginary writing, Hell will not be a physical punishment for the wicked. The "Lake of Fire" is figurative, not literal. The thought that God would take pleasure in physical punishment of the wicked for eternity does not fit his divine and holy character.

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"---Ezekiel 33:11

Eternal punishment will come in two forms: One by a resurrected conscience to unrepentant individuals who will finally see (i.e. "Get it") with the greatest mental clarity and see themselves for what they become. The ultimate mirror of truth.

The second part is those people will reside for eternity with others like them. Can you think of anything worse than to have be in the company of a Hitler, a Stalin, a child molester, or those who talk loudly in theaters during the movie for eternity?

Heaven will be those continue associations with our loved ones who stayed true to moral principles, and repented sincerely over their sins.

In short, final judgement is not about balancing the number of good or bad things we do, but what kind of person we become. The Savior's atonement is the means to help us find happiness.

Conscience does not exist if not exercised

"No matter how cynical you get, it's impossible to keep up!
---Lily Tomlin

Does the bible trump the Constitution?

What's more important?

Denise B's picture

That sounds like a typical

loaded question from you freetoroam...still at it I see. The fact is, if you are a true God-fearing Christian, of course the Bible trumps any man-written document, especially if the document promotes or requires something which directly conflicts with Biblical Principles or God's laws; however, many of the rights enshrined in the Bill of Rights are in harmony with what the Bible teaches (due process, protection of property, freedom to worship and many others). What is the point of your question exactly?

SteveMT's picture

Didn't 40 men write the Bible?

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-authors.html

Weren't all of those books voted either into or out of the Bible by men who had a vested interest in their vote, since they were clergy? In other words, they had a conflict of interest.

"God's laws"? Oh boy, hope nothing in the

Constitution conflicts with God's laws. I'm so glad "many" of the rights are in "harmony" with an ancient book of simple parables that can be interpreted a billion different ways. Yeah, makes me feel real secure. Keep your eyes open real Liberty patriots. I think the Constitution has a little competition.