50 votes

Gary Johnson wants a 23% national sales tax.

Gary Johnson is pushing for the so called "fair tax" which would institute a 23% national sales tax. This is something Ron has warned against over the years.

I wonder when the Libertarian party became the party of higher taxes?

I have not been a fan of Johnson, but even I was sort of surprised to hear he was pushing for a 23% national sales tax.

EDIT: For those who have requested a link. Straight from Gary's website point number 2. http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/issues/economy-and-taxes

EDIT: From Gary's website specifically referencing his support for a 23% national sales tax. http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/presidential-candidate-gary-j...

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't this tax go along with a plan to remove the IRS and most other taxes such as capital gains and other ad valorem taxes? From the time of production to final sale, aren't taxes added that raise the price to the consumer?

Not necessarily defending Gary here, but wouldn't it be worthwhile to view this tax with respect to his other policy plans?

If we could first repeal all

If we could first repeal all income and payroll taxes, I would then go for a sales tax. After all, we already have a sales tax. Sales tax often has exemptions (uncooked food) which could be retained.

If we stay with the existing system, we get both. Removing one tax seems like a step forward.

FYI Fair tax plan substitutes the income tax

The OP doesnt mention that. Many think it's better than the income tax. But since the income tax is wrong, so is any substitute.

I don't see how you could be for state rights

when pushing for national taxes.

I myself don't even like the state taxes and think it should be moved to local tax only. If you go into another town, city you either pay to come in like a toll because only until you ENTER are you costing or using anything so why should you pay for OTHER cities that you have never set foot in or drove on the roads at.

http://shelfsufficient.com - My site on getting my little family prepped for whatever might come our way.

http://growing-elite-marijuana.com - My site on growing marijuana

excellent

...reply

donvino

The Fed Reserve is nothing short of a 100% sales tax.

Every Federal Reserve note masquerading as a US dollar put into circulation... Evey "legal tender" note created out-of-thin-air is an assignment of debt. You, the taxpayer must pay. And pay. And pay.

100% of Federal Reserve notes are tacked onto the US National Debt.

If every Federal Reserve note could be redeemed for silver, what a wonderful world it would be. I see seas to green....

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

It's plenty short of that

I'm against the Fed but your statement is ridiculous. If it were true we'd all be dead and the state would have everything.

[sigh]

Who you calling dead?

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

What part is ridiculous?

Every single $ that is printed (or created digitally) is debt the moment it is created that must be paid back (with interest). If all bank loans were called in there would be zero $'s left in circulation...

.
~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

Thank you.

I agree.

That does not mean we have the truth & nothing but the truth... Yet, I believe it to be better than reading our obituaries.

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

deacon's picture

bouncing off your response

no one will ever own more than the ones
who print it
so how in this current configuration,can it ever be paid
back in full?
if we printed our own money to pay off the interest
that would be counterfeiting
on a grander scale,all nations that have a central bank
are just as screwed as we are,and for a reason also
to be in their debt is to be a slave
deacon

If we deny truth before your very eyes,then the rest of what we have to say,is of little consequence

Albeit hard to believe...

Albeit hard to believe what you & I write, we nudges closer to the truth, than not. One may stretch to find their own solace.

As for me, let me spend the evening looking for my obituary that I have prepared for just such an occasion. Hmmm. Seems just the other day, it was on my desk. Under this stack perhaps? Under here? ....

OBITUARIES "Amended Obituaries" first published in Harper's Weekly, November 15, 1902

To the Editor:

Sir, - I am approaching seventy; it is in sight; it is only three years away. Necessarily, I must go soon. It is but matter-of-course wisdom, then, that I should begin to set my worldly house in order now, so that it may be done calmly and with thoroughness, in place of waiting until the last day, when, as we have often seen, the attempt to set both houses in order at the same time has been marred by the necessity for haste and by the confusion and waste of time arising from the inability of the notary and the ecclesiastic to work together harmoniously, taking turn about and giving each other friendly assistance - not perhaps in fielding, which could hardly be expected, but at least in the minor offices of keeping game and umpiring; by consequence of which conflict of interests and absence of harmonious action a draw has frequently resulted where this ill-fortune could not have happened if the houses had been set in order one at a time and hurry avoided by beginning in season, and giving to each the amount of time fairly and justly proper to it.

In setting my earthly house in order I find it of moment that I should attend in person to one or two matters which men in my position have long had the habit of leaving wholly to others, with consequences often most regrettable. I wish to speak of only one of these matters at this time: Obituaries. Of necessity, an Obituary is a thing which cannot be so judiciously edited by any hand as by that of the subject of it. http://www.twainquotes.com/Obituaries.html

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

deacon's picture

albiet more hard to believe

i am actually understanding the words
i read,this hasn't always been the case
i'll take it as a win
deacon

If we deny truth before your very eyes,then the rest of what we have to say,is of little consequence

Discovery will take you far.

May those you meet along your way help you with what is up ahead. Uncovering. Decoding. Forming. Mending

Few will grasp the full meaning of what you write. Best wishes to those that help you along.

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

deacon's picture

you were never alive in their eyes

only a number, and that number makes them money
the only time you even have a name to them is for
punishments,other than that just a number traded
and traded and traded,while you work and toil 40+
hours a week,they are making millions from your number
ps,the state does own everything,you your veh,your house
your property,try not paying the taxes(rent) and see
just what they do own,i know the illusion sucks
deacon

If we deny truth before your very eyes,then the rest of what we have to say,is of little consequence

They don't? Young one, you

They don't?

Young one, you are both, bought and paid for.

Even as you suck air to maintain your life, your name and number is bartered and traded for.

Stay and visit for awhile, explore this site. The truth will set you free...if it doesn't cause a heart attack.

Obama and Romney want 75%

Obama and Romney want 75% national sales tax...

Green?

You could always vote for the Green Party's person.
http://www.jillstein.org

Just don't vote for Obama or Romney.

Hand out cards/literature or tracks about the Federal Reserve Bank,
To people at the mall,supermarket,church and school or anywhere else
in public.
www.vposter.blogspot.com
DO IT!It does work. Remember to put websites and QR codes on your
literature

Maybe we could just import Hugo Chavez instead

Or maybe resurrect Stalin or Chairman Mao.

As bad as it seems, it's still better from a liberty view...

...than an Income Tax because:

1. It's paid voluntarily. In other words you don't have to buy anything which is taxed. I would hope that food, medicine, healthcare and water would not be subject to a federal sales tax.

2. It presumes the fruits of you labors are 100% yours. Presently the government says IT owns 100% of what you make and IT decides how much they allow you to keep. It's wage-slavery

3. It's a user tax. Only those using that particular good or service are taxed on it.

4. EVERYBODY would be participating in funding the government (criminals, illegal aliens etc). Presently, if you earn your living by illegal means you don't pay any income tax.

5. Even illegal aliens and foreign tourists would be helping fund the government when purchasing U.S. goods or services.

That being said, 23% is an utterly ridiculous figure and I find it hard to believe a Libertarian like Johnson would advocate that high a tax.

I would make a LAW that caps any federal income tax at 10% PERMANENTLY so that that even an act of congress could not raise it.

The point being that if the federal government can't live on a 10% national sales tax, then it is simply too bloated and must be scaled back.

"We have allowed our nation to be over-taxed, over-regulated, and overrun by bureaucrats. The founders would be ashamed of us for what we are putting up with."
-Ron Paul

Gary Johnson's plan...

is to mail everyone a $200 "prebate" check every month to cover taxes on essentials (total lunacy). Maybe this is why he doesn't want to get rid of the Fed. He needs a counterfeit money press for his Fair Tax...

.
~wobbles but doesn't fall down~

again...

its 30% if you buy something for 100, you pay 30 in tax.

the easiest way to get something done isnt to change the behavior; its to change the meaning of existing behavior. like a cut isnt a cut, torture isnt torture, its enhanced interrogation. war isnt war, its kinetic military action. declaring war now appare

My ideal system for the Republic...

would be for other states to have consumption taxes like Texas and Florida - two VERY large economies. To restrict federal government growth, I would suggest implementing a policy where Big Brother has to run off a set percentage of tax revenue generated from the States. The rate would only be amendable by 2/3 majority of the States.

In a system such as this the States would be solely responsible for collecting tax revenue. For instance, California and Oklahoma could have entirely different tax rates and/or tax systems to be determined by each state's government. Whatever revenue is generated by each state, 10% - or the agreed upon percentage - of that money would go to the federal government. At a rate of 10%, that would put the government on the budget of 500% that of an average state - this could be adjusted.

This would place the federal government in the position to be forced to lobby the states - make them the beggars.

However, the tax rate of 23% suggested by the developers of the Fair Tax is designed to be revenue neutral with respect to the current budget. Johnson is just repeating the figures worked up by the creators. I wonder if the Campaign staff has considered that given Johnson's desire to reduce spending by 43% that the Fair Tax rate may be able to be reduced by 43%, as well? That would bring the rate down to around 13%.

However, I may not be addressing the entire picture because financed spending is likely included in the 43% reduction - spending that is beyond tax revenue. Nonetheless, the rate should be able to be lowered with a reduction in spending.

I would think it would be a wise decision to start out with a lower rate than what one would consider necessary to allow current spending levels to continue.

You did not just day that.....

It's paid voluntarily? Based on that logic, the income tax is also voluntary. I mean, c'mon, you don't have to work. There are soup kitchens out there that could feed you.

Where in the world did the meme come from that a sales tax is better than an income tax? Who is spreading this garbage? That's like saying that getting robbed at knife-point is better than getting robbed at gun-point. I mean, sure, from some perspective it's better, I guess, but I don't want to be robbed. When you are reduced to arguing which tax is better, they have already won.

“Although it was the middle of winter, I finally realized that, within me, summer was inextinguishable.” — Albert Camus

Gary Who?

Gary Who?

Fair tax replaces the income tax

which is a better solution.

You get every penny you earn...YOU get paid first. And you aren't forced to buy stuff. So you can save up large amounts of money fast (if you have discipline).

Gobs of corporations would come to the US because they wouldn't have income tax. Good jobs would be so aplenty, salaries would go up.

To cover the poor, everyone gets a monthly check to cover essentials. So welfare as we know it disappears.

The only problem is that the government wants to be paid first so they will never allow it.

I will say that Ron Paul's idea, no income tax and keep the consumption tax as is, is even better than the Fairtax, but the Fairtax is better than what we have now.

It's not better if it's extremely high

And 23% seems way too high to me, for a libertarian. I thought we wanted to drastically cut government. 23% sales tax replacing the income tax, which a lot of people don't pay very much for in itself, seems like it would keep the welfare/warfare state pretty well funded.

How would implementing the 'Fair Tax'

help to shrink government?

23 .... 30 .... 35 ..... 44 ...... >>>>>>

You buried the lead in the last sentence of your post

but I wasn't the one who down-voted it.

You know...if you come from

You know...if you come from the position that an income tax is needed to run the government then there is a certain appeal to the idea of flat sales tax instead. It has the advantage of taxing illegal businesses such as the drug trade...etc. No one is exempt except for people who never buy anything(the Amish maybe?...but they are exempt anyway). That being said...23% is way too much...add that to state and local sales tax and you are over 30¢ on the dollar. Nothing is affordable anymore to the average person, the hospitality service would die...with a sales tax like that there would be no tips...people would never again buy a new car or house...talk about an economy killer.

Onthe other hand...as president there is nothing he could do to implement it other than try to convince people...and that wont fly with the senate controlled by democrats(assuming it still is under the unlikely event of him being elected)