Do you go to Heaven or Hell right when you die? (Christian topic)
Submitted by tog2476 on Thu, 08/02/2012 - 09:09My friends and I had a pretty good Bible study on this and I thought it was important to share with my fellow Christian Libertarians, or whom ever wants to take a look. Many people believe that when you die, that you go straight to Heaven or Hell, but it seems nowhere in the Bible does it state we go anywhere but to sleep and our soul goes back to God until that final day.
Job 14:12 KJV
So man lieth down , and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake , nor be raised out of their sleep.
Daniel 12:2 KJV
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake , some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 11:11 KJV
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth ; but I go , that I may awake him out of sleep .
Acts 20:9 KJV
And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching , he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again , even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Proverbs 30:4 KJV
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended ? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell ?
John 3:13 KJV
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Acts 2:34 KJV
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
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Perhaps a separate forum...
...for philosophy & religion within the site would be appropriate. But keep in mind you should be cautious about lumping 'the Christians' in a group that you despise for following a 'dead prophet': remember, Dr. Paul, himself is in that category of Christians.
My reply to your reply
Be cautious about what? For telling it like it is? He is dead and it is a sky-god religion. Theology and/or religion are not proper DP forum topics regardless of Dr. Paul's personal beliefs.
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Be cautious about...
... coming across as if you lump all Christians together and view them with disdain or even hatred for what you see as their foolish beliefs. We Liberty-minded folk are supposed to be a bit more gracious than that aren't we? You have a point perhaps about whether this thread should be in this or a different forum. But to couple that legitimate question with some kind of seething disgust for Christians in general comes across as just being closed-minded and bigoted. At least try to have a little of the graciousness of Dr. Paul maybe, towards those you view as 'the others'?
Growing up in the Catholic church,
we were taught many years ago about purgatory, where you went after death to atone for your sins, a temporary place of suffering.
I think the reformers...
...were perhaps a little overzealous in throwing out concepts of purgatory. I'd encourage folks to read George Macdonald's Unspoken Sermons, especially the sermon Justice. I come from a typical Evangelical Protestant background but am keeping an open mind as I study this topic. I think too many people put blinders on and refuse to consider all the possibilities because of the way they've been trained to regurgitate the standard theological theories they've heard most of their lives, without really digging in and studying them.
Anyway, I do have to agree, though -- this feels like a bit of strange topic to have on the Daily Paul, unless there's a forum for general religion/philosophy somewhere on here.
LOL...
...couple of closed-minded downvoters, I guess. :) We have to be extremely careful of putting God or Christ in our personal box of theories to contain him, when many of those theories are built on the traditions and speculations of men. The Truth is not afraid of asking any question and challenging any theological idea. I will not believe something simply because that's the way most people in the Church have interpreted things for years. The Truth isn't determined by majority opinion about Scripture.
? ? ?
What is this doing here?! Please move to Off Topic.
Nothing comes to those who wait.
off topic
please move to off topic.
"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst; every other species of tyranny is limited to the world we live in; but this attempts to stride beyond the grave, and seeks to pursue us into eternity."
Thomas Paine
“We have allowed our nation to be over taxed and over regulated and overrun by bureaucrats, the founders would be ashamed of us for what we're putting up with.” Ron Paul
Learn Greek
Questions you have about the Bible are best answered by learning Greek -- it's a very easy language to learn (unlike Hebrew). Paradise παραδείσῳ means beside the God or revered one -- a quiet beautiful place of sanctuary like a park or garden where one is closer to the peace of God. Hence, a park or garden. A related word is δεισιδαιμονία -- having demons as gods.
Where you go when your body fails is a matter of being by the Lord, in His presence, with the millions of those worshipping Him (as glimpsed at in Revelation) or apart from him in the outer darkness. The key to learning Greek is to analyze the building blocks of the language -- it is very dependent on prepositions, roots (interrelated with Hebrew), and participles. Have fun.
Personally, I believe Christ is Saviour of the whole world. He will completely restore all things in the final day (after His 1000 year reign on earth). Then all will be put under His authority and EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess Jesus Lord. All will eventually be saved, whether now in our mortal bodies or later. This is truly news that makes one feel good and frees us to walk in God's Love to ALL people.
If you fully repent, and seek to help your fellow man...
You will go to heaven, without any hesitation or interruption again.
It does not matter what you have done, at that point. If you have repented and released your sins, that is where you go. You will also be forced to see all the things you have done in various lifetimes, in an intermission area since it's really more like being on a space ship.
When you understand that some of us did come from outer space, the idea of being on a space ship in between after life/life events starts to make much more sense. Especially in a world like the one today.
Repent is an English Word
having little to do with the Greek word it is used for as a translation. Μετανοία means to transform your logical mind -- how you think and what thoughts you think. This is to put on Christ in the inner man so that you think His thoughts and express Him more clearly as you are written upon by the Spirit of the Living God when you feed on the Heavenly Bread daily. Thus, we transform our minds by putting on the mind of Christ.
Greek makes a distinction between the logical mind νους and the reins of the emotions (emotional control) which is the φρην -- from which we have frame, frenzy, frantic, schizophrenia, etc. English translations invariably use the one word 'mind' for both Greek words -- highly inaccurate.
That's a tougher subject, Christ Consciousness....
And that gets down to the point of whether you are "ready" to accept such a consciousness and open mind in yourself to be mature about it.
To me, most of the time we are so immature that repentance and atonement are our only real alternatives. Until such time we are able to "accept" and "endow" a consciousness based on mutual respect, exactly as Christ desires, without us wishing to be "above."
If we try, it's by our own efforts, and
doomed to failure through pride. If we simply feed on Christ, He turns the water into wine and establishes His life in us. Enjoyment of Him is it's own reward.
Gnosticism?
.
That's how I see it as well but...
That's how I see it as well but also I take into consideration the verses in Revelations 6:9-11 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." KJV
It's akin to what occurred with Abel and his blood crying out to LORD GOD. See also Leviticus 17:14.
For Liberty! http://youtu.be/GR4WYqabTxU
What If? http://youtu.be/FqAF-Alc7CM
Armed Chinese Troops in Texas! http://youtu.be/XKfuS6gfxPY
I believe this is after the tribulation
Supposed Rapture to occour first, God only knows.
There's no way to know this
There's no way to know this is for certain speaking of the verse being tribulation only. Martyrs been occurring since Christ ascension, the Apostles, followers alike to this very moment till that great and terrible Day of the Lord.
For Liberty! http://youtu.be/GR4WYqabTxU
What If? http://youtu.be/FqAF-Alc7CM
Armed Chinese Troops in Texas! http://youtu.be/XKfuS6gfxPY
to be absent from the body is
to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Jesus told the dying theif on the cross that he would be with him in paradise on that day. It can not get any clearer then that.
Oh how I wonder, oh how I worry
And I would dearly like to know
How all this squander of earthly plunder
will leave us anything to show
This is a beautiful allegory
The two thieves represent those who believe in this life and those who don't. Why were thieves used to be placed beside The Son of The Man when He was sacrificed? Because they represent us all. We are thieves who have stolen ourselves from our creator and owner by living our own lives, doing our own thing, instead of being possessed as a vessel for the Living God.
It has nothing to do with religion or "churchianity".
That's only if you choose Christ
Jesus makes it clear in the Bible. The theif on the cross believed in him that day and was forgiven.
Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
It's a confession of choice and a prayer unto salvation.
We do not choose Him
He, chooses us!
This is throughout the entire Bible!
Salvation, is of the Lord!
" In Thee O Lord do I put my trust " ~ Psalm 31:1~
They all accepted Christ on those days....
On those final days in the field they gave in to atonement.
All except for the chief judge Pharisee in Jerusalem. He chose to reject him. Later, their tongue was struck dumb.
Yes that is correct. The
Yes that is correct. The thief accepted Christ on the cross.
Oh how I wonder, oh how I worry
And I would dearly like to know
How all this squander of earthly plunder
will leave us anything to show
"Accepted"
Nowhere in the Bible is the term accepting Christ used!
It is "believed on Him"
He must "accept" us!
The thief on the cross came to believe that Jesus was who He claimed to be and God moved his heart to believe.
That thief, was one of God's chosen elect!
" In Thee O Lord do I put my trust " ~ Psalm 31:1~
Will fluffy go to puppy dog heaven when she dies?
What is the point of this? Is this really something to waste your time and your life dwelling on? Will it change your thought process or your devotion somehow? Seriously...think about it please...will you deny Christ because you now believe that it won't be an instant trip to the pearly gates? If you die tomorrow and you get called up 200 years from now, do you really think you would know the difference? You do realize that during that time you are dead right?
Sorry...lots of questions. I never understood believers who spent so much time worrying about issues that amount to absolutely nothing. I honestly can't believe I signed in for this..haha Guess I have too much real world stuff to think about and that keeps me from pondering exactly what to pack when I kick the bucket. Silly silly people.
Explanation
I went in Bible school services for three years. Some of the quotes you gave was from the old testament and before the resurrection of Jesus, the dead went to Sheol or paradise, two places.
When Jesus died, he went to hell for three days and nights, took the keys back from Satan that belong to those who wish to follow him. There is reference in the Bible in the new testament when Christ left hell he brought many with him. He forgave them there and they went walking in the streets. I would have to find it but it's the only place the Bible mentions that. These people resurrected, I don't know if they accended to heaven at that time, I would have to go look it up. Anyway, So only after, were men given the choice really to follow him or folllow self and Satan to hell after he cleaned out hell when he died. After that the Bible says in The New testament:
Hebrews 9:27
King James Version (KJV)
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
So once a person dies, they will face God, then their final destiny. God gives people their own free will to choose him and heaven eternity or their will which the Bible says leads to eternal death and hell.
Someone poseted about the resurrection of the people below in reference to the resurrection of some of the dead that Christ brought up. The Bible mentions, many followed him up from Hell or sheol.
Matthew: Matthew 27:50-54
And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”
The Greek Church
has many historical documents about people in the early church. It makes fascinating reading. For instance, the soldier who lanced the side of Jesus became a saint and martyr.
Easier said than done...
Some of the comments here make me laugh...when you get close to death remember your comments from here..and may it give you comfort before you die. It's easy to say these things when all is going well...because deep down we all think we are going to live forever...even though we know we will face death one day. I happen to believe the flesh will die and the soul will go on forever..to what end? who really knows. Food for thought..remember what Jesus prayed in the garden of Gethsemane...
Fear knocked on my door and Faith answered!
Agreed.
But hey, that picture in the corner of your comments looks like the grim reaper...ready to carry someone off to the bad side of eternity..lol!
We already know what death is like.
Before we were conceived we didn't exit; no experience, no memory, nothing. Each of us knows what that was like. And that is what we return to with death; non existence.
All other fantasies about some sort of experience after death are just mental tricks we play to deal with the reality of life being a temporary experience. And of course, since much of life was miserable back in history, the promise of a pleasant after life for living "morally" was a convenient way for church and state to encourage us to follow their rules.
Just be happy that you were lucky enough to have come into existence and had the experience. So many potential lives never were conceived and didn't get to be. Enjoy it while you can and be thankful that your life was lived during the great industrial output party paid for by the fossil fuel saving account that few generations before and generations afterward will never enjoy as the savings has mostly been squandered; we are destined to return to subsistence living once the human population collapses back to a level that is supportable with a limited resource base.
Liberty isn't given to us; it is taken by us, and if not, we will not have it.